Consider making a table or chart showing the targeted capabilities of Monk, then work backward to design the abilities to meet those goals. For example, what DPR should a Monk be able to achieve? Sharing your vision gives insight into your design.
This is not the Monk I want because of few places of doubling down of the fixes.
Improved HP, cool
Improved Unarmored Defense, cool
Improved very flexible Martial Arts, very cool. This is looking like pretty good. Maybe a little strong, but I’m liking it.
More DP, I’ve never agreed that monk needed more, but the amount you added isn’t ridiculous, so it’s fine. Also why did Step of the Wind lose its jump bonus.
Wait Deflect Attack, I’ve never been a fan of this idea, but could accept it if you didn’t already give them improved HP and AC. It shouldn’t have reaction damage mitigation and improved hp. If more people want deflect attack, then there is no reason to not have a d8 hit die.
Improved Unarmored movement at 4th is great IMO, but you should merge both slow fall and it into one feature at 4th. They are both mobility features and since they are both being given at 4th making them one feature just makes it cleaner.
I’ve been around too long to accept Stunning Strike just being removed. If the complaint is it is too strong the limit it to once per short rest or once per long rest. A monk without some form of Stunning Strike is not a Monk I want to play. Your new Mystic Strikes are okay, but should all be Con or Wis saves. You could make an argument for other mental stat saves, but the Dex save on Stagger makes no sense.
Extra Attack at 11 Breaks 5e Monk design. They are getting a subclass feature at this level. Their tier 3 damage boost should come from that subclass feature.
You just gave them Extra Attack at 11th then they get another 1d6 per attack at 13th. Seems a lot of too strong. If Extra attack isn’t a thing and Subclasses fail to improve t3 damage at 11th then this feature makes sense.
I feel like your Perfect Self Con boost came out of nowhere, but it’s not bad, it just feels weird.
Obviously I wouldn’t know without seeing this at a table, but reading it this is too strong. This is what happens when you combine all the good ideas into one design.
your dps feelings aren't backed by the numbers. also monks don't often get damage boosts at level 11 from subclasses. And, forcing subclasses to boost damage at certain levels doesnt seem to be a consistent part of 5e or onednd design.
Monk with extra attack, and a d6 die still won't be the highest dps martial class in one dnd. Barbarian gets +7 to attack by 20, brawler gets +6 ranger gets +5attack+5accurcay, paladin gets +4.5, Warlock gets extra attack at 11. Not to mention features, feats, fighting styles, and spells.
If anything, I'm pretty sure monk is probably still not great at dps with these changes. But its probably good enough not to be an obvious problem.
It’s how the monk class is designed. Since WotC decided to move away from standardized levels across all classes it is 5e design and onednd design. Monks get a subclass feature at 11th. I didn’t do that, WotC did that. Rangers are the same. Gwar you threw out a bunch of numbers and did no math. Why? I’ve explained my numbers to you multiple times, but you don’t want listen, because you just want your way. You want more attacks so you can power game and figure how to make that deal even more damage. That’s fine, but don’t act like my reasonable suggestion of just adding more controllable damage is somehow unreasonable. This monk has 5 attacks at level 11. At level 13 it adds another 1d6 to all those attacks. If this was designed more like 5e monk and there was no Extra Attack at 11th it then the 1d6 at 13th would be fine, but it makes more sense to me to have the subclasses add damage at 11th so the monk isn’t waiting 2 levels to catch back up with everyone else. Your +7 Barbarian only has two attack per round. Your plus +6 Brawler might give it a run, but probably won’t because they don’t have an additional 1d6 psychic damage on every hit. This monk is overpowered. And giving the monk extra attack at 11th breaks 5e game design, because they are getting a subclass feature at 11th. There is nothing stopping WotC from changing their normal design, but I’ll let them do that.
First off, 5e monk design was flawed. 2nd 5er is different from 5e, in that most martials have increased dpr and versatility, those both mean things must be different.
no its not how the monk class was designed. Monk subclasses do not usually give damage bonuses at 11. And monk fails at t3-t4 dpr in 5e, and even more in 5er
Ascendant dragon gives frighten and resistance
drunken master gives cancel of disadvantage
four elements gives
shadow gives a bonus attack on teleport, for a total of 3 attacks.
elements gives flight
death gives stay up at zero hp
open hand gave tranquility, now gives Ki less dash
sun soul gives aoe, lower single target.
mercy gives Ki discount and heals.
in fact only Astral and kensei give damage boosts at 11. So no monk nor its subclasses are designed to give a dpr boost at 11. Subclasses each follow their own design imperatives.
The numbers of other classes DPR right now are very beyond monk right now, they are mostly beyond 5e power attack for the best classes. EK is pulling 120+ brawler is about 100-110, Berserker is like 100. I don't even want to do the math on warlock, it will probably depress me. I already know monk with 5 attacks can not compete with that. do I need to say (5*12.5)*(accuracy) wont come close to that? fine, 62.5*.7=43.5 dpr, with 1d6 psychic. 3.5+6.5+6=16*5=80*.7= 56. even with advantage its still not close. multiply the previous by .9 instead. The highest dps from a subclass is Astral, with one attack, and one bonus die. That one gets close to the other classes, Its the only one, and only if it has advantage.
