One area of criticism I have for Open Hand is the Wholeness of Body ability, even reduced to a bonus action it doesn't feel worthwhile to use (especially given how much more valuable the Monk's bonus action just became, between the buffs to Monk's Discipline and Heightened Discipline.) I was trying to think of ways to make the ability feel more impactful; one that I thought of was letting it autoheal you the first time you drop to 0 on a given day, or be usable while unconscious/dying. Both would be fluffed as the Open Hand Monk gaining mastery over their own autonomic processes.
Another option was to let them use WhoB to heal other people, but I'm not a fan of this one because it feels too similar to Mercy Monk that will be in the same book. Any suggestions I'm forgetting?
What if it were usable at the same time as Patient Defence? Make it more of a defensive feature since you'd be able to combine healing with either Disengaging or (hopefully) taking less damage (if you spend the Discipline point as well)?
That would definitely be helpful. The current numbers on this just don’t seem good for combat; early on they don’t seem worth 1-3 attacks, and by the time your health is low you’re mitigating a single attack on average and would arguably be better served trying to quickly wrap up the fight.
Maybe we can start a separate thread to talk about the 1DnD Stealth rules? I'd like to get back to the Monk.
One area of criticism I have for Open Hand is the Wholeness of Body ability, even reduced to a bonus action it doesn't feel worthwhile to use (especially given how much more valuable the Monk's bonus action just became, between the buffs to Monk's Discipline and Heightened Discipline.) I was trying to think of ways to make the ability feel more impactful; one that I thought of was letting it autoheal you the first time you drop to 0 on a given day, or be usable while unconscious/dying. Both would be fluffed as the Open Hand Monk gaining mastery over their own autonomic processes.
Another option was to let them use WhoB to heal other people, but I'm not a fan of this one because it feels too similar to Mercy Monk that will be in the same book. Any suggestions I'm forgetting?
At 11th level wholeness of body can combine bonus actions with sotw but that is very niche. Wholeness of body looks really bad next to mercy monks hands of healing. I cant believe they would even consider putting that in the same phb as mercy monk. Yikes. The new healing spells in the UA all got a bump because healing in 5e is fairly weak until high levels but they forgot to bump wholeness of body along with that. It's scaling is terrible and its value is deflated even more as all monks get uncanny metabolism at 2nd level and improved patient defense at 10th. I would have preferred the 2014 wholeness of body as a free bonus action 1x per day with the option to spend ki points to use it again. Paladin got lay on hands as a bonus action so I dont see why they could not have done that with the old wholeness of body.
I suppose one critique of using Wholeness of Body as an auto-revive is you’re then stepping on the toes of Barbarians and I think the new Orcs. Personally I think for its action economy here you either use it alongside regular attacks to maintain staying power, or if you got swamped in the last turn you Disengage as an Action and use your +15 or more to speed to get out of reach before healing. Really, given the variable and ultimately low amount of per-round healing, it’s probably better to just use it in place of a single Bonus Action attack when your health is just low enough that you won’t have overflow or cash it in en mass between encounters. Comparing the two, I think I might actually prefer the original; it took an Action but was a better emergency button mid-combat.
I don't think the autorecovery would step on Orc's toes at all - in fact, if it stacks (i.e. multiple recoveries per long rest) that would be amazing. Orc OH Monks would be almost as impossible to take down as Orc Barbarians, which fits perfectly with their species fantasy of being incredibly resilient survivors.
At 11th level wholeness of body can combine bonus actions with sotw but that is very niche. Wholeness of body looks really bad next to mercy monks hands of healing. I cant believe they would even consider putting that in the same phb as mercy monk. Yikes. The new healing spells in the UA all got a bump because healing in 5e is fairly weak until high levels but they forgot to bump wholeness of body along with that. It's scaling is terrible and its value is deflated even more as all monks get uncanny metabolism at 2nd level and improved patient defense at 10th. I would have preferred the 2014 wholeness of body be free as a bonus action 1x per day with the option to spend ki points to use it again. Paladin got lay on hands as a bonus action so I dont see why they could not have done that with the old wholeness of body.
