I'd bet some shiny prayer beads that Kensei gets access to free Weapon Mastery next time we see it.
Astral Self's biggest benefit - being a monk who can attack and grapple with the same stat - is redundant now, so it needs a rework for sure.
Well the thing is it can now grapple shove and STUN with the same stat, and I believe attack with wis as well. With deflect attack and evasion the survival of the monk is pretty good even without having dex above 16 so this monk can get more feats, especially wisdom magic related feats which the flurry, MA, PD, and step changes are all good to take advantage of that.
I'd bet some shiny prayer beads that Kensei gets access to free Weapon Mastery next time we see it.
Astral Self's biggest benefit - being a monk who can attack and grapple with the same stat - is redundant now, so it needs a rework for sure.
Well the thing is it can now grapple shove and STUN with the same stat, and I believe attack with wis as well. With deflect attack and evasion the survival of the monk is pretty good even without having dex above 16 so this monk can get more feats, especially wisdom magic related feats which the flurry, MA, PD, and step changes are all good to take advantage of that.
I'll cede you the point on the stun - but even that's been watered down, because all the other monks who don't get that, get extra damage instead. And if you want ranged punches, that's 4E's thing now, except they don't have to lose a round of flurry activating it.
I'd bet some shiny prayer beads that Kensei gets access to free Weapon Mastery next time we see it.
Astral Self's biggest benefit - being a monk who can attack and grapple with the same stat - is redundant now, so it needs a rework for sure.
Well the thing is it can now grapple shove and STUN with the same stat, and I believe attack with wis as well. With deflect attack and evasion the survival of the monk is pretty good even without having dex above 16 so this monk can get more feats, especially wisdom magic related feats which the flurry, MA, PD, and step changes are all good to take advantage of that.
I'll cede you the point on the stun - but even that's been watered down, because all the other monks who don't get that, get extra damage instead. And if you want ranged punches, that's 4E's thing now, except they don't have to lose a round of flurry activating it.
Astral doesn’t lose a turn activating ranged punches. They deal AOE damage when they activate the arms. Also since they are more likely to up Wisdom before Dex they will deal more damage with when a creature saves against stun. Every monk does MA+Wis force damage on a successful save. They still need a rework since 13th level monk Deflect Energy does 80% of Astral’s 11th level feature’s ability with the same name. The Astral Monks Deflect Energy only worked against limited types of damage, but does work against AOE and saving throws as well as attack roll based damage.
I'd bet some shiny prayer beads that Kensei gets access to free Weapon Mastery next time we see it.
Astral Self's biggest benefit - being a monk who can attack and grapple with the same stat - is redundant now, so it needs a rework for sure.
Well the thing is it can now grapple shove and STUN with the same stat, and I believe attack with wis as well. With deflect attack and evasion the survival of the monk is pretty good even without having dex above 16 so this monk can get more feats, especially wisdom magic related feats which the flurry, MA, PD, and step changes are all good to take advantage of that.
they can't grapple with wisdom, Astral only effects str saves and checks. grappling is currently a STR DC. Monk survival is not actually good with low AC. Its better than before, but their HP is poor, multi attack is common for melee. I ve been testing shadow monk, who has disadvantage on being attacked all the time, with 17 ac versus low level enemies, and they still almost died when focused. (they are very survivable) But without disadvantage, with 16-17 ac versus people with +8 or more hit, you are often in danger of being downed. Not impossible to play, but its a big risk.
Also, monk's ki issues are not gone in t1-t2, you won't always have Arms up if they aren't resting often. I doubt they are ever gone. Its doable, but there is a price. Shillelag might have helped before, but they lowered its duration, so you probably need to waste a BA for it every time. What are the good wisdom magics that is going to make up for this?
I'm also testing a Astral monk, but that one is less often, so I might not get to see it fully , but it definitely notices the lack of dex at lvl 3. (for attacks) It definitely needs some corrections.
I'd bet some shiny prayer beads that Kensei gets access to free Weapon Mastery next time we see it.
