Mammoth is NOT the only CR 6 beast available. The giant ape is there, as is the t-rex, and the giant crab, both of which have more hit points than the mammoth. In addition, the sperm whale is available when the druid is in the ocean.
I just checked, the Tyrannosaurus Rex is CR 8 as you can see and the Giant Ape is CR 7. The only Beast with CR 6 that showed up when I used the filters on D&DB is the Mammoth, yes.
Mammoth is NOT the only CR 6 beast available. The giant ape is there, as is the t-rex, and the giant crab, both of which have more hit points than the mammoth.
Giant ape is CR 7, T-rex is CR 8. Huge Giant Crab is CR 8 (Giant Crab is CR 1/8, which doesn't help). None of them are available to wild shape, which maxes out at CR 6 (they're available to polymorph but that's a completely different issue).
Moon druids need to be limited to beasts in the player's hand book. Player's really shouldn't be flipping through the monster manual as they are built as DM side books. It also prevents WoTC from accidentally buffing moon druids every time a new monster statbook is released.
Also, maybe it would be in moon druid's best interest to just limit them to CR 1 beasts, but buff those beasts based on level. Higher CR beasts aren't that great and CR 1 has a good deal of variety.
I know I'm the lone voice in this, but I still am a proponent of wild shape NOT conveying the beast's hit points as a buff to the druid.
Mammoth is NOT the only CR 6 beast available. The giant ape is there, as is the t-rex, and the giant crab, both of which have more hit points than the mammoth. In addition, the sperm whale is available when the druid is in the ocean.
When the moon druid has UNLIMITED wild shapes available, this pool of hit point buffs means they're unkillable. And despite what most here seem to think, it's easily abused at lower levels as well.
So the biggest thing I NEED from the druid - especially the moon druid - is the change to wild shape hit points we've seen in previous UAs.
Everyone knows and agrees Moon Druid is broken OP at levels 2-4, and level 20 (but so is everything else at level 20 - I mean Zealot Barb is literally unkillable at level 14 but there's no mob with pitchfork demanding it be nerfed into the ground). But do you agreed it is underpowered at level 7-9 due to the pathetic scaling of Combat Wildshape until you get Elemental form?
Everyone knows and agrees Moon Druid is broken OP at levels 2-4, and level 20 (but so is everything else at level 20 - I mean Zealot Barb is literally unkillable at level 14 but there's no mob with pitchfork demanding it be nerfed into the ground). But do you agreed it is underpowered at level 7-9 due to the pathetic scaling of Combat Wildshape until you get Elemental form?
Using wild shape for combat is essentially pointless after level 4. Elemental form is pretty tanky when first obtained, but it has low accuracy and damage even at level 10.
I don't agree. I've DMed a player with a moon druid at those levels, and I had to throw some very homebrewed monsters with significantly higher CRs to create scenarios where they were actually challenged/felt threatened. Admittedly, this is partly due to the druid having access to the polymorph spell, which allows for higher CR transformations (and let me tell you I also think that spell needs to be nerfed) but that actually just proves my point: with access to that spell, a moon druid of ninth level is looking at hundreds of hit points to buff (100+ for the polymorph spell, and theoretically 150 or more for two wild shapes) in just one combat encounter alone, and that's without any healing from potions or spells.
Agreed, BTW, with Path of the Zealot. It's a subclass I don't allow for that very reason.
I don't agree. I've DMed a player with a moon druid at those levels, and I had to throw some very homebrewed monsters with significantly higher CRs to create scenarios where they were actually challenged/felt threatened. Admittedly, this is partly due to the druid having access to the polymorph spell, which allows for higher CR transformations (and let me tell you I also think that spell needs to be nerfed) but that actually just proves my point: with access to that spell, a moon druid of ninth level is looking at hundreds of hit points to buff (100+ for the polymorph spell, and theoretically 150 or more for two wild shapes) in just one combat encounter alone, and that's without any healing from potions or spells.
