what if per rules, a character healed from 1 to 50 HPs from a long rest, but their max is 100, is that an imbalance in the rules?
It depends. If all the other rules are the same, then it's probably not going to be balanced, no. The rules are currently built around the assumption that each day is balanced more or less completely individually.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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I dont see it that way, that each day is balanced. I dont see how each day is any different than another.
To the answer, no its not balanced, because half the classes half healing capabilities, and all are ignored because their healing abilities become undermined when a character can heal half their HPs without their involvement.
I dont see it that way, that each day is balanced. I dont see how each day is any different than another.
That's kinda my point? If a character wakes up with max hp, goes through a full day of adventuring, and then wakes up the next day with only half their max hp, then the two days will have to be balanced vastly differently, since the character won't be working at its best the second day.
As it is, each day is basically a reset. You can balance a full day without worrying about it being too tough because the party is still beat up from the day before.
To the answer, no its not balanced, because half the classes half healing capabilities, and all are ignored because their healing abilities become undermined when a character can heal half their HPs without their involvement.
What? You're going to have to rephrase that. I got lost in all the halves.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I mean, healing half HPs from a long rest is still too much. 5 classes that can heal had nothing to do with that. They sat on their thumbs because the fighter said, nah dont bother healing me, I just need 8 hours of rest and I can do what you do by sleeping
I mean, healing half HPs from a long rest is still too much. 5 classes that can heal had nothing to do with that. They sat on their thumbs because the fighter said, nah dont bother healing me, I just need 8 hours of rest and I can do what you do by sleeping
Healing can still be useful, provided you don't just take a long rest any time you take any damage at all. Plus, what if a party doesn't have any of those 5 classes? It'd be lame for somebody to always have to play the designated healer, especially in smaller parties.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
sure, no healers in the party is possible. Thats when the DM needs to make arrangements, but that doesnt mean you make unbalanced rules that ignore 5 healing classes. Core rules have 5 healing classes, and balance suggest you take that into consideration when writing rules. Homebrew or situations should not be part of decision making
sure, no healers in the party is possible. Thats when the DM needs to make arrangements, but that doesnt mean you make unbalanced rules that ignore 5 healing classes. Core rules have 5 healing classes, and balance suggest you take that into consideration when writing rules. Homebrew or situations should not be part of decision making
The 5 "healing classes" are not ignored. You can play a Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Paladin and be perfectly viable and useful to the party. Ranger, less so, but Ranger's being updated anyways.
"Situations should not be part of decision making" is simply a mind numbing sentence. Like, it's so simple, yet so vastly incorrect, I don't know how to describe it. Of course situations should be part of decision making. Decisions do not exist in vacuums.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Situations, are not rules. Situations are on the fly decisions or homebrew ideas. When I said situations should not be part of decision making, I was referring to decisions made what core rules should be. Regardless, the fact is, a character can heal 200 HPs in 8 hours sleep without the aid of a healer, that is broken, peroid.
sure, no healers in the party is possible. Thats when the DM needs to make arrangements, but that doesnt mean you make unbalanced rules that ignore 5 healing classes. Core rules have 5 healing classes, and balance suggest you take that into consideration when writing rules. Homebrew or situations should not be part of decision making
Core rules have 5 classes with access to healing spells. That doesn't mean healing is or should be the sum total of their identity. Also, the rules are not unbalanced because clerics and such aren't forced to be healbots for the party; in point of fact, they're balanced so that combat healing is not particularly viable specifically to encourage all classes to actively participate in combat. This is a feature not a bug. Clerics still have several dedicated heal and support classes, but it's an option, not a requirement. Forcing healing via spells into the game just reduces the freedom of play, and mundane out of combat care is essentially what short and long rests do anyways. And, yet again, if you personally want less healing via rest, there are alternate rules in the DMG for that; you can find either tables or players that want to use them if that's the only way you want to play the game. Please don't try to gatekeep people who enjoy the more accessible and less restrictive format.
Ya I was going to say, I do not understand people's aversion to utilizing the option rules in the DMG to solve the issues they have with the main rules, when the optional rules specifically exist to do the thing that people are complaining the base rules don't do.
Like Healer's kit dependency rules combined with slow natural healing, combined with Gritty Realism rest rules. Takes 8 hours and a healers kit to spend any hit dice at all, takes a week of healing with slow healing and you don't recover health on a long rest instead you spend hit dice to heal after a long rest. This will prolong healing if they want.
I mean, im not looking to take weeks for a person to heal. I think a moderate amount is fine...like, 1 HD per 3 lvls and double that with a skill medic tending to you. This gives med skill another sensible use.
"I get to not suck as hard as the others, but still suck compared to Magic." is not a sensible state for a skill to be in.
