I'm not advocating it. I'm pointing out the absurdity of calling the Monk "nerfed" compared to the 2014 version. A big problem that myself and others have with the 2014 class and subclasses is that they had very dramatic descriptions of what they do, but mechanically they were doing the same things as other classes, but worse. Rolling the same dice, but with a restriction or prerequisite or cost that other classes didn't have. I didn't mind that there were tradeoffs to being a Monk. I just wanted the Monk to do Monk things as well as Fighters did Fighting things, or Rogues could pickpocket and search for traps, or Wizards could create a solution to a difficult puzzle from thin air and spell slots. But since WOTC didn't seem to have a clear idea about what Monks were supposed to do differently, they just did the same things without the features to really make them stand out. One of those things was how the Monk is constantly dealing with a clock that counts down their effectiveness to zero, because when the 2014 Monk runs out of Ki Points it loses access to most of its unique class and subclass features. It becomes a Fighter but without all of the features that keep Fighters effective when they run out of Action Surges and Second Winds.
I really like the new Monk. Not because it's absurdly broken powerful, but because it now remains a Monk when the class resource is finally depleted. I like that I won't need to Mother-May-I-Take-A-Short-Rest in between every single combat to be relevant. I like that I can use my Discipline Points to lend my unique Monk abilities to my allies, or break the action economy instead of standing still and trading blows until either myself or my target reaches 0 HP. I like that the cool Reaction power I used to have only in specific circumstances if the DM decided to give me a treat with a ranged attack now happens almost every time I'm in combat, so I feel that it's always contributing.
That's the part I like the most, actually. In 2014, Monk features would be very impactful every once in a while, or maybe be a big deal once in a long term high level campaign. In UA8, your Monk features in and out of combat are going to be something you get to make use of almost every session. You are always going to need to move. You are always going to need to manage your Discipline Points. You are always going to need to worry about the next encounter and if its better to take the lead on the offense or to get another character into their most optimal position. But unless your DM has some very radical ideas about how to create a D&D campaign, you are almost never going to worry about growing old. You are never going to have to worry about solving a language barrier so complex it requires a 13th level class feature. You don't have to worry about long-term illness or dying of starvation in most D&D campaigns. Astral projection is an interesting concept for a session, but is it really something that we need to hold off on exploring until 18th level? That's Season 2 material at best. And it's probably not going to come up more than once or twice ever.
By all means, stay with your 2014 Monk and subclasses. Maybe your table is that rare, radical place where all of the ribbon features of the 2014 Monk get maximum usage. But at a lot of tables, this version of the class and subclasses is going to gel a lot better with how the game is actually being played.
Fighters have features with limited resources. Fighters have subclass features with limited resources. They also have class features and subclass features that don't require resources. Monks are exactly the same. Their Martial Arts, Unarmored Movement, defensive features like Deflect Missiles and Evasion all don't require resources. A Monk without their resources can fight on-par with a Fighter without their resources. A Monk has to ration their resource just like all other classes have to conserve their resource throughout an adventure.
What did the Monk even gain to utilize without resources? A Disengage, which they don't really need because you could have used ranged attacks instead of getting in close. A Dash, which is redundant when you can already move further than other classes. The Monk can easily kite most combatants if they want to be a skirmisher. You get two options you'll realistically rarely use, because taking advantage of the Monk's bonus strike (or Ki-Fuelled Attack) is often the best approach. And given the ease of no-selling attacks at Level 3, having that feature in melee is not well-balanced.
It's honestly tiring. People insisting that the Monk can do nothing without ki/Discipline, even when you list out all the features they have that don't require ki/Discipline. People saying they need to use ki/Discipline abilities every turn to be useful, when you can do the math showing how they're on-par damage-wise with other martials. People claiming they're fragile, ignoring the defensive features the class has and how they compare to other classes' defenses. People even acting like ranged attacks are a rarity in combat, like taking a short rest is impossible to fit into the game, or just plain gaslighting that the way every table and group I've played with is abnormal.
If that's the philosophies that One D&D is being made with in mind, then I'll just keep playing 5e. Even if that means I won't be able to play with One D&D players and classes, because I'll be left behind just as much as anyone playing any 5e class will be disadvantaged by not playing a One D&D class instead.
level 6 feature is reworked, similar power level, but used differently instead of one big heal as an action, its smaller heals throught the day as a BA. scales based on wis instead of level. Interestingly, for the new monk, the action has less value than the BA. So its actually less useful in combat than the old would be in dnd.
level 11 feature, its an improvement, but it was pretty bad before.
level 17 is nerf. not surprising because it was a ko move.
overall its probably a nerf. but thats mostly due to quivering.
but the big difference is the level 3 feature and the level 6 feature are worse relative to one dnd. push and topple are available to all, and healing spells improved,
shadow and elements utility, gameplay, and power improved, and other monk subclasses will benefit more from the decoupling of BA from actions.
the OH monk in the onednd world is the new lowbar sub for monk. Well drunken fist is worse, but it hasn't been reworked yet.
Did we read the same PDF?
Level 3 feature isn't a nerf. It just works differently to account for new design philosophy for monsters. Lots of evidence suggests that monster Reactions are a big way that WOTC is redesigning future creatures and encounters to be more consistent in the CR calculation. A level 3 subclass feature that turns off Reactions is way too powerful in that context. Addle effectively leaves Monks at the same power level they had previously where Reactions were essentially non-existent except as Opportunity Attacks.
Level 11 Feature, when combined with the Level 10 feature changes to Step of the Wind and the Level 9 Acrobatic Movement feature, is Capstone level overpowered. 1DP to carry a friendly creature over 100ft without provoking opportunity attacks to either of you and you essentially get Flying speed in the process, AND you can make your full attack and FOB at the end? The combat implications of this are staggering. This didn't just clear a low bar, this may be the single most powerful mobility skill in the game that doesn't involve the Wish spell. And I'm all for it. This makes OHM the best support character in the game for getting other Martial classes into combat.
Level 17: Yes, it's true you can no longer theoretically do literally infinite damage to a creature over 2 turns and that's a nerf that is disappointing, but honestly a realistic outcome that most people were anticipating. However, it is ALSO true that you can now do the entire sequence over the course of a single turn (or even set up during a Reaction) during which you can ALSO use your FOB, Dash, and Stunning Strike features. This actually means that on a successful save they still take half the 10d12 damage they did previously - because previously it took 2 turns before that 10d12 could be applied. But on a failed save, they now take DOUBLE that damage because it occurs in only half the time. Which means you can potentially set it up to happen again the next turn for four times the original DPR. If they succeed both times, they still take the full 10d12. It's not infinite damage true, but if this is a nerf at 20d12 QP damage plus the outcome of 10 attacks for only 10DP imagine what you'd need to call an actual damage or reliability buff "balanced."
I want to say that again for the folks in the back: Assuming you use FOB, Deflect Attack and Stunning Strike and everything connects for damage and all saves are failed (except Stunning Strike for more MA dice), Quivering Palm now allows you to do a hypothetical 36d12 + modifiers damage over the course of 2 turns for 12 DP.
If that's what a nerf looks like, bring it on.
level 3 feature is literally a nerf, I know why they did it, but its still actually a nerf. And reactions where far from non existent. First off, all ready functionality is based off reaction. Many spells are based off reactions. Many gms also create PC based monsters who have pc like skills. And its not just the number of enemies, its the type. Bandit captain for example, I have seen in almost all of my games in that CR range. Regardless I said slight nerf, which is accurate.
level 11 isnt capstone broken, carrying a friendly creature has happened in many games I've played, and usually its just a check with no action cost. its also not whats special about the feature. Its cool, but far from gamebreaking. it literally just allows you to do the same thing you could always do that round, but with more attacks. It doesnt increase your dps, or your mobility, just gives you more mobility while dpsing. Thing is, thats not always useful, you already have a lot of mobility. maps aren't usually infinite, and usually designed where 30ft range is adequate. monk already has like 60ft. To reiterate, its a good feature, but far from gamebreaking.
17, your analysis here is painting a weird picture. Your talking about the theoretical maximum dice pool of the new quivering, using the same type of analysis would make the old quivering be, killed one monster, and had one regular round. the total dp cost would have been. 3+1+1(FOB+stunning strike) across two rounds. Not only that, but we are comparing subclasses, not main classes, so you should only be considering the bonus damage on one round. Basically we would be comparing 2014 OH slapped on onednd monk versus 2024 OH on 2024 monk in order to decide if the subclass was nerfed.
there were already ways to do quivering every turn. (haste, items, potions) but not everybody would have those so we'll go with that.
the absolute maximum quivering palm can increase your damage is +10d12 per round.
however thats on a failed save. on failed save with old quivering, the monster died. on average, assuming 35% failed save rate, you can expect. 7.25d12 per round.
however it replaces an attack, which is basically worth 1.75d12s assuming some missing, lets say its 1.25d12s, for 6d12 boost per round. for 4ki. thats pretty inefficient, 1ki now has a value of 2 attacks, or 2.5d12s or 10d12s (assuming no advantage ignoring crits etc) its basically 60% as efficient as using your Ki normally. That matters because, monk can burn Ki rapidly, if they use your combo, and they run out of ki, they start repaying that nova.