I honestly agree - if they keep it as an on-use healing ability it needs to be a lot stronger. Upcast Cure Wounds almost competes with Heal in pure output now, but it's still considerably weaker overall, so the buff there was well-designed.
One area of criticism I have for Open Hand is the Wholeness of Body ability, even reduced to a bonus action it doesn't feel worthwhile to use (especially given how much more valuable the Monk's bonus action just became, between the buffs to Monk's Discipline and Heightened Discipline.) I was trying to think of ways to make the ability feel more impactful; one that I thought of was letting it autoheal you the first time you drop to 0 on a given day, or be usable while unconscious/dying. Both would be fluffed as the Open Hand Monk gaining mastery over their own autonomic processes.
Another option was to let them use WhoB to heal other people, but I'm not a fan of this one because it feels too similar to Mercy Monk that will be in the same book. Any suggestions I'm forgetting?
What if OH at 6th level gets the ability to Deflect Attack twice per round? The damage prevention would be similar to the healing over the course of the day. A second Reaction for Deflect Attack would work against multi-attack and multiple monsters. And it would not interfere with Monk's packed action economy. And it would be friendly for new players, where I assume Open Hand Monk would be included in the basic rules.
What if OH at 6th level gets the ability to Deflect Attack twice per round? The damage prevention would be similar to the healing over the course of the day. A second Reaction for Deflect Attack would work against multi-attack and multiple monsters. And it would not interfere with Monk's packed action economy. And it would be friendly for new players, where I assume Open Hand Monk would be included in the basic rules.
I dunno... two Deflect reactions would be a pretty outsize power boost, especially at level 6 where few enemies have more than two attacks in the first place.
And as the comments rightly note, the first guy wasn't even going all out. He goes for Nick Mastery at 4, but starts with 16 Dex instead of 17 (so he hits 18 at 8th instead of 4th), and he also doesn't factor in any DPR gains from Topple, which has a much higher success chance against most enemies than Stunning Strike. So even these good numbers are understated, and the levels he is citing as being closest to the competition (5,6,7) are the ones that would benefit most from this added optimization.
Can the new monk make any single handed or versatile weapon a monk weapon? The new two weapon fighting feat let's give your offhand weapon the light property even if it does not have it. Monk weapons include any martial weapon with the light property. So a two weapon fighting monk with that feat can treat a longsword as a monk weapon. It's a very specific scenario but two weapon fighting monks with a 1 level dip in fighter are looking pretty good. It also opens up possibilities for more magic weapons but only for that build.
Can the new monk make any single handed or versatile weapon a monk weapon? The new two weapon fighting feat let's give your offhand weapon the light property even if it does not have it. Monk weapons include any martial weapon with the light property. So a two weapon fighting monk with that feat can treat a longsword as a monk weapon. It's a very specific scenario but two weapon fighting monks with a 1 level dip in fighter are looking pretty good. It also opens up possibilities for more magic weapons but only for that build.
they don't have proficiency, though, and its a bit of DM ruling, many might say monk weapon is like proficiency, and based on the natural state of the weapon.
it also won't matter at level 5, as they get D8s. they couldn't use it as a d10, as that would remove the light property.
Can the new monk make any single handed or versatile weapon a monk weapon? The new two weapon fighting feat let's give your offhand weapon the light property even if it does not have it. Monk weapons include any martial weapon with the light property. So a two weapon fighting monk with that feat can treat a longsword as a monk weapon. It's a very specific scenario but two weapon fighting monks with a 1 level dip in fighter are looking pretty good. It also opens up possibilities for more magic weapons but only for that build.
they don't have proficiency, though, and its a bit of DM ruling, many might say monk weapon is like proficiency, and based on the natural state of the weapon.
it also won't matter at level 5, as they get D8s. they couldn't use it as a d10, as that would remove the light property.
I'd be inclined to rule against it personally (in RAW at least), as the Dual Wielder feat only says you "treat [the weapon] as if it had the Light property", so it's a weapon that only temporarily counts as Light due to the feat, rather than being a weapon that actually has the Light property IMO. Put another way, it's not a weapon with the Light property, it's a weapon you can use as if it had it.