Healing out of combat fast enough that you're up to 100% the next day is not a balance issue. Slowing it down, however, is, because it uses a resource that restores fully up to 100% the next day.
As I said before, using resources is part of the game, that is what creates balance. Getting something for nothing, is unbalanced. How is it people not understand resource management, expanding resources creates balance...
As I said before, using resources is part of the game, that is what creates balance. Getting something for nothing, is unbalanced. How is it people not understand resource management, expanding resources creates balance...
Then why don't you have any issue with people recovering spell slots on a long rest? That's getting something for nothing, isn't it? If characters don't sometimes get something for free, how will they not just run out of resources?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Situations, are not rules. Situations are on the fly decisions or homebrew ideas. When I said situations should not be part of decision making, I was referring to decisions made what core rules should be. Regardless, the fact is, a character can heal 200 HPs in 8 hours sleep without the aid of a healer, that is broken, peroid.
The game isnt designed that a "healer' is a necessary part of the game play. Its 100% designed that players play whatever they want to play. In the PHB hen they tell players what class to play its 100% about finding a thing you like the fantasy of, not of filling mechanical building blocks.
There is no class that is designated as a healer. There are classes that can be good at healing, but they can also never heal at all and be effective.
The purpose of person who prefers to heal the party in 5e, is a short term solution, and extending the parties per day durability. Parties with no healers need more SR and LR, their battles are more deadly, the healer is basically the best mitigation for unlucky rolls in battle. They can easily revive people, or keep another player able to be active in a fight. They are valuable but not necessary. Also, objectively SR dont heal that much, and LR are designed to reset the resources of the group. Spells return each day, so really all your design would be doing is forcing every party to have healers, and mking the recovery process take longer. Because the healers job would be healing everyone to full, and the right answer would rest for days, until healers can heal everyone to full.
The game just isnt designed to be one with hard fixed roles based on dps and healing. The game is designed that any 1-4 charachters can go on an adventure, and be viable. And truthfully few players want a game where recovery is totally based on certain characters. It just becomes a tax on gameplay.
As I said before, using resources is part of the game, that is what creates balance. Getting something for nothing, is unbalanced. How is it people not understand resource management, expanding resources creates balance...
resource management in game design is not that simple. you can have resource management that is based around a round of combat, that is based around an encounter, that is based around a few hours, or a few days. Hit dice is a resource management system. LR is a resource management system. you may prefer a different type of resource management, but that doesnt mean there is no resource management. The charachter isnt getting something for nothing, they are getting their resources back based on time elapsed.
and no, resource management doesnt innately create balance. In fact your proposed design shift would create imbalance, as a Cleric, or Druid can already do what the other classes can do, but the other classes wouldnt be able to do what they do. Your system would make every table need one specific role to function, but nothing else is needed. A cleric is fine as a dps, as is a druid. They are both very surviable. there is nothing inherently better about your plan, you are mostly just making healer classes/features a requirement to play the game, which doesnt really serve the purposes, or design of the game
Ya I was going to say, I do not understand people's aversion to utilizing the option rules in the DMG to solve the issues they have with the main rules, when the optional rules specifically exist to do the thing that people are complaining the base rules don't do.
Like Healer's kit dependency rules combined with slow natural healing, combined with Gritty Realism rest rules. Takes 8 hours and a healers kit to spend any hit dice at all, takes a week of healing with slow healing and you don't recover health on a long rest instead you spend hit dice to heal after a long rest. This will prolong healing if they want.
None of this is viable/possible in DDB's current toolset. Believe me, we've tried. Slow Natural Healing is effectively impossible to implement because the instant one person touches that "Long Rest" button even once the entire thing flies out the window. Healer's Kit Dependency is a garbage dogshit rule that's trying to fake healer's kits actually doing their god damned job, and gritty realism largely ignores what I stated earlier - the core ruleset, the engine the game is built on, assumes players can expend and regain hit points freely and profligately with no lasting ill effects.
Games in which injuries matter and combat is dangerous are built in such a way that avoiding being injured is plausible/viable. Taking even a single unmitigated hit is a disaster, and the game provides tools enough that skilled players can avoid ever doing so for the most part. D&D is not such a game. You WILL lose HP, generally by the cartload, and you will regain it by the return cartload. The frankly quite stupid assertion that "losing HP doesn't mean you're injured!" is a pointless milksop trying to reconcile the fact that D&D treats HP like a currency you're supposed to expend and regain frequently with the fact that this is NOT how living bodies work.
If you can't get over D&D's abjectly stupid and yet utterly standard way of handling combat injuries and player health, you mostly just have to find a different game. But man. Dumb as it is, this particular complaint by the OP seems a weird hill to die on. Like, why are we trying to force anything with Cure Wounds to do literally nothing but expend every last resource they have Curing Wounds? Does that seem like thrilling and engaging gameplay to... anybody?