But the big question how does it compare to old quivering. Old quivering killed a dude once every 6 rounds on average. new quivering adds 6 per round, so 36 per 6 rounds, 36x6.5= 234 hp. according to the charts, on average monsters have 310-368 hp in the CR 17-20 range. so new quivering kills .7 monsters in 6 rounds. but it costs 12 ki versus 5ki while doing it.
final answer: its a nerf, understandable nerf in some respects (though... casters in dnd... at this level...)
so as summing up OH monk, nerfed one feature, buffed another feature, two other features similar power level. problem is the main feature of OH, that every player who takes it gets, is now a mostly less useful version of weapon mastery, which every other martial, and some fake martials get. Note, base class monk is not more powerful or versatile than any other martial.
basically OH monk level 3 subclass ability is a weaker version of a lvl one subfeature on any other martial.
You know you don't have to play the One DND monk right? You clearly believe the 2014 version is 100% fine. Just stick to that?
There's really no disputing that the One D&D revisions of classes are better. They have more options, more versatility, new features, improved features. Most One D&D classes are straight upgrades from the original classes.
Rather than giving more options to the One D&D Monk, they've altered features to make them more damage-oriented while taking away numerous control and utility options, with no new utility options like other martials have received.
So your choice when playing alongside other One D&D class is to either play the 5e Monk/subclasses, which lacks any sort of improvements or adjustments like other classes received, or you play the One D&D Monk/subclasses and lose out on control and utility options the Monk already had.
Why does the Shadow Monk have to lose the ability to cast Silence? Why does the Elements Monk need to lose out on their utility options in favour of generic options that are derivative of existing subclasses? Why is Tongue of the Sun and Moon a feature the Monk should lose? Heck, why is Stunning Strike something that's reasonable to limit to one use per turn, but other martials can have the ability to knock enemies prone on every attack they make, without any sort of cost for doing so? Why is other classes getting new features that allow for different control/utility options good, but it's okay if not right for the Monk to have existing features stripped of complexity and options?
It tells the players who took full advantage of what the Monk had to offer that their enjoyment of the class doesn't matter, because other people wanted the class to be something different. And if the tables I played Monk at wanted me to play something different than what I wanted to play, I wouldn't play with those tables, and I probably wouldn't play the game at all if this was a prevalent opinion - or one the designers believe my experience should be dictated by.
To put it bluntly: Why does what you want the Monk to be matter more than what people who enjoy the Monk want it to be?
ultimately its a playtest, and will be determined by the designer's goals and the feedback of players. But I think overall, the onednd monk is better not just in terms of damage, but also in terms of utility and options, than 2014.
the new shadow may lose pass without trace and silence, but it gains, active control of darkness, this has many new interesting interactions and gameplay.
The old lvl 11 feature is not really giving much more functionality than hide. And the new 17 allows you to pass through objects, (and the old lvl 11 function) which is a new functionality with many use cases. I don't think you can say shadow is objectively less versatile. It lost things, but gained things.
baseline monk gained versatility with BA being uncoupled from attack, a lot of versatility, they can now use non attack action options and still attack. dodge, disengage, hide, help, study, etc. This is a pretty big deal in terms of versatility an options.
elements has a lot less obvious options, but a lot of interesting interactions that aren't explicitly laid out, they can shape elements into objects, as a cantrip, walls, weapons, gaps, animals. they can fly, and push and pull objects from 15 feet away. That adds a lot of versatility. Its just not told to you line by line.
now I agree, they didnt need to remove flavor and ribbon abilities, I guess they just don't like a lot of features popping up. I see no reason for it, but its not like they gained nothing, or only combat related stuff.
I have a problem with OH monk, but overall the class is way more solid, with new interesting use cases.
Anytime there is change, some things are lost, whether its acceptable or not came down to the players (for shadow and elements they had 70%+ approval). And once again will come down to the players for monk main class and open hand. Its fine to disagree, share your opinion, or try to convince others, but its not wrong to try to improve the class, and act on that feedback if its overwhelmingly approved by testers.
its fair not to like the results, or walk away from the class, but I think if 70% are satisfied it would be unfair not to make those changes.
I'm not advocating it. I'm pointing out the absurdity of calling the Monk "nerfed" compared to the 2014 version. A big problem that myself and others have with the 2014 class and subclasses is that they had very dramatic descriptions of what they do, but mechanically they were doing the same things as other classes, but worse. Rolling the same dice, but with a restriction or prerequisite or cost that other classes didn't have. I didn't mind that there were tradeoffs to being a Monk. I just wanted the Monk to do Monk things as well as Fighters did Fighting things, or Rogues could pickpocket and search for traps, or Wizards could create a solution to a difficult puzzle from thin air and spell slots. But since WOTC didn't seem to have a clear idea about what Monks were supposed to do differently, they just did the same things without the features to really make them stand out. One of those things was how the Monk is constantly dealing with a clock that counts down their effectiveness to zero, because when the 2014 Monk runs out of Ki Points it loses access to most of its unique class and subclass features. It becomes a Fighter but without all of the features that keep Fighters effective when they run out of Action Surges and Second Winds.
I really like the new Monk. Not because it's absurdly broken powerful, but because it now remains a Monk when the class resource is finally depleted. I like that I won't need to Mother-May-I-Take-A-Short-Rest in between every single combat to be relevant. I like that I can use my Discipline Points to lend my unique Monk abilities to my allies, or break the action economy instead of standing still and trading blows until either myself or my target reaches 0 HP. I like that the cool Reaction power I used to have only in specific circumstances if the DM decided to give me a treat with a ranged attack now happens almost every time I'm in combat, so I feel that it's always contributing.
That's the part I like the most, actually. In 2014, Monk features would be very impactful every once in a while, or maybe be a big deal once in a long term high level campaign. In UA8, your Monk features in and out of combat are going to be something you get to make use of almost every session. You are always going to need to move. You are always going to need to manage your Discipline Points. You are always going to need to worry about the next encounter and if its better to take the lead on the offense or to get another character into their most optimal position. But unless your DM has some very radical ideas about how to create a D&D campaign, you are almost never going to worry about growing old. You are never going to have to worry about solving a language barrier so complex it requires a 13th level class feature. You don't have to worry about long-term illness or dying of starvation in most D&D campaigns. Astral projection is an interesting concept for a session, but is it really something that we need to hold off on exploring until 18th level? That's Season 2 material at best. And it's probably not going to come up more than once or twice ever.
By all means, stay with your 2014 Monk and subclasses. Maybe your table is that rare, radical place where all of the ribbon features of the 2014 Monk get maximum usage. But at a lot of tables, this version of the class and subclasses is going to gel a lot better with how the game is actually being played.
Fighters have features with limited resources. Fighters have subclass features with limited resources. They also have class features and subclass features that don't require resources. Monks are exactly the same. Their Martial Arts, Unarmored Movement, defensive features like Deflect Missiles and Evasion all don't require resources. A Monk without their resources can fight on-par with a Fighter without their resources. A Monk has to ration their resource just like all other classes have to conserve their resource throughout an adventure.
What did the Monk even gain to utilize without resources? A Disengage, which they don't really need because you could have used ranged attacks instead of getting in close. A Dash, which is redundant when you can already move further than other classes. The Monk can easily kite most combatants if they want to be a skirmisher. You get two options you'll realistically rarely use, because taking advantage of the Monk's bonus strike (or Ki-Fuelled Attack) is often the best approach. And given the ease of no-selling attacks at Level 3, having that feature in melee is not well-balanced.
It's honestly tiring. People insisting that the Monk can do nothing without ki/Discipline, even when you list out all the features they have that don't require ki/Discipline. People saying they need to use ki/Discipline abilities every turn to be useful, when you can do the math showing how they're on-par damage-wise with other martials. People claiming they're fragile, ignoring the defensive features the class has and how they compare to other classes' defenses. People even acting like ranged attacks are a rarity in combat, like taking a short rest is impossible to fit into the game, or just plain gaslighting that the way every table and group I've played with is abnormal.
If that's the philosophies that One D&D is being made with in mind, then I'll just keep playing 5e. Even if that means I won't be able to play with One D&D players and classes, because I'll be left behind just as much as anyone playing any 5e class will be disadvantaged by not playing a One D&D class instead.
A Fighter without any remaining class or subclassresources has up to 3 attacks per action with any light or heavy weapon they choose, no competition for any features they can use with their Bonus Action, easily gets 20+ AC with heavy armor and a shield, 2 more Feats/ASIs than the Monk gets ever, a Fighting Style to permanently improve their offense or defense starting at level 1, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, shields and armor which means they ALSO have proficiency with all magic weapons, magic shields and magic armor or clothing in the game. They are also Single Attribute Dependent, so after you cover your Strength or Dexterity requirements for damage dealing in combat you are free to invest the remaining points in any stats appropriate for your character be it for optimized combat or roleplay purposes. That's the 2014 Fighter. The UA7 Fighter also gets additional Weapon Mastery options on whatever weapons they are carrying, built-in True Strike that activates whenever they miss an attack on a creature that they attack again before the end of their next turn, and a 4th attack each time they take the attack action at level 20.
