I expect/hope the Grappler feat to get rehashed in UA9 based on feedback to UA7 Fighter's Brawler subclass. The Grappler feat could be an auto-grapple when an an Unarmed Strike hits (good for Monks) or it could be a Bonus Action Grapple (bad for Monks) or the feat could force the target to make grapple saves with disadvantage. Until we know what the final Grappler feat looks like, it is hard to know if Monk will be a feasible grappler or not. If the 4th Fighter subclass is Rune Knight, that will likely be a part of most grappling builds because of the ability to become Large size and Grapple Huge creatures.
I realized another concern I have with Open Hand Monk. Its level 3, 7, and 17 abilities are all WIS based. In 5E this was ok, as high WIS enables spamming Stunning Strike. In 1DND UA8, Monks gain less from WIS because Stunning Strike is once per turn and survivability is ensured by Deflect Attack instead of Unarmored Defense.
Suggestion: What if Open Hand Monk got a 4th option for Open Hand Technique? Something like forcing a WIS saving throw or the target becomes Frightened.
Maybe I missed something, but did JC say that all classes in the PHB will have a "subclass that will be in Basic". So there will be a basic wizard and basic bard and basic cleric subclass too?
Both Jeremy Crawford and Kyle Brink have said there'll either be a new 2024 SRD, or a conversion guide for the existing 5.1, and that is what Basic is based on. But the important thing is, no matter which of those two approaches they take, Open Hand will be the Monk that's in the Basic rules, i.e. the one most new players will see.
In the current Basic/SRD, the 12 subclasses are: Berserker Barbarian, Lore Bard, Life Cleric, Land Druid, Champion Fighter, Open Hand Monk, Devotion Paladin, Hunter Ranger, Draconic Sorcerer, Fiend Warlock, and Evoker Wizard.
It's ok, sure, fine. But it isn't great especially for the subclasses defining feature. It was a very good feature in 2014 (which it's basically the same as UA8 other than UA8's doesn't require the Attack action and Addle is OA only not all Reactions). But the introduction of Weapon Masteries makes it less so of a good feature. Being able to Push a little further (+5', no size restriction, but they get a save) and Topple with a better saving throw doesn't scream good stand alone subclass feature.
Getting all of those things in one feature however does make for a good subclass feature, especially since using it doesn't cost them any damage. It's just an add-on to the thing they already do, similar to how Evoker's features just upgrade the thing they'll be doing too (area and cantrip blasting.)
Even being OA-only, Addle is a big deal; that plus Fleet Step makes them one of the best martial skirmishers in the game save perhaps Echo Knight, and vastly better than 2014 OH. They can get in, land all 4-6 attacks, snag somebody and get back out, all for 1 DP, staying above the curve in both damage and utility/control.
Maybe I missed something, but did JC say that all classes in the PHB will have a "subclass that will be in Basic". So there will be a basic wizard and basic bard and basic cleric subclass too?
Both Jeremy Crawford and Kyle Brink have said there'll either be a new 2024 SRD, or a conversion guide for the existing 5.1, and that is what Basic is based on. But the important thing is, no matter which of those two approaches they take, Open Hand will be the Monk that's in the Basic rules, i.e. the one most new players will see.
In the current Basic/SRD, the 12 subclasses are: Berserker Barbarian, Lore Bard, Life Cleric, Land Druid, Champion Fighter, Open Hand Monk, Devotion Paladin, Hunter Ranger, Draconic Sorcerer, Fiend Warlock, and Evoker Wizard.
It's ok, sure, fine. But it isn't great especially for the subclasses defining feature. It was a very good feature in 2014 (which it's basically the same as UA8 other than UA8's doesn't require the Attack action and Addle is OA only not all Reactions). But the introduction of Weapon Masteries makes it less so of a good feature. Being able to Push a little further (+5', no size restriction, but they get a save) and Topple with a better saving throw doesn't scream good stand alone subclass feature.
Getting all of those things in one feature however does make for a good subclass feature, especially since using it doesn't cost them any damage. It's just an add-on to the thing they already do, similar to how Evoker's features just upgrade the thing they'll be doing too (area and cantrip blasting.)
Even being OA-only, Addle is a big deal; that plus Fleet Step makes them one of the best martial skirmishers in the game save perhaps Echo Knight, and vastly better than 2014 OH. They can get in, land all 4-6 attacks, snag somebody and get back out, all for 1 DP, staying above the curve in both damage and utility/control.
It’s funny, I could basically use your first paragraph in reference to Weapon Masteries. WM covers 2/3 of OHT. And Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, and War Domain clerics, and anyone getting the feat also have access to. Is the differences between OHT Push/Topple and WM Push/Topple big enough to count as your main subclass feature?
Addle is good even if it’s OA only. I wasn’t trying to say it wasn’t.
Im just saying if WM was never introduced then Open Hand monk would basically be perfect. But since WM does exist, Hand loses a little something.
We were specifically talking about Grappling, and 88% chance of success (2014) vs ~45% (UA) chance of success is a massive gap.
The difficulty with comparing these is that grappling is now worse for everyone thanks to the switch to a save DC from contested checks. The main problem though is that it's a lot harder now to bolster it, as even the Grappler feat (at least as proposed in playtest 2) doesn't make the saving throw any harder, just lets your unarmed strike deal damage + grapple once per turn, plus some other side benefits.
Barbarians made great grapplers before but now don't since there's no interaction with the saving throw, and that's partly the problem for Monks as well I think. It would be nice if we had a way to impose disadvantage, like an extra attack option or something.
