The problem is that having already acquired the ingredients as blank plot coupons gives more of the expectation they can be turned in for whatever the player wants, shifting the dynamic of magic item distribution, which is meant to be firmly under the DM’s control. Deciding what you want first and then asking if the DM is amenable to working it in prevents false starts and undercuts munchkins who would try and browbeat a DM.
This sounds like a major selling point, tbh, and not "the problem".
Adding magic item crafting with full player control increases player agency, and lets players actually get their hands on stuff that want, and not random stuff DM thinks are neat.
Except the game is not balanced around players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want. It is balanced around the class features, with the DM managing the acquisition of magic items so that they don’t trivialize the plot.
The problem is that having already acquired the ingredients as blank plot coupons gives more of the expectation they can be turned in for whatever the player wants, shifting the dynamic of magic item distribution, which is meant to be firmly under the DM’s control. Deciding what you want first and then asking if the DM is amenable to working it in prevents false starts and undercuts munchkins who would try and browbeat a DM.
This sounds like a major selling point, tbh, and not "the problem".
Adding magic item crafting with full player control increases player agency, and lets players actually get their hands on stuff that want, and not random stuff DM thinks are neat.
Except the game is not balanced around players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want. It is balanced around the class features, with the DM managing the acquisition of magic items so that they don’t trivialize the plot.
a crafting system doesnt mean you get what you want when you want. It usually has all sorts of limitations and factors. It also would be an optional system, so really its still DM control, just the DM deciding they like whatever rule system they came up with for obtaining magic items.
and, DMs can handle magic items, the difference from optimized player to normal player usually far outweighs a magic item in power swing. And really the DM needs to adapt encounters to whatever table they play at. Some tables struggle with fights they should be able to win easily, and others can fight 10 CR higher than themselves. One of the big things they need to do in the DMG is make it more clear to the average DM how to adjust encounters/monsters/etc so they arent scared of the players playing well, or getting an item.
And yeah, they generally expect that players will have magic items, there exists charts that show how many each player is expected to get. its not a big problem.
Except the game is not balanced around players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want. It is balanced around the class features, with the DM managing the acquisition of magic items so that they don’t trivialize the plot.
Who's proposing a crafting system that the DM has no control over? I haven't seen a single post to that effect, but you keep implying that the goal of a streamlined crafting system is player-led chaos?
The DM can literally alter, overrule or veto anything they want whenever they want, and they are under no obligation to allow players to use optional rules if they don't want them to. The idea behind a simplified crafting system is that it should follow roughly the same accessibility you would have for obtaining items directly, only with an added crafting step that gives you more choice over what you obtain.
That's it. The DM can allow that choice to be as open or as restrictive as they wish. Some DMs are happy to adapt to players throwing them a curve-ball, others will prefer to keep things more moderated so it doesn't get out of hand; neither is wrong.
But if an official crafting system is made overly complicated and overly restrictive as standard, that only makes it harder to use. It's much easier to take a well defined but streamlined system and add your own restrictions (e.g- point players to the crafting rules and say "Here's what you can choose from" or "Let me know what you want to make and I'll say if that's okay"), than it is to take a restrictive system and open it up again (as you'd have to point to the rules and give them a list of sentences and/or sections to ignore).
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Except the game is not balanced around players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want. It is balanced around the class features, with the DM managing the acquisition of magic items so that they don’t trivialize the plot.
Who's proposing that a crafting system that the DM has no control over? I haven't seen a single post to that effect, but you keep implying that the goal of a streamlined crafting system is player-led chaos?
The DM can literally alter, overrule or veto anything they want whenever they want, and they are under no obligation to allow players to use optional rules if they don't want them to. The idea behind a simplified crafting system is that it should follow roughly the same accessibility you would have for obtaining items directly, only with an added crafting step that gives you more choice over what you obtain.
That's it. The DM can allow that choice to be as open or as restrictive as they wish. Some DMs are happy to adapt to players throwing them a curve-ball, others will prefer to keep things more moderated so it doesn't get out of hand; neither is wrong.
But if an official crafting system is made overly complicated and overly restrictive as standard, that only makes it harder to use. It's much easier to take a well defined but streamlined system and add your own restrictions (e.g- point players to the crafting rules and say "Here's what you can choose from" or "Let me know what you want to make and I'll say if that's okay"), than it is to take a restrictive system and open it up again (as you'd have to point to the rules and give them a list of sentences and/or sections to ignore).
It just seems to me like a lot of people want to basically just be able to announce they’ve crafted an item as a fait accompli, which then creates the dynamic of the DM taking away something they already had if the DM feels for one reason or another that they don’t want to allow that item at that particular point. Imo crafting magic items does need to be an area where you need the DM’s permission to proceed. Formula and components help narratively codify why that would be- and make crafting something more interesting than the item essentially just appearing in the campaign- but it’s the codification of the fact that crafting requires DM permission that I consider essential.
The problem is that having already acquired the ingredients as blank plot coupons gives more of the expectation they can be turned in for whatever the player wants, shifting the dynamic of magic item distribution, which is meant to be firmly under the DM’s control. Deciding what you want first and then asking if the DM is amenable to working it in prevents false starts and undercuts munchkins who would try and browbeat a DM.
This sounds like a major selling point, tbh, and not "the problem".
Adding magic item crafting with full player control increases player agency, and lets players actually get their hands on stuff that want, and not random stuff DM thinks are neat.