Also, don't make assumptions about my desire or intent. Just because I disagree with your perspective that extra attacks are impossible to balance, doesnt mean I have some desire to powergame. Monk would not be capable of power gaming even with an extra attack in 5er. Also, if you read my feedback, I actually said I would prefer a different means of increasing t3 dps, not because extra attack is OP, but because its not that interesting. Some one can disagree with you without ill intent.
This is not the Monk I want because of few places of doubling down of the fixes.
Improved HP, cool
Improved Unarmored Defense, cool
Improved very flexible Martial Arts, very cool. This is looking like pretty good. Maybe a little strong, but I’m liking it.
More DP, I’ve never agreed that monk needed more, but the amount you added isn’t ridiculous, so it’s fine. Also why did Step of the Wind lose its jump bonus.
Wait Deflect Attack, I’ve never been a fan of this idea, but could accept it if you didn’t already give them improved HP and AC. It shouldn’t have reaction damage mitigation and improved hp. If more people want deflect attack, then there is no reason to not have a d8 hit die.
Improved Unarmored movement at 4th is great IMO, but you should merge both slow fall and it into one feature at 4th. They are both mobility features and since they are both being given at 4th making them one feature just makes it cleaner.
I’ve been around too long to accept Stunning Strike just being removed. If the complaint is it is too strong the limit it to once per short rest or once per long rest. A monk without some form of Stunning Strike is not a Monk I want to play. Your new Mystic Strikes are okay, but should all be Con or Wis saves. You could make an argument for other mental stat saves, but the Dex save on Stagger makes no sense.
Extra Attack at 11 Breaks 5e Monk design. They are getting a subclass feature at this level. Their tier 3 damage boost should come from that subclass feature.
You just gave them Extra Attack at 11th then they get another 1d6 per attack at 13th. Seems a lot of too strong. If Extra attack isn’t a thing and Subclasses fail to improve t3 damage at 11th then this feature makes sense.
I feel like your Perfect Self Con boost came out of nowhere, but it’s not bad, it just feels weird.
Obviously I wouldn’t know without seeing this at a table, but reading it this is too strong. This is what happens when you combine all the good ideas into one design.
your dps feelings aren't backed by the numbers. also monks don't often get damage boosts at level 11 from subclasses. And, forcing subclasses to boost damage at certain levels doesnt seem to be a consistent part of 5e or onednd design.
Monk with extra attack, and a d6 die still won't be the highest dps martial class in one dnd. Barbarian gets +7 to attack by 20, brawler gets +6 ranger gets +5attack+5accurcay, paladin gets +4.5, Warlock gets extra attack at 11. Not to mention features, feats, fighting styles, and spells.
If anything, I'm pretty sure monk is probably still not great at dps with these changes. But its probably good enough not to be an obvious problem.
It’s how the monk class is designed. Since WotC decided to move away from standardized levels across all classes it is 5e design and onednd design. Monks get a subclass feature at 11th. I didn’t do that, WotC did that. Rangers are the same. Gwar you threw out a bunch of numbers and did no math. Why? I’ve explained my numbers to you multiple times, but you don’t want listen, because you just want your way. You want more attacks so you can power game and figure how to make that deal even more damage. That’s fine, but don’t act like my reasonable suggestion of just adding more controllable damage is somehow unreasonable. This monk has 5 attacks at level 11. At level 13 it adds another 1d6 to all those attacks. If this was designed more like 5e monk and there was no Extra Attack at 11th it then the 1d6 at 13th would be fine, but it makes more sense to me to have the subclasses add damage at 11th so the monk isn’t waiting 2 levels to catch back up with everyone else. Your +7 Barbarian only has two attack per round. Your plus +6 Brawler might give it a run, but probably won’t because they don’t have an additional 1d6 psychic damage on every hit. This monk is overpowered. And giving the monk extra attack at 11th breaks 5e game design, because they are getting a subclass feature at 11th. There is nothing stopping WotC from changing their normal design, but I’ll let them do that.
First off, 5e monk design was flawed. 2nd 5er is different from 5e, in that most martials have increased dpr and versatility, those both mean things must be different.
no its not how the monk class was designed. Monk subclasses do not usually give damage bonuses at 11. And monk fails at t3-t4 dpr in 5e, and even more in 5er
Ascendant dragon gives frighten and resistance
drunken master gives cancel of disadvantage
four elements gives
shadow gives a bonus attack on teleport, for a total of 3 attacks.
elements gives flight
death gives stay up at zero hp
open hand gave tranquility, now gives Ki less dash
sun soul gives aoe, lower single target.
mercy gives Ki discount and heals.
in fact only Astral and kensei give damage boosts at 11. So no monk nor its subclasses are designed to give a dpr boost at 11. Subclasses each follow their own design imperatives.
The numbers of other classes DPR right now are very beyond monk right now, they are mostly beyond 5e power attack for the best classes. EK is pulling 120+ brawler is about 100-110, Berserker is like 100. I don't even want to do the math on warlock, it will probably depress me. I already know monk with 5 attacks can not compete with that. do I need to say (5*12.5)*(accuracy) wont come close to that? fine, 62.5*.7=43.5 dpr, with 1d6 psychic. 3.5+6.5+6=16*5=80*.7= 56. even with advantage its still not close. multiply the previous by .9 instead. The highest dps from a subclass is Astral, with one attack, and one bonus die. That one gets close to the other classes, Its the only one, and only if it has advantage.