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Alternative mechanics for Wholeness of Body could include:
1) When you use your Uncanny Metabolism, you multiply the amount of hit points restored by 3.
2) Adv on Con saves against poison & resistance to poison damage (since this has been removed from the base monk)
3) Add your Wisdom modifier to Constitution saving throws.
4) Adv on saves to avoid falling prone & immunity to forced movement [Pretty useful now that everyone and their grandmother will be ping-ponging people around].
5) Use DP to regain hit dice & when you use Patient defense can spend hit dice up to your proficiency bonus.
Can the new monk make any single handed or versatile weapon a monk weapon? The new two weapon fighting feat let's give your offhand weapon the light property even if it does not have it. Monk weapons include any martial weapon with the light property. So a two weapon fighting monk with that feat can treat a longsword as a monk weapon. It's a very specific scenario but two weapon fighting monks with a 1 level dip in fighter are looking pretty good. It also opens up possibilities for more magic weapons but only for that build.
they don't have proficiency, though, and its a bit of DM ruling, many might say monk weapon is like proficiency, and based on the natural state of the weapon.
it also won't matter at level 5, as they get D8s. they couldn't use it as a d10, as that would remove the light property.
No the monk is not proficient but that is easy enough to get though.
Can the new monk make any single handed or versatile weapon a monk weapon? The new two weapon fighting feat let's give your offhand weapon the light property even if it does not have it. Monk weapons include any martial weapon with the light property. So a two weapon fighting monk with that feat can treat a longsword as a monk weapon. It's a very specific scenario but two weapon fighting monks with a 1 level dip in fighter are looking pretty good. It also opens up possibilities for more magic weapons but only for that build.
they don't have proficiency, though, and its a bit of DM ruling, many might say monk weapon is like proficiency, and based on the natural state of the weapon.
it also won't matter at level 5, as they get D8s. they couldn't use it as a d10, as that would remove the light property.
I'd be inclined to rule against it personally, as the Dual Wielder feat only says you "treat [the weapon] as if it had the Light property", so it's a weapon that only temporarily counts as Light due to the feat, rather than being a weapon that actually has the Light property IMO. Put another way, it's not a weapon with the Light property, it's a weapon you can use as if it had it.
I see your point. The language used in the feat could be interpreted that way.
The end result of the phrase "treat the weapon as if it had the light property" is to allow certain mechanics to occur that are dependant on the light property that would otherwise not be possible. I assume that would apply to any and all mechanics that are dependant on the light property, including monk weapons. But each dm rules as they see fit.
I see your point. The language used in the feat could be interpreted that way.
The end result of the phrase "treat the weapon as if it had the light property" is to allow certain mechanics to occur that are dependant on the light property that would otherwise not be possible. I assume that would apply to any and all mechanics that are dependant on the light property, including monk weapons. But each dm rules as they see fit.
Oh it could absolutely go either way, I also should have been clearer in my post that I mean I would tend to rule against it in a Rules As Written debate; actually at the table I let players away with all kinds of stuff, and it would absolutely depend on what weapons they're trying to wield, why, and how cool or silly it would be to allow it versus the tone of the campaign. A campaign I'm currently running has a Monk with a glaive and that's not caused any problems (they have to close anyway to do unarmed strikes).
It's also definitely not worded in a very clear way, but then it's also a UA feat that hasn't been previewed since so we have no idea what the final wording is (did they decide it was perfect first time, or were any changes needed so minor they decided against re-releasing it?).
I would say though that the intention seems more like you're treating the weapon as light purely so you can dual wield it, since that's the purpose of the feat after all (and what the 5e version does, albeit with two non-light weapons which is what they're trying to change).
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Dedicated Weapon is still a thing, right? The class options from Tasha aren't ruled out as long as they haven't been contradicted or already imported into the new classes, as far as I recall.
Feat: Weapon Master (for the proficiency in a given versatile weapon) (or, a 1 level dip into any class with Martial Weapons proficiency ... or wait for the Warrior of Weapons subclass and just do that at 3rd level) Dedicated Weapon: Make it a Monk weapon.
