BLADE WARD Abjuration Cantrip (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard) Casting Time: Reaction, which you take in response to a visible creature targeting you with a melee attack. all attacks from one attacker till start of your next turn Range: Self Components: V, S Duration: Instantaneous
You trace a sigil of warding, imposing Disadvantage on the creature’s attack roll against you. attack rolls against you till the start of your next turn.
or
You trace a sigil of warding, imposing Resistance to all damage from the melee attack.
---------------------------------
Also why is this just limited melee attack? You are setting up a ward that can stop a sword but not an arrow?
I think this would be too much for a cantrip. JC said in the video that it scaled at higher levels increasing the range at which this cantrip worked. So it may very well have worked against range at later levels. But that’s not how it was printed.
I find it funny people are calling this a strong cantrip. Nobody ever called the protection fighting style strong before, and they're practically the same.
I find it funny people are calling this a strong cantrip. Nobody ever called the protection fighting style strong before, and they're practically the same.
You forgot /s right?
Requires ANOTHER target than you to be right next to you.
Takes up a very limited fighting style
Has to have a shield equipped
Uses a reacion of a martial, who could actually have meaningful Attack of Opportunities
This is also picked up by characters who rarely have any use for their reaction to begin with. It's day and night.
I find it funny people are calling this a strong cantrip. Nobody ever called the protection fighting style strong before, and they're practically the same.
You forgot /s right?
Requires ANOTHER target than you to be right next to you.
Takes up a very limited fighting style
Has to have a shield equipped
Uses a reacion of a martial, who could actually have meaningful Attack of Opportunities
This is also picked up by characters who rarely have any use for their reaction to begin with. It's day and night.
Nope.
You're protecting an ally by imposing disadvantage on an attack roll, and unlike the playtest Blade Ward it doesn't require the attacker to be in melee.
Not all fighting styles add to damage, and letting players choose how they best add to the party is good.
Needing a shield isn't a big ask, since it also adds to the wielder's AC and they can use Shield Master for a cool bonus action.
A bard, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard could have absorb elements, shield, silvery barbs, War Caster, or any number of other reactions; up to and including spells which target a single ally in place of an Opportunity Attack.
It's meant to be a meaningful fallback option. That's what cantrips are. They're what you turn to when you don't have, or don't want to use, spell slots. Lots of characters could take it, including a High Elf and anyone with Magic Initiate (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard).
I think this would be too much for a cantrip. JC said in the video that it scaled at higher levels increasing the range at which this cantrip worked. So it may very well have worked against range at later levels. But that’s not how it was printed.
If the reaction triggers on a melee attack, how does it work when used at range?
I think this would be too much for a cantrip. JC said in the video that it scaled at higher levels increasing the range at which this cantrip worked. So it may very well have worked against range at later levels. But that’s not how it was printed.
If the reaction triggers on a melee attack, how does it work when used at range?
I would imagine that they almost made it trigger on an attack against the caster originating within range - the range starts out as melee, and later increases every tier. Next would be short ranged thrown weapons, then longer ranged ones like javelins, then finally the shorter ranges of device propelled weapons. But they instead decided to not go with boosting it as it leveled.
I find it funny people are calling this a strong cantrip. Nobody ever called the protection fighting style strong before, and they're practically the same.
You forgot /s right?
Requires ANOTHER target than you to be right next to you.
Takes up a very limited fighting style
Has to have a shield equipped
Uses a reacion of a martial, who could actually have meaningful Attack of Opportunities
This is also picked up by characters who rarely have any use for their reaction to begin with. It's day and night.
Nope.
You're protecting an ally by imposing disadvantage on an attack roll, and unlike the playtest Blade Ward it doesn't require the attacker to be in melee.
Not all fighting styles add to damage, and letting players choose how they best add to the party is good.
Needing a shield isn't a big ask, since it also adds to the wielder's AC and they can use Shield Master for a cool bonus action.
A bard, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard could have absorb elements, shield, silvery barbs, War Caster, or any number of other reactions; up to and including spells which target a single ally in place of an Opportunity Attack.