Astral Self's biggest benefit - being a monk who can attack and grapple with the same stat - is redundant now, so it needs a rework for sure.
Well the thing is it can now grapple shove and STUN with the same stat, and I believe attack with wis as well. With deflect attack and evasion the survival of the monk is pretty good even without having dex above 16 so this monk can get more feats, especially wisdom magic related feats which the flurry, MA, PD, and step changes are all good to take advantage of that.
they can't grapple with wisdom, Astral only effects str saves and checks. grappling is currently a STR DC. Monk survival is not actually good with low AC. Its better than before, but their HP is poor, multi attack is common for melee. I ve been testing shadow monk, who has disadvantage on being attacked all the time, with 17 ac versus low level enemies, and they still almost died when focused. (they are very survivable) But without disadvantage, with 16-17 ac versus people with +8 or more hit, you are often in danger of being downed. Not impossible to play, but its a big risk.
Did you compare to other martials though? IME any character that is focus fired upon goes down very easily. Otherwise the combat wouldn't be challenging at all.
Assuming a 4 round combat, monk almost identical survivability as a Fighter:
Fighter (level 5): d10 hit die, Plate armour = AC 18, if Fighter uses all their Second Wind = 3d10+3*5
Monk (level 5): d8 hit die, Unarmoured Defence = AC 17, if use their reaction for Deflect Attack every turn = 4d10+4*Dex + 4*5
d8 hit die vs d10 hit die = +5 hit points to Fighter 14 CON vs 16 CON = +5 hit points to Fighter Deflect Attack vs Second Wind = +26.5 hit points to Monk
So HP wise Monk is ahead by 16, and AC wise the fighter is ahead by 1. Assuming both just stand still getting hit, and there is only 1 combat per day lasting 4 rounds.
As the number of rounds increases the numbers will be more and more in Monk's favour as Deflect Attack is resourceless whereas Second Wind is limited to 3/day.
Based on scanning MPMM, +8 to hit is a monster of CR 6-7, which absolutely should be a deadly threat to a level 5-7 player character.
If survivability is a concern though, the Fighter can wear a shield, boosting their AC to 20. They can also use a Sap weapon like a Longsword for even more survivability on top of that. Neither option costs them any resources or attacks.
For Monk between levels 1 - 4 taking the Dodge action with FOB bonus action and deflect Attack to reduce damage gives the monk a significant boost in survivability. If you need to get out of trouble the fee bonus disengage only adds to that. I think its enough. There has to be some risk otherwise the game gets boring. Fighters and barbarians should be a little better at standing there trading blows. That's pretty much all they do.
I'd bet some shiny prayer beads that Kensei gets access to free Weapon Mastery next time we see it.
Astral Self's biggest benefit - being a monk who can attack and grapple with the same stat - is redundant now, so it needs a rework for sure.
Well the thing is it can now grapple shove and STUN with the same stat, and I believe attack with wis as well. With deflect attack and evasion the survival of the monk is pretty good even without having dex above 16 so this monk can get more feats, especially wisdom magic related feats which the flurry, MA, PD, and step changes are all good to take advantage of that.
they can't grapple with wisdom, Astral only effects str saves and checks. grappling is currently a STR DC. Monk survival is not actually good with low AC. Its better than before, but their HP is poor, multi attack is common for melee. I ve been testing shadow monk, who has disadvantage on being attacked all the time, with 17 ac versus low level enemies, and they still almost died when focused. (they are very survivable) But without disadvantage, with 16-17 ac versus people with +8 or more hit, you are often in danger of being downed. Not impossible to play, but its a big risk.
Did you compare to other martials though? IME any character that is focus fired upon goes down very easily. Otherwise the combat wouldn't be challenging at all.