Agreed, BTW, with Path of the Zealot. It's a subclass I don't allow for that very reason.
Polymorph and Wildshape aren't the same thing at all, and Polymorph is not a Druid-exclusive spell. You're calling for a nerf of a class feature that has nothing to do with what was causing the problem at your table.
I don't agree. I've DMed a player with a moon druid at those levels, and I had to throw some very homebrewed monsters with significantly higher CRs to create scenarios where they were actually challenged/felt threatened.
Yes, a wild shape druid is really hard to kill -- but the problem is that they're also safe to ignore while the monsters kill the rest of the party, because their offense is atrocious.
We definitely need to see some examples of the animals from 5.1, and also see if there will be more options for the circle of the moon at higher levels to get a better idea for the balance of Wild Shape and this subclass.
I agree that Wild Shape's armor should change, perhaps animal's AC + wisdom bonus, as well as use his spell save when Wild Shape forces another creature to a saving throw.
Maybe I would modify ELEMENTAL FURY and its improvement:
Primal Strike deals 1d4 or 1d6 additional damage for EACH attack with a weapon or Beast form's attack in Wild Shape.
Yes, yes, if the druid only makes 1 weapon attack and except for the circle of the moon, the Beast Form's attacks in Wild Shape are not usually multiple, but it would also include the possibilities of an additional attack with a reaction or thanks to a second weapon. using an additional action, it would not be very useful in the short term outside the circle of the moon (Wild Shape) or multiclassing to have an EXTRA attack, but here comes its improvement:
IMPROVED ELEMENTAL FURY:
Potent Spellcasting: Grant constitution save proficiency. (Something logical for a class with a great predominance in concentration spells, which at some point learns to lose it less frequently.) Primal Strike: Grant an EXTRA attack, both for the druid and for his Wild Shape, if the latter already had EXTRA attack for any subclass, this is improved by granting 1 additional. (Very late compared to the other classes, but logical for an internal alternative to a full caster, and would thus be getting more usefulness out of Shillelagh. It also presents a way to discourage 5-level multiclassing in another subclass if it is only to obtain an attack extra to take advantage of more Primal Strike, you'll expect 8 levels instead of 5, but it won't hurt your spellcasting.)
I don't agree. I've DMed a player with a moon druid at those levels, and I had to throw some very homebrewed monsters with significantly higher CRs to create scenarios where they were actually challenged/felt threatened. Admittedly, this is partly due to the druid having access to the polymorph spell, which allows for higher CR transformations (and let me tell you I also think that spell needs to be nerfed) but that actually just proves my point: with access to that spell, a moon druid of ninth level is looking at hundreds of hit points to buff (100+ for the polymorph spell, and theoretically 150 or more for two wild shapes) in just one combat encounter alone, and that's without any healing from potions or spells.
Agreed, BTW, with Path of the Zealot. It's a subclass I don't allow for that very reason.
Polymorph is a spell widely available to a large number of classes - Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Trickery Cleric, and Druid. If Polymorph was causing a problem in your game it has NOTHING to do with Moon Druid, so your anger is completely misplaced.
I'm so tired of people bashing Moon Druid for things that have nothing to do with the subclass. I've played one now from level 3-14, and once we reached level 5 I was never the most powerful character in the party. Moon druid is not OP.
Yes agreed. It should start at CR 1/2 at level 2, be CR 1 at Level 4, CR 2 at Level 6, CR 3 at level 6, and CR 6 at level 8.
It would've been so easy to just adjust the CR scaling like this and remove infinite wildshape at level 20. Moon Druid really didn't need a full redesign, yet here we are.
Out of curiosity, did you mean to have CR2 and 3 both reached at level 6? Also, if we're hitting CR6 at level 8, why not let it go higher? Polymorph can hit CR8 and it always seemed weird to me that Wildshape, a unique class feature for THE shapeshifter subclass, couldn't.