It's meant to be a meaningful fallback option. That's what cantrips are. They're what you turn to when you don't have, or don't want to use, spell slots. Lots of characters could take it, including a High Elf and anyone with Magic Initiate (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard).
Needing a shield is a HUGE ask because two-handed weapons have (1) much better combat feats that boost damage, (2) do significantly higher baseline damage, (3) have the best weapon masteries attached to them. The difference in damage between sword-and-board and a polearm is about 50-75% once you get into tier 2. The shield master feat is now a joke because a two-handed weapon with Push or Topple does the exact same thing without requiring any action (and in the case of Push not even a save).
Hardly anyone uses the Protection fighting style in 5e, and even fewer will use it in 5eR.
In contrast everyone gets a free feat at level 1 in 5eR, and one of those choices is Magic Initiate, which means everyone who wants it can get Blade Ward at level 1 (plus either Shield or Find Familiar).
The question of whether Blade Ward is OP or not, is to ask : When would you NOT want to take Blade Ward if it was available for your character? If your answer, like me, is probably never. Then it is OP and bad for the game b/c it is reducing choices and character diversity.
Needing a shield is a HUGE ask because two-handed weapons have (1) much better combat feats that boost damage, (2) do significantly higher baseline damage, (3) have the best weapon masteries attached to them. The difference in damage between sword-and-board and a polearm is about 50-75% once you get into tier 2. The shield master feat is now a joke because a two-handed weapon with Push or Topple does the exact same thing without requiring any action (and in the case of Push not even a save).
Hardly anyone uses the Protection fighting style in 5e, and even fewer will use it in 5eR.
In contrast everyone gets a free feat at level 1 in 5eR, and one of those choices is Magic Initiate, which means everyone who wants it can get Blade Ward at level 1 (plus either Shield or Find Familiar).
The question of whether Blade Ward is OP or not, is to ask : When would you NOT want to take Blade Ward if it was available for your character? If your answer, like me, is probably never. Then it is OP and bad for the game b/c it is reducing choices and character diversity.
This is exactly the main topic. Blade Ward itself might not be broken, but if it's the default option for any character it is available to (and maybe more) it's definitely questionable and should be discussed.
Over the course of your character's lifetime, you will most likely use it whenever it's possible - and it'll be possible very often, since the most common threat you are facing in combat is melee attacks.
I find it funny people are calling this a strong cantrip. Nobody ever called the protection fighting style strong before, and they're practically the same.
You forgot /s right?
Requires ANOTHER target than you to be right next to you.
Takes up a very limited fighting style
Has to have a shield equipped
Uses a reacion of a martial, who could actually have meaningful Attack of Opportunities
This is also picked up by characters who rarely have any use for their reaction to begin with. It's day and night.
Nope.
You're protecting an ally by imposing disadvantage on an attack roll, and unlike the playtest Blade Ward it doesn't require the attacker to be in melee.
Not all fighting styles add to damage, and letting players choose how they best add to the party is good.
Needing a shield isn't a big ask, since it also adds to the wielder's AC and they can use Shield Master for a cool bonus action.
A bard, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard could have absorb elements, shield, silvery barbs, War Caster, or any number of other reactions; up to and including spells which target a single ally in place of an Opportunity Attack.
It's meant to be a meaningful fallback option. That's what cantrips are. They're what you turn to when you don't have, or don't want to use, spell slots. Lots of characters could take it, including a High Elf and anyone with Magic Initiate (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard).
Needing a shield is a HUGE ask because two-handed weapons have (1) much better combat feats that boost damage, (2) do significantly higher baseline damage, (3) have the best weapon masteries attached to them. The difference in damage between sword-and-board and a polearm is about 50-75% once you get into tier 2. The shield master feat is now a joke because a two-handed weapon with Push or Topple does the exact same thing without requiring any action (and in the case of Push not even a save).
Hardly anyone uses the Protection fighting style in 5e, and even fewer will use it in 5eR.
In contrast everyone gets a free feat at level 1 in 5eR, and one of those choices is Magic Initiate, which means everyone who wants it can get Blade Ward at level 1 (plus either Shield or Find Familiar).
The question of whether Blade Ward is OP or not, is to ask : When would you NOT want to take Blade Ward if it was available for your character? If your answer, like me, is probably never. Then it is OP and bad for the game b/c it is reducing choices and character diversity.