Extra attack options is something I feel Monk might still be missing; when they nerfed Stunning Strike I was hoping it would be accompanied by some alternative options but we still haven't got any. 1 Discipline on a hit to impose disadvantage on the next saving throw vs. Grapple/Shove could be ideal as you can do that early then immediately follow up. Two or three other options would really help with Weapon Mastery being dropped, as we're still mostly just Flurry of Blows and/or Stunning Strike for base attack options.
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Any ally can let you grapple them so open hand monk does not even have to wait until level 11 to move a willing ally. They just do it way better at level 11. Grappling as an ability check in 5e was busted because players that had expertise and/or advantage on grapple checks against monsters that generally did not even have proficiency in athletics or acrobatics was never a contest. It needed a fix and i think they did a good job of that.
Is the differences between OHT Push/Topple and WM Push/Topple big enough to count as your main subclass feature?
Yes - because Push/Topple is not all OHT does. And again, OHT can freely do both in a single attack sequence - WM cannot, without material build restrictions.
Yes - because Push/Topple is not all OHT does. And again, OHT can freely do both in a single attack sequence - WM cannot, without material build restrictions.
An Open Hand Monk could Push and Topple in the same turn, but I'm failing to think of a good reason why, or why doing so presents a material advantage. If you want to knock an enemy prone, the Topple mastery exists. If you want to push an enemy into a more advantageous position or into a hazard, the Push mastery is guaranteed to apply on hit. There isn't any sort of scenario where pushing a prone enemy does something unique that wouldn't otherwise be possible.
Come to think of it, a Battle Master could do the same by using a maneuver and Weapon Mastery on the same attack. So it isn't even unique to the Open Hand Monk.
Sorry, I don't know what you are going on about here? We were specifically talking about Grappling, and 88% chance of success (2014) vs ~45% (UA) chance of success is a massive gap. Disengaging is completely pointless if you are grappling, so I haven't a clue what you are talking about there, and it is 95% of the time pointless on an OH monk because using FoB let's you prevent the enemy attacking you anyway and it does 2 attacks worth of damage at the same time, alternatively stunning them also prevents them from attacking you and doesn't reduce your DPR at all. Dashing as a monk is almost never necessary since your movement speed is so high anyway.
UA8 hasn't really improved OH like at all over 2014 it just undid the nerfs of the previous UA that utterly killed OH, though Deflect Attack and the bonus damage on a save vs stunning strike are definitely major improvements for the base class, everything else is more or less a wash.
Source: I played a 2014 OH monk for a year long campaign.
Sorry but no. The current 5e Open Hand Monk + Skill Expert feat makes a better grappler than the UA8 OH monk.
I'm disputing your definition of "better grappler." Challenging the other side's premise is how debates work.
Successfully landing a grapple only to be stuck in enemy melee with subpar defenses, get swarmed and die does not make you a better grappler.
And even if I went with your narrow definition of "better grappler can only ever mean having a higher chance to succeed at the grapple check in a white room vacuum, irrespective of everything that happens after the grapple," UA8 still wins. Because with 2024 Grappler, they can make two grapple checks for free without sacrificing any attacks, and then sacrifice their extra flurry attempt to try, all without losing any damage relative to the 2014 version. Therefore, even with a lower chance to land the grapple, they get three times as many chances before needing to sacrifice relative damage - one of those will succeed.
And "no improvement over 2014 OH" is just utterly wrong.
the grappler feat is one time per turn, you can't do it multiple times for free.
Punch and Grab. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack Action on your turn, you can deal damage to the target and also grapple it. You can use this benefit only once per turn.
And the grappler feat is not an OH monk feature. OH monk is no better at using it than any other character.
We were specifically talking about Grappling, and 88% chance of success (2014) vs ~45% (UA) chance of success is a massive gap.
The difficulty with comparing these is that grappling is now worse for everyone thanks to the switch to a save DC from contested checks. The main problem though is that it's a lot harder now to bolster it, as even the Grappler feat (at least as proposed in playtest 2) doesn't make the saving throw any harder, just lets your unarmed strike deal damage + grapple once per turn, plus some other side benefits.
Barbarians made great grapplers before but now don't since there's no interaction with the saving throw, and that's partly the problem for Monks as well I think. It would be nice if we had a way to impose disadvantage, like an extra attack option or something.
Extra attack options is something I feel Monk might still be missing; when they nerfed Stunning Strike I was hoping it would be accompanied by some alternative options but we still haven't got any. 1 Discipline on a hit to impose disadvantage on the next saving throw vs. Grapple/Shove could be ideal as you can do that early then immediately follow up. Two or three other options would really help with Weapon Mastery being dropped, as we're still mostly just Flurry of Blows and/or Stunning Strike for base attack options.
yes, I was thinking addle should be.
addle: enemy can't make op attacks. and has to make a wis (or int) save or have lower saving throws(could be disadvantage, or -PB to saves) until the start of their next turn.
this way addle can help set up monks other controlling effects, or help teammates, if they act before the monster. Now it becomes a useful unique feature that represents you confusing or lowering their ability to react. Since they don't want them stopping reactions any more.
You literally cannot grapple and not be in melee with the enemy so I do not understand what your point is? Why on earth would anyone grapple, then punch, then let go of the creature you grappled, then disengage and run away? It doesn't make any sense?! Dodging is pointless when they already has Disadvantage b/c they are prone.
