While I’m not ecstatic about all the monk changes, I have to give them credit for listening to everyone. I have seen all the changes they listed suggested on these forums.
I don't mean to burden anybody, but would anybody who's jacked in to those arguments give a quick TL;DR about what the pain points are on the most recent UA monk? The main thread I see collected over a hundred pages since May, and hell no.
so far we've just got a video to go by, but the UA document itself should drop shortly. [[ edit: it's out now... https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ua/ph-playtest-8 ]]
mostly stuff like rogue's cunning strike stealing open hand's addle but improving it. or flurry of blows, patient defense, and step of the wind should be 0-dp or maybe have a 1-dp 'power-up' option. etc etc. not exactly worth delving into again. gotta move forward with what we get here.
The Monk looks incredible now. They're still MAD, but the sheer number of things you can do without discipline to help your survivability now is amazing. In addition, they've gotten their damage output buffed and various quality of life improvements.
Martial Arts die starts at 1d6, and goes up to 1d12
Flurry and Martial Arts no longer need you to attack with your action to use their bonus action attacks, so you can e.g. dodge and flurry
You can now Disengage or Dash as a BA unlimited times without spending any discipline. If you do spend discipline, those two get improved (i.e. Disengage + Dodge, and Dash + Disengage, respectively.)
Stunning Strike now does bonus damage if the target succeeds at their saving throw (MA + Wis), making it never be a wasted action, i.e. you're always getting something for using it. This should probably do the bonus damage if the target is immune to Stun too.)
You can recover all your disc without a SR 1/day.
Still Mind has been renamed to Self-Restoration and no longer requires an action. It also covers the Poisoned condition now.
At high levels you will always have at least 4 discipline going into any combat, even if you weren't able to rest.
The "resist all damage except Force" high level ability doesn't cost an action to activate anymore.
The Monk looks incredible now. They're still MAD, but the sheer number of things you can do without discipline to help your survivability now is amazing. In addition, they've gotten their damage output buffed and various quality of life improvements.
Martial Arts die starts at 1d6, and goes up to 1d12
Flurry and Martial Arts no longer need you to attack with your action to use their bonus action attacks, so you can e.g. dodge and flurry
You can now Disengage or Dash as a BA unlimited times without spending any discipline. If you do spend discipline, those two get improved (i.e. Disengage + Dodge, and Dash + Disengage, respectively.)
Stunning Strike now does bonus damage if the target succeeds at their saving throw (MA + Wis), making it never be a wasted action, i.e. you're always getting something for using it. This should probably do the bonus damage if the target is immune to Stun too.)
You can recover all your disc without a SR 1/day.
Still Mind has been renamed to Self-Restoration and no longer requires an action. It also covers the Poisoned condition now.
At high levels you will always have at least 4 discipline going into any combat, even if you weren't able to rest.
The "resist all damage except Force" high level ability doesn't cost an action to activate anymore.
The capstone is *chef's kiss*
Open Hand is now Super Drunken Master because the "no reactions" punch no longer needs a saving throw (go punch that counterspeller right in the jaw)
I'm super excited to play this monk now!
it’s a better monk than before, some of this is nothing new.
Annddd they didn’t really solve monk ki issues here. The monk damage without ki is the same as before, the monk damage with ki has improved. You basically must flurry every turn. You also should stunning every turn. So, they will spend 2 ki per round, min. Subclasses expend more, deflect uses 1 ki. So you are looking at 2-4 ki per round, the monk will struggle after one to two fights.
also, BA features still can’t really compete. Dodge and step still gives up massive dps, never good to use them unless there is no choice
thier max damage has gone up, but the gameplay will still be basic attack flurry +stunning strike every turn, until you run out of ki, after 1-2 fights. No interesting choices
Not as much options as weapon mastery, but it has some interesting things now. Not super excited, but not de-resting any more.
it’s a better monk than before, some of this is nothing new.