CR8 at level 14, maybe? So druids can turn into Giant Ape and Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Out of curiosity, did you mean to have CR2 and 3 both reached at level 6? Also, if we're hitting CR6 at level 8, why not let it go higher? Polymorph can hit CR8 and it always seemed weird to me that Wildshape, a unique class feature for THE shapeshifter subclass, couldn't.
That's mostly a problem with polymorph. Given that the general rule for spells in 5e is that their effects are based on spell level, not some other level, polymorph should be limited to CR = spell level, not CR = character level.
I don't agree. I've DMed a player with a moon druid at those levels, and I had to throw some very homebrewed monsters with significantly higher CRs to create scenarios where they were actually challenged/felt threatened.
Yes, a wild shape druid is really hard to kill -- but the problem is that they're also safe to ignore while the monsters kill the rest of the party, because their offense is atrocious.
My personal opinion is I think moon druid should get either spells no one else has access to that buff their form or some ability to expend spell slots while in wild shape to buff themselves. Something like a level 1 spell slot buffs your AC by X for 10 minutes, a spell slot to add flight to your form, a spell slot you can burn to increase your to hit by +x in wild shape form, a spell slot to burn to add a blink effect whatever. Come up with a curated list from basic numbers buffs and from monsters/beasts that they can add to for a duration at the cost of a slot.
I think the flaw with the moon druids wild shape is if its good enough on its own then full casting on top of it is overkill, and if its not good enough to actively use it feels pointless. But if it uses slots draining your casting in order to get it into the combat effective range it balances out.
"Should I beat on the thing that's doing low damage, or the thing that's doing high damage?" is not a hard tactical choice, your average MMO aggro system will figure that part out. Sure, it might take a round for the monsters to figure out who's actually dangerous, but by doing low damage, you're giving them the chance to figure that out.
"Should I beat on the thing that's doing low damage, or the thing that's doing high damage?" is not a hard tactical choice, your average MMO aggro system will figure that part out. Sure, it might take a round for the monsters to figure out who's actually dangerous, but by doing low damage, you're giving them the chance to figure that out.
The damage on a hit is not going to be that low, they will just miss more. How does the monster know the miss was because the wild shaped form at +4 to hit vs they just screwed up. And after even 2 rounds of give to the druid, they kind of served their purpose as a distraction since most fights are in the 3ish round range anyways.
The damage on a hit is not going to be that low, they will just miss more. How does the monster know the miss was because the wild shaped form at +4 to hit vs they just screwed up. And after even 2 rounds of give to the druid, they kind of served their purpose as a distraction since most fights are in the 3ish round range anyways.
The monster doesn't need to know; the measure is just "how much damage did it actually do" (yes, someone who normally has low offense but lands a couple crits round 1 is probably going to get more attacks than they really deserve). In any case, being unkillable in a 3 round fight generally doesn't matter because no-one was going to be in serious danger anyway, and the exceptions tend to involve large area effects.
That's mostly a problem with polymorph. Given that the general rule for spells in 5e is that their effects are based on spell level, not some other level, polymorph should be limited to CR = spell level, not CR = character level.
That would be an easy way to balance the spell out. Especially since it has the other application of being a very good control effect too.
That said, I still would like Wildshape to reach CR8. Wildshape struggles at higher levels anyway, and there's no more infinite wildshape to worry about at 20. Plus who wouldn't want their choice between turning into King Kong or Godzilla as the pinnacle of their wildshaping capabilities?
Though obviously, as with CR6, we'd need more variety in beasts at those levels for it to feel worthwhile.
My personal opinion is I think moon druid should get either spells no one else has access to that buff their form or some ability to expend spell slots while in wild shape to buff themselves. Something like a level 1 spell slot buffs your AC by X for 10 minutes, a spell slot to add flight to your form, a spell slot you can burn to increase your to hit by +x in wild shape form, a spell slot to burn to add a blink effect whatever. Come up with a curated list from basic numbers buffs and from monsters/beasts that they can add to for a duration at the cost of a slot.