And then they get their subclass features. Which in addition to even more free options, ALSO often draw from their own unique pool of subclass exclusive resources.
Here's the list of actual class features the 2014 core Monk class gets that don't use Ki:
Martial arts - Unarmed Strikes, simple melee weapons and shortswords are finesse weapons for you even if they don't have the Finesse property. You may replace the damage roll of a Monk Weapon or your Unarmed Strike with a d4, a d6 at level 5, a d8 at level 11 or a d10 at level 17.
If you use the attack action with a Monk Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you may also use your bonus action to make one attack with your Unarmed Strike.
Unarmored Defense - If you optimize your Dex and Wis stats from the start, you have an AC of 16 and your AC maxes out at 20 at level 16.
Unarmored Movement - +10-30ft of movement if you aren't wearing armor or carrying a shield. You get Spider-Climb and Water Walking at 9th level but only while in motion during your own turn.
Deflect Missiles - Once per turn as a reaction you can reduce the damage you take if attacked with a ranged physical weapon.
Slow Fall - You can reduce 20-100 points of falling damage as a reaction based on your Monk level.
Ki-Empowered Strikes: Your Unarmed Strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances
Evasion: When you make a Dexterity Saving Throw against an ability that would do half damage to you on a success, you become Immune to that damage if you succeed and Resist that damage if you fail.
Stillness of Mind - You can end an effect that is giving you the Charmed or Frightened condition, but only if that affect does not force you to use your action for something else.
Purity of Body - You are immune to poison.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon - You have the Comprehend Languages spell active at all times but only for spoken languages. You can also communicate back to any question that speaks a language.
Diamond Soul - you have proficiency in all saving throws
Timeless Body - your character gets an epilogue, and can be reused in future campaigns.
Perfect Self - gain 4 Ki points when you roll initiative.
Stunning strike really did not need the damage on a failure. The effect of a success is debilitating enough (a monster losing a whole turn or burning a legendary resistance can decide fights) that it is pretty much always worth the relatively low cost of 1 Ki.
One of Monk’s biggest problems as a class has been the lack of great options to burn Ki on, other than Stunning Strike. The reduction to once per turn and increased Ki generation certainly helped opened up other uses for the resource—but turning it from a “low cost, slight risk, high reward” ability into a “low cost, no risk, potential huge payoff” ability undermines the efforts to keep Monk from being overly focused on a singular ability.
Attack action once (1d8+dex) + FOB (1d6+dex, 1d6+dex)
If deflect attack works your over all damage is higher than using FOB. If there is a reasonable chance you can reduce damage to zero then that might be the better option. There is a chance deflect attack does zero damage but you could also miss with FOB.
The way i read deflect attack i dont think you can use stunning strike with it.
The problem with the tactic of pulling an enemy into spell AoE via grappling is that typically also puts you into the spell AoE. Unlike pushing an enemy, which every other martial can now do much more easily than the Open Hand Monk.
Tactics that rely heavily on percentage odds multiple times are hardly worth it against abilities that work every time you land a hit.
(Also, another class that can prone + push on the same attack: Barbarians with Brutal Strike.)
Skill issue - Monks, especially OH monks, have more than enough speed to position dragged enemies such that the enemy is subject to a hazardous zone and the monk is not. And if that's somehow not possible for a given battlefield (e.g. a narrow corridor or bridge) - just stick to raw damage, it's not hard.
The monk can do this as early as level 4 (Technically 3, but Grappler lets you do this without a speed penalty or sacrificing a hit - again, this feat isn't necessary, it just makes a grappler/dragger better), while the BS Barbarian needs to wait for level 9. That sounds like an advantage to me.
Enemy: Chimera (CR6, HP: 114, AC: 14, +7 to hit, save DC 15)
6th level Dwarf Battlemaster Fighter Stats: 17+2(PAM + Sentinel),10,16,11,12,8 AC: 19, HP: 76 + 3*Second Wind (34.5) Weapon Masteries: Trident (Topple), Glaive (Graze), Maul (Topple), Javelin (Slow) - Topple DC = 15 Feats: Tough, FS: Defense, PAM, Sentinel Maneuvers: Riposte, Trip Attack, Precise Attack [Note I'm not sure Riposte is the best choice for this build, since we have PAM and Sentinel to weaponize our reaction already, Menacing attack might be a better choice]
Damage Taken: Fire Breath - 30% chance to save = 26.35 expected damage Bite/Claw - 45% chance to hit + 5% chance to crit = 5.3 expected damage; Horns - 4.8 expected damage Melee: 15.4 expected damage
Dealing Damage: 70% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit If Airborne: 12.35 + 60% chance to knock prone -> assume if knock prone Action Surge using Glaive = 25.62 bonus damage If Melee: 22 using Glaive, or 25.62 if attacking with Adv Sentinel + Maul = 35% chance to knock prone & reduce movement to 0 + 7.7 damage -> Precise Attack & Trip Attack greatly increase the chance to hit/knock prone on this Sentinel Attack. Riposte = 10.85 damage + 35% chance to knock prone.
Damage Taken: Fire Breath - 65% chance to save = 24 expected damage Bite/Claw - 60% chance to hit + 5% chance to crit = 6.3 expected damage; Horns - 7 expected damage -> one is cancelled via Deflect Attack Melee: 13.5 expected damage
Dealing Damage: 70% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit If Airborne: Shortbow + Stun= 17.6 damage + 41% chance to stun & cause to fall If Melee: Unarmed (no ki used) = 17.85 Unarmed with Adv = 23.2 Unarmed + FoB with Adv = 31 Unarmed + Stunning Strike = 22 damage with 45% chance to Stun and ~95% chance to grapple Unarmed + FoB = 23.8 damage with 53% chance to knock prone and 50% chance to grapple
Summary:
Monk has significantly less survivability : 1 breath attack + 3 rounds of melee drop them to 0 hp vs Fighter lasts through 2 breath attacks + 4 melee rounds
Monk has better DPR when the enemy is airborne but is less likely to cause it to fall.
If Monk uses all their Ki for FoB when they have Adv then they reach parity in terms of DPR with Fighter using Action Surge when they have Adv, in terms of on-their-turn damage. However, the Fighter has multiple ways to weaponize their Reaction leaving them solidly ahead in terms of DPR.
TL:DR the Monk has lower DPR & survivability compared to the Fighter, and has a lower diversity of viable actions available. However is slightly better at debuffing the enemy by stunning / grappling it prone. Note that Grappler is essentially required for this to be true, otherwise the Fighter is superior at debuffing than the monk.
Agilemind, I don't have the skills or knowledge to comment much on your findings or assumptions, but thank you for doing this work. I would note, though that for your example, if you put the characters one level up to 7th, then the monk gets evasion and would have its survivability increase dramatically versus the fire breath.
Agilemind, I don't have the skills or knowledge to comment much on your findings or assumptions, but thank you for doing this work. I would note, though that for your example, if you put the characters one level up to 7th, then the monk gets evasion and would have its survivability increase dramatically versus the fire breath.
True, but lots of things swing that survivability curve - monsters with one big attack and Dex saves favour monk, monsters with many attacks & Con saves favour fighter. I picked Chimera because it's sort of a balance between them Dex save that favours monk and many little attacks that favour fighter. The survivability gap has definitely narrowed compared to 2014, but I think it is still in the Fighter's favour in general. Though I realize I forgot about OH's Tranquility which would probably put it essentially equal with fighter in terms of survivability though that would put it's DPR further behind - so I guess that means the DPR vs Defense trade-off still exists for Monk.
Though something I didn't really get into is complexity. The Monk is significantly simpler to play than the Fighter, and has far fewer ways to be built "badly", than the Fighter. So I think Monk will become the defacto newbie class.
Enemy: Chimera (CR6, HP: 114, AC: 14, +7 to hit, save DC 15)
6th level Dwarf Battlemaster Fighter Stats: 17+2(PAM + Sentinel),10,16,11,12,8 AC: 19, HP: 76 + 3*Second Wind (34.5) Weapon Masteries: Trident (Topple), Glaive (Graze), Maul (Topple), Javelin (Slow) - Topple DC = 15 Feats: Tough, FS: Defense, PAM, Sentinel Maneuvers: Riposte, Trip Attack, Precise Attack [Note I'm not sure Riposte is the best choice for this build, since we have PAM and Sentinel to weaponize our reaction already, Menacing attack might be a better choice]
Damage Taken: Fire Breath - 30% chance to save = 26.35 expected damage Bite/Claw - 45% chance to hit + 5% chance to crit = 5.3 expected damage; Horns - 4.8 expected damage Melee: 15.4 expected damage
Dealing Damage: 70% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit If Airborne: 12.35 + 60% chance to knock prone -> assume if knock prone Action Surge using Glaive = 25.62 bonus damage If Melee: 22 using Glaive, or 25.62 if attacking with Adv Sentinel + Maul = 35% chance to knock prone & reduce movement to 0 + 7.7 damage -> Precise Attack & Trip Attack greatly increase the chance to hit/knock prone on this Sentinel Attack. Riposte = 10.85 damage + 35% chance to knock prone.