You don't have to let go; you can take them out with you. And with 2024 Grappler, you don't even lose any speed doing so - yet another advantage of 2024 over 2014. Sillvva spelled all this out in their post, bold is entirely your invention.
you know, you probably can't carry anyone with a 10 or 8 str? more than 15*(str score) lbs sets your speed to 5. (if you international, the average man ways 180lbs)
You'd probably need to boost strength or be a race with powerful build. if your lucky, the dm may let you make a roll for it and bend the rule
Is the differences between OHT Push/Topple and WM Push/Topple big enough to count as your main subclass feature?
Yes - because Push/Topple is not all OHT does. And again, OHT can freely do both in a single attack sequence - WM cannot, without material build restrictions.
main class features aren't just about what other monks can do, its about others in your role, and every other martial gets two masteries, and can swap weapons at least one time.
ranger/warlock/paladin/barbarian can topple/push 3 times a round, and on reactions. Fighter can topple/push 5 times a round and on reactions.they can swap weapons and do either one.
This is not unique functionality. this is a level 1 feature for other martials. They chose not to give monk this basic functionality, mostly so they could give it back in subclasses and features. But that is lame.
As for thats not all it does, it also provides a weak heal you probably will only use out of combat. at 11 is its first decent feature, which isnt that emblematic of an openhand fighter, (and also after most published campaigns end). Subclasses in 5e need their defining class feature at 3 or 6, with the rest generally enhancing the concept, or theme.
people are happy that monk base class is improved, and that they can start to make use of the good new additions of 2024, but the OH subclass itself is not a good look in the context of onednd martials.
An Open Hand Monk could Push and Topple in the same turn, but I'm failing to think of a good reason why, or why doing so presents a material advantage. If you want to knock an enemy prone, the Topple mastery exists. If you want to push an enemy into a more advantageous position or into a hazard, the Push mastery is guaranteed to apply on hit. There isn't any sort of scenario where pushing a prone enemy does something unique that wouldn't otherwise be possible.
Come to think of it, a Battle Master could do the same by using a maneuver and Weapon Mastery on the same attack. So it isn't even unique to the Open Hand Monk.
1) You don't have to direct all your attacks on your turn at the same target. Addling or Pushing away one enemy so that you can Topple/Grapple/Drag Away the one that was next to them without provoking is an option, and better yet, it's an option that doesn't cost you any damage.
2) Whether combining OHT in the same attack sequence comes up routinely isn't relevant - again, it's an option. Options for martials are good.
3) Sure, BM can combine their maneuvers with WM too, but a Superiority Die is a much more limited resource than a single DP, and again, they're targeting a stronger save. Also "BM Fighter can do this too" is completely irrelevant if my character concept is a monk. This is like saying "Fiendlock can cast Fireball too!" to somebody who specifically wants to be a Light Cleric.
the grappler feat is one time per turn, you can't do it multiple times for free. And the grappler feat is not an OH monk feature. OH monk is no better at using it than any other character.
2024 monk getting one punch-and-grab is still one more than 2014 monk gets (i.e. zero). Grappler is also a half-feat now, so fitting it onto the MAD monk is trivial.
As for "no better at using it," this is wrong too - Grappler's negation of the drag speed reduction is extremely useful for a monk, especially one who doesn't want to stand around gormlessly in melee range of the enemy. In combat, OH monk is a flanker/skirmisher/striker that repeatedly dives priority targets and gets out again, including with the target in tow if needed. Throw in a run up the wall to the ceiling near your allies for even more damage.
Hm... actually, there is one way that Monk in the UA is a ok grappler (well better than anyone else in the UA). That's by using Stunning Strike. Stunned causes auto-fail STR & DEX saves, so you could combo: Stunning Strike + Grappler to attempt to stun & grab an enemy to push them into some spell AoE. That would give you a 30% chance to stun + 40% chance to grapple even if not stunned for a 58% chance to grapple overall without losing DPR, or if you substitute one additional attack with an attempt to grapple a 75% chance to successfully grapple.
This is only a little bit behind the current Mercy Monk + Skill Expert : 65% chance to hit & poison with Hands of Harm followed by 70% chance to grapple plus Advantage which gives you 83.65% chance to Grapple. - in both cases spending only 1 DP and wasting 1 attack on attempting to grapple. [Skill Expert is already a half-feat so doesn't conflict with upper your monk's Dex].
Hm... actually, there is one way that Monk in the UA is a ok grappler (well better than anyone else in the UA). That's by using Stunning Strike. Stunned causes auto-fail STR & DEX saves, so you could combo: Stunning Strike + Grappler to attempt to stun & grab an enemy to push them into some spell AoE.
The problem with the tactic of pulling an enemy into spell AoE via grappling is that typically also puts you into the spell AoE. Unlike pushing an enemy, which every other martial can now do much more easily than the Open Hand Monk.
Tactics that rely heavily on percentage odds multiple times are hardly worth it against abilities that work every time you land a hit.
(Also, another class that can prone + push on the same attack: Barbarians with Brutal Strike.)
level 6 feature is reworked, similar power level, but used differently instead of one big heal as an action, its smaller heals throught the day as a BA. scales based on wis instead of level. Interestingly, for the new monk, the action has less value than the BA. So its actually less useful in combat than the old would be in dnd.
level 11 feature, its an improvement, but it was pretty bad before.
level 17 is nerf. not surprising because it was a ko move.
overall its probably a nerf. but thats mostly due to quivering.
but the big difference is the level 3 feature and the level 6 feature are worse relative to one dnd. push and topple are available to all, and healing spells improved,
shadow and elements utility, gameplay, and power improved, and other monk subclasses will benefit more from the decoupling of BA from actions.
the OH monk in the onednd world is the new lowbar sub for monk. Well drunken fist is worse, but it hasn't been reworked yet.