My question would be about the word "and" in the third requirement for Dedicated Weapon. Rules of logic would imply that there is no weapon that is ruled out by that bullet item (there is no weapon that has both Heavy AND Special properties). Which means they probably intended to use the word "OR", but they didn't.
I'd like Acrobatic Movement (water and wall running) to be available earlier so that Monk will have out of combat identity. I was pondering ways for it to appear sooner without pushing out all the goodies Monk has received at early levels.
What if Acrobatic Movement was unlocked at an early level (2, 3, or 4) but required a minimum movement distance? Such as needing 100 feet of total movement (base movement + dashes) for wall and water running to work. Or requiring 80 ft of movement in a straight line before being able to wall/water run. This would let a low level monk use Acrobatic Movement by double dashing, while level 10 monks would only need a single dash.
Downsides: I'd be concerned how this would benefit races with a speed bonus (Wood Elf, Tabaxi). Or speed boosting Feats and Magic Items. And make Haste an extra desirable spell for Monks.
That would definitely be helpful. The current numbers on this just don’t seem good for combat; early on they don’t seem worth 1-3 attacks, and by the time your health is low you’re mitigating a single attack on average and would arguably be better served trying to quickly wrap up the fight.
At 11th level wholeness of body can combine bonus actions with sotw but that is very niche. Wholeness of body looks really bad next to mercy monks hands of healing. I cant believe they would even consider putting that in the same phb as mercy monk. Yikes. The new healing spells in the UA all got a bump because healing in 5e is fairly weak until high levels but they forgot to bump wholeness of body along with that. It's scaling is terrible and its value is deflated even more as all monks get uncanny metabolism at 2nd level and improved patient defense at 10th. I would have preferred the 2014 wholeness of body as a free bonus action 1x per day with the option to spend ki points to use it again. Paladin got lay on hands as a bonus action so I dont see why they could not have done that with the old wholeness of body.
I don't think the autorecovery would step on Orc's toes at all - in fact, if it stacks (i.e. multiple recoveries per long rest) that would be amazing. Orc OH Monks would be almost as impossible to take down as Orc Barbarians, which fits perfectly with their species fantasy of being incredibly resilient survivors.
I honestly agree - if they keep it as an on-use healing ability it needs to be a lot stronger. Upcast Cure Wounds almost competes with Heal in pure output now, but it's still considerably weaker overall, so the buff there was well-designed.
What if OH at 6th level gets the ability to Deflect Attack twice per round? The damage prevention would be similar to the healing over the course of the day. A second Reaction for Deflect Attack would work against multi-attack and multiple monsters. And it would not interfere with Monk's packed action economy. And it would be friendly for new players, where I assume Open Hand Monk would be included in the basic rules.
I dunno... two Deflect reactions would be a pretty outsize power boost, especially at level 6 where few enemies have more than two attacks in the first place.
wholeness of body improvement, stay mostly as is, but +1ki per use, changes to +2ki at 15. or, maybe just starts and stays at +2.
Found some monk playtest 8 damage calculations for those still in doubt about the improvements:
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/commentS/185xhrq/playtest_8_monk_damage/
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https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/186rp95/optimizing_onedd_a_semithorough_analysis_of_all/
And as the comments rightly note, the first guy wasn't even going all out. He goes for Nick Mastery at 4, but starts with 16 Dex instead of 17 (so he hits 18 at 8th instead of 4th), and he also doesn't factor in any DPR gains from Topple, which has a much higher success chance against most enemies than Stunning Strike. So even these good numbers are understated, and the levels he is citing as being closest to the competition (5,6,7) are the ones that would benefit most from this added optimization.
Can the new monk make any single handed or versatile weapon a monk weapon? The new two weapon fighting feat let's give your offhand weapon the light property even if it does not have it. Monk weapons include any martial weapon with the light property. So a two weapon fighting monk with that feat can treat a longsword as a monk weapon. It's a very specific scenario but two weapon fighting monks with a 1 level dip in fighter are looking pretty good. It also opens up possibilities for more magic weapons but only for that build.
they don't have proficiency, though, and its a bit of DM ruling, many might say monk weapon is like proficiency, and based on the natural state of the weapon.
it also won't matter at level 5, as they get D8s. they couldn't use it as a d10, as that would remove the light property.