Except the game is not balanced around players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want. It is balanced around the class features, with the DM managing the acquisition of magic items so that they don’t trivialize the plot.
I think you'll find that nobody mentioned anything about "players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want".
The problem is that having already acquired the ingredients as blank plot coupons gives more of the expectation they can be turned in for whatever the player wants, shifting the dynamic of magic item distribution, which is meant to be firmly under the DM’s control. Deciding what you want first and then asking if the DM is amenable to working it in prevents false starts and undercuts munchkins who would try and browbeat a DM.
This sounds like a major selling point, tbh, and not "the problem".
Adding magic item crafting with full player control increases player agency, and lets players actually get their hands on stuff that want, and not random stuff DM thinks are neat.
Except the game is not balanced around players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want. It is balanced around the class features, with the DM managing the acquisition of magic items so that they don’t trivialize the plot.
I think you'll find that nobody mentioned anything about "players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want".
RealBoz did:
This sounds like a major selling point, tbh, and not "the problem".
Adding magic item crafting with full player control increases player agency, and lets players actually get their hands on stuff that want, and not random stuff DM thinks are neat.
And from experience on several Westmarches Servers, I'd estimate ~20% of players want exactly that : the exact items they want (after having searched all the books to find the 'items that work best with their build' - i.e. the most powerful items of each tier of rarity), when they think they deserve to have them.
The problem is that having already acquired the ingredients as blank plot coupons gives more of the expectation they can be turned in for whatever the player wants, shifting the dynamic of magic item distribution, which is meant to be firmly under the DM’s control. Deciding what you want first and then asking if the DM is amenable to working it in prevents false starts and undercuts munchkins who would try and browbeat a DM.
This sounds like a major selling point, tbh, and not "the problem".
Adding magic item crafting with full player control increases player agency, and lets players actually get their hands on stuff that want, and not random stuff DM thinks are neat.
Except the game is not balanced around players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want. It is balanced around the class features, with the DM managing the acquisition of magic items so that they don’t trivialize the plot.
I think you'll find that nobody mentioned anything about "players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want".
RealBoz did:
This sounds like a major selling point, tbh, and not "the problem".
Adding magic item crafting with full player control increases player agency, and lets players actually get their hands on stuff that want, and not random stuff DM thinks are neat.
And from experience on several Westmarches Servers, I'd estimate ~20% of players want exactly that : the exact items they want (after having searched all the books to find the 'items that work best with their build' - i.e. the most powerful items of each tier of rarity), when they think they deserve to have them.
RealBoz wanted to be able to pick items, and have general agency, that doesnt mean i get whatever i want whenever i want. That could easily mean there is an transparent method i can go through to obtain an item i am seeking, rather than now, where most items, from the player perspective are randomly given.
that method would likely have a method, and requirements that limit how often, what you can obtain at what points, and how to get items, as thats basically what a crafting system is. And that method would be approved by the GM because basically almost everything in the DMG is DM suggestions
The problem is that having already acquired the ingredients as blank plot coupons gives more of the expectation they can be turned in for whatever the player wants, shifting the dynamic of magic item distribution, which is meant to be firmly under the DM’s control. Deciding what you want first and then asking if the DM is amenable to working it in prevents false starts and undercuts munchkins who would try and browbeat a DM.
This sounds like a major selling point, tbh, and not "the problem".
Adding magic item crafting with full player control increases player agency, and lets players actually get their hands on stuff that want, and not random stuff DM thinks are neat.
Except the game is not balanced around players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want. It is balanced around the class features, with the DM managing the acquisition of magic items so that they don’t trivialize the plot.
I think you'll find that nobody mentioned anything about "players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want".
RealBoz did:
This sounds like a major selling point, tbh, and not "the problem".
Adding magic item crafting with full player control increases player agency, and lets players actually get their hands on stuff that want, and not random stuff DM thinks are neat.
And from experience on several Westmarches Servers, I'd estimate ~20% of players want exactly that : the exact items they want (after having searched all the books to find the 'items that work best with their build' - i.e. the most powerful items of each tier of rarity), when they think they deserve to have them.
Wow, what an... exotic reading of what I wrote.
If I squint, I guess I can see how one might misread what I wrote, so let me expand upon it.
"magic item crafting" - The act of adding into the game a most often permanent item with magical enchantments, one that either already exists in the books, or follows the hypothetical rules of creation of such an item, through means of player and character action that utilizes skills and magical abilities. "full player control" - The player has full control of what is crafted, as opposed to the 'heavily guided' approach exemplified by the DM handing out 'an icy handguard' that can be used to make a +cold damage melee weapon. "not random stuff" - In contrast to campaigns in which DMs outright ask what players want, DMs guess what players might want, DMs throw out magic items left and right hoping a player likes one of them, or the Adventurers-R-Us Magic Mart.
"I want everything I want whenever I want it" is a misrepresentation of every comment in the thread, including mine.
And I’ve said nothing promoting the idea crafting should be random; as I have outlined repeatedly, the benefits of the component and formula are related to storytelling, worldbuilding, and codifying that you need an explicit green light from the DM to craft. I’m not saying you have to roll a table to see what you make. And I’ve played with DMs who let you give them a shopping list of magic items and came back with the ones you could find to purchase and their prices, so no crafting is not the sole possible means of getting at items you want.