Annddd they didn’t really solve monk ki issues here. The monk damage without ki is the same as before, the monk damage with ki has improved. You basically must flurry every turn. You also should stunning every turn. So, they will spend 2 ki per round, min. Subclasses expend more, deflect uses 1 ki. So you are looking at 2-4 ki per round, the monk will struggle after one to two fights.
Two fights per short rest most days seems reasonable to me, and with the ability to do more disc-free actions you can stretch your ki more easily.
For an emergency you have Uncanny Metabolism as well, though I wouldn't mind if that scaled up to 2-3 uses per LR.
-Bonus action unarmed strike and FOB no longer tied to the attack action. This is great.
-return of the martial arts die with weapons. This is good. Two weapon fighting monks are going to be bad ass.
-weapon masteries for monks are scrapped. It's a missed opportunity to add weapon masteries to unarmed strikes. Sad.
-proficiency in martial weapons with the light property. That adds shortsword and scimitar. I thought they would bring in tashas dedicated weapon. Looks like monks will have to take a feat to get better weapons.
-dexterity is now your save dc for grapple and shove options! I love this.
-patient defense is free bonus disengage and spend 1ki to Disengage and dodge. Not sure if these combine well but I love the free disengage.
-step of wind is free bonus dash and spend 1 ki to Dash and disengage with double jump distance. I love the free dash.
-at level 2 you regain all expended ki points when you roll Initiative and you also gain hit points equal to your monk level plus martial arts die. Usable once per long rest. At first glance I like this alot. Not convinced it solves the monks ki issues but combined with free dash and disengage it might be enough. For me it needs a closer look.
-Deflect Missiles now becomes deflect Attack and works with melee attacks. Damage returned to the enemy equal two martial arts die plus dex modifier or zero on a save. I love this! very on point for the monk. Still wished it was an attack roll instead of a saving throw. Expect this to be nerfed. The same damage reduction on melee attacks as the ranged might be too strong. I think they might cap it at dex modifier times per long rest.
-stunning strike duration is still until the beginning of your next turn but also does one martial arts die plus wisdom modifier force damage on a failed save. i think this is a nice compromise so it does not feel like a waste of resources when they make their save.
-level 10 flurry of blows can do a third attack. patient defense gives you temp hit points equal to two martial arts die. step of the wind lets you move a willing creature with you without provoking opportunity attacks. Monks needed a damage and survivability boost in tier three and four so this is good. Sotw gives a fun bonus for helping guys out of sticky situations.
-level 10 you can remove charm, frightened or poison at end of your turn.
-level 15 when you have 3 or less discipline points and roll Initiative you start with 4 points. It's better but overall still a meh feature.
-superior defense is now at beginning of turn instead of a bonus action. Excellent action economy improvement so you can still FOB in the same round you use this. Very good.
-capstone is +4 to dex and wisdom max 26. This is the capstone I was hoping for. Finally a worthy monk capstone!
Open Hand Monk
-Addle goes back to no saving throw. You also get a third attack from FOB at 10th level from base class for an extra attempt at pushing, tripping or addle.
-No ki cost for wholeness of Body. Still capped at wisdom modifier times per day.
-you can add step of the wind to any other bonus action. I assume that means bonus actions other than FOB or PD qualify.
-quivering Palm can now be activated with one of your attacks on the attack action.
Overall I have to say I am pleasantly surprised as there is more here than i was expecting. Alot of these changes are ideas we saw on these forums. Kudos to monk fans for speaking up. Keep in mind they can always nerf these changes but at first glance this does get me more excited to play monk than I have been in some time.
it’s a better monk than before, some of this is nothing new.
Annddd they didn’t really solve monk ki issues here. The monk damage without ki is the same as before, the monk damage with ki has improved. You basically must flurry every turn. You also should stunning every turn. So, they will spend 2 ki per round, min. Subclasses expend more, deflect uses 1 ki. So you are looking at 2-4 ki per round, the monk will struggle after one to two fights.
Two fights per short rest most days seems reasonable to me, and with the ability to do more disc-free actions you can stretch your ki more easily.