I mean, healing half HPs from a long rest is still too much. 5 classes that can heal had nothing to do with that. They sat on their thumbs because the fighter said, nah dont bother healing me, I just need 8 hours of rest and I can do what you do by sleeping
Dude, even if the only way to regain hit points was through healing magic and short or long rests didn't heal at all, then people playing clerics, druids, bards, paladins, divine soul sorcerers, and celestial warlocks wouldn't use all their spellslots for healing because that would leave them with no spells to use in combat which is boring and unfun. Playing a heal-bot sucks, why do you want to force people to do it? They are just going to find another way around it - e.g. by investing in Alchemy tools / Herbalism kits and just making a F--- ton of healing potions, or everyone taking the Healer feat and using a Healer's kit instead of spells, or every single character in the party being one of those 6 classes/subclasses to spread out the burden of healing. Because blasting bad guys with powerful magic is fun! Making the fighter go from 10 hp to 30 hp is not fun.
what if per rules, a character healed from 1 to 50 HPs from a long rest, but their max is 100, is that an imbalance in the rules?
It depends. If all the other rules are the same, then it's probably not going to be balanced, no. The rules are currently built around the assumption that each day is balanced more or less completely individually.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I dont see it that way, that each day is balanced. I dont see how each day is any different than another.
To the answer, no its not balanced, because half the classes half healing capabilities, and all are ignored because their healing abilities become undermined when a character can heal half their HPs without their involvement.
That's kinda my point? If a character wakes up with max hp, goes through a full day of adventuring, and then wakes up the next day with only half their max hp, then the two days will have to be balanced vastly differently, since the character won't be working at its best the second day.
As it is, each day is basically a reset. You can balance a full day without worrying about it being too tough because the party is still beat up from the day before.
What? You're going to have to rephrase that. I got lost in all the halves.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I mean, healing half HPs from a long rest is still too much. 5 classes that can heal had nothing to do with that. They sat on their thumbs because the fighter said, nah dont bother healing me, I just need 8 hours of rest and I can do what you do by sleeping
Healing can still be useful, provided you don't just take a long rest any time you take any damage at all. Plus, what if a party doesn't have any of those 5 classes? It'd be lame for somebody to always have to play the designated healer, especially in smaller parties.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
sure, no healers in the party is possible. Thats when the DM needs to make arrangements, but that doesnt mean you make unbalanced rules that ignore 5 healing classes. Core rules have 5 healing classes, and balance suggest you take that into consideration when writing rules. Homebrew or situations should not be part of decision making
The 5 "healing classes" are not ignored. You can play a Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Paladin and be perfectly viable and useful to the party. Ranger, less so, but Ranger's being updated anyways.
"Situations should not be part of decision making" is simply a mind numbing sentence. Like, it's so simple, yet so vastly incorrect, I don't know how to describe it. Of course situations should be part of decision making. Decisions do not exist in vacuums.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Situations, are not rules. Situations are on the fly decisions or homebrew ideas. When I said situations should not be part of decision making, I was referring to decisions made what core rules should be. Regardless, the fact is, a character can heal 200 HPs in 8 hours sleep without the aid of a healer, that is broken, peroid.
Core rules have 5 classes with access to healing spells. That doesn't mean healing is or should be the sum total of their identity. Also, the rules are not unbalanced because clerics and such aren't forced to be healbots for the party; in point of fact, they're balanced so that combat healing is not particularly viable specifically to encourage all classes to actively participate in combat. This is a feature not a bug. Clerics still have several dedicated heal and support classes, but it's an option, not a requirement. Forcing healing via spells into the game just reduces the freedom of play, and mundane out of combat care is essentially what short and long rests do anyways. And, yet again, if you personally want less healing via rest, there are alternate rules in the DMG for that; you can find either tables or players that want to use them if that's the only way you want to play the game. Please don't try to gatekeep people who enjoy the more accessible and less restrictive format.
So you're good with a player healing, theoretically 200 HPs in an 8 hour rest without magical aid?
I feel balance should be first, and homebrew or less restrictive later
Yeah the ALT rules are backwards. The less restrictive rules should be the alt rules
Ya I was going to say, I do not understand people's aversion to utilizing the option rules in the DMG to solve the issues they have with the main rules, when the optional rules specifically exist to do the thing that people are complaining the base rules don't do.
Like Healer's kit dependency rules combined with slow natural healing, combined with Gritty Realism rest rules. Takes 8 hours and a healers kit to spend any hit dice at all, takes a week of healing with slow healing and you don't recover health on a long rest instead you spend hit dice to heal after a long rest. This will prolong healing if they want.