Assuming a 4 round combat, monk almost identical survivability as a Fighter:
Fighter (level 5): d10 hit die, Plate armour = AC 18, if Fighter uses all their Second Wind = 3d10+3*5
Monk (level 5): d8 hit die, Unarmoured Defence = AC 17, if use their reaction for Deflect Attack every turn = 4d10+4*Dex + 4*5
d8 hit die vs d10 hit die = +5 hit points to Fighter 14 CON vs 16 CON = +5 hit points to Fighter Deflect Attack vs Second Wind = +26.5 hit points to Monk
So HP wise Monk is ahead by 16, and AC wise the fighter is ahead by 1. Assuming both just stand still getting hit, and there is only 1 combat per day lasting 4 rounds.
As the number of rounds increases the numbers will be more and more in Monk's favour as Deflect Attack is resourceless whereas Second Wind is limited to 3/day.
Based on scanning MPMM, +8 to hit is a monster of CR 6-7, which absolutely should be a deadly threat to a level 5-7 player character.
so deflect attack shouldn't be thought of as hitpoints, you should think of it as negating an attack. or lower. per round. Point being extra reduction doesnt add to your hit points directly
also, its a batlle to see whose HP reaches zero first, not who nets less hp loss per round.
one of the dangerous fights I had on shadow monk, was Hill giant. level 4. monks hp is 31.
but fighting things higher CR is always dangerous, lets assume level 5 versus
monk 38hp
Hill giant(cr5) does 2 attacks for average 18 dmg.(+8 attack) astral monk with 16 dex negates 1d10+3+5 thats an average of 5.5+7=13.5.
60% chance the giant hits, 16% chance no damage round one, 48% chance 1 hits. 36% chance both hit.
on average that comes out to 10.26 dmg per round. On average, the monk dies in fourth round
but luck matters more here, because 19 damage in two rounds kills the monk, so hope he rolls low.
the fighter has 49 hp. and either 18 ac or 19 if they took defensive (level 1 new char feat)
the giant averages 19.8 if the AC is 18. and the fighter can recover 5.5+5 or 10.5 for 3 rounds. if they reduce each round,
they take 9.3 on average per round, on average they won't die until the 5th round. luck matters, but less so, because of the higher max hp, and higher AC.
so basically, the monk might die in round 4, before the fight ends. the fighter probably won't.
but let's look at the other time I almost died on monk, 2 CR3 veterans and 1 CR5 red dragon captain. one was distracted by other members, but they get 3 attacks per round, and the dragon captain has breath.
attack is lower thankfully, +5.
sooo, lets say the monk only takes damage if 2+ attacks hit, I'm coming up with 3.58 per round. but the red dragon does fire breath, for average of 18 dmg. they have 33% chance to get that back each round, I had two guys on me at one point, the veteran also has +5sttack and 3 hit multiattack. but let's just look at the captain
round 1 38hp monk goes to 20, they then take 8.3 damage a round on average. once again the monk probably dies round 4 or round 3 if two guys go for him. once again, and unlucky roll (recharge round2) kills the monk.
the fighter, with 18 AC, takes on average 8 damage per round of attacks, with 33% chance it will breath for 18 instead. but they can recover 10.5. they probably can handle the captain for 8 rounds. if the cap gets assistance, the fighter can last up to 4rth round, and if lucky five rounds.
this is because aoes and smaller multiple attacks makes monk's negate one attack less valuable, and second winds healing wastes no mitigation. Combined with a higher hp pool, and better AC, the fighter is noticeably more survivable.
Short version, monks negate one attack is nice, but not enough to cover completely for low HP and and suboptimal AC. It works best with higher AC.
its definitely playable, but its going to noticeably effect your survival/gameplay on Astral monk.
Why should the monk stand in the same place and get face slapped when the class got so many options to move out of harms way and not get hurt compared to a fighter. Comparatives are odious their fighting style is not the same, as long dmg is close in average they are acceptable, there is no need for them to do the same.