For an emergency you have Uncanny Metabolism as well, though I wouldn't mind if that scaled up to 2-3 uses per LR.
It’s only two fights for the first sr, then it’s 1 per.
‘the two include metabolism.
baseline monk without ki is still extremely poor, 3 attacks per round is bad damage.
average encounter lasts 4 rounds, you use two per round base line. So that’s 8 ki, most subs use at least 1 ki to set up. So you will be zero ki in first fight, use metabolism second fight.
also, you don’t really have BA options, unless you plan to do only 2 attacks per round, with no fighting style, rage, hunters mark, blessed strikes etc. None of the BA compete with flurry. The optimal choice for any situation where you aren’t dead is spam attack and stunning strike.
crawford missed the mark with hats on hats, monk doesn’t really have lots of option on a turn to turn, or attack to attack basis.
-Bonus action unarmed strike and FOB no longer tied to the attack action. This is great.
-return of the martial arts die with weapons. This is good. Two weapon fighting monks are going to be bad ass.
-weapon masteries for monks are scrapped. It's a missed opportunity to add weapon masteries to unarmed strikes. Sad.
-proficiency in martial weapons with the light property. That adds shortsword and scimitar. I thought they would bring in tashas dedicated weapon. Looks like monks will have to take a feat to get better weapons.
-dexterity is now your save dc for grapple and shove options! I love this.
-patient defense is free bonus disengage and spend 1ki to Disengage and dodge. Not sure if these combine well but I love the free disengage.
-step of wind is free bonus dash and spend 1 ki to Dash and disengage with double jump distance. I love the free dash.
-at level 2 you regain all expended ki points when you roll Initiative and you also gain hit points equal to your monk level plus martial arts die. Usable once per long rest. At first glance I like this alot. Not convinced it solves the monks ki issues but combined with free dash and disengage it might be enough. For me it needs a closer look.
-Deflect Missiles now becomes deflect Attack and works with melee attacks. Damage returned to the enemy equal two martial arts die plus dex modifier or zero on a save. I love this! very on point for the monk. Still wished it was an attack roll instead of a saving throw. Expect this to be nerfed. The same damage reduction on melee attacks as the ranged might be too strong. I think they might cap it at dex modifier times per long rest.
-stunning strike duration is still until the beginning of your next turn but also does one martial arts die plus wisdom modifier force damage on a failed save. i think this is a nice compromise so it does not feel like a waste of resources when they make their save.
-level 10 flurry of blows can do a third attack. patient defense gives you temp hit points equal to two martial arts die. step of the wind lets you move a willing creature with you without provoking opportunity attacks. Monks needed a damage and survivability boost in tier three and four so this is good. Sotw gives a fun bonus for helping guys out of sticky situations.
-level 10 you can remove charm, frightened or poison at end of your turn.
-level 15 when you have 3 or less discipline points and roll Initiative you start with 4 points. It's better but overall still a meh feature.
-superior defense is now at beginning of turn instead of a bonus action. Excellent action economy improvement so you can still FOB in the same round you use this. Very good.
-capstone is +4 to dex and wisdom max 26. This is the capstone I was hoping for. Finally a worthy monk capstone!
Open Hand Monk
-Addle goes back to no saving throw. You also get a third attack from FOB at 10th level from base class for an extra attempt at pushing, tripping or addle.
-No ki cost for wholeness of Body. Still capped at wisdom modifier times per day.
-you can add step of the wind to any other bonus action. I assume that means bonus actions other than FOB or PD qualify.
-quivering Palm can now be activated with one of your attacks on the attack action.
Overall I have to say I am pleasantly surprised as there is more here than i was expecting. Alot of these changes are ideas we saw on these forums. Kudos to monk fans for speaking up. Keep in mind they can always nerf these changes but at first glance this does get me more excited to play monk than I have been in some time.
Agree with most of what you say, but on close look, monk ki expenditure is still high, metabolism won’t cover it. And flurry of blows is still always the best choice. So basically monk game play is, use same attack chain over and over, and the best oh crap buttons.