Damage Taken: Fire Breath - 65% chance to save = 24 expected damage Bite/Claw - 60% chance to hit + 5% chance to crit = 6.3 expected damage; Horns - 7 expected damage -> one is cancelled via Deflect Attack Melee: 13.5 expected damage
Dealing Damage: 70% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit If Airborne: Shortbow + Stun= 17.6 damage + 41% chance to stun & cause to fall If Melee: Unarmed (no ki used) = 17.85 Unarmed with Adv = 23.2 Unarmed + FoB with Adv = 31 Unarmed + Stunning Strike = 22 damage with 45% chance to Stun and ~95% chance to grapple Unarmed + FoB = 23.8 damage with 53% chance to knock prone and 50% chance to grapple
Summary:
Monk has significantly less survivability : 1 breath attack + 3 rounds of melee drop them to 0 hp vs Fighter lasts through 2 breath attacks + 4 melee rounds
Monk has better DPR when the enemy is airborne but is less likely to cause it to fall.
If Monk uses all their Ki for FoB when they have Adv then they reach parity in terms of DPR with Fighter using Action Surge when they have Adv, in terms of on-their-turn damage. However, the Fighter has multiple ways to weaponize their Reaction leaving them solidly ahead in terms of DPR.
TL:DR the Monk has lower DPR & survivability compared to the Fighter, and has a lower diversity of viable actions available. However is slightly better at debuffing the enemy by stunning / grappling it prone. Note that Grappler is essentially required for this to be true, otherwise the Fighter is superior at debuffing than the monk.
How much does this change when you hit level 7 and monk gains evasion against that breath weapon?
Also not sure on these health calcs at all.
Fighter starts with 10+con so 13, +1 from dwarf is 14. Then d10 provides 6+con+dwarf=10x5. so 64 for fighter.
For monk with tough feat starts with 8+con+2+1 so 13. +5+con+2+1 each level from d8 and, feats and racial so that is also 10 per level for 63 at 6. The difference in health between these 2 characters is 1. The fighter then has second wind.
Also the monk's AC is 17 (10+4+3) not 16 so they should be taking less melee damage than listed.
Also breath weapon should only do 21 to monk. (31*.35)+(31*.5*.65)=21
Both characters are dwarves and both have Tough. The Fighter has +3 Con, and d10 hit die. the Monk has +2 Con and d8 hit die.
So, Fighter HP gets a +6 to their hit die (+3 CON +2 Tough +1 Dwarf) = 10+6 +5*(6+6) = 76 Monk HP gets a +5 to their hit die (+2 CON +2 Tough +1 Dwarf) = 8+5+5*(5+5) = 63
Essentially, Fighter gets +2 HP / level beyond what Monk gets, plus a pile of extra HP from Second Wind, while also having higher AC.
Meanwhile Monk takes less damage turn-by-turn thanks to Deflect Attack & better Dex saves. So the more rounds of combat the higher the survivability of Monk vs Fighter.
Evasion reduces the Breath attack damage to an average 7 for Monk. But Evasion is a situational benefit, it would certainly help against this enemy but only 1 in 10 or fewer enemies have Dex-save based attacks at this level.
If survivability is what people care about the most then I can pick out a few more classic monsters from each extreme to show the range in survivability - e.g. Drider, Roper, Stone Giant, Young White Dragon, Fire Elemental.
Just to add my calc for the melee attacks from the chimera to the monk.
Chimera is +7 to hit vs a 17 ac so hits on a 10 or better, 55% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit, 2 attacks do 2d6 one does 1d12, for simplicity I am just going to treat them all as 2d6 this will skew the numbers up for the chimera a little bit. One attack deals (7+4*.55)+(7*.05)=6.2*3 attacks for 18.6- 11 damage from deflect attacks negating one attack that HITS (this is the average damage of an attack that hits but does not crit, technically the reduction would be slightly more)= 7.6 damage per round. Given then 21 from breath and 7.6 per round from the attacks it would take 2 breaths and about 3 rounds of attacks.
The fighter at 64 health from the above numbers breath damage is accurate attack damage is also accurate here the fighter and so is the healing 64 health +35 healing= 99 which takes 2 breath weapons and about 3 rounds of attacks.
This makes the monk and fighter equals in the survival arena without using resources. Which is neat.
Damage Taken: Chance to hit = 40% Bite: 11 dmg Longsword: 8 dmg Longbow: 11 dmg
If Drider has Adv, then 21 DPR = 5 rounds of survival Otherwise 13 DPR = 8.5 rounds of survival
6th level Dwarf OH Monk (UA8) Stats: 10,17+1,14,8,16,8 AC: 17, HP: 63 + 22.5 (Wholeness of Body) (Discipline DC = 14) Feats: Tough, Grappler (Grapple DC = 15)
Damage Taken: Chance to hit = 50%
If Drider has Adv, then 25 DPR - 7 from Deflect Attack = 18 = 5 rounds of survival Otherwise 16.5 DPR -7 from Deflect Attack =9.5 = 9 rounds of survival
Another multi-attack creature, only no AoE this time and essentially the same survivability for Fighter & Monk. Though I'd note again that Fighter has just as good or better options for debuffing the Drider -> knocking it off the ceiling using Topple (50% success rate), or using Menacing Attack (60% success rate), as well as Sentinel to keep it in place, vs the Monk with Stunning Strike (45% success rate) and Grappling (55% success rate)
if the fighter's goal is survival, they probably take heavy armor master
--pb per hit.
If their goal was only survival they would be sword & board with heavy armor master, but then their DPR will be significantly lower than the monk unless the monk is using Patient Defense every round. I was going to include DPR estimates in these as well but people seem most interested in survivability. The point of these comparisons isn't to maximize survival it is to consider what the likely survival would be in a standard combat where you are trying to kill the enemy not just be as defensive as possible.
There is also the strategy side of things as well. In this case Sentinel (Fighter) and Grappler (Monk) are ways to incentivize the enemy to attack you, and provide options against flying or highly mobile enemies. These are designed as well-rounded characters not min-maxed ones.
Damage Taken:9 Chance to hit = 45%; Bite: 22 dmg The roper will have Adv on it's attack, so 15.4 DPR = 7 rounds of survival
6th level Dwarf OH Monk (UA8) Stats: 10,17+1,14,8,16,8 AC: 17, HP: 63 + 22.5 (Wholeness of Body) (Discipline DC = 14) Feats: Tough, Grappler (Grapple DC = 15)
Damage Taken: Chance to hit = 55% The roper will have Adv on it's attack, so 80% chance to hit, but expected damage is 22 - (5.5+4+6) = 6.5 This means expected DPR = 5.2 = 13 rounds of survival
Monk is now practically immortal if they are only hit once per round. This is probably a good thing because it means Patient Defense is much more valuable.
if the fighter's goal is survival, they probably take heavy armor master
--pb per hit.
If their goal was only survival they would be sword & board with heavy armor master, but then their DPR will be significantly lower than the monk unless the monk is using Patient Defense every round. I was going to include DPR estimates in these as well but people seem most interested in survivability. The point of these comparisons isn't to maximize survival it is to consider what the likely survival would be in a standard combat where you are trying to kill the enemy not just be as defensive as possible.
There is also the strategy side of things as well. In this case Sentinel (Fighter) and Grappler (Monk) are ways to incentivize the enemy to attack you, and provide options against flying or highly mobile enemies. These are designed as well-rounded characters not min-maxed ones.
The trick is the monk can change that defense/offense level on the fly and the fighter can't. Monk is playing a slight tax for its flexibility. Because the lowest it can drop its dpr would be down to 1 attack as a bonus action than dodge as an action without spending any ki. With ki it can get 2 attacks and a dodge (with FoB riders), or 2 attacks dodge and disengage no FoB riders. A big part of why people aren't interested in damage is because levels 1-9 damage hasn't changed for the monk at all, maybe a little bit more because of stunning strike fail rider but that is it. And I believe in those levels it is understood that while the monk doesn't get as high as the fighter or the barbarian its damage is still in "acceptable range". The issue was 11 and above which now has an extra attack on FoB moving it into a more acceptable range.
The trick is the monk can change that defense/offense level on the fly and the fighter can't. Monk is playing a slight tax for its flexibility. Because the lowest it can drop its dpr would be down to 1 attack as a bonus action than dodge as an action without spending any ki. With ki it can get 2 attacks and a dodge (with FoB riders), or 2 attacks dodge and disengage no FoB riders. A big part of why people aren't interested in damage is because levels 1-9 damage hasn't changed for the monk at all, maybe a little bit more because of stunning strike fail rider but that is it. And I believe in those levels it is understood that while the monk doesn't get as high as the fighter or the barbarian its damage is still in "acceptable range". The issue was 11 and above which now has an extra attack on FoB moving it into a more acceptable range.
