So... why is Warlock the only class other than Fighter that gets a 3rd attack? And 9th Level spells effectively. I feel so sorry for the other Martial classes
So... why is Warlock the only class other than Fighter that gets a 3rd attack? And 9th Level spells effectively. I feel so sorry for the other Martial classes
Yeah, they have super overtuned warlock now. It was good already, now it's nuts.
So... why is Warlock the only class other than Fighter that gets a 3rd attack? And 9th Level spells effectively. I feel so sorry for the other Martial classes
Because without that the Blade Warlock is inferior to the Crossbow Expert Eldritch Blast Warlock in melee.
That all Charisma casters could now do the Agonizing Blast plus Eldritch Blast combo with a one level dip is... annoying.
They are probably not sure how to give it a unique identity given the change to Pact of the Blade.
Hexblade has plenty of identity outside pact of the blade. I'd go so far as to say that it's identity is STRONGER now that it isn't tied to weapons. Now it's all spooky items/artificats. It's a lot more customizable as well.
So... why is Warlock the only class other than Fighter that gets a 3rd attack? And 9th Level spells effectively. I feel so sorry for the other Martial classes
Because it needs its to compete with Eldritch Blast. There was little reason to ever use pact weapons after 11th level since previously because it was SO outclassed by EB.
Modify Spell and Create Spell aren’t options.😢😋( I do hope WotC adds something similar to the DMG for all spell-caster classes so they can modify their own spells).
I kind of think they should just flesh out spell creation rules and let all casters do it. Only wizards can make things sounds terribly unfun. Heck give it as a way for known casters to expand their known list a bit. Like they can add their prof bonus number of spells to their known lists as long as its from spells they designed themselves. Slap it in the DMG as some kind of optional rule, but with guidelines so its not just like hey you can houserule things guys thumbs up have fun.
Am I the only one that thinks jump might be TOO good for a first level spell?
It effectively increases speed by 20 feet for a minute with a bonus action and provides verticality and hazard avoidance almost as good as misty step.
Not really. I think longstrider is still probably better though just barely, and its not in the too good category imo.
Curious why you think longstrider is better. Longstrider has a longer duration sure, but it takes an action to cast and increases speed by 10 feet less AND doesn't provide the verticality, hazard avoidance or difficult terrain ignoring capabilities. I believe you may be putting too much into the duration.
They are probably not sure how to give it a unique identity given the change to Pact of the Blade.
Hexblade has plenty of identity outside pact of the blade. I'd go so far as to say that it's identity is STRONGER now that it isn't tied to weapons. Now it's all spooky items/artificats. It's a lot more customizable as well.
So... why is Warlock the only class other than Fighter that gets a 3rd attack? And 9th Level spells effectively. I feel so sorry for the other Martial classes
Because it needs its to compete with Eldritch Blast. There was little reason to ever use pact weapons after 11th level since previously because it was SO outclassed by EB.
well in 2014 there was with darkness/devils sight and heavy weapon mastery. I'm not sure its needed in 2024 though since you get a weapon mastery and it works well with combat feats. I have not done the math though to compare 2 heavy weapon attacks with a weapon mastery, the new charge etc vs eldritch blast spam. My guess is at levels 4-10 the 2 weapon attacks are better.
So... why is Warlock the only class other than Fighter that gets a 3rd attack? And 9th Level spells effectively. I feel so sorry for the other Martial classes
Paladin probably shakes out fine, barbarian though really needs tier 3/4 love and they did not get it in this play test. Still I generally agree with the sentiment, but I have not done the math on a warlock 3 attacks feated out correctly etc..
Am I the only one that thinks jump might be TOO good for a first level spell?
It effectively increases speed by 20 feet for a minute with a bonus action and provides verticality and hazard avoidance almost as good as misty step.
Not really. I think longstrider is still probably better though just barely, and its not in the too good category imo.
Curious why you think longstrider is better. Longstrider has a longer duration sure, but it takes an action to cast and increases speed by 10 feet less AND doesn't provide the verticality, hazard avoidance or difficult terrain ignoring capabilities. I believe you may be putting too much into the duration.