I like the deflect, grapples, and ba unarmed without attack action.
it’s definitely an improvement, but I don’t think monk gameplay will feel too different. Meanwhile everyone else gained a lot more choices. Good enough though
dex grapple / shove was so blisteringly obvious. i'm glad they eeked it into the last UA but i was prepared to bet money that it would be in the 2024 PHB regardless.
kinda shocked they didn't give the 'cunning strike' treatment to the new deflect or grapple attacks somehow. i'm still waiting for a skill that spells out grappling two creatures and then doing the 'hollow coconut sound' slam-together thing.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
This version of Monk is definitely in a healthier spot, it's damage is improved and failed stunning strikes doing damage is nice, the resource is no longer pointlessly wasted.
Deflect attacks is good but got to address the elephant in the room, it only works against Piercing, Slashing or Bludgeoning attacks. With magical weapons now seeming to do force damage, you can not deflect the attack of a magical weapon. Overall there will be more attacks that can be deflected since melee encompasses a significant amount of trash mobs that all do non-magical damage.
dex grapple / shove was so blisteringly obvious. i'm glad they eeked it into the last UA but i was prepared to bet money that it would be in the 2024 PHB regardless.
Kind of irrelevant though since grappling is so much less potent now, and shove has been completely replaced by weapon mastery. So it is still a bad option for monk.
i'm still waiting for a skill that spells out grappling two creatures and then doing the 'hollow coconut sound' slam-together thing.
That already essentially exists, you can freely grapple two creatures at the same time, then do the slam-together thing as an improvised attack.
This version of Monk is definitely in a healthier spot, it's damage is improved and failed stunning strikes doing damage is nice, the resource is no longer pointlessly wasted.
Deflect attacks is good but got to address the elephant in the room, it only works against Piercing, Slashing or Bludgeoning attacks. With magical weapons now seeming to do force damage, you can not deflect the attack of a magical weapon. Overall there will be more attacks that can be deflected since melee encompasses a significant amount of trash mobs that all do non-magical damage.
Nah, check the 13th-level feature. It adds the ability to deflect any damage type.
Monk is now pretty tanky, but otherwise the core game play loop is basically the same but with fewer choices than before.
The optimal playstyle for monk is:
Run up to one enemy and punch them, use Stunning Strike on whichever attack hits. if you think you have a surplus of ki, use Flurry of Blows. if you think you might drop unconscious, use Step of the Wind to run away (if facing ranged enemies us Patient Defense to run away instead).
It makes Monk a great option for new players though.
Monk is now pretty tanky, but otherwise the core game play loop is basically the same but with fewer choices than before.
The optimal playstyle for monk is:
Run up to one enemy and punch them, use Stunning Strike on whichever attack hits. if you think you have a surplus of ki, use Flurry of Blows. if you think you might drop unconscious, use Step of the Wind to run away (if facing ranged enemies us Patient Defense to run away instead).
It makes Monk a great option for new players though.
Noticeably every other class has many options now. ‘not so great for new players though, as they will run out of DP very often.
They've definitely made monk more durable, but it does still have the problem that, other than magic, its only damage increase in tiers 3 and 4 is increased martial arts die.
This version of Monk is definitely in a healthier spot, it's damage is improved and failed stunning strikes doing damage is nice, the resource is no longer pointlessly wasted.
Deflect attacks is good but got to address the elephant in the room, it only works against Piercing, Slashing or Bludgeoning attacks. With magical weapons now seeming to do force damage, you can not deflect the attack of a magical weapon. Overall there will be more attacks that can be deflected since melee encompasses a significant amount of trash mobs that all do non-magical damage.
Nah, check the 13th-level feature. It adds the ability to deflect any damage type.
was scanning, missed that, still gives 10 levels without that. Ah well.
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While I’m not ecstatic about all the monk changes, I have to give them credit for listening to everyone. I have seen all the changes they listed suggested on these forums.
even a dropped shotgun can hit the target sometimes.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
I don't mean to burden anybody, but would anybody who's jacked in to those arguments give a quick TL;DR about what the pain points are on the most recent UA monk? The main thread I see collected over a hundred pages since May, and hell no.
so far we've just got a video to go by, but the UA document itself should drop shortly.