5e Monk at Level 1: d8+3 plus d4+3, totalling 8-18 damage 5e Fighter at Level 1, with a d12 weapon: d12+3, totalling 4-15 damage 5e Barbarian at Level 1, with d12 weapon and Rage: d12+3+2, totalling 6-17 damage 5e Rogue at Level 1, with d8 weapon and 1d6 Sneak Attack: d8+d6+3, totalling 5-17 damage
5e Monk at Level 5, without Flurry of Blows: Two d8+4 attacks plus one d6+4 attack, totalling 15-34 damage 5e Fighter at Level 5, with a d12 weapon: Two d12+4 attacks, totalling 10-32 damage 5e Barbarian at Level 5, with d12 weapon and Rage: Two d12+4+2 attacks, totalling 14-36 damage 5e Rogue at Level 5, with d8 weapon and 3d6 Sneak Attack: One d8+4 attack plus 3d6, totalling 8-30 damage
5e Monks at Level 11, without Flurry of Blows: Three d8+5 attacks, totalling 18-39 damage 5e Monks at Level 11, using Flurry of Blows: Four d8+5 attacks, totalling 24-52 damage 5e Fighters at Level 11 with a d12 weapon: Three d12+5 attacks, totalling 18-51 damage 5e Barbarians at Level 11, using a d12 weapon with Rage: Two d12+5+3 attacks, totalling 18-40 damage 5e Rogues at Level 11, with d8 weapon and 6d6 Sneak Attack: d8+5 attack plus 6d6, totalling 12-49 damage
One D&D Monks at Level 11, using Flurry of Blows: Five d10+5 attacks, totalling 30-75 damage One D&D Monks with Nick mastery at Level 11, using Flurry of Blows: Five d10+5 attacks plus one d10 attack, totalling 31-85 damage One D&D Barbarians at Level 11, using Rage and Brutal Strikes: Two d12+5+3 attacks plus 1d10 damage, totalling 19-50 damage
You're correct that damage hasn't changed much at lower levels. What has is access to Weapon Mastery and other features that give other classes control options and greater damage output, while the Monk gets nothing at those lower levels. In fact, while other martials get Weapon Mastery right from Level 1, and half-casters get spellcasting at Level 1 now, Monk gets absolutely nothing new at that level. Meanwhile, Level 10 gives a significant damage boost, which should be noted comes before Level 11 which gives damage improvements for several Monk subclasses like Mercy and Astral Self. Coupled with other features, like Stunning Strike's inexplicable damage chance, can boost that per-turn damage higher.
The irony is that by giving other classes control features that enable them cost-free access to forced movement and conditions that are tied to Monks' Discipline abilities, One D&D has actually made Discipline Points much more limiting for the Monk, because it now has to constantly expend Discipline Points for what other classes can now do every turn for free. The Monk can't push enemies without Discipline Points. The Monk can't poison enemies without Discipline Points. The Monk can't knock enemies prone without Discipline Points. Other classes can, wiping the Monk's specialty away from them and even stripping utility options from subclasses in favor of simply pushing nova damage higher.
It's bizarre. You had people claiming that Monks were consistently sub-par in damage output regardless of tier, yet by doing very little to lower-tier damage potential, this is treated as fixed. You had people claiming that Monks had no resources, yet one single daily Discipline restore is treated as a solution while the Monk becomes more dependent on their resource to keep up with other classes' new free features. The only playstyle the changes benefit is that where players can expect only two encounters a day, without short rests, allowing the One D&D Monk to burn through Discipline as fast as possible to do high amounts of damage while knowing that they'll have everything back for the second encounter and won't need to spare anything following that. Not only is Uncanny Metabolism a poor fit for standard adventuring days where short rests are to be expected, longer adventuring days also allow other classes to use their free features more often without consuming resources while the Monk gains little of use without consuming the resource they need to ration.
The trick is the monk can change that defense/offense level on the fly and the fighter can't. Monk is playing a slight tax for its flexibility. Because the lowest it can drop its dpr would be down to 1 attack as a bonus action than dodge as an action without spending any ki. With ki it can get 2 attacks and a dodge (with FoB riders), or 2 attacks dodge and disengage no FoB riders. A big part of why people aren't interested in damage is because levels 1-9 damage hasn't changed for the monk at all, maybe a little bit more because of stunning strike fail rider but that is it. And I believe in those levels it is understood that while the monk doesn't get as high as the fighter or the barbarian its damage is still in "acceptable range". The issue was 11 and above which now has an extra attack on FoB moving it into a more acceptable range.
5e Monk at Level 1: d8+3 plus d4+3, totalling 8-18 damage 5e Fighter at Level 1, with a d12 weapon: d12+3, totalling 4-15 damage 5e Barbarian at Level 1, with d12 weapon and Rage: d12+3+2, totalling 6-17 damage 5e Rogue at Level 1, with d8 weapon and 1d6 Sneak Attack: d8+d6+3, totalling 5-17 damage
5e Monk at Level 5, without Flurry of Blows: Two d8+4 attacks plus one d6+4 attack, totalling 15-34 damage 5e Fighter at Level 5, with a d12 weapon: Two d12+4 attacks, totalling 10-32 damage 5e Barbarian at Level 5, with d12 weapon and Rage: Two d12+4+2 attacks, totalling 14-36 damage 5e Rogue at Level 5, with d8 weapon and 3d6 Sneak Attack: One d8+4 attack plus 3d6, totalling 8-30 damage
5e Monks at Level 11, without Flurry of Blows: Three d8+5 attacks, totalling 18-39 damage 5e Monks at Level 11, using Flurry of Blows: Four d8+5 attacks, totalling 24-52 damage 5e Fighters at Level 11 with a d12 weapon: Three d12+5 attacks, totalling 18-51 damage 5e Barbarians at Level 11, using a d12 weapon with Rage: Two d12+5+3 attacks, totalling 18-40 damage 5e Rogues at Level 11, with d8 weapon and 6d6 Sneak Attack: d8+5 attack plus 6d6, totalling 12-49 damage
One D&D Monks at Level 11, using Flurry of Blows: Five d10+5 attacks, totalling 30-75 damage One D&D Monks with Nick mastery at Level 11, using Flurry of Blows: Five d10+5 attacks plus one d10 attack, totalling 31-85 damage One D&D Barbarians at Level 11, using Rage and Brutal Strikes: Two d12+5+3 attacks plus 1d10 damage, totalling 19-50 damage
You're correct that damage hasn't changed much at lower levels. What has is access to Weapon Mastery and other features that give other classes control options and greater damage output, while the Monk gets nothing at those lower levels. In fact, while other martials get Weapon Mastery right from Level 1, and half-casters get spellcasting at Level 1 now, Monk gets absolutely nothing new at that level. Meanwhile, Level 10 gives a significant damage boost, which should be noted comes before Level 11 which gives damage improvements for several Monk subclasses like Mercy and Astral Self. Coupled with other features, like Stunning Strike's inexplicable damage chance, can boost that per-turn damage higher.
The irony is that by giving other classes control features that enable them cost-free access to forced movement and conditions that are tied to Monks' Discipline abilities, One D&D has actually made Discipline Points much more limiting for the Monk, because it now has to constantly expend Discipline Points for what other classes can now do every turn for free. The Monk can't push enemies without Discipline Points. The Monk can't poison enemies without Discipline Points. The Monk can't knock enemies prone without Discipline Points. Other classes can, wiping the Monk's specialty away from them and even stripping utility options from subclasses in favor of simply pushing nova damage higher.
It's bizarre. You had people claiming that Monks were consistently sub-par in damage output regardless of tier, yet by doing very little to lower-tier damage potential, this is treated as fixed. You had people claiming that Monks had no resources, yet one single daily Discipline restore is treated as a solution while the Monk becomes more dependent on their resource to keep up with other classes' new free features. The only playstyle the changes benefit is that where players can expect only two encounters a day, without short rests, allowing the One D&D Monk to burn through Discipline as fast as possible to do high amounts of damage while knowing that they'll have everything back for the second encounter and won't need to spare anything following that. Not only is Uncanny Metabolism a poor fit for standard adventuring days where short rests are to be expected, longer adventuring days also allow other classes to use their free features more often without consuming resources while the Monk gains little of use without consuming the resource they need to ration.
There is one other change for monk and that is they are slightly better at shove and grapple. This, to me, seems like the "mastery" for unarmed strikes. The problem is how the dc is calculated. It worked much better in the first iteration when it was on hit.
I do believe monks need something more than damage and defense, because I believe these levels are acceptable and their flexibility is greater so I am ok with some taxes. Highs that aren't quite as high. I want the monk who focuses on offense to beat the fighter that focuses on defense on offense without being so compromised on defense to be horrible and vice versa and I do believe this monk achieves that.
The next steps I think are needed is the removal of the tavern brawler and grappler "feat tax" let the monk specifically try to unarmed strike do damage and still try to grapple or shove without a feat would solve the master issue and add to monk flexibility in combat.
Bring back tongue of sun and moon and make it lower level and add wisdom to charisma diplomacy and intimidation checks and you creat something for them out of combat as well.