Did we read the same PDF?
Level 3 feature isn't a nerf. It just works differently to account for new design philosophy for monsters. Lots of evidence suggests that monster Reactions are a big way that WOTC is redesigning future creatures and encounters to be more consistent in the CR calculation. A level 3 subclass feature that turns off Reactions is way too powerful in that context. Addle effectively leaves Monks at the same power level they had previously where Reactions were essentially non-existent except as Opportunity Attacks.
Level 11 Feature, when combined with the Level 10 feature changes to Step of the Wind and the Level 9 Acrobatic Movement feature, is Capstone level overpowered. 1DP to carry a friendly creature over 100ft without provoking opportunity attacks to either of you and you essentially get Flying speed in the process, AND you can make your full attack and FOB at the end? The combat implications of this are staggering. This didn't just clear a low bar, this may be the single most powerful mobility skill in the game that doesn't involve the Wish spell. And I'm all for it. This makes OHM the best support character in the game for getting other Martial classes into combat.
Level 17: Yes, it's true you can no longer theoretically do literally infinite damage to a creature over 2 turns and that's a nerf that is disappointing, but honestly a realistic outcome that most people were anticipating. However, it is ALSO true that you can now do the entire sequence over the course of a single turn (or even set up during a Reaction) during which you can ALSO use your FOB, Dash, and Stunning Strike features. This actually means that on a successful save they still take half the 10d12 damage they did previously - because previously it took 2 turns before that 10d12 could be applied. But on a failed save, they now take DOUBLE that damage because it occurs in only half the time. Which means you can potentially set it up to happen again the next turn for four times the original DPR. If they succeed both times, they still take the full 10d12. It's not infinite damage true, but if this is a nerf at 20d12 QP damage plus the outcome of 10 attacks for only 10DP imagine what you'd need to call an actual damage or reliability buff "balanced."
I want to say that again for the folks in the back: Assuming you use FOB, Deflect Attack and Stunning Strike and everything connects for damage and all saves are failed (except Stunning Strike for more MA dice), Quivering Palm now allows you to do a hypothetical 36d12 + modifiers damage over the course of 2 turns for 12 DP.
I want to say that again for the folks in the back: Assuming you use FOB, Deflect Attack and Stunning Strike and everything connects for damage and all saves are failed (except Stunning Strike for more MA dice), Quivering Palm now allows you to do a hypothetical 36d12 + modifiers damage over the course of 2 turns for 12 DP.
If that's what a nerf looks like, bring it on.
If that's what the One D&D Monk looks like, I'll leave it behind.
It kind of sums up everything that there are people who look at the Monk's iconic control feature, the one some folks treated as the only Monk ability worth using...and now want enemies to pass the saving throw, just because that means slightly more DPR. The Monk people want is a class that actually wants to get hit and wants enemies to pass their saving throws, apparently.
Edit: Also, the philosophy behind this is...ridiculous from a standpoint of resource management as the game and especially the Monk is built around. You're actually expending your Discipline Points in an non-optimal way solely to maximize short-term damage. The only way playing like this is viable is if you have two encounters a day that last three rounds each.
And it's clear from the once-a-day Discipline restore that this kind of playstyle is what the One D&D Monk is trying to cater solely to, sadly.
I want to say that again for the folks in the back: Assuming you use FOB, Deflect Attack and Stunning Strike and everything connects for damage and all saves are failed (except Stunning Strike for more MA dice), Quivering Palm now allows you to do a hypothetical 36d12 + modifiers damage over the course of 2 turns for 12 DP.
If that's what a nerf looks like, bring it on.
If that's what the One D&D Monk looks like, I'll leave it behind.
It kind of sums up everything that there are people who look at the Monk's iconic control feature, the one some folks treated as the only Monk ability worth using...and now want enemies to pass the saving throw, just because that means slightly more DPR. The Monk people want is a class that actually wants to get hit and wants enemies to pass their saving throws, apparently.
Edit: Also, the philosophy behind this is...ridiculous from a standpoint of resource management as the game and especially the Monk is built around. You're actually expending your Discipline Points in an non-optimal way solely to maximize short-term damage. The only way playing like this is viable is if you have two encounters a day that last three rounds each.
And it's clear from the once-a-day Discipline restore that this kind of playstyle is what the One D&D Monk is trying to cater solely to, sadly.
You know you don't have to play the One DND monk right? You clearly believe the 2014 version is 100% fine. Just stick to that?
The problem with the tactic of pulling an enemy into spell AoE via grappling is that typically also puts you into the spell AoE.
This shouldn't be a problem; the moveable clause of Grappled lets you "drag or carry" the grappled target, so you should be able to move up against the edge of the effect then place them into it, either by lifting and dropping, or dragging them to the side. As a DM I'd probably require enough spare movement to have moved into the area yourself though, otherwise you'd be allowing "free" movement that could be abused.
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You know you don't have to play the One DND monk right? You clearly believe the 2014 version is 100% fine. Just stick to that?
There's really no disputing that the One D&D revisions of classes are better. They have more options, more versatility, new features, improved features. Most One D&D classes are straight upgrades from the original classes.
Rather than giving more options to the One D&D Monk, they've altered features to make them more damage-oriented while taking away numerous control and utility options, with no new utility options like other martials have received.
So your choice when playing alongside other One D&D class is to either play the 5e Monk/subclasses, which lacks any sort of improvements or adjustments like other classes received, or you play the One D&D Monk/subclasses and lose out on control and utility options the Monk already had.