If I was playing a character whose build used reactions a lot, I'd probably never take blade ward as it becomes another thing competing for that action. Better to take something always useful instead of something situational. If the character is a back ranker who rarely gets targeted in melee, again, Blade Ward becomes situational and less attractive. If a build is feat intensive, there might not be room for Magic Initiate until later, as I prefer to get to a build ASAP since my character concept comes first, add ons come later.
If I was playing a character whose build used reactions a lot, I'd probably never take blade ward as it becomes another thing competing for that action. Better to take something always useful instead of something situational. If the character is a back ranker who rarely gets targeted in melee, again, Blade Ward becomes situational and less attractive. If a build is feat intensive, there might not be room for Magic Initiate until later, as I prefer to get to a build ASAP since my character concept comes first, add ons come later.
What kind of character uses reactions a lot? Which 1st level feat would you take instead of Magic Initiate?
I find it funny people are calling this a strong cantrip. Nobody ever called the protection fighting style strong before, and they're practically the same.
You forgot /s right?
Requires ANOTHER target than you to be right next to you.
Takes up a very limited fighting style
Has to have a shield equipped
Uses a reacion of a martial, who could actually have meaningful Attack of Opportunities
This is also picked up by characters who rarely have any use for their reaction to begin with. It's day and night.
Nope.
You're protecting an ally by imposing disadvantage on an attack roll, and unlike the playtest Blade Ward it doesn't require the attacker to be in melee.
Not all fighting styles add to damage, and letting players choose how they best add to the party is good.
Needing a shield isn't a big ask, since it also adds to the wielder's AC and they can use Shield Master for a cool bonus action.
A bard, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard could have absorb elements, shield, silvery barbs, War Caster, or any number of other reactions; up to and including spells which target a single ally in place of an Opportunity Attack.
It's meant to be a meaningful fallback option. That's what cantrips are. They're what you turn to when you don't have, or don't want to use, spell slots. Lots of characters could take it, including a High Elf and anyone with Magic Initiate (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard).
Needing a shield is a HUGE ask because two-handed weapons have (1) much better combat feats that boost damage, (2) do significantly higher baseline damage, (3) have the best weapon masteries attached to them. The difference in damage between sword-and-board and a polearm is about 50-75% once you get into tier 2. The shield master feat is now a joke because a two-handed weapon with Push or Topple does the exact same thing without requiring any action (and in the case of Push not even a save).
Hardly anyone uses the Protection fighting style in 5e, and even fewer will use it in 5eR.
In contrast
...everyone gets a free feat at level 1 in 5eR, and one of those choices is Magic Initiate, which means everyone who wants it can get Blade Ward at level 1 (plus either Shield or Find Familiar).
The question of whether Blade Ward is OP or not, is to ask : When would you NOT want to take Blade Ward if it was available for your character? If your answer, like me, is probably never. Then it is OP and bad for the game b/c it is reducing choices and character diversity.
that is a really good way to view this issue. however, just because it seems like it might be an obvious answer for optimizers doesn't make it overpowered. for one thing, a min-maxer might also be concerned with having a ranged option, playing with truestrike and/or shillelagh, or Light since darkvision's dim light causes lightly obscured and disadvantage in the dark. there are choices to be made with Magic Initiate's two cantrips. additionally, UA blade ward eats up a reaction which is actually inserting a decision point rather than obviating choices even after taking the spell.
but these points have been made throughout the thread. one last big thing to note is that min-maxers might need this thrown bone if some of us get our druthers in UA9 regarding the shifting of warlock, monk, and other class features to make multiclassing dips less easy/obvious with more trade-offs to think about.
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If I was playing a character whose build used reactions a lot, I'd probably never take blade ward as it becomes another thing competing for that action. Better to take something always useful instead of something situational. If the character is a back ranker who rarely gets targeted in melee, again, Blade Ward becomes situational and less attractive. If a build is feat intensive, there might not be room for Magic Initiate until later, as I prefer to get to a build ASAP since my character concept comes first, add ons come later.
What kind of character uses reactions a lot? Which 1st level feat would you take instead of Magic Initiate?