Edit: for some some tables this change has effectively doubled the number of resources a monk has, others it has increased by a minimum of 2 with most "suggested fixes" not giving more than 5 extra ki anyway. Add in more things that dont cost ki (disengage and dash + subclass features) and the ki issue just feels less. Also add in stunning strike getting ANYTHING on a fail makes it feel less bad as well. It is increments here and there and there and there..... that are just adding up.
Fighters have features with limited resources. Fighters have subclass features with limited resources. They also have class features and subclass features that don't require resources. Monks are exactly the same. Their Martial Arts, Unarmored Movement, defensive features like Deflect Missiles and Evasion all don't require resources. A Monk without their resources can fight on-par with a Fighter without their resources. A Monk has to ration their resource just like all other classes have to conserve their resource throughout an adventure.
What did the Monk even gain to utilize without resources? A Disengage, which they don't really need because you could have used ranged attacks instead of getting in close. A Dash, which is redundant when you can already move further than other classes. The Monk can easily kite most combatants if they want to be a skirmisher. You get two options you'll realistically rarely use, because taking advantage of the Monk's bonus strike (or Ki-Fuelled Attack) is often the best approach. And given the ease of no-selling attacks at Level 3, having that feature in melee is not well-balanced.
It's honestly tiring. People insisting that the Monk can do nothing without ki/Discipline, even when you list out all the features they have that don't require ki/Discipline. People saying they need to use ki/Discipline abilities every turn to be useful, when you can do the math showing how they're on-par damage-wise with other martials. People claiming they're fragile, ignoring the defensive features the class has and how they compare to other classes' defenses. People even acting like ranged attacks are a rarity in combat, like taking a short rest is impossible to fit into the game, or just plain gaslighting that the way every table and group I've played with is abnormal.
If that's the philosophies that One D&D is being made with in mind, then I'll just keep playing 5e. Even if that means I won't be able to play with One D&D players and classes, because I'll be left behind just as much as anyone playing any 5e class will be disadvantaged by not playing a One D&D class instead.
level 3 feature is literally a nerf, I know why they did it, but its still actually a nerf. And reactions where far from non existent. First off, all ready functionality is based off reaction. Many spells are based off reactions. Many gms also create PC based monsters who have pc like skills. And its not just the number of enemies, its the type. Bandit captain for example, I have seen in almost all of my games in that CR range. Regardless I said slight nerf, which is accurate.
level 11 isnt capstone broken, carrying a friendly creature has happened in many games I've played, and usually its just a check with no action cost. its also not whats special about the feature. Its cool, but far from gamebreaking. it literally just allows you to do the same thing you could always do that round, but with more attacks. It doesnt increase your dps, or your mobility, just gives you more mobility while dpsing. Thing is, thats not always useful, you already have a lot of mobility. maps aren't usually infinite, and usually designed where 30ft range is adequate. monk already has like 60ft. To reiterate, its a good feature, but far from gamebreaking.
17, your analysis here is painting a weird picture. Your talking about the theoretical maximum dice pool of the new quivering, using the same type of analysis would make the old quivering be, killed one monster, and had one regular round. the total dp cost would have been. 3+1+1(FOB+stunning strike) across two rounds. Not only that, but we are comparing subclasses, not main classes, so you should only be considering the bonus damage on one round. Basically we would be comparing 2014 OH slapped on onednd monk versus 2024 OH on 2024 monk in order to decide if the subclass was nerfed.
there were already ways to do quivering every turn. (haste, items, potions) but not everybody would have those so we'll go with that.
the absolute maximum quivering palm can increase your damage is +10d12 per round.
however thats on a failed save. on failed save with old quivering, the monster died. on average, assuming 35% failed save rate, you can expect. 7.25d12 per round.
however it replaces an attack, which is basically worth 1.75d12s assuming some missing, lets say its 1.25d12s, for 6d12 boost per round. for 4ki. thats pretty inefficient, 1ki now has a value of 2 attacks, or 2.5d12s or 10d12s (assuming no advantage ignoring crits etc) its basically 60% as efficient as using your Ki normally. That matters because, monk can burn Ki rapidly, if they use your combo, and they run out of ki, they start repaying that nova.
But the big question how does it compare to old quivering. Old quivering killed a dude once every 6 rounds on average. new quivering adds 6 per round, so 36 per 6 rounds, 36x6.5= 234 hp. according to the charts, on average monsters have 310-368 hp in the CR 17-20 range. so new quivering kills .7 monsters in 6 rounds. but it costs 12 ki versus 5ki while doing it.
final answer: its a nerf, understandable nerf in some respects (though... casters in dnd... at this level...)
so as summing up OH monk, nerfed one feature, buffed another feature, two other features similar power level. problem is the main feature of OH, that every player who takes it gets, is now a mostly less useful version of weapon mastery, which every other martial, and some fake martials get. Note, base class monk is not more powerful or versatile than any other martial.
basically OH monk level 3 subclass ability is a weaker version of a lvl one subfeature on any other martial.
the subclass isn't there yet, needs work.
ultimately its a playtest, and will be determined by the designer's goals and the feedback of players. But I think overall, the onednd monk is better not just in terms of damage, but also in terms of utility and options, than 2014.
the new shadow may lose pass without trace and silence, but it gains, active control of darkness, this has many new interesting interactions and gameplay.
The old lvl 11 feature is not really giving much more functionality than hide. And the new 17 allows you to pass through objects, (and the old lvl 11 function) which is a new functionality with many use cases. I don't think you can say shadow is objectively less versatile. It lost things, but gained things.
baseline monk gained versatility with BA being uncoupled from attack, a lot of versatility, they can now use non attack action options and still attack. dodge, disengage, hide, help, study, etc. This is a pretty big deal in terms of versatility an options.
elements has a lot less obvious options, but a lot of interesting interactions that aren't explicitly laid out, they can shape elements into objects, as a cantrip, walls, weapons, gaps, animals. they can fly, and push and pull objects from 15 feet away. That adds a lot of versatility. Its just not told to you line by line.
now I agree, they didnt need to remove flavor and ribbon abilities, I guess they just don't like a lot of features popping up. I see no reason for it, but its not like they gained nothing, or only combat related stuff.
I have a problem with OH monk, but overall the class is way more solid, with new interesting use cases.
Anytime there is change, some things are lost, whether its acceptable or not came down to the players (for shadow and elements they had 70%+ approval). And once again will come down to the players for monk main class and open hand. Its fine to disagree, share your opinion, or try to convince others, but its not wrong to try to improve the class, and act on that feedback if its overwhelmingly approved by testers.
its fair not to like the results, or walk away from the class, but I think if 70% are satisfied it would be unfair not to make those changes.
A Fighter without any remaining class or subclass resources has up to 3 attacks per action with any light or heavy weapon they choose, no competition for any features they can use with their Bonus Action, easily gets 20+ AC with heavy armor and a shield, 2 more Feats/ASIs than the Monk gets ever, a Fighting Style to permanently improve their offense or defense starting at level 1, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, shields and armor which means they ALSO have proficiency with all magic weapons, magic shields and magic armor or clothing in the game. They are also Single Attribute Dependent, so after you cover your Strength or Dexterity requirements for damage dealing in combat you are free to invest the remaining points in any stats appropriate for your character be it for optimized combat or roleplay purposes. That's the 2014 Fighter. The UA7 Fighter also gets additional Weapon Mastery options on whatever weapons they are carrying, built-in True Strike that activates whenever they miss an attack on a creature that they attack again before the end of their next turn, and a 4th attack each time they take the attack action at level 20.
And then they get their subclass features. Which in addition to even more free options, ALSO often draw from their own unique pool of subclass exclusive resources.
Here's the list of actual class features the 2014 core Monk class gets that don't use Ki:
Martial arts - Unarmed Strikes, simple melee weapons and shortswords are finesse weapons for you even if they don't have the Finesse property. You may replace the damage roll of a Monk Weapon or your Unarmed Strike with a d4, a d6 at level 5, a d8 at level 11 or a d10 at level 17.
If you use the attack action with a Monk Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you may also use your bonus action to make one attack with your Unarmed Strike.
Unarmored Defense - If you optimize your Dex and Wis stats from the start, you have an AC of 16 and your AC maxes out at 20 at level 16.
Unarmored Movement - +10-30ft of movement if you aren't wearing armor or carrying a shield. You get Spider-Climb and Water Walking at 9th level but only while in motion during your own turn.
Deflect Missiles - Once per turn as a reaction you can reduce the damage you take if attacked with a ranged physical weapon.
Slow Fall - You can reduce 20-100 points of falling damage as a reaction based on your Monk level.
Ki-Empowered Strikes: Your Unarmed Strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances
Evasion: When you make a Dexterity Saving Throw against an ability that would do half damage to you on a success, you become Immune to that damage if you succeed and Resist that damage if you fail.
Stillness of Mind - You can end an effect that is giving you the Charmed or Frightened condition, but only if that affect does not force you to use your action for something else.
Purity of Body - You are immune to poison.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon - You have the Comprehend Languages spell active at all times but only for spoken languages. You can also communicate back to any question that speaks a language.