Why does the Shadow Monk have to lose the ability to cast Silence? Why does the Elements Monk need to lose out on their utility options in favour of generic options that are derivative of existing subclasses? Why is Tongue of the Sun and Moon a feature the Monk should lose? Heck, why is Stunning Strike something that's reasonable to limit to one use per turn, but other martials can have the ability to knock enemies prone on every attack they make, without any sort of cost for doing so? Why is other classes getting new features that allow for different control/utility options good, but it's okay if not right for the Monk to have existing features stripped of complexity and options?
It tells the players who took full advantage of what the Monk had to offer that their enjoyment of the class doesn't matter, because other people wanted the class to be something different. And if the tables I played Monk at wanted me to play something different than what I wanted to play, I wouldn't play with those tables, and I probably wouldn't play the game at all if this was a prevalent opinion - or one the designers believe my experience should be dictated by.
To put it bluntly: Why does what you want the Monk to be matter more than what people who enjoy the Monk want it to be?
I want to say that again for the folks in the back: Assuming you use FOB, Deflect Attack and Stunning Strike and everything connects for damage and all saves are failed (except Stunning Strike for more MA dice), Quivering Palm now allows you to do a hypothetical 36d12 + modifiers damage over the course of 2 turns for 12 DP.
If that's what a nerf looks like, bring it on.
If that's what the One D&D Monk looks like, I'll leave it behind.
It kind of sums up everything that there are people who look at the Monk's iconic control feature, the one some folks treated as the only Monk ability worth using...and now want enemies to pass the saving throw, just because that means slightly more DPR. The Monk people want is a class that actually wants to get hit and wants enemies to pass their saving throws, apparently.
Edit: Also, the philosophy behind this is...ridiculous from a standpoint of resource management as the game and especially the Monk is built around. You're actually expending your Discipline Points in an non-optimal way solely to maximize short-term damage. The only way playing like this is viable is if you have two encounters a day that last three rounds each.
And it's clear from the once-a-day Discipline restore that this kind of playstyle is what the One D&D Monk is trying to cater solely to, sadly.
I'm not advocating it. I'm pointing out the absurdity of calling the Monk "nerfed" compared to the 2014 version. A big problem that myself and others have with the 2014 class and subclasses is that they had very dramatic descriptions of what they do, but mechanically they were doing the same things as other classes, but worse. Rolling the same dice, but with a restriction or prerequisite or cost that other classes didn't have. I didn't mind that there were tradeoffs to being a Monk. I just wanted the Monk to do Monk things as well as Fighters did Fighting things, or Rogues could pickpocket and search for traps, or Wizards could create a solution to a difficult puzzle from thin air and spell slots. But since WOTC didn't seem to have a clear idea about what Monks were supposed to do differently, they just did the same things without the features to really make them stand out. One of those things was how the Monk is constantly dealing with a clock that counts down their effectiveness to zero, because when the 2014 Monk runs out of Ki Points it loses access to most of its unique class and subclass features. It becomes a Fighter but without all of the features that keep Fighters effective when they run out of Action Surges and Second Winds.
I really like the new Monk. Not because it's absurdly broken powerful, but because it now remains a Monk when the class resource is finally depleted. I like that I won't need to Mother-May-I-Take-A-Short-Rest in between every single combat to be relevant. I like that I can use my Discipline Points to lend my unique Monk abilities to my allies, or break the action economy instead of standing still and trading blows until either myself or my target reaches 0 HP. I like that the cool Reaction power I used to have only in specific circumstances if the DM decided to give me a treat with a ranged attack now happens almost every time I'm in combat, so I feel that it's always contributing.
That's the part I like the most, actually. In 2014, Monk features would be very impactful every once in a while, or maybe be a big deal once in a long term high level campaign. In UA8, your Monk features in and out of combat are going to be something you get to make use of almost every session. You are always going to need to move. You are always going to need to manage your Discipline Points. You are always going to need to worry about the next encounter and if its better to take the lead on the offense or to get another character into their most optimal position. But unless your DM has some very radical ideas about how to create a D&D campaign, you are almost never going to worry about growing old. You are never going to have to worry about solving a language barrier so complex it requires a 13th level class feature. You don't have to worry about long-term illness or dying of starvation in most D&D campaigns. Astral projection is an interesting concept for a session, but is it really something that we need to hold off on exploring until 18th level? That's Season 2 material at best. And it's probably not going to come up more than once or twice ever.
By all means, stay with your 2014 Monk and subclasses. Maybe your table is that rare, radical place where all of the ribbon features of the 2014 Monk get maximum usage. But at a lot of tables, this version of the class and subclasses is going to gel a lot better with how the game is actually being played.
Hm... actually, there is one way that Monk in the UA is a ok grappler (well better than anyone else in the UA). That's by using Stunning Strike. Stunned causes auto-fail STR & DEX saves, so you could combo: Stunning Strike + Grappler to attempt to stun & grab an enemy to push them into some spell AoE.
The problem with the tactic of pulling an enemy into spell AoE via grappling is that typically also puts you into the spell AoE. Unlike pushing an enemy, which every other martial can now do much more easily than the Open Hand Monk.
Tactics that rely heavily on percentage odds multiple times are hardly worth it against abilities that work every time you land a hit.
(Also, another class that can prone + push on the same attack: Barbarians with Brutal Strike.)
The part you are missing is that Grappled characters don't suddenly combine into the same occupied space as the grappler. You can just hold the Grappled target at arm's length in their own space and drag them through a Moonbeam or Spike Growth without ever entering it yourself. And with Monk's ability to move extra far and features that let you move grappled characters without a penalty, that's a lot of movement to make someone enter a spell effect repeatedly.