I mean, im not looking to take weeks for a person to heal. I think a moderate amount is fine...like, 1 HD per 3 lvls and double that with a skill medic tending to you. This gives med skill another sensible use.
"I get to not suck as hard as the others, but still suck compared to Magic." is not a sensible state for a skill to be in.
Healing out of combat fast enough that you're up to 100% the next day is not a balance issue. Slowing it down, however, is, because it uses a resource that restores fully up to 100% the next day.
As I said before, using resources is part of the game, that is what creates balance. Getting something for nothing, is unbalanced. How is it people not understand resource management, expanding resources creates balance...
Then why don't you have any issue with people recovering spell slots on a long rest? That's getting something for nothing, isn't it? If characters don't sometimes get something for free, how will they not just run out of resources?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The game isnt designed that a "healer' is a necessary part of the game play. Its 100% designed that players play whatever they want to play. In the PHB hen they tell players what class to play its 100% about finding a thing you like the fantasy of, not of filling mechanical building blocks.
There is no class that is designated as a healer. There are classes that can be good at healing, but they can also never heal at all and be effective.
The purpose of person who prefers to heal the party in 5e, is a short term solution, and extending the parties per day durability. Parties with no healers need more SR and LR, their battles are more deadly, the healer is basically the best mitigation for unlucky rolls in battle. They can easily revive people, or keep another player able to be active in a fight. They are valuable but not necessary. Also, objectively SR dont heal that much, and LR are designed to reset the resources of the group. Spells return each day, so really all your design would be doing is forcing every party to have healers, and mking the recovery process take longer. Because the healers job would be healing everyone to full, and the right answer would rest for days, until healers can heal everyone to full.
The game just isnt designed to be one with hard fixed roles based on dps and healing. The game is designed that any 1-4 charachters can go on an adventure, and be viable. And truthfully few players want a game where recovery is totally based on certain characters. It just becomes a tax on gameplay.
resource management in game design is not that simple. you can have resource management that is based around a round of combat, that is based around an encounter, that is based around a few hours, or a few days. Hit dice is a resource management system. LR is a resource management system. you may prefer a different type of resource management, but that doesnt mean there is no resource management. The charachter isnt getting something for nothing, they are getting their resources back based on time elapsed.
and no, resource management doesnt innately create balance. In fact your proposed design shift would create imbalance, as a Cleric, or Druid can already do what the other classes can do, but the other classes wouldnt be able to do what they do. Your system would make every table need one specific role to function, but nothing else is needed. A cleric is fine as a dps, as is a druid. They are both very surviable. there is nothing inherently better about your plan, you are mostly just making healer classes/features a requirement to play the game, which doesnt really serve the purposes, or design of the game
None of this is viable/possible in DDB's current toolset. Believe me, we've tried. Slow Natural Healing is effectively impossible to implement because the instant one person touches that "Long Rest" button even once the entire thing flies out the window. Healer's Kit Dependency is a garbage dogshit rule that's trying to fake healer's kits actually doing their god damned job, and gritty realism largely ignores what I stated earlier - the core ruleset, the engine the game is built on, assumes players can expend and regain hit points freely and profligately with no lasting ill effects.
Games in which injuries matter and combat is dangerous are built in such a way that avoiding being injured is plausible/viable. Taking even a single unmitigated hit is a disaster, and the game provides tools enough that skilled players can avoid ever doing so for the most part. D&D is not such a game. You WILL lose HP, generally by the cartload, and you will regain it by the return cartload. The frankly quite stupid assertion that "losing HP doesn't mean you're injured!" is a pointless milksop trying to reconcile the fact that D&D treats HP like a currency you're supposed to expend and regain frequently with the fact that this is NOT how living bodies work.
If you can't get over D&D's abjectly stupid and yet utterly standard way of handling combat injuries and player health, you mostly just have to find a different game. But man. Dumb as it is, this particular complaint by the OP seems a weird hill to die on. Like, why are we trying to force anything with Cure Wounds to do literally nothing but expend every last resource they have Curing Wounds? Does that seem like thrilling and engaging gameplay to... anybody?
Please do not contact or message me.
Dude, even if the only way to regain hit points was through healing magic and short or long rests didn't heal at all, then people playing clerics, druids, bards, paladins, divine soul sorcerers, and celestial warlocks wouldn't use all their spellslots for healing because that would leave them with no spells to use in combat which is boring and unfun. Playing a heal-bot sucks, why do you want to force people to do it? They are just going to find another way around it - e.g. by investing in Alchemy tools / Herbalism kits and just making a F--- ton of healing potions, or everyone taking the Healer feat and using a Healer's kit instead of spells, or every single character in the party being one of those 6 classes/subclasses to spread out the burden of healing. Because blasting bad guys with powerful magic is fun! Making the fighter go from 10 hp to 30 hp is not fun.