Also, don't make assumptions about my desire or intent. Just because I disagree with your perspective that extra attacks are impossible to balance, doesnt mean I have some desire to powergame. Monk would not be capable of power gaming even with an extra attack in 5er. Also, if you read my feedback, I actually said I would prefer a different means of increasing t3 dps, not because extra attack is OP, but because its not that interesting. Some one can disagree with you without ill intent.
They are designed to get a subclass at 11th. Period.
I’m stating that since this design is cemented, then those subclasses SHOULD improve damage. I’ve never said they did increase damage. Technically some do. Which you yourself already admitted. The easiest way to fix monks late game DPR is to ensure that all subclasses do (and improve the ones that already do), otherwise they need to move subclass from 11th, which is a bigger backwards compatibility issue.
Also I’m going to keep judging your desire and intent when you keep pushing the power gamers dream. More attacks!!! Like I said I’m okay with that being your play style (or not), but stop acting like there is not an easier way to increase damage and maintain balance. One that I’ve already presented to you.
This is not the Monk I want because of few places of doubling down of the fixes.
Improved HP, cool
Improved Unarmored Defense, cool
Improved very flexible Martial Arts, very cool. This is looking like pretty good. Maybe a little strong, but I’m liking it.
More DP, I’ve never agreed that monk needed more, but the amount you added isn’t ridiculous, so it’s fine. Also why did Step of the Wind lose its jump bonus.
Wait Deflect Attack, I’ve never been a fan of this idea, but could accept it if you didn’t already give them improved HP and AC. It shouldn’t have reaction damage mitigation and improved hp. If more people want deflect attack, then there is no reason to not have a d8 hit die.
Improved Unarmored movement at 4th is great IMO, but you should merge both slow fall and it into one feature at 4th. They are both mobility features and since they are both being given at 4th making them one feature just makes it cleaner.
I’ve been around too long to accept Stunning Strike just being removed. If the complaint is it is too strong the limit it to once per short rest or once per long rest. A monk without some form of Stunning Strike is not a Monk I want to play. Your new Mystic Strikes are okay, but should all be Con or Wis saves. You could make an argument for other mental stat saves, but the Dex save on Stagger makes no sense.
Extra Attack at 11 Breaks 5e Monk design. They are getting a subclass feature at this level. Their tier 3 damage boost should come from that subclass feature.
You just gave them Extra Attack at 11th then they get another 1d6 per attack at 13th. Seems a lot of too strong. If Extra attack isn’t a thing and Subclasses fail to improve t3 damage at 11th then this feature makes sense.
I feel like your Perfect Self Con boost came out of nowhere, but it’s not bad, it just feels weird.
Obviously I wouldn’t know without seeing this at a table, but reading it this is too strong. This is what happens when you combine all the good ideas into one design.
your dps feelings aren't backed by the numbers. also monks don't often get damage boosts at level 11 from subclasses. And, forcing subclasses to boost damage at certain levels doesnt seem to be a consistent part of 5e or onednd design.
Monk with extra attack, and a d6 die still won't be the highest dps martial class in one dnd. Barbarian gets +7 to attack by 20, brawler gets +6 ranger gets +5attack+5accurcay, paladin gets +4.5, Warlock gets extra attack at 11. Not to mention features, feats, fighting styles, and spells.
If anything, I'm pretty sure monk is probably still not great at dps with these changes. But its probably good enough not to be an obvious problem.
It’s how the monk class is designed. Since WotC decided to move away from standardized levels across all classes it is 5e design and onednd design. Monks get a subclass feature at 11th. I didn’t do that, WotC did that. Rangers are the same. Gwar you threw out a bunch of numbers and did no math. Why? I’ve explained my numbers to you multiple times, but you don’t want listen, because you just want your way. You want more attacks so you can power game and figure how to make that deal even more damage. That’s fine, but don’t act like my reasonable suggestion of just adding more controllable damage is somehow unreasonable. This monk has 5 attacks at level 11. At level 13 it adds another 1d6 to all those attacks. If this was designed more like 5e monk and there was no Extra Attack at 11th it then the 1d6 at 13th would be fine, but it makes more sense to me to have the subclasses add damage at 11th so the monk isn’t waiting 2 levels to catch back up with everyone else. Your +7 Barbarian only has two attack per round. Your plus +6 Brawler might give it a run, but probably won’t because they don’t have an additional 1d6 psychic damage on every hit. This monk is overpowered. And giving the monk extra attack at 11th breaks 5e game design, because they are getting a subclass feature at 11th. There is nothing stopping WotC from changing their normal design, but I’ll let them do that.