I expect/hope the Grappler feat to get rehashed in UA9 based on feedback to UA7 Fighter's Brawler subclass. The Grappler feat could be an auto-grapple when an an Unarmed Strike hits (good for Monks) or it could be a Bonus Action Grapple (bad for Monks) or the feat could force the target to make grapple saves with disadvantage. Until we know what the final Grappler feat looks like, it is hard to know if Monk will be a feasible grappler or not. If the 4th Fighter subclass is Rune Knight, that will likely be a part of most grappling builds because of the ability to become Large size and Grapple Huge creatures.
I realized another concern I have with Open Hand Monk. Its level 3, 7, and 17 abilities are all WIS based. In 5E this was ok, as high WIS enables spamming Stunning Strike. In 1DND UA8, Monks gain less from WIS because Stunning Strike is once per turn and survivability is ensured by Deflect Attack instead of Unarmored Defense.
Suggestion: What if Open Hand Monk got a 4th option for Open Hand Technique? Something like forcing a WIS saving throw or the target becomes Frightened.
Both Jeremy Crawford and Kyle Brink have said there'll either be a new 2024 SRD, or a conversion guide for the existing 5.1, and that is what Basic is based on. But the important thing is, no matter which of those two approaches they take, Open Hand will be the Monk that's in the Basic rules, i.e. the one most new players will see.
In the current Basic/SRD, the 12 subclasses are: Berserker Barbarian, Lore Bard, Life Cleric, Land Druid, Champion Fighter, Open Hand Monk, Devotion Paladin, Hunter Ranger, Draconic Sorcerer, Fiend Warlock, and Evoker Wizard.
Getting all of those things in one feature however does make for a good subclass feature, especially since using it doesn't cost them any damage. It's just an add-on to the thing they already do, similar to how Evoker's features just upgrade the thing they'll be doing too (area and cantrip blasting.)
Even being OA-only, Addle is a big deal; that plus Fleet Step makes them one of the best martial skirmishers in the game save perhaps Echo Knight, and vastly better than 2014 OH. They can get in, land all 4-6 attacks, snag somebody and get back out, all for 1 DP, staying above the curve in both damage and utility/control.
It’s funny, I could basically use your first paragraph in reference to Weapon Masteries. WM covers 2/3 of OHT. And Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, and War Domain clerics, and anyone getting the feat also have access to. Is the differences between OHT Push/Topple and WM Push/Topple big enough to count as your main subclass feature?
Addle is good even if it’s OA only. I wasn’t trying to say it wasn’t.
Im just saying if WM was never introduced then Open Hand monk would basically be perfect. But since WM does exist, Hand loses a little something.
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The difficulty with comparing these is that grappling is now worse for everyone thanks to the switch to a save DC from contested checks. The main problem though is that it's a lot harder now to bolster it, as even the Grappler feat (at least as proposed in playtest 2) doesn't make the saving throw any harder, just lets your unarmed strike deal damage + grapple once per turn, plus some other side benefits.
Barbarians made great grapplers before but now don't since there's no interaction with the saving throw, and that's partly the problem for Monks as well I think. It would be nice if we had a way to impose disadvantage, like an extra attack option or something.
Extra attack options is something I feel Monk might still be missing; when they nerfed Stunning Strike I was hoping it would be accompanied by some alternative options but we still haven't got any. 1 Discipline on a hit to impose disadvantage on the next saving throw vs. Grapple/Shove could be ideal as you can do that early then immediately follow up. Two or three other options would really help with Weapon Mastery being dropped, as we're still mostly just Flurry of Blows and/or Stunning Strike for base attack options.
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Any ally can let you grapple them so open hand monk does not even have to wait until level 11 to move a willing ally. They just do it way better at level 11. Grappling as an ability check in 5e was busted because players that had expertise and/or advantage on grapple checks against monsters that generally did not even have proficiency in athletics or acrobatics was never a contest. It needed a fix and i think they did a good job of that.
I already covered the multiple drawbacks of WM that OHT doesn't have.
Yes - because Push/Topple is not all OHT does. And again, OHT can freely do both in a single attack sequence - WM cannot, without material build restrictions.
An Open Hand Monk could Push and Topple in the same turn, but I'm failing to think of a good reason why, or why doing so presents a material advantage. If you want to knock an enemy prone, the Topple mastery exists. If you want to push an enemy into a more advantageous position or into a hazard, the Push mastery is guaranteed to apply on hit. There isn't any sort of scenario where pushing a prone enemy does something unique that wouldn't otherwise be possible.
Come to think of it, a Battle Master could do the same by using a maneuver and Weapon Mastery on the same attack. So it isn't even unique to the Open Hand Monk.
the grappler feat is one time per turn, you can't do it multiple times for free.
And the grappler feat is not an OH monk feature. OH monk is no better at using it than any other character.
yes, I was thinking addle should be.
addle: enemy can't make op attacks. and has to make a wis (or int) save or have lower saving throws(could be disadvantage, or -PB to saves) until the start of their next turn.
this way addle can help set up monks other controlling effects, or help teammates, if they act before the monster. Now it becomes a useful unique feature that represents you confusing or lowering their ability to react. Since they don't want them stopping reactions any more.
you know, you probably can't carry anyone with a 10 or 8 str? more than 15*(str score) lbs sets your speed to 5. (if you international, the average man ways 180lbs)
You'd probably need to boost strength or be a race with powerful build. if your lucky, the dm may let you make a roll for it and bend the rule
main class features aren't just about what other monks can do, its about others in your role, and every other martial gets two masteries, and can swap weapons at least one time.
ranger/warlock/paladin/barbarian can topple/push 3 times a round, and on reactions. Fighter can topple/push 5 times a round and on reactions.they can swap weapons and do either one.