I don't. The duration means I will rarely be casting it in combat and will last multiple encounters. 10 feet over 2 encounters imo is better than 20 feet over 1. The difficult terrain avoidance is something but I guess that is rare enough in our games it does not seem to be that big of a edge. And if published campaigns are a guide its not common in those either. It feels like one of those spells that if you have prepared and you happen to have difficult terrain its good to cast, not huge but good but outside of that its not that big of a deal. Feels very 1st level to me in that regard.
Am I the only one that thinks jump might be TOO good for a first level spell?
It effectively increases speed by 20 feet for a minute with a bonus action and provides verticality and hazard avoidance almost as good as misty step.
Not really. I think longstrider is still probably better though just barely, and its not in the too good category imo.
Curious why you think longstrider is better. Longstrider has a longer duration sure, but it takes an action to cast and increases speed by 10 feet less AND doesn't provide the verticality, hazard avoidance or difficult terrain ignoring capabilities. I believe you may be putting too much into the duration.
I don't. The duration means I will rarely be casting it in combat and will last multiple encounters. 10 feet over 2 encounters imo is better than 20 feet over 1. The difficult terrain avoidance is something but I guess that is rare enough in our games it does not seem to be that big of a edge. And if published campaigns are a guide its not common in those either. It feels like one of those spells that if you have prepared and you happen to have difficult terrain its good to cast, not huge but good but outside of that its not that big of a deal. Feels very 1st level to me in that regard.
Fair enough, just seems like a potential 1 minute misty step to me that doesn't use a bonus action after the first time or concentration instead just using 10 feet of movement for a lower level slot for a majority of things.
Am I the only one that thinks jump might be TOO good for a first level spell?
It effectively increases speed by 20 feet for a minute with a bonus action and provides verticality and hazard avoidance almost as good as misty step.
Not really. I think longstrider is still probably better though just barely, and its not in the too good category imo.
Curious why you think longstrider is better. Longstrider has a longer duration sure, but it takes an action to cast and increases speed by 10 feet less AND doesn't provide the verticality, hazard avoidance or difficult terrain ignoring capabilities. I believe you may be putting too much into the duration.
I don't. The duration means I will rarely be casting it in combat and will last multiple encounters. 10 feet over 2 encounters imo is better than 20 feet over 1. The difficult terrain avoidance is something but I guess that is rare enough in our games it does not seem to be that big of a edge. And if published campaigns are a guide its not common in those either. It feels like one of those spells that if you have prepared and you happen to have difficult terrain its good to cast, not huge but good but outside of that its not that big of a deal. Feels very 1st level to me in that regard.
Fair enough, just seems like a potential 1 minute misty step to me that doesn't use a bonus action after the first time or concentration instead just using 10 feet of movement for a lower level slot for a majority of things.
I guess. But in all of 5e ive probably seen misty step cast 100 times and 90 of those times were to get out of a grapple or disengage and not to get to the top of a building or to "jump" someplace. Which by he way is why I think misty step is broken, it gives the wizard a bonus action disengage/dash/grapple and restrain break. If it did not work while grappled and still provoked AoO then I think jump would be looking too good against it. As is I see misty step as a defensive spell more than a transport spell, one more defense that the wizard class does not need at their disposal.
Misty Step should either be an action to cast or it should be increased to a 3rd or 4th level spell. It is far too powerful as a 2nd level BA as it makes all the enemies that grapple/restrain practically useless.
Misty Step should either be an action to cast or it should be increased to a 3rd or 4th level spell. It is far too powerful as a 2nd level BA as it makes all the enemies that grapple/restrain practically useless.
Misty Step is fine imo. Sure, it lets wizards escape grapples, but also wizards are still pretty squishy (typically) by the time you first get it.