I think the flaw with the moon druids wild shape is if its good enough on its own then full casting on top of it is overkill, and if its not good enough to actively use it feels pointless. But if it uses slots draining your casting in order to get it into the combat effective range it balances out.
I agree. Let moon Druids, whose fantasy is turning into a beast for fighting use their primary resource, spell slots, to fuel that transformation in various ways. They’re shaping that primal magic into buffs for their wildshape.
All the other Druids can use their primary resource, spell slots, for casting and their wildshape for utility, or other subclass options like they do now anyway.
I just checked, the Tyrannosaurus Rex is CR 8 as you can see and the Giant Ape is CR 7. The only Beast with CR 6 that showed up when I used the filters on D&DB is the Mammoth, yes.
Giant ape is CR 7, T-rex is CR 8. Huge Giant Crab is CR 8 (Giant Crab is CR 1/8, which doesn't help). None of them are available to wild shape, which maxes out at CR 6 (they're available to polymorph but that's a completely different issue).
Everyone knows and agrees Moon Druid is broken OP at levels 2-4, and level 20 (but so is everything else at level 20 - I mean Zealot Barb is literally unkillable at level 14 but there's no mob with pitchfork demanding it be nerfed into the ground). But do you agreed it is underpowered at level 7-9 due to the pathetic scaling of Combat Wildshape until you get Elemental form?
Using wild shape for combat is essentially pointless after level 4. Elemental form is pretty tanky when first obtained, but it has low accuracy and damage even at level 10.
I don't agree. I've DMed a player with a moon druid at those levels, and I had to throw some very homebrewed monsters with significantly higher CRs to create scenarios where they were actually challenged/felt threatened. Admittedly, this is partly due to the druid having access to the polymorph spell, which allows for higher CR transformations (and let me tell you I also think that spell needs to be nerfed) but that actually just proves my point: with access to that spell, a moon druid of ninth level is looking at hundreds of hit points to buff (100+ for the polymorph spell, and theoretically 150 or more for two wild shapes) in just one combat encounter alone, and that's without any healing from potions or spells.
Agreed, BTW, with Path of the Zealot. It's a subclass I don't allow for that very reason.
Polymorph and Wildshape aren't the same thing at all, and Polymorph is not a Druid-exclusive spell. You're calling for a nerf of a class feature that has nothing to do with what was causing the problem at your table.
Yes, a wild shape druid is really hard to kill -- but the problem is that they're also safe to ignore while the monsters kill the rest of the party, because their offense is atrocious.
We definitely need to see some examples of the animals from 5.1, and also see if there will be more options for the circle of the moon at higher levels to get a better idea for the balance of Wild Shape and this subclass.
I agree that Wild Shape's armor should change, perhaps animal's AC + wisdom bonus, as well as use his spell save when Wild Shape forces another creature to a saving throw.
Maybe I would modify ELEMENTAL FURY and its improvement:
Primal Strike deals 1d4 or 1d6 additional damage for EACH attack with a weapon or Beast form's attack in Wild Shape.
Yes, yes, if the druid only makes 1 weapon attack and except for the circle of the moon, the Beast Form's attacks in Wild Shape are not usually multiple, but it would also include the possibilities of an additional attack with a reaction or thanks to a second weapon. using an additional action, it would not be very useful in the short term outside the circle of the moon (Wild Shape) or multiclassing to have an EXTRA attack, but here comes its improvement:
IMPROVED ELEMENTAL FURY:
Potent Spellcasting: Grant constitution save proficiency. (Something logical for a class with a great predominance in concentration spells, which at some point learns to lose it less frequently.)
Primal Strike: Grant an EXTRA attack, both for the druid and for his Wild Shape, if the latter already had EXTRA attack for any subclass, this is improved by granting 1 additional. (Very late compared to the other classes, but logical for an internal alternative to a full caster, and would thus be getting more usefulness out of Shillelagh. It also presents a way to discourage 5-level multiclassing in another subclass if it is only to obtain an attack extra to take advantage of more Primal Strike, you'll expect 8 levels instead of 5, but it won't hurt your spellcasting.)