First off, 5e monk design was flawed. 2nd 5er is different from 5e, in that most martials have increased dpr and versatility, those both mean things must be different.
no its not how the monk class was designed. Monk subclasses do not usually give damage bonuses at 11. And monk fails at t3-t4 dpr in 5e, and even more in 5er
Ascendant dragon gives frighten and resistance
drunken master gives cancel of disadvantage
four elements gives
shadow gives a bonus attack on teleport, for a total of 3 attacks.
elements gives flight
death gives stay up at zero hp
open hand gave tranquility, now gives Ki less dash
sun soul gives aoe, lower single target.
mercy gives Ki discount and heals.
in fact only Astral and kensei give damage boosts at 11. So no monk nor its subclasses are designed to give a dpr boost at 11. Subclasses each follow their own design imperatives.
The numbers of other classes DPR right now are very beyond monk right now, they are mostly beyond 5e power attack for the best classes. EK is pulling 120+ brawler is about 100-110, Berserker is like 100. I don't even want to do the math on warlock, it will probably depress me. I already know monk with 5 attacks can not compete with that. do I need to say (5*12.5)*(accuracy) wont come close to that? fine, 62.5*.7=43.5 dpr, with 1d6 psychic. 3.5+6.5+6=16*5=80*.7= 56. even with advantage its still not close. multiply the previous by .9 instead. The highest dps from a subclass is Astral, with one attack, and one bonus die. That one gets close to the other classes, Its the only one, and only if it has advantage.
Also, don't make assumptions about my desire or intent. Just because I disagree with your perspective that extra attacks are impossible to balance, doesnt mean I have some desire to powergame. Monk would not be capable of power gaming even with an extra attack in 5er. Also, if you read my feedback, I actually said I would prefer a different means of increasing t3 dps, not because extra attack is OP, but because its not that interesting. Some one can disagree with you without ill intent.
They are designed to get a subclass at 11th. Period.
I’m stating that since this design is cemented, then those subclasses SHOULD improve damage. I’ve never said they did increase damage. Technically some do. Which you yourself already admitted. The easiest way to fix monks late game DPR is to ensure that all subclasses do (and improve the ones that already do), otherwise they need to move subclass from 11th, which is a bigger backwards compatibility issue.
Also I’m going to keep judging your desire and intent when you keep pushing the power gamers dream. More attacks!!! Like I said I’m okay with that being your play style (or not), but stop acting like there is not an easier way to increase damage and maintain balance. One that I’ve already presented to you.
so, its easier to change the subclass design of 8/10 subclasses, most of which do not appear in the phb (and all you can change is phb), in 8 different ways, than to give monk baseline the feature it needs...
ok.
Also I can't stop you from making baseless assumptions based on emotions, but they are still wrong. This is my words before we even had this exchange,
"Style choice
I don't love the extra attack as means of increasing dps. Nothing wrong with it mechanicly, its just kinda boring/overdone.". Its completely illogical to think I am pushing for more attacks, when I literally said I'd prefer something else. And there is no need to debate extra attack complexity, we have already agreed to disagree. I simply don't believe extra attack is hard to balance or math, or that it is a sacred cow. Its a bad idea to assume everyone shares your personal opinions. "We all know X," No, we don't all necessarily know or believe that.
This is not the Monk I want because of few places of doubling down of the fixes.
Improved HP, cool
Improved Unarmored Defense, cool
Improved very flexible Martial Arts, very cool. This is looking like pretty good. Maybe a little strong, but I’m liking it.
More DP, I’ve never agreed that monk needed more, but the amount you added isn’t ridiculous, so it’s fine. Also why did Step of the Wind lose its jump bonus.
Wait Deflect Attack, I’ve never been a fan of this idea, but could accept it if you didn’t already give them improved HP and AC. It shouldn’t have reaction damage mitigation and improved hp. If more people want deflect attack, then there is no reason to not have a d8 hit die.
Improved Unarmored movement at 4th is great IMO, but you should merge both slow fall and it into one feature at 4th. They are both mobility features and since they are both being given at 4th making them one feature just makes it cleaner.
I’ve been around too long to accept Stunning Strike just being removed. If the complaint is it is too strong the limit it to once per short rest or once per long rest. A monk without some form of Stunning Strike is not a Monk I want to play. Your new Mystic Strikes are okay, but should all be Con or Wis saves. You could make an argument for other mental stat saves, but the Dex save on Stagger makes no sense.
Extra Attack at 11 Breaks 5e Monk design. They are getting a subclass feature at this level. Their tier 3 damage boost should come from that subclass feature.
You just gave them Extra Attack at 11th then they get another 1d6 per attack at 13th. Seems a lot of too strong. If Extra attack isn’t a thing and Subclasses fail to improve t3 damage at 11th then this feature makes sense.
I feel like your Perfect Self Con boost came out of nowhere, but it’s not bad, it just feels weird.
Obviously I wouldn’t know without seeing this at a table, but reading it this is too strong. This is what happens when you combine all the good ideas into one design.
your dps feelings aren't backed by the numbers. also monks don't often get damage boosts at level 11 from subclasses. And, forcing subclasses to boost damage at certain levels doesnt seem to be a consistent part of 5e or onednd design.
Monk with extra attack, and a d6 die still won't be the highest dps martial class in one dnd. Barbarian gets +7 to attack by 20, brawler gets +6 ranger gets +5attack+5accurcay, paladin gets +4.5, Warlock gets extra attack at 11. Not to mention features, feats, fighting styles, and spells.
If anything, I'm pretty sure monk is probably still not great at dps with these changes. But its probably good enough not to be an obvious problem.