And I’ve said nothing promoting the idea crafting should be random; as I have outlined repeatedly, the benefits of the component and formula are related to storytelling, worldbuilding, and codifying that you need an explicit green light from the DM to craft. I’m not saying you have to roll a table to see what you make. And I’ve played with DMs who let you give them a shopping list of magic items and came back with the ones you could find to purchase and their prices, so no crafting is not the sole possible means of getting at items you want.
Ever get tired of arguing against things nobody has said?
rather than now, where most items, from the player perspective are randomly given.
See this is what I don't understand. The only time I've felt like items are randomly given is playing on a West Marches server where every quest had to give players magic items regardless of whether it made sense or not.
Otherwise, magic items always either were clearly selected by the DM so that everyone in the party got something useful to them, or they had clear narrative links - e.g. a hunter gives you a magic bow, a temple to a fire god has a flaming sword in it, the lair of a hag has a grimoire and a wand of polymorph, etc... etc...
That could easily mean there is an transparent method i can go through to obtain an item i am seeking.
How is this not "I can choose to go get the item I want when I want it"? 'an item i am seeking' = I want it 'a transparent method' = I can choose when to do so 'i can go through to obtain' = I can get it
Crafting either let's players get what they want when they want it regardless of what the DM intends, or is not qualitatively different than the current system where the players either get what they get (only now it is ingredients & formulae rather than items) or they ask the DM if they can get a particular item (only now they ask for ingredients & formulae rather than items). It's a different flavour for sure - rather than seeking out history of an item to try to locate it and questing to find it, you instead research how to create such an item then go questing to obtain the ingredients - but the fundamental set up is the same.
You could simply replace it with a "As a DM you may want ask your players what magic items their character is looking for and use that as inspiration for a quest where they can seek it out." And have essentially the same outcome for players.
For a crafting system to add value to the game, it should be mechanically fun and interesting in itself, not simply be a means to an end (obtaining magic items).
And I’ve said nothing promoting the idea crafting should be random; as I have outlined repeatedly, the benefits of the component and formula are related to storytelling, worldbuilding, and codifying that you need an explicit green light from the DM to craft. I’m not saying you have to roll a table to see what you make. And I’ve played with DMs who let you give them a shopping list of magic items and came back with the ones you could find to purchase and their prices, so no crafting is not the sole possible means of getting at items you want.
Ever get tired of arguing against things nobody has said?
There’s what people explicitly say, and then there’s subtext, implications, and consequences.
For a crafting system to add value to the game, it should be mechanically fun and interesting in itself, not simply be a means to an end (obtaining magic items).
The mechanics of how crafting works isn't what really does that though; a simple system means you need a component, and you need for the actual crafting to occur, but DMs and players are free to make that as simple or as complex as they want.
Just because your DM gave you a rare component doesn't mean the next step has to be "pick an item, now you have that item". Do you even know how to make the item? Does anyone in the current village/town/city? If it's a rare item it needs rare skills, just going to the smithy and making any halfways decent Smith's Tools check probably isn't going to cut it.
If you don't have the component, where are you going to get it? Do you need to seek out a particular creature? Raid a particular dungeon? Barter with a mage's guild who may want something in return? Heist?
The crafting system doesn't need to specify any of that, because that's down to the DM and/or players, it's no different to any other aspect of the game; if you want something, maybe you need to do something else to get it. This isn't unique to crafting; all a crafting system needs to do is give the very basics, and maybe some examples of how you might weave it into a campaign in a more interesting ways if what you want isn't just to give the player a redeemable voucher (though some DMs will be fine with that).
It really staggers me that the argument against a crafting system being kept simple essentially boils down to all players being powergaming munchkins and all DMs being feckless idiots; those aren't problems that any crafting system can solve, but by trying to do so you can definitely end up with a crafting system that nobody will want to use, because most people don't want a 40 page section they need to memorise just to stand a chance of being able to successfully craft a mitten.
And this is a game where loads of things are massively simplified; sword fights mechanically in D&D are just two creatures hacking each other to pieces until one of them dies, maybe you add the occasional ability or reaction into the mix. Clearly the goal was simplicity first, but you can add as much complexity mechanically or narratively on top as you want to, allowing you to turn an unrealistic hack-fest into an exciting back and forth with a decisive killing blow, rather than just "your number hit zero first so I win".
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
For a crafting system to add value to the game, it should be mechanically fun and interesting in itself, not simply be a means to an end (obtaining magic items).
The mechanics of how crafting works isn't what really does that though; a simple system means you need a component, and you need for the actual crafting to occur, but DMs and players are free to make that as simple or as complex as they want.
Just because your DM gave you a rare component doesn't mean the next step has to be "pick an item, now you have that item". Do you even know how to make the item? Does anyone in the current village/town/city? If it's a rare item it needs rare skills, just going to the smithy and making any halfways decent Smith's Tools check probably isn't going to cut it.
If you don't have the component, where are you going to get it? Do you need to seek out a particular creature? Raid a particular dungeon? Barter with a mage's guild who may want something in return? Heist?
The crafting system doesn't need to specify any of that, because that's down to the DM and/or players, it's no different to any other aspect of the game; if you want something, maybe you need to do something else to get it. This isn't unique to crafting; all a crafting system needs to do is give the very basics, and maybe some examples of how you might weave it into a campaign in a more interesting ways if what you want isn't just to give the player a redeemable voucher (though some DMs will be fine with that).