Why should the monk stand in the same place and get face slapped when the class got so many options to move out of harms way and not get hurt compared to a fighter. Comparatives are odious their fighting style is not the same, as long dmg is close in average they are acceptable, there is no need for them to do the same.
the options that move monk out of the way, also halve, or more than halve their damage. Just because the class says you can disengage doesnt mean its a good idea.
and monk still needs to get back into melee every time it attacks. Which means you can't end too far even if you retreat. I am not claiming its the same class or playstyle at all. However AC matters for the monk, and they are not designed to be effective while constantly running, contrary to what people think. they are designed to choose between running, damage, and defense. But running and defense are not effective for lowering monsters HP, so best case you elongate the fight, worse case you elongate the fight and waste resources.
playtest the Astral monk with 16 dex level 5-12. see how effective/entertaining running away is.
so deflect attack shouldn't be thought of as hitpoints, you should think of it as negating an attack. or lower. per round. Point being extra reduction doesnt add to your hit points directly
also, its a battle to see whose HP reaches zero first, not who nets less hp loss per round.
Sorry but comparing a "worst case scenario" for a monk, vs "average round" for a fighter is not a fair comparison. Could you please write this out with both the monk and the fighter receiving identical attacks / AoEs as I'm having a really hard time trying to understand this.
the options that move monk out of the way, also halve, or more than halve their damage. Just because the class says you can disengage doesnt mean its a good idea.
and monk still needs to get back into melee every time it attacks. Which means you can't end too far even if you retreat. I am not claiming its the same class or playstyle at all. However AC matters for the monk, and they are not designed to be effective while constantly running, contrary to what people think. they are designed to choose between running, damage, and defense. But running and defense are not effective for lowering monsters HP, so best case you elongate the fight, worse case you elongate the fight and waste resources.
playtest the Astral monk with 16 dex level 5-12. see how effective/entertaining running away is.
Actually, all four monks can survive melee without sacrificing any damage now!
Open Hand: Addle turns off OAs for free disengage. If the monster's speed is a concern, they can Topple with the other punch to halve their movement, or push them away to get a head start. Starting at 11+, they don't even need those anymore, because they can throw in a free Dash alongside attack+addleflurry.
Mercy: Physician's Touch at level 6 = automatic poisoned no save, i.e. effectively free dodge against any enemy not immune to poison, which is most of them. They thus don't need to get out of melee, even if they do, the disadvantage on the OA means they probably don't need to disengage either.
Shadow: Magical Darkness they can move and see through = free dodge again, and also free disengage because enemies have to see you to take an OA, and they also get constant advantage to hit their target. It costs an action on the first round to set up, but the constant advantage it gives helps you make up the DPR on rounds 2 and 3. And now, they can MA or flurry on the same round they cast it, so you don't lose the entire first round. Since Darkness lasts 10 minutes, you can even set it up before combat, since it doesn't impair your vision (cast it on a pebble in your pocket or something before combat, and retrieve it as an object interaction when the fight starts.)
Four Elements: They have 10ft reach and can push the enemy 10ft more, so they don't need to Disengage either. Even if the enemy has reach too, one of the 4-5 Strength saves you get them to make vs push is bound to fail.
I would put Open Hand and 4 Elements in the skirmisher category, while Mercy is more tanky, and Shadow gets to do both.
the options that move monk out of the way, also halve, or more than halve their damage. Just because the class says you can disengage doesnt mean its a good idea.
and monk still needs to get back into melee every time it attacks. Which means you can't end too far even if you retreat. I am not claiming its the same class or playstyle at all. However AC matters for the monk, and they are not designed to be effective while constantly running, contrary to what people think. they are designed to choose between running, damage, and defense. But running and defense are not effective for lowering monsters HP, so best case you elongate the fight, worse case you elongate the fight and waste resources.
playtest the Astral monk with 16 dex level 5-12. see how effective/entertaining running away is.
Actually, all four monks can survive melee without sacrificing any damage now!
Open Hand: Addle turns off OAs for free disengage. If the monster's speed is a concern, they can Topple with the other punch to halve their movement, or push them away to get a head start. Starting at 11+, they don't even need those anymore, because they can throw in a free Dash alongside attack+addleflurry.
Mercy: Physician's Touch at level 6 = automatic poisoned no save, i.e. effectively free dodge against any enemy not immune to poison, which is most of them. They thus don't need to get out of melee, even if they do, the disadvantage on the OA means they probably don't need to disengage either.