Diamond Soul - you have proficiency in all saving throws
Timeless Body - your character gets an epilogue, and can be reused in future campaigns.
Perfect Self - gain 4 Ki points when you roll initiative.
Stunning strike really did not need the damage on a failure. The effect of a success is debilitating enough (a monster losing a whole turn or burning a legendary resistance can decide fights) that it is pretty much always worth the relatively low cost of 1 Ki.
One of Monk’s biggest problems as a class has been the lack of great options to burn Ki on, other than Stunning Strike. The reduction to once per turn and increased Ki generation certainly helped opened up other uses for the resource—but turning it from a “low cost, slight risk, high reward” ability into a “low cost, no risk, potential huge payoff” ability undermines the efforts to keep Monk from being overly focused on a singular ability.
Is deflect attack better than flurry of blows at lower levels?
At levels 1-4 and spend only 1ki per round you can:
Attack action once (1d8+dex) + bonus action unarmed strike (1d6+dex) + deflect attack (2d6 + dex)
Or
Attack action once (1d8+dex) + FOB (1d6+dex, 1d6+dex)
If deflect attack works your over all damage is higher than using FOB. If there is a reasonable chance you can reduce damage to zero then that might be the better option. There is a chance deflect attack does zero damage but you could also miss with FOB.
The way i read deflect attack i dont think you can use stunning strike with it.
Skill issue - Monks, especially OH monks, have more than enough speed to position dragged enemies such that the enemy is subject to a hazardous zone and the monk is not. And if that's somehow not possible for a given battlefield (e.g. a narrow corridor or bridge) - just stick to raw damage, it's not hard.
The monk can do this as early as level 4 (Technically 3, but Grappler lets you do this without a speed penalty or sacrificing a hit - again, this feat isn't necessary, it just makes a grappler/dragger better), while the BS Barbarian needs to wait for level 9. That sounds like an advantage to me.
The deflect isn't using your unarmed strike or a monk weapon so it doesn't qualify. (You can try to stun with a regular OA or a readied punch though.)
For a realistic example,
Enemy: Chimera (CR6, HP: 114, AC: 14, +7 to hit, save DC 15)
6th level Dwarf Battlemaster Fighter
Stats: 17+2(PAM + Sentinel),10,16,11,12,8 AC: 19, HP: 76 + 3*Second Wind (34.5)
Weapon Masteries: Trident (Topple), Glaive (Graze), Maul (Topple), Javelin (Slow) - Topple DC = 15
Feats: Tough, FS: Defense, PAM, Sentinel
Maneuvers: Riposte, Trip Attack, Precise Attack [Note I'm not sure Riposte is the best choice for this build, since we have PAM and Sentinel to weaponize our reaction already, Menacing attack might be a better choice]
Damage Taken:
Fire Breath - 30% chance to save = 26.35 expected damage
Bite/Claw - 45% chance to hit + 5% chance to crit = 5.3 expected damage; Horns - 4.8 expected damage
Melee: 15.4 expected damage
Dealing Damage: 70% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit
If Airborne: 12.35 + 60% chance to knock prone -> assume if knock prone Action Surge using Glaive = 25.62 bonus damage
If Melee: 22 using Glaive, or 25.62 if attacking with Adv
Sentinel + Maul = 35% chance to knock prone & reduce movement to 0 + 7.7 damage -> Precise Attack & Trip Attack greatly increase the chance to hit/knock prone on this Sentinel Attack.
Riposte = 10.85 damage + 35% chance to knock prone.
6th level Dwarf OH Monk (UA8)
Stats: 10,17+1,14,8,16,8 AC: 16, HP: 58 (Discipline DC = 14)
Feats: Tough, Grappler (Grapple DC = 15)
Damage Taken:
Fire Breath - 65% chance to save = 24 expected damage
Bite/Claw - 60% chance to hit + 5% chance to crit = 6.3 expected damage; Horns - 7 expected damage -> one is cancelled via Deflect Attack
Melee: 13.5 expected damage
Dealing Damage: 70% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit
If Airborne: Shortbow + Stun= 17.6 damage + 41% chance to stun & cause to fall
If Melee:
Unarmed (no ki used) = 17.85
Unarmed with Adv = 23.2
Unarmed + FoB with Adv = 31
Unarmed + Stunning Strike = 22 damage with 45% chance to Stun and ~95% chance to grapple
Unarmed + FoB = 23.8 damage with 53% chance to knock prone and 50% chance to grapple
Summary:
Monk has significantly less survivability : 1 breath attack + 3 rounds of melee drop them to 0 hp vs Fighter lasts through 2 breath attacks + 4 melee rounds
Monk has better DPR when the enemy is airborne but is less likely to cause it to fall.
If Monk uses all their Ki for FoB when they have Adv then they reach parity in terms of DPR with Fighter using Action Surge when they have Adv, in terms of on-their-turn damage. However, the Fighter has multiple ways to weaponize their Reaction leaving them solidly ahead in terms of DPR.
TL:DR the Monk has lower DPR & survivability compared to the Fighter, and has a lower diversity of viable actions available. However is slightly better at debuffing the enemy by stunning / grappling it prone. Note that Grappler is essentially required for this to be true, otherwise the Fighter is superior at debuffing than the monk.
Agilemind, I don't have the skills or knowledge to comment much on your findings or assumptions, but thank you for doing this work. I would note, though that for your example, if you put the characters one level up to 7th, then the monk gets evasion and would have its survivability increase dramatically versus the fire breath.
True, but lots of things swing that survivability curve - monsters with one big attack and Dex saves favour monk, monsters with many attacks & Con saves favour fighter. I picked Chimera because it's sort of a balance between them Dex save that favours monk and many little attacks that favour fighter. The survivability gap has definitely narrowed compared to 2014, but I think it is still in the Fighter's favour in general. Though I realize I forgot about OH's Tranquility which would probably put it essentially equal with fighter in terms of survivability though that would put it's DPR further behind - so I guess that means the DPR vs Defense trade-off still exists for Monk.
Though something I didn't really get into is complexity. The Monk is significantly simpler to play than the Fighter, and has far fewer ways to be built "badly", than the Fighter. So I think Monk will become the defacto newbie class.
How much does this change when you hit level 7 and monk gains evasion against that breath weapon?
Also not sure on these health calcs at all.
Fighter starts with 10+con so 13, +1 from dwarf is 14. Then d10 provides 6+con+dwarf=10x5. so 64 for fighter.
For monk with tough feat starts with 8+con+2+1 so 13. +5+con+2+1 each level from d8 and, feats and racial so that is also 10 per level for 63 at 6. The difference in health between these 2 characters is 1. The fighter then has second wind.
Also the monk's AC is 17 (10+4+3) not 16 so they should be taking less melee damage than listed.
Also breath weapon should only do 21 to monk. (31*.35)+(31*.5*.65)=21
Both characters are dwarves and both have Tough. The Fighter has +3 Con, and d10 hit die. the Monk has +2 Con and d8 hit die.
So,
Fighter HP gets a +6 to their hit die (+3 CON +2 Tough +1 Dwarf) = 10+6 +5*(6+6) = 76
Monk HP gets a +5 to their hit die (+2 CON +2 Tough +1 Dwarf) = 8+5+5*(5+5) = 63
Essentially, Fighter gets +2 HP / level beyond what Monk gets, plus a pile of extra HP from Second Wind, while also having higher AC.
Meanwhile Monk takes less damage turn-by-turn thanks to Deflect Attack & better Dex saves. So the more rounds of combat the higher the survivability of Monk vs Fighter.
Evasion reduces the Breath attack damage to an average 7 for Monk. But Evasion is a situational benefit, it would certainly help against this enemy but only 1 in 10 or fewer enemies have Dex-save based attacks at this level.
If survivability is what people care about the most then I can pick out a few more classic monsters from each extreme to show the range in survivability - e.g. Drider, Roper, Stone Giant, Young White Dragon, Fire Elemental.
Just to add my calc for the melee attacks from the chimera to the monk.
Chimera is +7 to hit vs a 17 ac so hits on a 10 or better, 55% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit, 2 attacks do 2d6 one does 1d12, for simplicity I am just going to treat them all as 2d6 this will skew the numbers up for the chimera a little bit. One attack deals (7+4*.55)+(7*.05)=6.2*3 attacks for 18.6- 11 damage from deflect attacks negating one attack that HITS (this is the average damage of an attack that hits but does not crit, technically the reduction would be slightly more)= 7.6 damage per round. Given then 21 from breath and 7.6 per round from the attacks it would take 2 breaths and about 3 rounds of attacks.
The fighter at 64 health from the above numbers breath damage is accurate attack damage is also accurate here the fighter and so is the healing 64 health +35 healing= 99 which takes 2 breath weapons and about 3 rounds of attacks.
This makes the monk and fighter equals in the survival arena without using resources. Which is neat.