For starters, anything that is a prerequisite for a feat chain.
In addition, feats like Alert and Lucky both seem like good ones to consider besides Magic Initiate, and Skilled or Healer might be considered depending on the build and party makeup. If the character looks to be severely lacking in AC, I'd rather boost the base number rather than force an opponent to take 2 nearly certain chances rather than a single roll. There is a point where imposing disadvantage isn't much of an advantage at all. If fighting styles from Tasha's aren't banned from the campaign (and the goal of backwards compatibility means some table will allow them) then I'd seriously consider taking a fighting style at level one so that I can take the Blind Fighting style at level 2 (I've had GM's who treated Invisibility and Mirror Image as a magic carpet ride for baddies that EVERY LAST ONE used). Or use it to free space for the Martial Adept feat and the Superior Technique fighting style and become a mini-battlemaster in addition to all the benefits of a different class and/or subclass.
As far as what kind of character uses reactions a lot, half of the fighter subclasses get at least one option for reactions besides making an opportunity attack, and most of them are the better subclasses. This is without bringing in the Sentinel feat, which again creates more chances to use one's reaction and is taken by more than just fighters. The Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, the Fathomless Warlock, and several other subclasses also get something competing for the use of their reactions besides one cantrip.
Will Blade Ward be taken more if this change stays? Certainly, but since it wasn't being taken much at all before, that is easy to see. I don't think it is going to be as common as you fear - there are other things competing for attention of players, and in more than a few cases those other things are probably going to win out.
What kind of character uses reactions a lot? Which 1st level feat would you take instead of Magic Initiate?
Magic initiate is one of the better level 1 feats, but not because of blade ward. If I wanted durability, Lightly Armored and Tough both are usually going to be superior choices.
What kind of character uses reactions a lot? Which 1st level feat would you take instead of Magic Initiate?
Magic initiate is one of the better level 1 feats, but not because of blade ward. If I wanted durability, Lightly Armored and Tough both are usually going to be superior choices.
With Magic Initiate you can get a spellcaster using stuff that they normally couldn't use. A spellcasting cleric (rather than a battle cleric) or a bard could get a much better attack cantrip instead, or a clever player could load up on all the good multipurpose cantrips. Or a Ranger can use a much better quarterstaff than normal. Or who knows what else.
What kind of character uses reactions a lot? Which 1st level feat would you take instead of Magic Initiate?
Magic initiate is one of the better level 1 feats, but not because of blade ward. If I wanted durability, Lightly Armored and Tough both are usually going to be superior choices.
With Magic Initiate you can get a spellcaster using stuff that they normally couldn't use. A spellcasting cleric (rather than a battle cleric) or a bard could get a much better attack cantrip instead, or a clever player could load up on all the good multipurpose cantrips. Or a Ranger can use a much better quarterstaff than normal. Or who knows what else.
This is assuming they keep the UA version of Magic initiate that let you choose the casting stat. It is possible that died with everyone getting there own spell list again. We don’t know what they are going to do with it moving forward.
This might be okay if casters were limited to one cantrip per round, but as it is, I can already hear my wizard and bard players spamming "Blade Ward". I hate Shield as it is, but since I limit casters to one leveled spell per round, I live with it. A wizard trying to cast spells is harder to hit by an orc or goblin than a warrior type? I've banned it (we're using most of the playtest materials) until I or WotC comes up with a balancing fix. Right now, it's too good.
Players thinking I'm unreasonable, imagine if every you swung at a baddie you heard "Blade Ward" and had disadvantage. Why did all the bandits, kobolds, and hobgoblins dip sorcerer? Because this cantrip is too useful.
This might be okay if casters were limited to one cantrip per round, but as it is, I can already hear my wizard and bard players spamming "Blade Ward". I hate Shield as it is, but since I limit casters to one leveled spell per round, I live with it. A wizard trying to cast spells is harder to hit by an orc or goblin than a warrior type? I've banned it (we're using most of the playtest materials) until I or WotC comes up with a balancing fix. Right now, it's too good.
Players thinking I'm unreasonable, imagine if every you swung at a baddie you heard "Blade Ward" and had disadvantage. Why did all the bandits, kobolds, and hobgoblins dip sorcerer? Because this cantrip is too useful.