Shadow: Magical Darkness they can move and see through = free dodge again, and also free disengage because enemies have to see you to take an OA, and they also get constant advantage to hit their target. It costs an action on the first round to set up, but the constant advantage it gives helps you make up the DPR on rounds 2 and 3. And now, they can MA or flurry on the same round they cast it, so you don't lose the entire first round. Since Darkness lasts 10 minutes, you can even set it up before combat, since it doesn't impair your vision (cast it on a pebble in your pocket or something before combat, and retrieve it as an object interaction when the fight starts.)
Four Elements: They have 10ft reach and can push the enemy 10ft more, so they don't need to Disengage either. Even if the enemy has reach too, one of the 4-5 Strength saves you get them to make vs push is bound to fail.
I would put Open Hand and 4 Elements in the skirmisher category, while Mercy is more tanky, and Shadow gets to do both.
open hand is a sacrifice of damage until 17. I wouldn't lower AC on open hand, they are right in the mix, and they got to get close
elements and shadow and mercy are fine. with survivability, elements and shadow are probably on the higher side, they can lower AC if they really want to.
but the topic was specifically a low AC astral monk who let's dex slide, And the fact their wisdom grapples don't work anymore, and their reflect energy is super niche now. (more than before). I don't think low AC is a great idea for them at this time, though its not unplayable.
Mercy monk for damage comes out very well here at level 11. 2 attacks plus 3FOB attacks plus hands of harm for no extra ki cost, plus deflect attack. That really plays into my fantasy of the monk being super fast. Love it.
Elements monk gets flight at level 11, that combines great with the sotw upgrade to move a willing creature. Fly your buddy around. Very cool.
One dnd is suppose to be backwards compatible but we can see with the monk certain subclasses not in the upcoming phb will need revision. For any feature that is no longer compatible i am sure dm's will be open to reasonable requests for changes.
What sacrifice? Did you read what I wrote? Addle means you can get in and out of melee without disengaging against most creatures, thus getting all your attacks. By the time you're regularly up against fast creatures or creatures with lots of reach, Fleet Step is online and you can easily keep out of range of those too with 100ft OA-free movement. Both of those are available long before 17.
but the topic was specifically a low AC astral monk who let's dex slide, And the fact their wisdom grapples don't work anymore, and their reflect energy is super niche now. (more than before). I don't think low AC is a great idea for them at this time, though its not unplayable.
No argument that astral needs a buff, but astral is also irrelevant until it gets reprinted one day. It can be weaker for the time being just like other legacy subclasses like Banneret and Scout and Tempest Barbarian etc.
Astral Monk situation is niche. Using a 2014 subclass with the 2024 framework. This is something that isn’t necessarily the point of backwards compatibility. Let’s run with it since Monk is one of the classes were it doesn’t cause any problems. While Astral Monk 11th Deflect Energy will need a rewrite it still functions 2 levels earlier and covers saving throws. So there is some benefit. Their grappling is actually better because they should be able to do it from 10 feet away. I do see an argument that once it’s not their turn they would lose the grapple, but I wouldn’t rule it that way (my ruling only matters at my table). It’s a grey area because of the changes to unarmed strike. Astral arms should be rewritten to remove the grey area and just make this possible. Being able to grapple someone and keep them out of meleerange from you is a cool defense trick for an astral monk.
Astral Monk situation is niche. Using a 2014 subclass with the 2024 framework. This is something that isn’t necessarily the point of backwards compatibility. Let’s run with it since Monk is one of the classes were it doesn’t cause any problems. While Astral Monk 11th Deflect Energy will need a rewrite it still functions 2 levels earlier and covers saving throws. So there is some benefit. Their grappling is actually better because they should be able to do it from 10 feet away. I do see an argument that once it’s not their turn they would lose the grapple, but I wouldn’t rule it that way (my ruling only matters at my table). It’s a grey area because of the changes to unarmed strike. Astral arms should be rewritten to remove the grey area and just make this possible. Being able to grapple someone and keep them out of meleerange from you is a cool defense trick for an astral monk.