Wizards should be incredibly squishy and they should not be able to easily save themselves (which is what Misty Step does). They should need the big strong beefy boy in the party to come and save them, because that is where roleplay and narrative lies. Now your relationship to the other members of your party actually matters - is your character a condescending jerk to the low INT Barbarian? Well then maybe the barbarian doesn't come and save you, and now your wizard has to react to that choice - do they get mad at the barbarian? do they realize they need the barbarian and try to make amends? And how does the rest of the party react? Maybe the warlock is really good friends with the wizard and shouts at the barbarian to save the wizard. It also means Grapple & Shove have value, and STR has value and gives martials choices in combat - do I try to kill the baddie in front of me? do I risk an AoO to go save my wizard buddy? Do I try to break them out directly sacrificing damage to do so? Do I use all my resources to try to kill it before it can chomp on my wizard friend?
That is so much more interesting than "I cast Misty Step and move so I'm 60 ft away from the monster."
Wizards should be incredibly squishy and they should not be able to easily save themselves (which is what Misty Step does).
What about war mages? Wizards with the Soldier background who served in the military, or with the Mercenary Veteran background who served as part of a sellsword company? What about wizards with the Outlander background, who spent their lives studying the arcane in the evenings after spending their days clawing a living from the howling wilds? What about Criminal wizards, canny and elusive mages well used to evading capture? or Watchman/Investigator wizards that have to be able to nimbly pursue aforementioned Criminals? What about Pirate wizards who spent their formative years in the (often literally) cutthroat environment of a raider crew, working the ship when not blasting their prey's decks clean?
The idea that every single wizard is always going to be a sedentary noodle-armed popsicle stick with absolutely no physical capability whatsoever is as antiquated and unnecessary as the idea that every barbarian needs to be a meatheaded manchild with no concept of how society works and no ability to think for himself. Speaking of which...
They should need the big strong beefy boy in the party to come and save them, because that is where roleplay and narrative lies. Now your relationship to the other members of your party actually matters - is your character a condescending jerk to the low INT Barbarian? Well then maybe the barbarian doesn't come and save you, and now your wizard has to react to that choice - do they get mad at the barbarian? do they realize they need the barbarian and try to make amends? And how does the rest of the party react? Maybe the warlock is really good friends with the wizard and shouts at the barbarian to save the wizard.
What if the barbarian has an Intelligence of 14 and knows what he's doing? What if the barbarian is, in fact, a competent tactician and realizes that allowing that warg to chew Cathleen's face off over some personal beef would be highly detrimental to the team's overall odds for survival and so decides to intervene? Or - hear me out, now - what if the barbarian knows Cathleen will be fine and lets her be a competent adventurer that can take care of herself while focusing on the thing he can do best, namely turning this chimera in front of him into applesauce? And, thusly, the barbarian demonstrates trust in his adventuring partners, and when Cathleen angrily demands to know why the barbarian didn't save her, he can honestly say "Didn't need to. Knew you'd be fine. Trusted you, more than you trust me. Don't have to read books to know what your friends can do, and trust them to do their part while I do mine."
Saying Misty Step kills roleplay is just...bizarre. Any situation can spark roleplay, we don't need to stick to tired, overplayed, and frankly problematic and reductive tropes to play some role here.
It also means Grapple & Shove have value, and STR has value and gives martials choices in combat - do I try to kill the baddie in front of me? do I risk an AoO to go save my wizard buddy? Do I try to break them out directly sacrificing damage to do so? Do I use all my resources to try to kill it before it can chomp on my wizard friend?
That is so much more interesting than "I cast Misty Step and move so I'm 60 ft away from the monster."
To you, perhaps. To Cathleen, she felt pretty competent and prepared to Adventure by making sure she knew, and saved a spell slot for, an emergency escape. She knows Eric is the only reason that chimera isn't jumping on the caravan the party was contracted to protect, she can't afford to be the reason he breaks off from it and leaves it free to start roasting wagoneers. She's been having a rough time keeping up with the punishing pace the caravan's been setting and the caravaneers have been scorning her for days now, this is her chance to prove she's a powerful and dangerous wizard who can pull her weight even if she can't forced-march for four extra hours every day.