It really staggers me that the argument against a crafting system being kept simple essentially boils down to all players being powergaming munchkins and all DMs being feckless idiots; those aren't problems that any crafting system can solve, but by trying to do so you can definitely end up with a crafting system that nobody will want to use, because most people don't want a 40 page section they need to memorise just to stand a chance of being able to successfully craft a mitten.
And this is a game where loads of things are massively simplified; sword fights mechanically in D&D are just two creatures hacking each other to pieces until one of them dies, maybe you add the occasional ability or reaction into the mix. Clearly the goal is simplicity first, and you can add as much complexity mechanically or narratively on top as you want to.
As I’ve said several times, I’m not going to die on the hill that questing for the component is a vital component- although it does make the sequence significantly more engaging from a narrative sense. If a DM just wants it to be a matter “I’d like to craft this item” “Sounds good, that will be X gold and Y time”, that’s fine. But preemptively acquiring generic components is both pointless bookkeeping and narratively unsatisfying when the net effect is the exchange I described above. Just let the DM narrate how you ended up with the necessary components at the time of crafting in that case.
And while no, I don’t believe every player is some power-gaming munchkin, it only takes one to ruin an evening and possibly a campaign when they’re trying to squeeze everything they can from some ambiguous wording, so clearly codifying the basic principle that it’s up to the DM to approve the acquisition of a magic item is a simple common sense measure to avoid protracted arguments about the issue. If the DM has been good about working with the players and vice-versa it should just be a formality, and if not then a) trying to end run them is unlikely to address the actual problems at the table and b) one could wonder why someone who feels they aren’t getting the experience they want is still at the table. And no one is advocating for some ludicrously complex and restrictive system.
For crafting to be a valuable addition to the game, it should provide a new source of "fun" or "enjoyment". Different players have different things they find fun or enjoyable, and the game tries to provide a diversity of mechanics so that the broadest amount of players enjoy it. So what types of fun and enjoyment can a crafting system offer:
1) Optimization - for some players making big numbers go up is rewarding in itself, crafting could provide a means for these players to obtain the most optimal magic items for their build, without depending on the whims of the DM. [A good example of this is Skyrim enchanting or Minecraft survival mode]
2) Customization - for some players being able to customize the character, gear, and property to express themselves artistically is enjoyable in itself. Crafting could provide a means of creating custom non-magical (or magical) items to decorate their character with. [An example of this type of crafting is Minecraft creative mode or the Sims or any complex character creator]
3) Exploration - for some players exploration and discovery is enjoyable in itself. Crafting could provide a new avenue of experimentation to discover formulae for different items. [A good example of this type of crafting is Skyrim potion making]
4) Narrative Progression - for some players it is progressing the story that has the greatest enjoyment. Crafting could provide a way to create keys (in the abstract sense) to unlock the next chapter of the story.
5) Tactics - for some players it is planning and implementing tactics and strategy that has the greatest enjoyment. Crafting could provide a novel way to create various items (non-magical or magical) to allow creative and interesting tactics not currently available in the rules. [A good example of this type of crafting is the Witcher potions & blade oils]
6) Social - for some players talking & hanging out with friends is the enjoyment of the game. Crafting could provide a mechanism for interacting with NPC (I guess?).
Now then, out of all of these options only one of them requires crafting to primarily revolve around creating permanent magical items - that's #1 - Optimization. Which is why that is the point I focus on whenever the crafting discussion is centered on creating permanent magical items. If you have another reason for what kind of player and what type of enjoyment demands crafting to be focused on the creation of permanent magical items then I'm all ears, I'd love to hear it.
I sometimes miss the granularity of 3e's Magic Item creation rules, but I don't miss the overly-mechanics-forward aspect of it. I wish there was a way to be as concrete as 3e's version, but as minimalist as 5e's version... or a very good compromise that gets you the "craft anything, but with concrete balance" in as few rules as possible. The Artificer rules actually come close to this, but it's an Artificer specific thing, and they aren't permanent (they end when the Artificer dies or re-allocates them to another object). And the Rune system is complete disjoint from it.
Something that lets you pick up some of the Artificer's crafting via Feats (in the same way that you can pick up some Eldritch Invocation via Feats, or Sorcery Points and a Metamagic option, or Battlemaster Maneuvers, etc.). But like all of the other cross-class feats, these should be minor. Something like a limited number of common magic items, or a single uncommon, and they require daily attention (a ritual to refresh them every long-rest, that kind of thing), and they possibly occupy an attunement slot even if that enchantment doesn't usually require attunement.
Something that lets you make one or a few of your Artificed items permanent (maybe a Feat, guaranteeing that you're only going to do it a very few times in your lifetime).
Adding all non-legendary and non-artifact magic items to the set of things an Artificer can craft (I seem to recall some things are still missing).
Something for legendary items (I can't look it up right now, and I don't recall if Artificers ever get that option), but probably only 1 per lifetime, at very high level. Maybe it requires high Artificer level and an Epic Boon.
Don't address crafting artifacts, that seems outside of the scope of the 20-level game. (I wouldn't even say "epic tier", I would say "upper-epic").
rather than now, where most items, from the player perspective are randomly given.
See this is what I don't understand. The only time I've felt like items are randomly given is playing on a West Marches server where every quest had to give players magic items regardless of whether it made sense or not.
Otherwise, magic items always either were clearly selected by the DM so that everyone in the party got something useful to them, or they had clear narrative links - e.g. a hunter gives you a magic bow, a temple to a fire god has a flaming sword in it, the lair of a hag has a grimoire and a wand of polymorph, etc... etc...