Polymorph is a spell widely available to a large number of classes - Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Trickery Cleric, and Druid. If Polymorph was causing a problem in your game it has NOTHING to do with Moon Druid, so your anger is completely misplaced.
I'm so tired of people bashing Moon Druid for things that have nothing to do with the subclass. I've played one now from level 3-14, and once we reached level 5 I was never the most powerful character in the party. Moon druid is not OP.
Well, other than level 2-4. CR limit should have been lower at level 2 but increase faster with level.
Yes agreed. It should start at CR 1/2 at level 2, be CR 1 at Level 4, CR 2 at Level 6, CR 3 at level 6, and CR 6 at level 8.
It would've been so easy to just adjust the CR scaling like this and remove infinite wildshape at level 20. Moon Druid really didn't need a full redesign, yet here we are.
Out of curiosity, did you mean to have CR2 and 3 both reached at level 6? Also, if we're hitting CR6 at level 8, why not let it go higher? Polymorph can hit CR8 and it always seemed weird to me that Wildshape, a unique class feature for THE shapeshifter subclass, couldn't.
CR8 at level 14, maybe? So druids can turn into Giant Ape and Tyrannosaurus Rex.
That's mostly a problem with polymorph. Given that the general rule for spells in 5e is that their effects are based on spell level, not some other level, polymorph should be limited to CR = spell level, not CR = character level.
Do the enemies just know that automatically.
My personal opinion is I think moon druid should get either spells no one else has access to that buff their form or some ability to expend spell slots while in wild shape to buff themselves. Something like a level 1 spell slot buffs your AC by X for 10 minutes, a spell slot to add flight to your form, a spell slot you can burn to increase your to hit by +x in wild shape form, a spell slot to burn to add a blink effect whatever. Come up with a curated list from basic numbers buffs and from monsters/beasts that they can add to for a duration at the cost of a slot.
I think the flaw with the moon druids wild shape is if its good enough on its own then full casting on top of it is overkill, and if its not good enough to actively use it feels pointless. But if it uses slots draining your casting in order to get it into the combat effective range it balances out.
"Should I beat on the thing that's doing low damage, or the thing that's doing high damage?" is not a hard tactical choice, your average MMO aggro system will figure that part out. Sure, it might take a round for the monsters to figure out who's actually dangerous, but by doing low damage, you're giving them the chance to figure that out.
The damage on a hit is not going to be that low, they will just miss more. How does the monster know the miss was because the wild shaped form at +4 to hit vs they just screwed up. And after even 2 rounds of give to the druid, they kind of served their purpose as a distraction since most fights are in the 3ish round range anyways.
The monster doesn't need to know; the measure is just "how much damage did it actually do" (yes, someone who normally has low offense but lands a couple crits round 1 is probably going to get more attacks than they really deserve). In any case, being unkillable in a 3 round fight generally doesn't matter because no-one was going to be in serious danger anyway, and the exceptions tend to involve large area effects.
That would be an easy way to balance the spell out. Especially since it has the other application of being a very good control effect too.
That said, I still would like Wildshape to reach CR8. Wildshape struggles at higher levels anyway, and there's no more infinite wildshape to worry about at 20. Plus who wouldn't want their choice between turning into King Kong or Godzilla as the pinnacle of their wildshaping capabilities?
Though obviously, as with CR6, we'd need more variety in beasts at those levels for it to feel worthwhile.
I agree. Let moon Druids, whose fantasy is turning into a beast for fighting use their primary resource, spell slots, to fuel that transformation in various ways. They’re shaping that primal magic into buffs for their wildshape.
All the other Druids can use their primary resource, spell slots, for casting and their wildshape for utility, or other subclass options like they do now anyway.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?