This is not unique functionality. this is a level 1 feature for other martials. They chose not to give monk this basic functionality, mostly so they could give it back in subclasses and features. But that is lame.
As for thats not all it does, it also provides a weak heal you probably will only use out of combat. at 11 is its first decent feature, which isnt that emblematic of an openhand fighter, (and also after most published campaigns end). Subclasses in 5e need their defining class feature at 3 or 6, with the rest generally enhancing the concept, or theme.
people are happy that monk base class is improved, and that they can start to make use of the good new additions of 2024, but the OH subclass itself is not a good look in the context of onednd martials.
1) You don't have to direct all your attacks on your turn at the same target. Addling or Pushing away one enemy so that you can Topple/Grapple/Drag Away the one that was next to them without provoking is an option, and better yet, it's an option that doesn't cost you any damage.
2) Whether combining OHT in the same attack sequence comes up routinely isn't relevant - again, it's an option. Options for martials are good.
3) Sure, BM can combine their maneuvers with WM too, but a Superiority Die is a much more limited resource than a single DP, and again, they're targeting a stronger save. Also "BM Fighter can do this too" is completely irrelevant if my character concept is a monk. This is like saying "Fiendlock can cast Fireball too!" to somebody who specifically wants to be a Light Cleric.
2024 monk getting one punch-and-grab is still one more than 2014 monk gets (i.e. zero). Grappler is also a half-feat now, so fitting it onto the MAD monk is trivial.
As for "no better at using it," this is wrong too - Grappler's negation of the drag speed reduction is extremely useful for a monk, especially one who doesn't want to stand around gormlessly in melee range of the enemy. In combat, OH monk is a flanker/skirmisher/striker that repeatedly dives priority targets and gets out again, including with the target in tow if needed. Throw in a run up the wall to the ceiling near your allies for even more damage.
Hm... actually, there is one way that Monk in the UA is a ok grappler (well better than anyone else in the UA). That's by using Stunning Strike. Stunned causes auto-fail STR & DEX saves, so you could combo: Stunning Strike + Grappler to attempt to stun & grab an enemy to push them into some spell AoE. That would give you a 30% chance to stun + 40% chance to grapple even if not stunned for a 58% chance to grapple overall without losing DPR, or if you substitute one additional attack with an attempt to grapple a 75% chance to successfully grapple.
This is only a little bit behind the current Mercy Monk + Skill Expert : 65% chance to hit & poison with Hands of Harm followed by 70% chance to grapple plus Advantage which gives you 83.65% chance to Grapple. - in both cases spending only 1 DP and wasting 1 attack on attempting to grapple. [Skill Expert is already a half-feat so doesn't conflict with upper your monk's Dex].
The problem with the tactic of pulling an enemy into spell AoE via grappling is that typically also puts you into the spell AoE. Unlike pushing an enemy, which every other martial can now do much more easily than the Open Hand Monk.
Tactics that rely heavily on percentage odds multiple times are hardly worth it against abilities that work every time you land a hit.
(Also, another class that can prone + push on the same attack: Barbarians with Brutal Strike.)
Did we read the same PDF?
Level 3 feature isn't a nerf. It just works differently to account for new design philosophy for monsters. Lots of evidence suggests that monster Reactions are a big way that WOTC is redesigning future creatures and encounters to be more consistent in the CR calculation. A level 3 subclass feature that turns off Reactions is way too powerful in that context. Addle effectively leaves Monks at the same power level they had previously where Reactions were essentially non-existent except as Opportunity Attacks.
Level 11 Feature, when combined with the Level 10 feature changes to Step of the Wind and the Level 9 Acrobatic Movement feature, is Capstone level overpowered. 1DP to carry a friendly creature over 100ft without provoking opportunity attacks to either of you and you essentially get Flying speed in the process, AND you can make your full attack and FOB at the end? The combat implications of this are staggering. This didn't just clear a low bar, this may be the single most powerful mobility skill in the game that doesn't involve the Wish spell. And I'm all for it. This makes OHM the best support character in the game for getting other Martial classes into combat.
Level 17: Yes, it's true you can no longer theoretically do literally infinite damage to a creature over 2 turns and that's a nerf that is disappointing, but honestly a realistic outcome that most people were anticipating. However, it is ALSO true that you can now do the entire sequence over the course of a single turn (or even set up during a Reaction) during which you can ALSO use your FOB, Dash, and Stunning Strike features. This actually means that on a successful save they still take half the 10d12 damage they did previously - because previously it took 2 turns before that 10d12 could be applied. But on a failed save, they now take DOUBLE that damage because it occurs in only half the time. Which means you can potentially set it up to happen again the next turn for four times the original DPR. If they succeed both times, they still take the full 10d12. It's not infinite damage true, but if this is a nerf at 20d12 QP damage plus the outcome of 10 attacks for only 10DP imagine what you'd need to call an actual damage or reliability buff "balanced."
I want to say that again for the folks in the back: Assuming you use FOB, Deflect Attack and Stunning Strike and everything connects for damage and all saves are failed (except Stunning Strike for more MA dice), Quivering Palm now allows you to do a hypothetical 36d12 + modifiers damage over the course of 2 turns for 12 DP.
If that's what a nerf looks like, bring it on.
If that's what the One D&D Monk looks like, I'll leave it behind.