That could easily mean there is an transparent method i can go through to obtain an item i am seeking.
How is this not "I can choose to go get the item I want when I want it"? 'an item i am seeking' = I want it 'a transparent method' = I can choose when to do so 'i can go through to obtain' = I can get it
Crafting either let's players get what they want when they want it regardless of what the DM intends, or is not qualitatively different than the current system where the players either get what they get (only now it is ingredients & formulae rather than items) or they ask the DM if they can get a particular item (only now they ask for ingredients & formulae rather than items). It's a different flavour for sure - rather than seeking out history of an item to try to locate it and questing to find it, you instead research how to create such an item then go questing to obtain the ingredients - but the fundamental set up is the same.
You could simply replace it with a "As a DM you may want ask your players what magic items their character is looking for and use that as inspiration for a quest where they can seek it out." And have essentially the same outcome for players.
For a crafting system to add value to the game, it should be mechanically fun and interesting in itself, not simply be a means to an end (obtaining magic items).
transparent method doesnt mean i can choose when to do so, unless you are broadly talking about choosing to try to make an item.
Lets look at some crafting systems that exist in games.
You have monster hunter, earch item crafted requires you to kill certain monsters, some requiring you to break specific parts in order to obtain it. Can you do it whenever you want? I mean once you have done everything you need to do, sure. But before you can kill the monster, you have to have access to a place the monster exists, which in the game, is done by completing story missions, and beating weaker monsters to get the stronger monsters locations. You have to beat the monster itself, and you have to develop the smithy npc (which usually follows allong with the story naturally i believe). So can a brand new player obtain OP items? no. You might not be able to obtain the item you want without playing for 20-30 hours, fighting an epic enemy multiple times, and targeting some specific means of defeating that enemy, (like breaking its horn before you kill it. its a crafting system, with a transparent method, but the player cant just get an item whenever they want, and will only have items when they get appropriately skilled and have invested enough in the game.
you got FFXIV. crafting items has its own leveling system, which involves crafting lower level items, obtaining new skills, and successfully using abilities in a sort of puzzle. Crafting itself is essentially a battle, where you need to fill a progress bar, quality bar, and deal with random flaws. To create the best items you need crafting gear, which yuo get from essentially crafting challenges from a guild. You need rare drops from monsters, and you need to actually do the crafting puzzle/battle. Can a player get the item whenever they want it? no they have to put in tons of effort crafting other items, (leveling up) they need to put in effort aquiring special materials (beating level appropriate monsters multiple times, or gathering rare items in the world) and they need to win the "battle" of crafting.
Not saying this is what the system should be modeled on, but showing that what a well designed crafting system does, is set forth a knowable method for obtaining something that is balanced within the game, and generally reinforces the type of play the game wants to highlight. Its almost never a system by which you can get whatever you want, when you want it.
rather than now, where most items, from the player perspective are randomly given.
See this is what I don't understand. The only time I've felt like items are randomly given is playing on a West Marches server where every quest had to give players magic items regardless of whether it made sense or not.
Otherwise, magic items always either were clearly selected by the DM so that everyone in the party got something useful to them, or they had clear narrative links - e.g. a hunter gives you a magic bow, a temple to a fire god has a flaming sword in it, the lair of a hag has a grimoire and a wand of polymorph, etc... etc...
That could easily mean there is an transparent method i can go through to obtain an item i am seeking.
How is this not "I can choose to go get the item I want when I want it"? 'an item i am seeking' = I want it 'a transparent method' = I can choose when to do so 'i can go through to obtain' = I can get it
Crafting either let's players get what they want when they want it regardless of what the DM intends, or is not qualitatively different than the current system where the players either get what they get (only now it is ingredients & formulae rather than items) or they ask the DM if they can get a particular item (only now they ask for ingredients & formulae rather than items). It's a different flavour for sure - rather than seeking out history of an item to try to locate it and questing to find it, you instead research how to create such an item then go questing to obtain the ingredients - but the fundamental set up is the same.
You could simply replace it with a "As a DM you may want ask your players what magic items their character is looking for and use that as inspiration for a quest where they can seek it out." And have essentially the same outcome for players.
For a crafting system to add value to the game, it should be mechanically fun and interesting in itself, not simply be a means to an end (obtaining magic items).
transparent method doesnt mean i can choose when to do so, unless you are broadly talking about choosing to try to make an item.
Lets look at some crafting systems that exist in games.
You have monster hunter, earch item crafted requires you to kill certain monsters, some requiring you to break specific parts in order to obtain it. Can you do it whenever you want? I mean once you have done everything you need to do, sure. But before you can kill the monster, you have to have access to a place the monster exists, which in the game, is done by completing story missions, and beating weaker monsters to get the stronger monsters locations. You have to beat the monster itself, and you have to develop the smithy npc (which usually follows allong with the story naturally i believe). So can a brand new player obtain OP items? no. You might not be able to obtain the item you want without playing for 20-30 hours, fighting an epic enemy multiple times, and targeting some specific means of defeating that enemy, (like breaking its horn before you kill it. its a crafting system, with a transparent method, but the player cant just get an item whenever they want, and will only have items when they get appropriately skilled and have invested enough in the game.
you got FFXIV. crafting items has its own leveling system, which involves crafting lower level items, obtaining new skills, and successfully using abilities in a sort of puzzle. Crafting itself is essentially a battle, where you need to fill a progress bar, quality bar, and deal with random flaws. To create the best items you need crafting gear, which yuo get from essentially crafting challenges from a guild. You need rare drops from monsters, and you need to actually do the crafting puzzle/battle. Can a player get the item whenever they want it? no they have to put in tons of effort crafting other items, (leveling up) they need to put in effort aquiring special materials (beating level appropriate monsters multiple times, or gathering rare items in the world) and they need to win the "battle" of crafting.