It’s how the monk class is designed. Since WotC decided to move away from standardized levels across all classes it is 5e design and onednd design. Monks get a subclass feature at 11th. I didn’t do that, WotC did that. Rangers are the same. Gwar you threw out a bunch of numbers and did no math. Why? I’ve explained my numbers to you multiple times, but you don’t want listen, because you just want your way. You want more attacks so you can power game and figure how to make that deal even more damage. That’s fine, but don’t act like my reasonable suggestion of just adding more controllable damage is somehow unreasonable. This monk has 5 attacks at level 11. At level 13 it adds another 1d6 to all those attacks. If this was designed more like 5e monk and there was no Extra Attack at 11th it then the 1d6 at 13th would be fine, but it makes more sense to me to have the subclasses add damage at 11th so the monk isn’t waiting 2 levels to catch back up with everyone else. Your +7 Barbarian only has two attack per round. Your plus +6 Brawler might give it a run, but probably won’t because they don’t have an additional 1d6 psychic damage on every hit. This monk is overpowered. And giving the monk extra attack at 11th breaks 5e game design, because they are getting a subclass feature at 11th. There is nothing stopping WotC from changing their normal design, but I’ll let them do that.
First off, 5e monk design was flawed. 2nd 5er is different from 5e, in that most martials have increased dpr and versatility, those both mean things must be different.
no its not how the monk class was designed. Monk subclasses do not usually give damage bonuses at 11. And monk fails at t3-t4 dpr in 5e, and even more in 5er
Ascendant dragon gives frighten and resistance
drunken master gives cancel of disadvantage
four elements gives
shadow gives a bonus attack on teleport, for a total of 3 attacks.
elements gives flight
death gives stay up at zero hp
open hand gave tranquility, now gives Ki less dash
sun soul gives aoe, lower single target.
mercy gives Ki discount and heals.
in fact only Astral and kensei give damage boosts at 11. So no monk nor its subclasses are designed to give a dpr boost at 11. Subclasses each follow their own design imperatives.
The numbers of other classes DPR right now are very beyond monk right now, they are mostly beyond 5e power attack for the best classes. EK is pulling 120+ brawler is about 100-110, Berserker is like 100. I don't even want to do the math on warlock, it will probably depress me. I already know monk with 5 attacks can not compete with that. do I need to say (5*12.5)*(accuracy) wont come close to that? fine, 62.5*.7=43.5 dpr, with 1d6 psychic. 3.5+6.5+6=16*5=80*.7= 56. even with advantage its still not close. multiply the previous by .9 instead. The highest dps from a subclass is Astral, with one attack, and one bonus die. That one gets close to the other classes, Its the only one, and only if it has advantage.
Also, don't make assumptions about my desire or intent. Just because I disagree with your perspective that extra attacks are impossible to balance, doesnt mean I have some desire to powergame. Monk would not be capable of power gaming even with an extra attack in 5er. Also, if you read my feedback, I actually said I would prefer a different means of increasing t3 dps, not because extra attack is OP, but because its not that interesting. Some one can disagree with you without ill intent.
They are designed to get a subclass at 11th. Period.
I’m stating that since this design is cemented, then those subclasses SHOULD improve damage. I’ve never said they did increase damage. Technically some do. Which you yourself already admitted. The easiest way to fix monks late game DPR is to ensure that all subclasses do (and improve the ones that already do), otherwise they need to move subclass from 11th, which is a bigger backwards compatibility issue.
Also I’m going to keep judging your desire and intent when you keep pushing the power gamers dream. More attacks!!! Like I said I’m okay with that being your play style (or not), but stop acting like there is not an easier way to increase damage and maintain balance. One that I’ve already presented to you.
so, its easier to change the subclass design of 8/10 subclasses, most of which do not appear in the phb (and all you can change is phb), in 8 different ways, than to give monk baseline the feature it needs...
ok.
Also I can't stop you from making baseless assumptions based on emotions, but they are still wrong. This is my words before we even had this exchange,
"Style choice
I don't love the extra attack as means of increasing dps. Nothing wrong with it mechanicly, its just kinda boring/overdone.". Its completely illogical to think I am pushing for more attacks, when I literally said I'd prefer something else. And there is no need to debate extra attack complexity, we have already agreed to disagree. I simply don't believe extra attack is hard to balance or math, or that it is a sacred cow. Its a bad idea to assume everyone shares your personal opinions. "We all know X," No, we don't all necessarily know or believe that.
If you make the base class incompatible with the older subclasses you end up with the same problem. You state you don’t love extra Attack as a means of increasing dps, but I could literally pull up multiple post across multiple threads of you promoting and pushing for Extra Attack even when other options are being given. In this thread you jumped in and immediately attacked my opinion of extra attack claiming it isn’t backed by numbers, when you know it is backed numbers. If every time I see someone they are drinking alcohol I don’t care if they say, “I don’t drink that often,” or “I really don’t like the taste of alcohol,” I’m going to judge their actions not their statement.
I have tried to let it simmer in my mind for a couple of days and just accept that it is the change people wanted, but I hate that these two abilities do the same thing. Please help me understand why!!!!!