You act like the lame old "dumb barb, snotty wizard" tropes are the only thing that can give situations meaning and value. Like the players won't find ways to Play some Role and interact with each other without enforced trinity nonsense, or the DM is unable to figure out ways to provide interesting situations to test the players' mettle in different ways. Wizards being able to blink isn't going to End Roleplaying. it just means different roleplaying.
Okay, now I want to read a short story about Eric the Barbarian and Cathleen the Wizard, and their grudgingly growing friendship over a bowl of chimera applesauce...
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So... why is Warlock the only class other than Fighter that gets a 3rd attack? And 9th Level spells effectively. I feel so sorry for the other Martial classes
Yeah, they have super overtuned warlock now. It was good already, now it's nuts.
Because without that the Blade Warlock is inferior to the Crossbow Expert Eldritch Blast Warlock in melee.
That all Charisma casters could now do the Agonizing Blast plus Eldritch Blast combo with a one level dip is... annoying.
Now I'm distracted by absurdity of the EK Cha caster build with the Warlock dip and Illusionists bracers casting EB 3/rd. Thanks a bunch
Hexblade has plenty of identity outside pact of the blade. I'd go so far as to say that it's identity is STRONGER now that it isn't tied to weapons. Now it's all spooky items/artificats. It's a lot more customizable as well.
Because it needs its to compete with Eldritch Blast. There was little reason to ever use pact weapons after 11th level since previously because it was SO outclassed by EB.
Sorcerers can do it with the Quickening metamagic without needing the bracers.
Am I the only one that thinks jump might be TOO good for a first level spell?
It effectively increases speed by 20 feet for a minute with a bonus action and provides verticality and hazard avoidance almost as good as misty step.
I kind of think they should just flesh out spell creation rules and let all casters do it. Only wizards can make things sounds terribly unfun. Heck give it as a way for known casters to expand their known list a bit. Like they can add their prof bonus number of spells to their known lists as long as its from spells they designed themselves. Slap it in the DMG as some kind of optional rule, but with guidelines so its not just like hey you can houserule things guys thumbs up have fun.
Celestial would not have been my first choice for the 4th, but I do prefer it over hexblade.
Not really. I think longstrider is still probably better though just barely, and its not in the too good category imo.
Curious why you think longstrider is better. Longstrider has a longer duration sure, but it takes an action to cast and increases speed by 10 feet less AND doesn't provide the verticality, hazard avoidance or difficult terrain ignoring capabilities. I believe you may be putting too much into the duration.
well in 2014 there was with darkness/devils sight and heavy weapon mastery. I'm not sure its needed in 2024 though since you get a weapon mastery and it works well with combat feats. I have not done the math though to compare 2 heavy weapon attacks with a weapon mastery, the new charge etc vs eldritch blast spam. My guess is at levels 4-10 the 2 weapon attacks are better.
Paladin probably shakes out fine, barbarian though really needs tier 3/4 love and they did not get it in this play test. Still I generally agree with the sentiment, but I have not done the math on a warlock 3 attacks feated out correctly etc..
I don't. The duration means I will rarely be casting it in combat and will last multiple encounters. 10 feet over 2 encounters imo is better than 20 feet over 1. The difficult terrain avoidance is something but I guess that is rare enough in our games it does not seem to be that big of a edge. And if published campaigns are a guide its not common in those either. It feels like one of those spells that if you have prepared and you happen to have difficult terrain its good to cast, not huge but good but outside of that its not that big of a deal. Feels very 1st level to me in that regard.
Fair enough, just seems like a potential 1 minute misty step to me that doesn't use a bonus action after the first time or concentration instead just using 10 feet of movement for a lower level slot for a majority of things.
I guess. But in all of 5e ive probably seen misty step cast 100 times and 90 of those times were to get out of a grapple or disengage and not to get to the top of a building or to "jump" someplace. Which by he way is why I think misty step is broken, it gives the wizard a bonus action disengage/dash/grapple and restrain break. If it did not work while grappled and still provoked AoO then I think jump would be looking too good against it. As is I see misty step as a defensive spell more than a transport spell, one more defense that the wizard class does not need at their disposal.