[[ edit: it's out now... https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ua/ph-playtest-8 ]]
mostly stuff like rogue's cunning strike stealing open hand's addle but improving it. or flurry of blows, patient defense, and step of the wind should be 0-dp or maybe have a 1-dp 'power-up' option. etc etc. not exactly worth delving into again. gotta move forward with what we get here.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
The Monk looks incredible now. They're still MAD, but the sheer number of things you can do without discipline to help your survivability now is amazing. In addition, they've gotten their damage output buffed and various quality of life improvements.
I'm super excited to play this monk now!
it’s a better monk than before, some of this is nothing new.
Annddd they didn’t really solve monk ki issues here. The monk damage without ki is the same as before, the monk damage with ki has improved. You basically must flurry every turn. You also should stunning every turn. So, they will spend 2 ki per round, min. Subclasses expend more, deflect uses 1 ki. So you are looking at 2-4 ki per round, the monk will struggle after one to two fights.
also, BA features still can’t really compete. Dodge and step still gives up massive dps, never good to use them unless there is no choice
thier max damage has gone up, but the gameplay will still be basic attack flurry +stunning strike every turn, until you run out of ki, after 1-2 fights. No interesting choices
Not as much options as weapon mastery, but it has some interesting things now. Not super excited, but not de-resting any more.
Two fights per short rest most days seems reasonable to me, and with the ability to do more disc-free actions you can stretch your ki more easily.
For an emergency you have Uncanny Metabolism as well, though I wouldn't mind if that scaled up to 2-3 uses per LR.
Summary of monk changes:
-Bonus action unarmed strike and FOB no longer tied to the attack action. This is great.
-return of the martial arts die with weapons. This is good. Two weapon fighting monks are going to be bad ass.
-weapon masteries for monks are scrapped. It's a missed opportunity to add weapon masteries to unarmed strikes. Sad.
-proficiency in martial weapons with the light property. That adds shortsword and scimitar. I thought they would bring in tashas dedicated weapon. Looks like monks will have to take a feat to get better weapons.
-dexterity is now your save dc for grapple and shove options! I love this.
-patient defense is free bonus disengage and spend 1ki to Disengage and dodge. Not sure if these combine well but I love the free disengage.
-step of wind is free bonus dash and spend 1 ki to Dash and disengage with double jump distance. I love the free dash.
-at level 2 you regain all expended ki points when you roll Initiative and you also gain hit points equal to your monk level plus martial arts die. Usable once per long rest. At first glance I like this alot. Not convinced it solves the monks ki issues but combined with free dash and disengage it might be enough. For me it needs a closer look.
-Deflect Missiles now becomes deflect Attack and works with melee attacks. Damage returned to the enemy equal two martial arts die plus dex modifier or zero on a save. I love this! very on point for the monk. Still wished it was an attack roll instead of a saving throw. Expect this to be nerfed. The same damage reduction on melee attacks as the ranged might be too strong. I think they might cap it at dex modifier times per long rest.
-stunning strike duration is still until the beginning of your next turn but also does one martial arts die plus wisdom modifier force damage on a failed save. i think this is a nice compromise so it does not feel like a waste of resources when they make their save.
-level 10 flurry of blows can do a third attack. patient defense gives you temp hit points equal to two martial arts die. step of the wind lets you move a willing creature with you without provoking opportunity attacks. Monks needed a damage and survivability boost in tier three and four so this is good. Sotw gives a fun bonus for helping guys out of sticky situations.
-level 10 you can remove charm, frightened or poison at end of your turn.
-level 15 when you have 3 or less discipline points and roll Initiative you start with 4 points. It's better but overall still a meh feature.
-superior defense is now at beginning of turn instead of a bonus action. Excellent action economy improvement so you can still FOB in the same round you use this. Very good.