Disciple Abilities Step of the Wind - you can spend 1 DP to Dash and Disengage as a bonus, and you can jump up to 30ft vertically or horizontally until the end of your turn, this expends your movement as normal.
Unarmored Movement Starting at 2nd level, your speed increases by +10 feet while you are not wearing armor or wielding a shield. You can take the Dash or Disengage action as a bonus action on your turn.
Step of the Wind allows you to use both at once. It’s good idea - stops it being just a worse cunning action. The 30ft vertical jump is also very nice.
This is not the Monk I want because of few places of doubling down of the fixes.
Improved HP, cool
Improved Unarmored Defense, cool
Improved very flexible Martial Arts, very cool. This is looking like pretty good. Maybe a little strong, but I’m liking it.
More DP, I’ve never agreed that monk needed more, but the amount you added isn’t ridiculous, so it’s fine. Also why did Step of the Wind lose its jump bonus.
Wait Deflect Attack, I’ve never been a fan of this idea, but could accept it if you didn’t already give them improved HP and AC. It shouldn’t have reaction damage mitigation and improved hp. If more people want deflect attack, then there is no reason to not have a d8 hit die.
Improved Unarmored movement at 4th is great IMO, but you should merge both slow fall and it into one feature at 4th. They are both mobility features and since they are both being given at 4th making them one feature just makes it cleaner.
I’ve been around too long to accept Stunning Strike just being removed. If the complaint is it is too strong the limit it to once per short rest or once per long rest. A monk without some form of Stunning Strike is not a Monk I want to play. Your new Mystic Strikes are okay, but should all be Con or Wis saves. You could make an argument for other mental stat saves, but the Dex save on Stagger makes no sense.
Extra Attack at 11 Breaks 5e Monk design. They are getting a subclass feature at this level. Their tier 3 damage boost should come from that subclass feature.
You just gave them Extra Attack at 11th then they get another 1d6 per attack at 13th. Seems a lot of too strong. If Extra attack isn’t a thing and Subclasses fail to improve t3 damage at 11th then this feature makes sense.
I feel like your Perfect Self Con boost came out of nowhere, but it’s not bad, it just feels weird.
Obviously I wouldn’t know without seeing this at a table, but reading it this is too strong. This is what happens when you combine all the good ideas into one design.
your dps feelings aren't backed by the numbers. also monks don't often get damage boosts at level 11 from subclasses. And, forcing subclasses to boost damage at certain levels doesnt seem to be a consistent part of 5e or onednd design.
Monk with extra attack, and a d6 die still won't be the highest dps martial class in one dnd. Barbarian gets +7 to attack by 20, brawler gets +6 ranger gets +5attack+5accurcay, paladin gets +4.5, Warlock gets extra attack at 11. Not to mention features, feats, fighting styles, and spells.
If anything, I'm pretty sure monk is probably still not great at dps with these changes. But its probably good enough not to be an obvious problem.
It’s how the monk class is designed. Since WotC decided to move away from standardized levels across all classes it is 5e design and onednd design. Monks get a subclass feature at 11th. I didn’t do that, WotC did that. Rangers are the same. Gwar you threw out a bunch of numbers and did no math. Why? I’ve explained my numbers to you multiple times, but you don’t want listen, because you just want your way. You want more attacks so you can power game and figure how to make that deal even more damage. That’s fine, but don’t act like my reasonable suggestion of just adding more controllable damage is somehow unreasonable. This monk has 5 attacks at level 11. At level 13 it adds another 1d6 to all those attacks. If this was designed more like 5e monk and there was no Extra Attack at 11th it then the 1d6 at 13th would be fine, but it makes more sense to me to have the subclasses add damage at 11th so the monk isn’t waiting 2 levels to catch back up with everyone else. Your +7 Barbarian only has two attack per round. Your plus +6 Brawler might give it a run, but probably won’t because they don’t have an additional 1d6 psychic damage on every hit. This monk is overpowered. And giving the monk extra attack at 11th breaks 5e game design, because they are getting a subclass feature at 11th. There is nothing stopping WotC from changing their normal design, but I’ll let them do that.
First off, 5e monk design was flawed. 2nd 5er is different from 5e, in that most martials have increased dpr and versatility, those both mean things must be different.
no its not how the monk class was designed. Monk subclasses do not usually give damage bonuses at 11. And monk fails at t3-t4 dpr in 5e, and even more in 5er
Ascendant dragon gives frighten and resistance
drunken master gives cancel of disadvantage
four elements gives
shadow gives a bonus attack on teleport, for a total of 3 attacks.
elements gives flight
death gives stay up at zero hp
open hand gave tranquility, now gives Ki less dash
sun soul gives aoe, lower single target.
mercy gives Ki discount and heals.
in fact only Astral and kensei give damage boosts at 11. So no monk nor its subclasses are designed to give a dpr boost at 11. Subclasses each follow their own design imperatives.
The numbers of other classes DPR right now are very beyond monk right now, they are mostly beyond 5e power attack for the best classes. EK is pulling 120+ brawler is about 100-110, Berserker is like 100. I don't even want to do the math on warlock, it will probably depress me. I already know monk with 5 attacks can not compete with that. do I need to say (5*12.5)*(accuracy) wont come close to that? fine, 62.5*.7=43.5 dpr, with 1d6 psychic. 3.5+6.5+6=16*5=80*.7= 56. even with advantage its still not close. multiply the previous by .9 instead. The highest dps from a subclass is Astral, with one attack, and one bonus die. That one gets close to the other classes, Its the only one, and only if it has advantage.