It kind of sums up everything that there are people who look at the Monk's iconic control feature, the one some folks treated as the only Monk ability worth using...and now want enemies to pass the saving throw, just because that means slightly more DPR. The Monk people want is a class that actually wants to get hit and wants enemies to pass their saving throws, apparently.
Edit: Also, the philosophy behind this is...ridiculous from a standpoint of resource management as the game and especially the Monk is built around. You're actually expending your Discipline Points in an non-optimal way solely to maximize short-term damage. The only way playing like this is viable is if you have two encounters a day that last three rounds each.
And it's clear from the once-a-day Discipline restore that this kind of playstyle is what the One D&D Monk is trying to cater solely to, sadly.
You know you don't have to play the One DND monk right? You clearly believe the 2014 version is 100% fine. Just stick to that?
This shouldn't be a problem; the moveable clause of Grappled lets you "drag or carry" the grappled target, so you should be able to move up against the edge of the effect then place them into it, either by lifting and dropping, or dragging them to the side. As a DM I'd probably require enough spare movement to have moved into the area yourself though, otherwise you'd be allowing "free" movement that could be abused.
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There's really no disputing that the One D&D revisions of classes are better. They have more options, more versatility, new features, improved features. Most One D&D classes are straight upgrades from the original classes.
Rather than giving more options to the One D&D Monk, they've altered features to make them more damage-oriented while taking away numerous control and utility options, with no new utility options like other martials have received.
So your choice when playing alongside other One D&D class is to either play the 5e Monk/subclasses, which lacks any sort of improvements or adjustments like other classes received, or you play the One D&D Monk/subclasses and lose out on control and utility options the Monk already had.
Why does the Shadow Monk have to lose the ability to cast Silence? Why does the Elements Monk need to lose out on their utility options in favour of generic options that are derivative of existing subclasses? Why is Tongue of the Sun and Moon a feature the Monk should lose? Heck, why is Stunning Strike something that's reasonable to limit to one use per turn, but other martials can have the ability to knock enemies prone on every attack they make, without any sort of cost for doing so? Why is other classes getting new features that allow for different control/utility options good, but it's okay if not right for the Monk to have existing features stripped of complexity and options?
It tells the players who took full advantage of what the Monk had to offer that their enjoyment of the class doesn't matter, because other people wanted the class to be something different. And if the tables I played Monk at wanted me to play something different than what I wanted to play, I wouldn't play with those tables, and I probably wouldn't play the game at all if this was a prevalent opinion - or one the designers believe my experience should be dictated by.
To put it bluntly: Why does what you want the Monk to be matter more than what people who enjoy the Monk want it to be?
I'm not advocating it. I'm pointing out the absurdity of calling the Monk "nerfed" compared to the 2014 version. A big problem that myself and others have with the 2014 class and subclasses is that they had very dramatic descriptions of what they do, but mechanically they were doing the same things as other classes, but worse. Rolling the same dice, but with a restriction or prerequisite or cost that other classes didn't have. I didn't mind that there were tradeoffs to being a Monk. I just wanted the Monk to do Monk things as well as Fighters did Fighting things, or Rogues could pickpocket and search for traps, or Wizards could create a solution to a difficult puzzle from thin air and spell slots. But since WOTC didn't seem to have a clear idea about what Monks were supposed to do differently, they just did the same things without the features to really make them stand out. One of those things was how the Monk is constantly dealing with a clock that counts down their effectiveness to zero, because when the 2014 Monk runs out of Ki Points it loses access to most of its unique class and subclass features. It becomes a Fighter but without all of the features that keep Fighters effective when they run out of Action Surges and Second Winds.
I really like the new Monk. Not because it's absurdly broken powerful, but because it now remains a Monk when the class resource is finally depleted. I like that I won't need to Mother-May-I-Take-A-Short-Rest in between every single combat to be relevant. I like that I can use my Discipline Points to lend my unique Monk abilities to my allies, or break the action economy instead of standing still and trading blows until either myself or my target reaches 0 HP. I like that the cool Reaction power I used to have only in specific circumstances if the DM decided to give me a treat with a ranged attack now happens almost every time I'm in combat, so I feel that it's always contributing.
That's the part I like the most, actually. In 2014, Monk features would be very impactful every once in a while, or maybe be a big deal once in a long term high level campaign. In UA8, your Monk features in and out of combat are going to be something you get to make use of almost every session. You are always going to need to move. You are always going to need to manage your Discipline Points. You are always going to need to worry about the next encounter and if its better to take the lead on the offense or to get another character into their most optimal position. But unless your DM has some very radical ideas about how to create a D&D campaign, you are almost never going to worry about growing old. You are never going to have to worry about solving a language barrier so complex it requires a 13th level class feature. You don't have to worry about long-term illness or dying of starvation in most D&D campaigns. Astral projection is an interesting concept for a session, but is it really something that we need to hold off on exploring until 18th level? That's Season 2 material at best. And it's probably not going to come up more than once or twice ever.
By all means, stay with your 2014 Monk and subclasses. Maybe your table is that rare, radical place where all of the ribbon features of the 2014 Monk get maximum usage. But at a lot of tables, this version of the class and subclasses is going to gel a lot better with how the game is actually being played.
The part you are missing is that Grappled characters don't suddenly combine into the same occupied space as the grappler. You can just hold the Grappled target at arm's length in their own space and drag them through a Moonbeam or Spike Growth without ever entering it yourself. And with Monk's ability to move extra far and features that let you move grappled characters without a penalty, that's a lot of movement to make someone enter a spell effect repeatedly.