Not saying this is what the system should be modeled on, but showing that what a well designed crafting system does, is set forth a knowable method for obtaining something that is balanced within the game, and generally reinforces the type of play the game wants to highlight. Its almost never a system by which you can get whatever you want, when you want it.
“Ask your DM if you can craft the item” is a knowable system; it doesn’t guarantee the answer will be “yes”, but the steps themselves are clear and simple. And codifying a definite way for players to get specific items without the DM’s input is outside of D&D’s model, as rewards an encounters are managed by the DM, not a part of a pre-built system as in the two games you referenced.
What I would want to see is recipes. I need to have components for a spell, you could argue forging a sword is the same thing. You need a certain quanity of iron ore. You need a certain quantity of carbon. you make the appropriate skill checks, and you come up with a serviceable sword blade. Then, fit and finishing. Most importantly, I want a process in which I can enchant it. Forging a mundane sword is mostly useless to me. Forging a sword and adding enchantments and enhancements is very useful. How do I create wands? How do I create magic rings.
I can and have made up processes for this before, but what I'm never sure on is, am I being fair and balanced with this?
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Hard recipes just make it more complicated than it needs to be, imo. Note that most video games with an involved crafting system are single player or MMO and so you're only using your time when you run around gathering the components. Calling for a full recipe in D&D would just exacerbate the issue people already have with components and formulae. The purpose of the gold cost is to handwave the mundane components of crafting. In terms of having the experience of crafting and enchanting, I'd suggest just roleplaying it with your DM once you have everything you need.
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Except the game is not balanced around players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want. It is balanced around the class features, with the DM managing the acquisition of magic items so that they don’t trivialize the plot.
a crafting system doesnt mean you get what you want when you want. It usually has all sorts of limitations and factors. It also would be an optional system, so really its still DM control, just the DM deciding they like whatever rule system they came up with for obtaining magic items.
and, DMs can handle magic items, the difference from optimized player to normal player usually far outweighs a magic item in power swing. And really the DM needs to adapt encounters to whatever table they play at. Some tables struggle with fights they should be able to win easily, and others can fight 10 CR higher than themselves. One of the big things they need to do in the DMG is make it more clear to the average DM how to adjust encounters/monsters/etc so they arent scared of the players playing well, or getting an item.
And yeah, they generally expect that players will have magic items, there exists charts that show how many each player is expected to get. its not a big problem.
Who's proposing a crafting system that the DM has no control over? I haven't seen a single post to that effect, but you keep implying that the goal of a streamlined crafting system is player-led chaos?
The DM can literally alter, overrule or veto anything they want whenever they want, and they are under no obligation to allow players to use optional rules if they don't want them to. The idea behind a simplified crafting system is that it should follow roughly the same accessibility you would have for obtaining items directly, only with an added crafting step that gives you more choice over what you obtain.
That's it. The DM can allow that choice to be as open or as restrictive as they wish. Some DMs are happy to adapt to players throwing them a curve-ball, others will prefer to keep things more moderated so it doesn't get out of hand; neither is wrong.
But if an official crafting system is made overly complicated and overly restrictive as standard, that only makes it harder to use. It's much easier to take a well defined but streamlined system and add your own restrictions (e.g- point players to the crafting rules and say "Here's what you can choose from" or "Let me know what you want to make and I'll say if that's okay"), than it is to take a restrictive system and open it up again (as you'd have to point to the rules and give them a list of sentences and/or sections to ignore).
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It just seems to me like a lot of people want to basically just be able to announce they’ve crafted an item as a fait accompli, which then creates the dynamic of the DM taking away something they already had if the DM feels for one reason or another that they don’t want to allow that item at that particular point. Imo crafting magic items does need to be an area where you need the DM’s permission to proceed. Formula and components help narratively codify why that would be- and make crafting something more interesting than the item essentially just appearing in the campaign- but it’s the codification of the fact that crafting requires DM permission that I consider essential.
I think you'll find that nobody mentioned anything about "players being able to get at any and all magic items they so wish at the schedule they want".
RealBoz did:
And from experience on several Westmarches Servers, I'd estimate ~20% of players want exactly that : the exact items they want (after having searched all the books to find the 'items that work best with their build' - i.e. the most powerful items of each tier of rarity), when they think they deserve to have them.
RealBoz wanted to be able to pick items, and have general agency, that doesnt mean i get whatever i want whenever i want. That could easily mean there is an transparent method i can go through to obtain an item i am seeking, rather than now, where most items, from the player perspective are randomly given.
that method would likely have a method, and requirements that limit how often, what you can obtain at what points, and how to get items, as thats basically what a crafting system is. And that method would be approved by the GM because basically almost everything in the DMG is DM suggestions
Wow, what an... exotic reading of what I wrote.
If I squint, I guess I can see how one might misread what I wrote, so let me expand upon it.