Misty Step should either be an action to cast or it should be increased to a 3rd or 4th level spell. It is far too powerful as a 2nd level BA as it makes all the enemies that grapple/restrain practically useless.
Wizards should be incredibly squishy and they should not be able to easily save themselves (which is what Misty Step does). They should need the big strong beefy boy in the party to come and save them, because that is where roleplay and narrative lies. Now your relationship to the other members of your party actually matters - is your character a condescending jerk to the low INT Barbarian? Well then maybe the barbarian doesn't come and save you, and now your wizard has to react to that choice - do they get mad at the barbarian? do they realize they need the barbarian and try to make amends? And how does the rest of the party react? Maybe the warlock is really good friends with the wizard and shouts at the barbarian to save the wizard. It also means Grapple & Shove have value, and STR has value and gives martials choices in combat - do I try to kill the baddie in front of me? do I risk an AoO to go save my wizard buddy? Do I try to break them out directly sacrificing damage to do so? Do I use all my resources to try to kill it before it can chomp on my wizard friend?
That is so much more interesting than "I cast Misty Step and move so I'm 60 ft away from the monster."
What about war mages? Wizards with the Soldier background who served in the military, or with the Mercenary Veteran background who served as part of a sellsword company? What about wizards with the Outlander background, who spent their lives studying the arcane in the evenings after spending their days clawing a living from the howling wilds? What about Criminal wizards, canny and elusive mages well used to evading capture? or Watchman/Investigator wizards that have to be able to nimbly pursue aforementioned Criminals? What about Pirate wizards who spent their formative years in the (often literally) cutthroat environment of a raider crew, working the ship when not blasting their prey's decks clean?
The idea that every single wizard is always going to be a sedentary noodle-armed popsicle stick with absolutely no physical capability whatsoever is as antiquated and unnecessary as the idea that every barbarian needs to be a meatheaded manchild with no concept of how society works and no ability to think for himself. Speaking of which...
What if the barbarian has an Intelligence of 14 and knows what he's doing? What if the barbarian is, in fact, a competent tactician and realizes that allowing that warg to chew Cathleen's face off over some personal beef would be highly detrimental to the team's overall odds for survival and so decides to intervene? Or - hear me out, now - what if the barbarian knows Cathleen will be fine and lets her be a competent adventurer that can take care of herself while focusing on the thing he can do best, namely turning this chimera in front of him into applesauce? And, thusly, the barbarian demonstrates trust in his adventuring partners, and when Cathleen angrily demands to know why the barbarian didn't save her, he can honestly say "Didn't need to. Knew you'd be fine. Trusted you, more than you trust me. Don't have to read books to know what your friends can do, and trust them to do their part while I do mine."
Saying Misty Step kills roleplay is just...bizarre. Any situation can spark roleplay, we don't need to stick to tired, overplayed, and frankly problematic and reductive tropes to play some role here.
To you, perhaps. To Cathleen, she felt pretty competent and prepared to Adventure by making sure she knew, and saved a spell slot for, an emergency escape. She knows Eric is the only reason that chimera isn't jumping on the caravan the party was contracted to protect, she can't afford to be the reason he breaks off from it and leaves it free to start roasting wagoneers. She's been having a rough time keeping up with the punishing pace the caravan's been setting and the caravaneers have been scorning her for days now, this is her chance to prove she's a powerful and dangerous wizard who can pull her weight even if she can't forced-march for four extra hours every day.
You act like the lame old "dumb barb, snotty wizard" tropes are the only thing that can give situations meaning and value. Like the players won't find ways to Play some Role and interact with each other without enforced trinity nonsense, or the DM is unable to figure out ways to provide interesting situations to test the players' mettle in different ways. Wizards being able to blink isn't going to End Roleplaying. it just means different roleplaying.
Please do not contact or message me.
Okay, now I want to read a short story about Eric the Barbarian and Cathleen the Wizard, and their grudgingly growing friendship over a bowl of chimera applesauce...