I'll add to this - Four Elements can grapple with reach now too, and they're good at it since they do it with Dex. So if that's the main thing people wanted from Astral Monk, they have something to tide them over until Astral is updated. Activating their reach fists doesn't cost a BA either.
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I'd bet some shiny prayer beads that Kensei gets access to free Weapon Mastery next time we see it.
Astral Self's biggest benefit - being a monk who can attack and grapple with the same stat - is redundant now, so it needs a rework for sure.
Well the thing is it can now grapple shove and STUN with the same stat, and I believe attack with wis as well. With deflect attack and evasion the survival of the monk is pretty good even without having dex above 16 so this monk can get more feats, especially wisdom magic related feats which the flurry, MA, PD, and step changes are all good to take advantage of that.
I'll cede you the point on the stun - but even that's been watered down, because all the other monks who don't get that, get extra damage instead. And if you want ranged punches, that's 4E's thing now, except they don't have to lose a round of flurry activating it.
Astral doesn’t lose a turn activating ranged punches. They deal AOE damage when they activate the arms. Also since they are more likely to up Wisdom before Dex they will deal more damage with when a creature saves against stun. Every monk does MA+Wis force damage on a successful save. They still need a rework since 13th level monk Deflect Energy does 80% of Astral’s 11th level feature’s ability with the same name. The Astral Monks Deflect Energy only worked against limited types of damage, but does work against AOE and saving throws as well as attack roll based damage.
its not really redundant, it actually doesnt work now. it lets you use wis for strength checks and saves, but its a str DC. Definitely needs a change
deflect energy of Astral also needs a change, as its use case .is now only non attack damage of a few types.
they can't grapple with wisdom, Astral only effects str saves and checks. grappling is currently a STR DC. Monk survival is not actually good with low AC. Its better than before, but their HP is poor, multi attack is common for melee. I ve been testing shadow monk, who has disadvantage on being attacked all the time, with 17 ac versus low level enemies, and they still almost died when focused. (they are very survivable) But without disadvantage, with 16-17 ac versus people with +8 or more hit, you are often in danger of being downed. Not impossible to play, but its a big risk.
Also, monk's ki issues are not gone in t1-t2, you won't always have Arms up if they aren't resting often. I doubt they are ever gone. Its doable, but there is a price. Shillelag might have helped before, but they lowered its duration, so you probably need to waste a BA for it every time. What are the good wisdom magics that is going to make up for this?
I'm also testing a Astral monk, but that one is less often, so I might not get to see it fully , but it definitely notices the lack of dex at lvl 3. (for attacks) It definitely needs some corrections.
Did you compare to other martials though? IME any character that is focus fired upon goes down very easily. Otherwise the combat wouldn't be challenging at all.
Assuming a 4 round combat, monk almost identical survivability as a Fighter:
Fighter (level 5): d10 hit die, Plate armour = AC 18, if Fighter uses all their Second Wind = 3d10+3*5
Monk (level 5): d8 hit die, Unarmoured Defence = AC 17, if use their reaction for Deflect Attack every turn = 4d10+4*Dex + 4*5
d8 hit die vs d10 hit die = +5 hit points to Fighter
14 CON vs 16 CON = +5 hit points to Fighter
Deflect Attack vs Second Wind = +26.5 hit points to Monk
So HP wise Monk is ahead by 16, and AC wise the fighter is ahead by 1. Assuming both just stand still getting hit, and there is only 1 combat per day lasting 4 rounds.
As the number of rounds increases the numbers will be more and more in Monk's favour as Deflect Attack is resourceless whereas Second Wind is limited to 3/day.
Based on scanning MPMM, +8 to hit is a monster of CR 6-7, which absolutely should be a deadly threat to a level 5-7 player character.
If survivability is a concern though, the Fighter can wear a shield, boosting their AC to 20. They can also use a Sap weapon like a Longsword for even more survivability on top of that. Neither option costs them any resources or attacks.