Honestly I think it's one of those things that looks overpowered at low levels and swiftly fades once tier 2 play begins. Forcing disadvantage on one attack roll looks great until you realize that 5th level Gloom Stalker is taking 4 swings at you this round. At that point you might have wanted to cast Blur instead, and force disadvantage on EVERY attack made against you, including the ranged ones, rather than the first melee attack made against you in the round.
This might be okay if casters were limited to one cantrip per round, but as it is, I can already hear my wizard and bard players spamming "Blade Ward". I hate Shield as it is, but since I limit casters to one leveled spell per round, I live with it. A wizard trying to cast spells is harder to hit by an orc or goblin than a warrior type? I've banned it (we're using most of the playtest materials) until I or WotC comes up with a balancing fix. Right now, it's too good.
Players thinking I'm unreasonable, imagine if every you swung at a baddie you heard "Blade Ward" and had disadvantage. Why did all the bandits, kobolds, and hobgoblins dip sorcerer? Because this cantrip is too useful.
Be funny if you did that and than your players just started laying into single enemies or using spells or ranged attacks and suddenly that blade ward is uh.. not so hot. Than you know level 5 hits and ppl start making more attacks and using BA attacks from feats and such. But hey you know dip your stuff cuse blade ward is just so powerful?
I think this would be too much for a cantrip. JC said in the video that it scaled at higher levels increasing the range at which this cantrip worked. So it may very well have worked against range at later levels. But that’s not how it was printed.
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I find it funny people are calling this a strong cantrip. Nobody ever called the protection fighting style strong before, and they're practically the same.
You forgot /s right?
This is also picked up by characters who rarely have any use for their reaction to begin with. It's day and night.
Nope.
It's meant to be a meaningful fallback option. That's what cantrips are. They're what you turn to when you don't have, or don't want to use, spell slots. Lots of characters could take it, including a High Elf and anyone with Magic Initiate (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard).
You also typically get Protection at second level, and I actually do think it's a super good ability.
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HERE.If the reaction triggers on a melee attack, how does it work when used at range?
I would imagine that they almost made it trigger on an attack against the caster originating within range - the range starts out as melee, and later increases every tier. Next would be short ranged thrown weapons, then longer ranged ones like javelins, then finally the shorter ranges of device propelled weapons. But they instead decided to not go with boosting it as it leveled.
Needing a shield is a HUGE ask because two-handed weapons have (1) much better combat feats that boost damage, (2) do significantly higher baseline damage, (3) have the best weapon masteries attached to them. The difference in damage between sword-and-board and a polearm is about 50-75% once you get into tier 2. The shield master feat is now a joke because a two-handed weapon with Push or Topple does the exact same thing without requiring any action (and in the case of Push not even a save).
Hardly anyone uses the Protection fighting style in 5e, and even fewer will use it in 5eR.
In contrast everyone gets a free feat at level 1 in 5eR, and one of those choices is Magic Initiate, which means everyone who wants it can get Blade Ward at level 1 (plus either Shield or Find Familiar).
The question of whether Blade Ward is OP or not, is to ask : When would you NOT want to take Blade Ward if it was available for your character? If your answer, like me, is probably never. Then it is OP and bad for the game b/c it is reducing choices and character diversity.
This is exactly the main topic. Blade Ward itself might not be broken, but if it's the default option for any character it is available to (and maybe more) it's definitely questionable and should be discussed.
Over the course of your character's lifetime, you will most likely use it whenever it's possible - and it'll be possible very often, since the most common threat you are facing in combat is melee attacks.
If I was playing a character whose build used reactions a lot, I'd probably never take blade ward as it becomes another thing competing for that action. Better to take something always useful instead of something situational. If the character is a back ranker who rarely gets targeted in melee, again, Blade Ward becomes situational and less attractive. If a build is feat intensive, there might not be room for Magic Initiate until later, as I prefer to get to a build ASAP since my character concept comes first, add ons come later.
What kind of character uses reactions a lot? Which 1st level feat would you take instead of Magic Initiate?