Also, don't make assumptions about my desire or intent. Just because I disagree with your perspective that extra attacks are impossible to balance, doesnt mean I have some desire to powergame. Monk would not be capable of power gaming even with an extra attack in 5er. Also, if you read my feedback, I actually said I would prefer a different means of increasing t3 dps, not because extra attack is OP, but because its not that interesting. Some one can disagree with you without ill intent.
They are designed to get a subclass at 11th. Period.
I’m stating that since this design is cemented, then those subclasses SHOULD improve damage. I’ve never said they did increase damage. Technically some do. Which you yourself already admitted. The easiest way to fix monks late game DPR is to ensure that all subclasses do (and improve the ones that already do), otherwise they need to move subclass from 11th, which is a bigger backwards compatibility issue.
Also I’m going to keep judging your desire and intent when you keep pushing the power gamers dream. More attacks!!! Like I said I’m okay with that being your play style (or not), but stop acting like there is not an easier way to increase damage and maintain balance. One that I’ve already presented to you.
so, its easier to change the subclass design of 8/10 subclasses, most of which do not appear in the phb (and all you can change is phb), in 8 different ways, than to give monk baseline the feature it needs...
ok.
Also I can't stop you from making baseless assumptions based on emotions, but they are still wrong. This is my words before we even had this exchange,
"Style choice
I don't love the extra attack as means of increasing dps. Nothing wrong with it mechanicly, its just kinda boring/overdone.". Its completely illogical to think I am pushing for more attacks, when I literally said I'd prefer something else. And there is no need to debate extra attack complexity, we have already agreed to disagree. I simply don't believe extra attack is hard to balance or math, or that it is a sacred cow. Its a bad idea to assume everyone shares your personal opinions. "We all know X," No, we don't all necessarily know or believe that.
If you make the base class incompatible with the older subclasses you end up with the same problem. You state you don’t love extra Attack as a means of increasing dps, but I could literally pull up multiple post across multiple threads of you promoting and pushing for Extra Attack even when other options are being given. In this thread you jumped in and immediately attacked my opinion of extra attack claiming it isn’t backed by numbers, when you know it is backed numbers. If every time I see someone they are drinking alcohol I don’t care if they say, “I don’t drink that often,” or “I really don’t like the taste of alcohol,” I’m going to judge their actions not their statement.
You are taking things personally, this isnt personal, I'm talking math, ideas, and opinions, thats it.
no you missed the point of my previous posts;
the point of my previous posts was that extra attacks are a viable method of increasing damage, and there is nothing intrinisicly wrong with extra attacks in design or math. The reasoning of, monk with extra attack is boring is fine. The reasoning of monk with 3 attack action attacks is impossible to balance is not sound.
Whether I prefer it as a solution for monk is another story.
To use your analogy, you were stating all drinking is bad and destroys the lives of everyone it touches, and that is why it shouldn't be allowed, and I was disagreeing with that statement. That doesn't mean I drink, or think drinking to excess isn't a problem.
your contention was that it is impossible to balance extra attack, and monk getting extra attack would break the game. I disagree, it is very possible to balance extra attack, fighter proves that.
Specifically in this thread, I disagreed with the idea you were presenting, that extra attack + d6 would give monk way too much damage, because the numbers do not back that in one dnd. I understand, it seems like a big deal, but its not anymore. The average martials t3-t4 power level is higher now, and monk was already low.
mathematically extra attack +d6 per hit is around where the damage needs to be. (might be low, I'd have to do a deeper analysis) regardless of your dislike of extra attack, whatever your solution, it is wrong to say that this is giving monk too much damage. You can dislike the method, but the amount is not high.
let me ask you this, what do you think t3-t4 dpr numbers are for monk(any ua subclass)? What do you think dpr numbers are for berserker, brawler, ek, battlemastser, etc?
Consider making a table or chart showing the targeted capabilities of Monk, then work backward to design the abilities to meet those goals. For example, what DPR should a Monk be able to achieve? Sharing your vision gives insight into your design.
First off, 5e monk design was flawed. 2nd 5er is different from 5e, in that most martials have increased dpr and versatility, those both mean things must be different.
no its not how the monk class was designed. Monk subclasses do not usually give damage bonuses at 11. And monk fails at t3-t4 dpr in 5e, and even more in 5er
Ascendant dragon gives frighten and resistance
drunken master gives cancel of disadvantage
four elements gives
shadow gives a bonus attack on teleport, for a total of 3 attacks.
elements gives flight
death gives stay up at zero hp
open hand gave tranquility, now gives Ki less dash
sun soul gives aoe, lower single target.
mercy gives Ki discount and heals.
in fact only Astral and kensei give damage boosts at 11. So no monk nor its subclasses are designed to give a dpr boost at 11. Subclasses each follow their own design imperatives.