For Monk between levels 1 - 4 taking the Dodge action with FOB bonus action and deflect Attack to reduce damage gives the monk a significant boost in survivability. If you need to get out of trouble the fee bonus disengage only adds to that. I think its enough. There has to be some risk otherwise the game gets boring. Fighters and barbarians should be a little better at standing there trading blows. That's pretty much all they do.
so deflect attack shouldn't be thought of as hitpoints, you should think of it as negating an attack. or lower. per round. Point being extra reduction doesnt add to your hit points directly
also, its a batlle to see whose HP reaches zero first, not who nets less hp loss per round.
one of the dangerous fights I had on shadow monk, was Hill giant. level 4. monks hp is 31.
but fighting things higher CR is always dangerous, lets assume level 5 versus
monk 38hp
Hill giant(cr5) does 2 attacks for average 18 dmg.(+8 attack) astral monk with 16 dex negates 1d10+3+5 thats an average of 5.5+7=13.5.
60% chance the giant hits, 16% chance no damage round one, 48% chance 1 hits. 36% chance both hit.
on average that comes out to 10.26 dmg per round. On average, the monk dies in fourth round
but luck matters more here, because 19 damage in two rounds kills the monk, so hope he rolls low.
the fighter has 49 hp. and either 18 ac or 19 if they took defensive (level 1 new char feat)
the giant averages 19.8 if the AC is 18. and the fighter can recover 5.5+5 or 10.5 for 3 rounds. if they reduce each round,
they take 9.3 on average per round, on average they won't die until the 5th round. luck matters, but less so, because of the higher max hp, and higher AC.
so basically, the monk might die in round 4, before the fight ends. the fighter probably won't.
but let's look at the other time I almost died on monk, 2 CR3 veterans and 1 CR5 red dragon captain. one was distracted by other members, but they get 3 attacks per round, and the dragon captain has breath.
attack is lower thankfully, +5.
sooo, lets say the monk only takes damage if 2+ attacks hit, I'm coming up with 3.58 per round. but the red dragon does fire breath, for average of 18 dmg. they have 33% chance to get that back each round, I had two guys on me at one point, the veteran also has +5sttack and 3 hit multiattack. but let's just look at the captain
round 1 38hp monk goes to 20, they then take 8.3 damage a round on average. once again the monk probably dies round 4 or round 3 if two guys go for him. once again, and unlucky roll (recharge round2) kills the monk.
the fighter, with 18 AC, takes on average 8 damage per round of attacks, with 33% chance it will breath for 18 instead. but they can recover 10.5. they probably can handle the captain for 8 rounds. if the cap gets assistance, the fighter can last up to 4rth round, and if lucky five rounds.
this is because aoes and smaller multiple attacks makes monk's negate one attack less valuable, and second winds healing wastes no mitigation. Combined with a higher hp pool, and better AC, the fighter is noticeably more survivable.
Short version, monks negate one attack is nice, but not enough to cover completely for low HP and and suboptimal AC. It works best with higher AC.
its definitely playable, but its going to noticeably effect your survival/gameplay on Astral monk.
Why should the monk stand in the same place and get face slapped when the class got so many options to move out of harms way and not get hurt compared to a fighter. Comparatives are odious their fighting style is not the same, as long dmg is close in average they are acceptable, there is no need for them to do the same.
I honestly love the idea of monks dodging and BA punching at levels 1-4. That feels like such a monk way to "tank."
the options that move monk out of the way, also halve, or more than halve their damage. Just because the class says you can disengage doesnt mean its a good idea.
and monk still needs to get back into melee every time it attacks. Which means you can't end too far even if you retreat. I am not claiming its the same class or playstyle at all. However AC matters for the monk, and they are not designed to be effective while constantly running, contrary to what people think. they are designed to choose between running, damage, and defense. But running and defense are not effective for lowering monsters HP, so best case you elongate the fight, worse case you elongate the fight and waste resources.
playtest the Astral monk with 16 dex level 5-12. see how effective/entertaining running away is.