"magic item crafting" - The act of adding into the game a most often permanent item with magical enchantments, one that either already exists in the books, or follows the hypothetical rules of creation of such an item, through means of player and character action that utilizes skills and magical abilities.
"full player control" - The player has full control of what is crafted, as opposed to the 'heavily guided' approach exemplified by the DM handing out 'an icy handguard' that can be used to make a +cold damage melee weapon.
"not random stuff" - In contrast to campaigns in which DMs outright ask what players want, DMs guess what players might want, DMs throw out magic items left and right hoping a player likes one of them, or the Adventurers-R-Us Magic Mart.
"I want everything I want whenever I want it" is a misrepresentation of every comment in the thread, including mine.
And I’ve said nothing promoting the idea crafting should be random; as I have outlined repeatedly, the benefits of the component and formula are related to storytelling, worldbuilding, and codifying that you need an explicit green light from the DM to craft. I’m not saying you have to roll a table to see what you make. And I’ve played with DMs who let you give them a shopping list of magic items and came back with the ones you could find to purchase and their prices, so no crafting is not the sole possible means of getting at items you want.
Ever get tired of arguing against things nobody has said?
See this is what I don't understand. The only time I've felt like items are randomly given is playing on a West Marches server where every quest had to give players magic items regardless of whether it made sense or not.
Otherwise, magic items always either were clearly selected by the DM so that everyone in the party got something useful to them, or they had clear narrative links - e.g. a hunter gives you a magic bow, a temple to a fire god has a flaming sword in it, the lair of a hag has a grimoire and a wand of polymorph, etc... etc...
How is this not "I can choose to go get the item I want when I want it"?
'an item i am seeking' = I want it
'a transparent method' = I can choose when to do so
'i can go through to obtain' = I can get it
Crafting either let's players get what they want when they want it regardless of what the DM intends, or is not qualitatively different than the current system where the players either get what they get (only now it is ingredients & formulae rather than items) or they ask the DM if they can get a particular item (only now they ask for ingredients & formulae rather than items). It's a different flavour for sure - rather than seeking out history of an item to try to locate it and questing to find it, you instead research how to create such an item then go questing to obtain the ingredients - but the fundamental set up is the same.
You could simply replace it with a "As a DM you may want ask your players what magic items their character is looking for and use that as inspiration for a quest where they can seek it out." And have essentially the same outcome for players.
For a crafting system to add value to the game, it should be mechanically fun and interesting in itself, not simply be a means to an end (obtaining magic items).
There’s what people explicitly say, and then there’s subtext, implications, and consequences.
The mechanics of how crafting works isn't what really does that though; a simple system means you need a component, and you need for the actual crafting to occur, but DMs and players are free to make that as simple or as complex as they want.
Just because your DM gave you a rare component doesn't mean the next step has to be "pick an item, now you have that item". Do you even know how to make the item? Does anyone in the current village/town/city? If it's a rare item it needs rare skills, just going to the smithy and making any halfways decent Smith's Tools check probably isn't going to cut it.
If you don't have the component, where are you going to get it? Do you need to seek out a particular creature? Raid a particular dungeon? Barter with a mage's guild who may want something in return? Heist?
The crafting system doesn't need to specify any of that, because that's down to the DM and/or players, it's no different to any other aspect of the game; if you want something, maybe you need to do something else to get it. This isn't unique to crafting; all a crafting system needs to do is give the very basics, and maybe some examples of how you might weave it into a campaign in a more interesting ways if what you want isn't just to give the player a redeemable voucher (though some DMs will be fine with that).
It really staggers me that the argument against a crafting system being kept simple essentially boils down to all players being powergaming munchkins and all DMs being feckless idiots; those aren't problems that any crafting system can solve, but by trying to do so you can definitely end up with a crafting system that nobody will want to use, because most people don't want a 40 page section they need to memorise just to stand a chance of being able to successfully craft a mitten.
And this is a game where loads of things are massively simplified; sword fights mechanically in D&D are just two creatures hacking each other to pieces until one of them dies, maybe you add the occasional ability or reaction into the mix. Clearly the goal was simplicity first, but you can add as much complexity mechanically or narratively on top as you want to, allowing you to turn an unrealistic hack-fest into an exciting back and forth with a decisive killing blow, rather than just "your number hit zero first so I win".
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As I’ve said several times, I’m not going to die on the hill that questing for the component is a vital component- although it does make the sequence significantly more engaging from a narrative sense. If a DM just wants it to be a matter “I’d like to craft this item” “Sounds good, that will be X gold and Y time”, that’s fine. But preemptively acquiring generic components is both pointless bookkeeping and narratively unsatisfying when the net effect is the exchange I described above. Just let the DM narrate how you ended up with the necessary components at the time of crafting in that case.
And while no, I don’t believe every player is some power-gaming munchkin, it only takes one to ruin an evening and possibly a campaign when they’re trying to squeeze everything they can from some ambiguous wording, so clearly codifying the basic principle that it’s up to the DM to approve the acquisition of a magic item is a simple common sense measure to avoid protracted arguments about the issue. If the DM has been good about working with the players and vice-versa it should just be a formality, and if not then a) trying to end run them is unlikely to address the actual problems at the table and b) one could wonder why someone who feels they aren’t getting the experience they want is still at the table. And no one is advocating for some ludicrously complex and restrictive system.