I'd be inclined to rule against it personally (in RAW at least), as the Dual Wielder feat only says you "treat [the weapon] as if it had the Light property", so it's a weapon that only temporarily counts as Light due to the feat, rather than being a weapon that actually has the Light property IMO. Put another way, it's not a weapon with the Light property, it's a weapon you can use as if it had it.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Alternative mechanics for Wholeness of Body could include:
1) When you use your Uncanny Metabolism, you multiply the amount of hit points restored by 3.
2) Adv on Con saves against poison & resistance to poison damage (since this has been removed from the base monk)
3) Add your Wisdom modifier to Constitution saving throws.
4) Adv on saves to avoid falling prone & immunity to forced movement [Pretty useful now that everyone and their grandmother will be ping-ponging people around].
5) Use DP to regain hit dice & when you use Patient defense can spend hit dice up to your proficiency bonus.
No the monk is not proficient but that is easy enough to get though.
I see your point. The language used in the feat could be interpreted that way.
The end result of the phrase "treat the weapon as if it had the light property" is to allow certain mechanics to occur that are dependant on the light property that would otherwise not be possible. I assume that would apply to any and all mechanics that are dependant on the light property, including monk weapons. But each dm rules as they see fit.
Oh it could absolutely go either way, I also should have been clearer in my post that I mean I would tend to rule against it in a Rules As Written debate; actually at the table I let players away with all kinds of stuff, and it would absolutely depend on what weapons they're trying to wield, why, and how cool or silly it would be to allow it versus the tone of the campaign. A campaign I'm currently running has a Monk with a glaive and that's not caused any problems (they have to close anyway to do unarmed strikes).
It's also definitely not worded in a very clear way, but then it's also a UA feat that hasn't been previewed since so we have no idea what the final wording is (did they decide it was perfect first time, or were any changes needed so minor they decided against re-releasing it?).
I would say though that the intention seems more like you're treating the weapon as light purely so you can dual wield it, since that's the purpose of the feat after all (and what the 5e version does, albeit with two non-light weapons which is what they're trying to change).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Dedicated Weapon is still a thing, right? The class options from Tasha aren't ruled out as long as they haven't been contradicted or already imported into the new classes, as far as I recall.
Feat: Weapon Master (for the proficiency in a given versatile weapon) (or, a 1 level dip into any class with Martial Weapons proficiency ... or wait for the Warrior of Weapons subclass and just do that at 3rd level)
Dedicated Weapon: Make it a Monk weapon.
My question would be about the word "and" in the third requirement for Dedicated Weapon. Rules of logic would imply that there is no weapon that is ruled out by that bullet item (there is no weapon that has both Heavy AND Special properties). Which means they probably intended to use the word "OR", but they didn't.
I'd like Acrobatic Movement (water and wall running) to be available earlier so that Monk will have out of combat identity. I was pondering ways for it to appear sooner without pushing out all the goodies Monk has received at early levels.
What if Acrobatic Movement was unlocked at an early level (2, 3, or 4) but required a minimum movement distance? Such as needing 100 feet of total movement (base movement + dashes) for wall and water running to work. Or requiring 80 ft of movement in a straight line before being able to wall/water run. This would let a low level monk use Acrobatic Movement by double dashing, while level 10 monks would only need a single dash.
Downsides: I'd be concerned how this would benefit races with a speed bonus (Wood Elf, Tabaxi). Or speed boosting Feats and Magic Items. And make Haste an extra desirable spell for Monks.
It would make sense to put acrobatic movement as a part of step of the wind.
Except, no. If you can cast Haste, you can probably cast Fly - why run up a wall when you can just fly up it instead?
Because the monk can double its already prodigious movement speed, improve its AC by +2, and take an additional (albeit limited) action.
Fly is good, but it's far more limited in scope. There are good reasons why they're both 3rd-level spells.