Sorry but comparing a "worst case scenario" for a monk, vs "average round" for a fighter is not a fair comparison. Could you please write this out with both the monk and the fighter receiving identical attacks / AoEs as I'm having a really hard time trying to understand this.
Actually, all four monks can survive melee without sacrificing any damage now!
Open Hand: Addle turns off OAs for free disengage. If the monster's speed is a concern, they can Topple with the other punch to halve their movement, or push them away to get a head start. Starting at 11+, they don't even need those anymore, because they can throw in a free Dash alongside attack+addleflurry.
Mercy: Physician's Touch at level 6 = automatic poisoned no save, i.e. effectively free dodge against any enemy not immune to poison, which is most of them. They thus don't need to get out of melee, even if they do, the disadvantage on the OA means they probably don't need to disengage either.
Shadow: Magical Darkness they can move and see through = free dodge again, and also free disengage because enemies have to see you to take an OA, and they also get constant advantage to hit their target. It costs an action on the first round to set up, but the constant advantage it gives helps you make up the DPR on rounds 2 and 3. And now, they can MA or flurry on the same round they cast it, so you don't lose the entire first round. Since Darkness lasts 10 minutes, you can even set it up before combat, since it doesn't impair your vision (cast it on a pebble in your pocket or something before combat, and retrieve it as an object interaction when the fight starts.)
Four Elements: They have 10ft reach and can push the enemy 10ft more, so they don't need to Disengage either. Even if the enemy has reach too, one of the 4-5 Strength saves you get them to make vs push is bound to fail.
I would put Open Hand and 4 Elements in the skirmisher category, while Mercy is more tanky, and Shadow gets to do both.
open hand is a sacrifice of damage until 17. I wouldn't lower AC on open hand, they are right in the mix, and they got to get close
elements and shadow and mercy are fine. with survivability, elements and shadow are probably on the higher side, they can lower AC if they really want to.
but the topic was specifically a low AC astral monk who let's dex slide, And the fact their wisdom grapples don't work anymore, and their reflect energy is super niche now. (more than before). I don't think low AC is a great idea for them at this time, though its not unplayable.
Mercy monk for damage comes out very well here at level 11. 2 attacks plus 3FOB attacks plus hands of harm for no extra ki cost, plus deflect attack. That really plays into my fantasy of the monk being super fast. Love it.
Elements monk gets flight at level 11, that combines great with the sotw upgrade to move a willing creature. Fly your buddy around. Very cool.
One dnd is suppose to be backwards compatible but we can see with the monk certain subclasses not in the upcoming phb will need revision. For any feature that is no longer compatible i am sure dm's will be open to reasonable requests for changes.
What sacrifice? Did you read what I wrote? Addle means you can get in and out of melee without disengaging against most creatures, thus getting all your attacks. By the time you're regularly up against fast creatures or creatures with lots of reach, Fleet Step is online and you can easily keep out of range of those too with 100ft OA-free movement. Both of those are available long before 17.
No argument that astral needs a buff, but astral is also irrelevant until it gets reprinted one day. It can be weaker for the time being just like other legacy subclasses like Banneret and Scout and Tempest Barbarian etc.
Astral Monk situation is niche. Using a 2014 subclass with the 2024 framework. This is something that isn’t necessarily the point of backwards compatibility. Let’s run with it since Monk is one of the classes were it doesn’t cause any problems. While Astral Monk 11th Deflect Energy will need a rewrite it still functions 2 levels earlier and covers saving throws. So there is some benefit. Their grappling is actually better because they should be able to do it from 10 feet away. I do see an argument that once it’s not their turn they would lose the grapple, but I wouldn’t rule it that way (my ruling only matters at my table). It’s a grey area because of the changes to unarmed strike. Astral arms should be rewritten to remove the grey area and just make this possible. Being able to grapple someone and keep them out of meleerange from you is a cool defense trick for an astral monk.
I'll add to this - Four Elements can grapple with reach now too, and they're good at it since they do it with Dex. So if that's the main thing people wanted from Astral Monk, they have something to tide them over until Astral is updated. Activating their reach fists doesn't cost a BA either.