-capstone is +4 to dex and wisdom max 26. This is the capstone I was hoping for. Finally a worthy monk capstone!
Open Hand Monk
-Addle goes back to no saving throw. You also get a third attack from FOB at 10th level from base class for an extra attempt at pushing, tripping or addle.
-No ki cost for wholeness of Body. Still capped at wisdom modifier times per day.
-you can add step of the wind to any other bonus action. I assume that means bonus actions other than FOB or PD qualify.
-quivering Palm can now be activated with one of your attacks on the attack action.
Overall I have to say I am pleasantly surprised as there is more here than i was expecting. Alot of these changes are ideas we saw on these forums. Kudos to monk fans for speaking up. Keep in mind they can always nerf these changes but at first glance this does get me more excited to play monk than I have been in some time.
It’s only two fights for the first sr, then it’s 1 per.
‘the two include metabolism.
baseline monk without ki is still extremely poor, 3 attacks per round is bad damage.
average encounter lasts 4 rounds, you use two per round base line. So that’s 8 ki, most subs use at least 1 ki to set up. So you will be zero ki in first fight, use metabolism second fight.
also, you don’t really have BA options, unless you plan to do only 2 attacks per round, with no fighting style, rage, hunters mark, blessed strikes etc. None of the BA compete with flurry. The optimal choice for any situation where you aren’t dead is spam attack and stunning strike.
crawford missed the mark with hats on hats, monk doesn’t really have lots of option on a turn to turn, or attack to attack basis.
Agree with most of what you say, but on close look, monk ki expenditure is still high, metabolism won’t cover it. And flurry of blows is still always the best choice. So basically monk game play is, use same attack chain over and over, and the best oh crap buttons.
I like the deflect, grapples, and ba unarmed without attack action.
it’s definitely an improvement, but I don’t think monk gameplay will feel too different. Meanwhile everyone else gained a lot more choices. Good enough though
dex grapple / shove was so blisteringly obvious. i'm glad they eeked it into the last UA but i was prepared to bet money that it would be in the 2024 PHB regardless.
kinda shocked they didn't give the 'cunning strike' treatment to the new deflect or grapple attacks somehow. i'm still waiting for a skill that spells out grappling two creatures and then doing the 'hollow coconut sound' slam-together thing.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
This version of Monk is definitely in a healthier spot, it's damage is improved and failed stunning strikes doing damage is nice, the resource is no longer pointlessly wasted.
Deflect attacks is good but got to address the elephant in the room, it only works against Piercing, Slashing or Bludgeoning attacks. With magical weapons now seeming to do force damage, you can not deflect the attack of a magical weapon. Overall there will be more attacks that can be deflected since melee encompasses a significant amount of trash mobs that all do non-magical damage.
Kind of irrelevant though since grappling is so much less potent now, and shove has been completely replaced by weapon mastery. So it is still a bad option for monk.
That already essentially exists, you can freely grapple two creatures at the same time, then do the slam-together thing as an improvised attack.
Nah, check the 13th-level feature. It adds the ability to deflect any damage type.
Monk is now pretty tanky, but otherwise the core game play loop is basically the same but with fewer choices than before.
The optimal playstyle for monk is:
Run up to one enemy and punch them, use Stunning Strike on whichever attack hits.
if you think you have a surplus of ki, use Flurry of Blows.
if you think you might drop unconscious, use Step of the Wind to run away (if facing ranged enemies us Patient Defense to run away instead).
It makes Monk a great option for new players though.
Noticeably every other class has many options now.
‘not so great for new players though, as they will run out of DP very often.
By giving monks access to martial weapons, they now have access to more feats.
Looks like they forgot to include the DC for Stunning Strike.[added]Quivering Palm too.[edit]
Covered by the last paragraph under Monk's Discipline.
Thanks for pointing it out @Gwar1.
They've definitely made monk more durable, but it does still have the problem that, other than magic, its only damage increase in tiers 3 and 4 is increased martial arts die.
was scanning, missed that, still gives 10 levels without that. Ah well.