To clarify my point:
For crafting to be a valuable addition to the game, it should provide a new source of "fun" or "enjoyment". Different players have different things they find fun or enjoyable, and the game tries to provide a diversity of mechanics so that the broadest amount of players enjoy it. So what types of fun and enjoyment can a crafting system offer:
1) Optimization - for some players making big numbers go up is rewarding in itself, crafting could provide a means for these players to obtain the most optimal magic items for their build, without depending on the whims of the DM. [A good example of this is Skyrim enchanting or Minecraft survival mode]
2) Customization - for some players being able to customize the character, gear, and property to express themselves artistically is enjoyable in itself. Crafting could provide a means of creating custom non-magical (or magical) items to decorate their character with. [An example of this type of crafting is Minecraft creative mode or the Sims or any complex character creator]
3) Exploration - for some players exploration and discovery is enjoyable in itself. Crafting could provide a new avenue of experimentation to discover formulae for different items. [A good example of this type of crafting is Skyrim potion making]
4) Narrative Progression - for some players it is progressing the story that has the greatest enjoyment. Crafting could provide a way to create keys (in the abstract sense) to unlock the next chapter of the story.
5) Tactics - for some players it is planning and implementing tactics and strategy that has the greatest enjoyment. Crafting could provide a novel way to create various items (non-magical or magical) to allow creative and interesting tactics not currently available in the rules. [A good example of this type of crafting is the Witcher potions & blade oils]
6) Social - for some players talking & hanging out with friends is the enjoyment of the game. Crafting could provide a mechanism for interacting with NPC (I guess?).
Now then, out of all of these options only one of them requires crafting to primarily revolve around creating permanent magical items - that's #1 - Optimization. Which is why that is the point I focus on whenever the crafting discussion is centered on creating permanent magical items. If you have another reason for what kind of player and what type of enjoyment demands crafting to be focused on the creation of permanent magical items then I'm all ears, I'd love to hear it.
I sometimes miss the granularity of 3e's Magic Item creation rules, but I don't miss the overly-mechanics-forward aspect of it. I wish there was a way to be as concrete as 3e's version, but as minimalist as 5e's version... or a very good compromise that gets you the "craft anything, but with concrete balance" in as few rules as possible. The Artificer rules actually come close to this, but it's an Artificer specific thing, and they aren't permanent (they end when the Artificer dies or re-allocates them to another object). And the Rune system is complete disjoint from it.
transparent method doesnt mean i can choose when to do so, unless you are broadly talking about choosing to try to make an item.
Lets look at some crafting systems that exist in games.
You have monster hunter, earch item crafted requires you to kill certain monsters, some requiring you to break specific parts in order to obtain it. Can you do it whenever you want? I mean once you have done everything you need to do, sure. But before you can kill the monster, you have to have access to a place the monster exists, which in the game, is done by completing story missions, and beating weaker monsters to get the stronger monsters locations. You have to beat the monster itself, and you have to develop the smithy npc (which usually follows allong with the story naturally i believe). So can a brand new player obtain OP items? no. You might not be able to obtain the item you want without playing for 20-30 hours, fighting an epic enemy multiple times, and targeting some specific means of defeating that enemy, (like breaking its horn before you kill it. its a crafting system, with a transparent method, but the player cant just get an item whenever they want, and will only have items when they get appropriately skilled and have invested enough in the game.
you got FFXIV. crafting items has its own leveling system, which involves crafting lower level items, obtaining new skills, and successfully using abilities in a sort of puzzle. Crafting itself is essentially a battle, where you need to fill a progress bar, quality bar, and deal with random flaws. To create the best items you need crafting gear, which yuo get from essentially crafting challenges from a guild. You need rare drops from monsters, and you need to actually do the crafting puzzle/battle. Can a player get the item whenever they want it? no they have to put in tons of effort crafting other items, (leveling up) they need to put in effort aquiring special materials (beating level appropriate monsters multiple times, or gathering rare items in the world) and they need to win the "battle" of crafting.
Not saying this is what the system should be modeled on, but showing that what a well designed crafting system does, is set forth a knowable method for obtaining something that is balanced within the game, and generally reinforces the type of play the game wants to highlight. Its almost never a system by which you can get whatever you want, when you want it.
“Ask your DM if you can craft the item” is a knowable system; it doesn’t guarantee the answer will be “yes”, but the steps themselves are clear and simple. And codifying a definite way for players to get specific items without the DM’s input is outside of D&D’s model, as rewards an encounters are managed by the DM, not a part of a pre-built system as in the two games you referenced.
What I would want to see is recipes. I need to have components for a spell, you could argue forging a sword is the same thing. You need a certain quanity of iron ore. You need a certain quantity of carbon. you make the appropriate skill checks, and you come up with a serviceable sword blade. Then, fit and finishing. Most importantly, I want a process in which I can enchant it. Forging a mundane sword is mostly useless to me. Forging a sword and adding enchantments and enhancements is very useful. How do I create wands? How do I create magic rings.
I can and have made up processes for this before, but what I'm never sure on is, am I being fair and balanced with this?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Hard recipes just make it more complicated than it needs to be, imo. Note that most video games with an involved crafting system are single player or MMO and so you're only using your time when you run around gathering the components. Calling for a full recipe in D&D would just exacerbate the issue people already have with components and formulae. The purpose of the gold cost is to handwave the mundane components of crafting. In terms of having the experience of crafting and enchanting, I'd suggest just roleplaying it with your DM once you have everything you need.