The numbers of other classes DPR right now are very beyond monk right now, they are mostly beyond 5e power attack for the best classes. EK is pulling 120+ brawler is about 100-110, Berserker is like 100. I don't even want to do the math on warlock, it will probably depress me. I already know monk with 5 attacks can not compete with that. do I need to say (5*12.5)*(accuracy) wont come close to that? fine, 62.5*.7=43.5 dpr, with 1d6 psychic. 3.5+6.5+6=16*5=80*.7= 56. even with advantage its still not close. multiply the previous by .9 instead. The highest dps from a subclass is Astral, with one attack, and one bonus die. That one gets close to the other classes, Its the only one, and only if it has advantage.
Also, don't make assumptions about my desire or intent. Just because I disagree with your perspective that extra attacks are impossible to balance, doesnt mean I have some desire to powergame. Monk would not be capable of power gaming even with an extra attack in 5er. Also, if you read my feedback, I actually said I would prefer a different means of increasing t3 dps, not because extra attack is OP, but because its not that interesting. Some one can disagree with you without ill intent.
They are designed to get a subclass at 11th. Period.
I’m stating that since this design is cemented, then those subclasses SHOULD improve damage. I’ve never said they did increase damage. Technically some do. Which you yourself already admitted. The easiest way to fix monks late game DPR is to ensure that all subclasses do (and improve the ones that already do), otherwise they need to move subclass from 11th, which is a bigger backwards compatibility issue.
Also I’m going to keep judging your desire and intent when you keep pushing the power gamers dream. More attacks!!! Like I said I’m okay with that being your play style (or not), but stop acting like there is not an easier way to increase damage and maintain balance. One that I’ve already presented to you.
so, its easier to change the subclass design of 8/10 subclasses, most of which do not appear in the phb (and all you can change is phb), in 8 different ways, than to give monk baseline the feature it needs...
ok.
Also I can't stop you from making baseless assumptions based on emotions, but they are still wrong. This is my words before we even had this exchange,
"Style choice
I don't love the extra attack as means of increasing dps. Nothing wrong with it mechanicly, its just kinda boring/overdone.". Its completely illogical to think I am pushing for more attacks, when I literally said I'd prefer something else. And there is no need to debate extra attack complexity, we have already agreed to disagree. I simply don't believe extra attack is hard to balance or math, or that it is a sacred cow. Its a bad idea to assume everyone shares your personal opinions. "We all know X," No, we don't all necessarily know or believe that.
If you make the base class incompatible with the older subclasses you end up with the same problem.
You state you don’t love extra Attack as a means of increasing dps, but I could literally pull up multiple post across multiple threads of you promoting and pushing for Extra Attack even when other options are being given. In this thread you jumped in and immediately attacked my opinion of extra attack claiming it isn’t backed by numbers, when you know it is backed numbers. If every time I see someone they are drinking alcohol I don’t care if they say, “I don’t drink that often,” or “I really don’t like the taste of alcohol,” I’m going to judge their actions not their statement.
Step of the Wind allows you to use both at once. It’s good idea - stops it being just a worse cunning action. The 30ft vertical jump is also very nice.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
You are taking things personally, this isnt personal, I'm talking math, ideas, and opinions, thats it.
no you missed the point of my previous posts;
the point of my previous posts was that extra attacks are a viable method of increasing damage, and there is nothing intrinisicly wrong with extra attacks in design or math. The reasoning of, monk with extra attack is boring is fine. The reasoning of monk with 3 attack action attacks is impossible to balance is not sound.
Whether I prefer it as a solution for monk is another story.
To use your analogy, you were stating all drinking is bad and destroys the lives of everyone it touches, and that is why it shouldn't be allowed, and I was disagreeing with that statement. That doesn't mean I drink, or think drinking to excess isn't a problem.
your contention was that it is impossible to balance extra attack, and monk getting extra attack would break the game. I disagree, it is very possible to balance extra attack, fighter proves that.
Specifically in this thread, I disagreed with the idea you were presenting, that extra attack + d6 would give monk way too much damage, because the numbers do not back that in one dnd. I understand, it seems like a big deal, but its not anymore. The average martials t3-t4 power level is higher now, and monk was already low.
lvl 13 numbers.
t3 numbers
https://youtu.be/kclZXxcDdlg?si=GTt2VIntuyHlUWCT&t=2683
https://youtu.be/wP3uLtg_aYE?si=5i1SXuoxVvm5_Czb&t=3300
in t4
Have you looked at the Eldritch Knight? Berserker Barbarian? Battlemaster + Rougue? Have you done the math on t4 Brawler?
these are the type of numbers monk needs to be competing with
https://imgur.com/x9da34A
https://youtu.be/J_ZSgiYSWWk?si=bnWWT4AXZZbk39mb&t=1076
https://youtu.be/J_ZSgiYSWWk?si=xF3TH1mHBfYN9OPs&t=2237
mathematically extra attack +d6 per hit is around where the damage needs to be. (might be low, I'd have to do a deeper analysis) regardless of your dislike of extra attack, whatever your solution, it is wrong to say that this is giving monk too much damage. You can dislike the method, but the amount is not high.
let me ask you this, what do you think t3-t4 dpr numbers are for monk(any ua subclass)? What do you think dpr numbers are for berserker, brawler, ek, battlemastser, etc?