Rogues do, yes? Granted, not until 5th level, but once they get uncanny dodge, it's a go-to reaction, right?
that is a really good way to view this issue. however, just because it seems like it might be an obvious answer for optimizers doesn't make it overpowered. for one thing, a min-maxer might also be concerned with having a ranged option, playing with truestrike and/or shillelagh, or Light since darkvision's dim light causes lightly obscured and disadvantage in the dark. there are choices to be made with Magic Initiate's two cantrips. additionally, UA blade ward eats up a reaction which is actually inserting a decision point rather than obviating choices even after taking the spell.
but these points have been made throughout the thread. one last big thing to note is that min-maxers might need this thrown bone if some of us get our druthers in UA9 regarding the shifting of warlock, monk, and other class features to make multiclassing dips less easy/obvious with more trade-offs to think about.
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For starters, anything that is a prerequisite for a feat chain.
In addition, feats like Alert and Lucky both seem like good ones to consider besides Magic Initiate, and Skilled or Healer might be considered depending on the build and party makeup. If the character looks to be severely lacking in AC, I'd rather boost the base number rather than force an opponent to take 2 nearly certain chances rather than a single roll. There is a point where imposing disadvantage isn't much of an advantage at all. If fighting styles from Tasha's aren't banned from the campaign (and the goal of backwards compatibility means some table will allow them) then I'd seriously consider taking a fighting style at level one so that I can take the Blind Fighting style at level 2 (I've had GM's who treated Invisibility and Mirror Image as a magic carpet ride for baddies that EVERY LAST ONE used). Or use it to free space for the Martial Adept feat and the Superior Technique fighting style and become a mini-battlemaster in addition to all the benefits of a different class and/or subclass.
As far as what kind of character uses reactions a lot, half of the fighter subclasses get at least one option for reactions besides making an opportunity attack, and most of them are the better subclasses. This is without bringing in the Sentinel feat, which again creates more chances to use one's reaction and is taken by more than just fighters. The Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, the Fathomless Warlock, and several other subclasses also get something competing for the use of their reactions besides one cantrip.
Will Blade Ward be taken more if this change stays? Certainly, but since it wasn't being taken much at all before, that is easy to see. I don't think it is going to be as common as you fear - there are other things competing for attention of players, and in more than a few cases those other things are probably going to win out.
Magic initiate is one of the better level 1 feats, but not because of blade ward. If I wanted durability, Lightly Armored and Tough both are usually going to be superior choices.
With Magic Initiate you can get a spellcaster using stuff that they normally couldn't use. A spellcasting cleric (rather than a battle cleric) or a bard could get a much better attack cantrip instead, or a clever player could load up on all the good multipurpose cantrips. Or a Ranger can use a much better quarterstaff than normal. Or who knows what else.
This is assuming they keep the UA version of Magic initiate that let you choose the casting stat. It is possible that died with everyone getting there own spell list again. We don’t know what they are going to do with it moving forward.
This might be okay if casters were limited to one cantrip per round, but as it is, I can already hear my wizard and bard players spamming "Blade Ward". I hate Shield as it is, but since I limit casters to one leveled spell per round, I live with it. A wizard trying to cast spells is harder to hit by an orc or goblin than a warrior type? I've banned it (we're using most of the playtest materials) until I or WotC comes up with a balancing fix. Right now, it's too good.
Players thinking I'm unreasonable, imagine if every you swung at a baddie you heard "Blade Ward" and had disadvantage. Why did all the bandits, kobolds, and hobgoblins dip sorcerer? Because this cantrip is too useful.
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Honestly I think it's one of those things that looks overpowered at low levels and swiftly fades once tier 2 play begins. Forcing disadvantage on one attack roll looks great until you realize that 5th level Gloom Stalker is taking 4 swings at you this round. At that point you might have wanted to cast Blur instead, and force disadvantage on EVERY attack made against you, including the ranged ones, rather than the first melee attack made against you in the round.
Be funny if you did that and than your players just started laying into single enemies or using spells or ranged attacks and suddenly that blade ward is uh.. not so hot. Than you know level 5 hits and ppl start making more attacks and using BA attacks from feats and such. But hey you know dip your stuff cuse blade ward is just so powerful?