Monk vs Fighter faces a Drider
6th level Dwarf Battlemaster Fighter
Stats: 17+2(PAM + Sentinel),10,16,11,12,8 AC: 19, HP: 76 + 3*Second Wind (34.5)
Weapon Masteries: Trident (Topple), Glaive (Graze), Maul (Topple), Javelin (Slow) - Topple DC = 15
Feats: Tough, FS: Defense, PAM, Sentinel
Maneuvers: Menacing Attack, Trip Attack, Precise Attack
Damage Taken:
Chance to hit = 40%
Bite: 11 dmg
Longsword: 8 dmg
Longbow: 11 dmg
If Drider has Adv, then 21 DPR = 5 rounds of survival
Otherwise 13 DPR = 8.5 rounds of survival
6th level Dwarf OH Monk (UA8)
Stats: 10,17+1,14,8,16,8 AC: 17, HP: 63 + 22.5 (Wholeness of Body) (Discipline DC = 14)
Feats: Tough, Grappler (Grapple DC = 15)
Damage Taken:
Chance to hit = 50%
If Drider has Adv, then 25 DPR - 7 from Deflect Attack = 18 = 5 rounds of survival
Otherwise 16.5 DPR -7 from Deflect Attack =9.5 = 9 rounds of survival
Another multi-attack creature, only no AoE this time and essentially the same survivability for Fighter & Monk. Though I'd note again that Fighter has just as good or better options for debuffing the Drider -> knocking it off the ceiling using Topple (50% success rate), or using Menacing Attack (60% success rate), as well as Sentinel to keep it in place, vs the Monk with Stunning Strike (45% success rate) and Grappling (55% success rate)
if the fighter's goal is survival, they probably take heavy armor master
--pb per hit.
If their goal was only survival they would be sword & board with heavy armor master, but then their DPR will be significantly lower than the monk unless the monk is using Patient Defense every round. I was going to include DPR estimates in these as well but people seem most interested in survivability. The point of these comparisons isn't to maximize survival it is to consider what the likely survival would be in a standard combat where you are trying to kill the enemy not just be as defensive as possible.
There is also the strategy side of things as well. In this case Sentinel (Fighter) and Grappler (Monk) are ways to incentivize the enemy to attack you, and provide options against flying or highly mobile enemies. These are designed as well-rounded characters not min-maxed ones.
Monk vs Fighter faces a Roper
6th level Dwarf Battlemaster Fighter
Stats: 17+2(PAM + Sentinel),10,16,11,12,8 AC: 19, HP: 76 + 3*Second Wind (34.5)
Weapon Masteries: Trident (Topple), Glaive (Graze), Maul (Topple), Javelin (Slow) - Topple DC = 15
Feats: Tough, FS: Defense, PAM, Sentinel
Maneuvers: Menacing Attack, Trip Attack, Precise Attack
Damage Taken:9
Chance to hit = 45%; Bite: 22 dmg
The roper will have Adv on it's attack, so 15.4 DPR = 7 rounds of survival
6th level Dwarf OH Monk (UA8)
Stats: 10,17+1,14,8,16,8 AC: 17, HP: 63 + 22.5 (Wholeness of Body) (Discipline DC = 14)
Feats: Tough, Grappler (Grapple DC = 15)
Damage Taken:
Chance to hit = 55%
The roper will have Adv on it's attack, so 80% chance to hit, but expected damage is 22 - (5.5+4+6) = 6.5
This means expected DPR = 5.2 = 13 rounds of survival
Monk is now practically immortal if they are only hit once per round. This is probably a good thing because it means Patient Defense is much more valuable.
The trick is the monk can change that defense/offense level on the fly and the fighter can't. Monk is playing a slight tax for its flexibility. Because the lowest it can drop its dpr would be down to 1 attack as a bonus action than dodge as an action without spending any ki. With ki it can get 2 attacks and a dodge (with FoB riders), or 2 attacks dodge and disengage no FoB riders. A big part of why people aren't interested in damage is because levels 1-9 damage hasn't changed for the monk at all, maybe a little bit more because of stunning strike fail rider but that is it. And I believe in those levels it is understood that while the monk doesn't get as high as the fighter or the barbarian its damage is still in "acceptable range". The issue was 11 and above which now has an extra attack on FoB moving it into a more acceptable range.
5e Monk at Level 1: d8+3 plus d4+3, totalling 8-18 damage
5e Fighter at Level 1, with a d12 weapon: d12+3, totalling 4-15 damage
5e Barbarian at Level 1, with d12 weapon and Rage: d12+3+2, totalling 6-17 damage
5e Rogue at Level 1, with d8 weapon and 1d6 Sneak Attack: d8+d6+3, totalling 5-17 damage
5e Monk at Level 5, without Flurry of Blows: Two d8+4 attacks plus one d6+4 attack, totalling 15-34 damage
5e Fighter at Level 5, with a d12 weapon: Two d12+4 attacks, totalling 10-32 damage
5e Barbarian at Level 5, with d12 weapon and Rage: Two d12+4+2 attacks, totalling 14-36 damage
5e Rogue at Level 5, with d8 weapon and 3d6 Sneak Attack: One d8+4 attack plus 3d6, totalling 8-30 damage
5e Monks at Level 11, without Flurry of Blows: Three d8+5 attacks, totalling 18-39 damage
5e Monks at Level 11, using Flurry of Blows: Four d8+5 attacks, totalling 24-52 damage
5e Fighters at Level 11 with a d12 weapon: Three d12+5 attacks, totalling 18-51 damage
5e Barbarians at Level 11, using a d12 weapon with Rage: Two d12+5+3 attacks, totalling 18-40 damage
5e Rogues at Level 11, with d8 weapon and 6d6 Sneak Attack: d8+5 attack plus 6d6, totalling 12-49 damage
One D&D Monks at Level 11, using Flurry of Blows: Five d10+5 attacks, totalling 30-75 damage
One D&D Monks with Nick mastery at Level 11, using Flurry of Blows: Five d10+5 attacks plus one d10 attack, totalling 31-85 damage
One D&D Barbarians at Level 11, using Rage and Brutal Strikes: Two d12+5+3 attacks plus 1d10 damage, totalling 19-50 damage
You're correct that damage hasn't changed much at lower levels. What has is access to Weapon Mastery and other features that give other classes control options and greater damage output, while the Monk gets nothing at those lower levels. In fact, while other martials get Weapon Mastery right from Level 1, and half-casters get spellcasting at Level 1 now, Monk gets absolutely nothing new at that level. Meanwhile, Level 10 gives a significant damage boost, which should be noted comes before Level 11 which gives damage improvements for several Monk subclasses like Mercy and Astral Self. Coupled with other features, like Stunning Strike's inexplicable damage chance, can boost that per-turn damage higher.
The irony is that by giving other classes control features that enable them cost-free access to forced movement and conditions that are tied to Monks' Discipline abilities, One D&D has actually made Discipline Points much more limiting for the Monk, because it now has to constantly expend Discipline Points for what other classes can now do every turn for free. The Monk can't push enemies without Discipline Points. The Monk can't poison enemies without Discipline Points. The Monk can't knock enemies prone without Discipline Points. Other classes can, wiping the Monk's specialty away from them and even stripping utility options from subclasses in favor of simply pushing nova damage higher.
It's bizarre. You had people claiming that Monks were consistently sub-par in damage output regardless of tier, yet by doing very little to lower-tier damage potential, this is treated as fixed. You had people claiming that Monks had no resources, yet one single daily Discipline restore is treated as a solution while the Monk becomes more dependent on their resource to keep up with other classes' new free features. The only playstyle the changes benefit is that where players can expect only two encounters a day, without short rests, allowing the One D&D Monk to burn through Discipline as fast as possible to do high amounts of damage while knowing that they'll have everything back for the second encounter and won't need to spare anything following that. Not only is Uncanny Metabolism a poor fit for standard adventuring days where short rests are to be expected, longer adventuring days also allow other classes to use their free features more often without consuming resources while the Monk gains little of use without consuming the resource they need to ration.
There is one other change for monk and that is they are slightly better at shove and grapple. This, to me, seems like the "mastery" for unarmed strikes. The problem is how the dc is calculated. It worked much better in the first iteration when it was on hit.
I do believe monks need something more than damage and defense, because I believe these levels are acceptable and their flexibility is greater so I am ok with some taxes. Highs that aren't quite as high. I want the monk who focuses on offense to beat the fighter that focuses on defense on offense without being so compromised on defense to be horrible and vice versa and I do believe this monk achieves that.
The next steps I think are needed is the removal of the tavern brawler and grappler "feat tax" let the monk specifically try to unarmed strike do damage and still try to grapple or shove without a feat would solve the master issue and add to monk flexibility in combat.
Bring back tongue of sun and moon and make it lower level and add wisdom to charisma diplomacy and intimidation checks and you creat something for them out of combat as well.
Edit: for some some tables this change has effectively doubled the number of resources a monk has, others it has increased by a minimum of 2 with most "suggested fixes" not giving more than 5 extra ki anyway. Add in more things that dont cost ki (disengage and dash + subclass features) and the ki issue just feels less. Also add in stunning strike getting ANYTHING on a fail makes it feel less bad as well. It is increments here and there and there and there..... that are just adding up.