So, what does everyone think of the new Barbarian (specifically) it’s Brutal Critical?
We know Barbs get weapon mastery now, right? So with the brutal critical and its upgrade, can we use the mastery in addition with the brutal critical? It just says forgo advantage from that attack to do one of these effects, but it’s still an attack. What happens if the Barb is using let’s say a war hammer with the push mastery and you want to use the forceful blow brutal, so they go back 25 feet? This isn’t even including world tree, which I think also has a push effect. The big question here is do they stack? If they do that puts the base barbarian up there with the battle master fighter, which is pretty crazy since you can basically mix and match masteries with each other or stack them. But as mentioned that’s just the base barb. I guess the same can be said for the rouge too with its cunning strike. This could be really wild. Thoughts?
If you already have advantage then Brutal Strike is powerful, if you do not then it's a bit more questionable. Advantage is roughly equivalent to a +5 on an attack roll, is trading that for a 1d10 good? For reasons below*, Personally I'd like to have seen the 2d10 come in with the level 13 feature and then the level 17 be 3d10. While I think Barbarian should have less DPR than a fighter or paladin, it still needs to be higher than what is in the UA I feel.
For level 9, obviously Forceful Blow has some amazing utility, you can use it to shove creatures far back, such as over a cliff or into the AoE of an allies spell. I'd say the feature does not stack with Push since I see nothing in the wording of either to suggest that they could. Push and Hamstring as a combo already has some major kiting potential in it anyway.
For level 13, Staggering Blow is great for pairing with a spellcaster or monk, Sundering Blow is okay too but I think Staggering Blow is better since most DC save effects are usually more impactful than a +3/+4 to an attack roll.
For level 17, being able to use two effects together really adds a lot, the 2d10 here I feel is a little low on the DPR side, it should have been 3d10 by this point I feel.
* I also dislike the wording of the feature. It says if you use Reckless Attack, you can forgo advantage on the next attack roll. It's notable that Reckless Attack is used on the first attack roll of a round, going by this, the way I read it is that you can only use Brutal Strike on the second attack of any given round that you use Reckless Attack. This makes it slightly tricker to use with Great Weapon Master or Polearm master, where you might have a 3rd attack. once per round is fine but it should have been able to replace the advantage effect of any attack roll for a strength based attack, not specifically the 2nd attack of the round. It also means it doesn't work well with say the help action or anything that only benefits the "next attack" since you can't use it with your 1st attack. You can get around this by attacking another creature first, so long as one is available, so it's not impossible to benefit from but a notable downside, more so if there are no other creatures you can target.
With regards to Brutal Strike specifically, I just don't see the need for it to be tied to giving up advantage on Reckless Attack; it makes this feature overly complicated and weirdly implies that a Barbarian can only fight strategically while being reckless? It's your entire 9th-level feature so I think it's fine for it just to be something you can do once per turn; if it needs some extra cost then make it a Rage-only ability to emphasise that it's more about brute force rather than skilful precision.
Also Sundering Blow just seems bad; overly complicated for an extra 3-4 damage. Given its description and name I was expecting advantage on the next ally's attack (like a free Help action), similar to guiding bolt.
I know it's not new to this UA, but while Indomitable Might applying to Strength saving throws is better than the 5e version, and Strength can go even higher now at 20th-level, it still feels weak for an 18th-level feature. I know it basically means that you'll pretty much never fail Athletics checks or Strength saves, but are these common enough for that to really matter? Now that grappling no longer uses an opposed check the value of Athletics has decreased, and even before that happened on the checks side this feature is still way worse than a Rogue's 11th-level Reliable Talent (which applies to a whole bunch of skills you'll be using all the time). I know Strength saving throws are somewhat common (not as much as Dexterity and Wisdom, but not as rare as Intelligence or Charisma) but they're really only used for one or two effects anyway so it feels like Barbarian might as well just get always-on freedom of movement or something to actually make this an "unstoppable force" feature.
(turns out I've misread/forgotten some important bits, so the spoilered section can be ignored!)
Overall I think Barbarian is in a pretty decent place, though it's still not all that good at actually forcing enemies to attack it (i.e- properly tanking) which has been my main criticism; it still requires your DM to accept "I use Reckless Attack" to mean "enemies should attack this beefcake".
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Also Sundering Blow just seems bad; overly complicated for an extra 3-4 damage. Given its description and name I was expecting advantage on the next ally's attack (like a free Help action).
Just to point out, it's not 3 or 4 damage, it's 3 or 4 attack, as it affects the attack roll.
With regards to Brutal Strike specifically, I just don't see the need for it to be tied to giving up advantage on Reckless Attack; it makes this feature overly complicated and weirdly implies that a Barbarian can only fight strategically while being reckless? It's your entire 9th-level feature so I think it's fine for it just to be something you can do once per turn; if it needs some extra cost then make it a Rage-only ability to emphasise that it's more about brute force rather than skilful precision.
Also Sundering Blow just seems bad; overly complicated for an extra 3-4 damage. Given its description and name I was expecting advantage on the next ally's attack (like a free Help action), similar to guiding bolt.
I know it's not new to this UA, but while Indomitable Might applying to Strength saving throws is better than the 5e version, and Strength can go even higher now at 20th-level, it still feels weak for an 18th-level feature. I know it basically means that you'll pretty much never fail Athletics checks or Strength saves, but are these common enough for that to really matter? Now that grappling no longer uses an opposed check the value of Athletics has decreased, and even before that happened on the checks side this feature is still way worse than a Rogue's 11th-level Reliable Talent (which applies to a whole bunch of skills you'll be using all the time). I know Strength saving throws are somewhat common (not as much as Dexterity and Wisdom, but not as rare as Intelligence or Charisma) but they're really only used for one or two effects anyway so it feels like Barbarian might as well just get always-on freedom of movement or something to actually make this an "unstoppable force" feature.
Overall I think Barbarian is in a pretty decent place, though it's still not all that good at actually forcing enemies to attack it (i.e- properly tanking) which has been my main criticism; it still requires your DM to accept "I use Reckless Attack" to mean "enemies should attack this beefcake".
The Barbarian can turn a whole bunch of skills into STR checks if they are raging with their lower level feature. So it makes the 18th level features much better. Reliable Talent is obviously better, but then skill checks is what Rogues are experts at so they should be the best at them.
Just to point out, it's not 3 or 4 damage, it's 3 or 4 attack, as it affects the attack roll.
I seem to have completely missed that, thanks! I still think I'd prefer it to be advantage as this feels like a weird way to do it. I guess it could be better if you know you have some way for an ally to get both advantage and the flat bonus, Wild Heart with the Wolf aspect could combo very well with it?
Tricky though, in my experience at least people tend to remember advantage but forget most of the other one-off bonuses they get!
The Barbarian can turn a whole bunch of skills into STR checks if they are raging with their lower level feature. So it makes the 18th level features much better.
I forgot about Primal Knowledge! In that case, yeah, that makes the feature a lot better than it was, and actually makes the cost of burning Rage for skill checks a lot less difficult if you're pretty much guaranteed to succeed at them.
I'll strike out some of my post, turns out it's hard to catch and remember everything in these UAs! 😂
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Just to point out, it's not 3 or 4 damage, it's 3 or 4 attack, as it affects the attack roll.
I seem to have completely missed that, thanks! I still think I'd prefer it to be advantage as this feels like a weird way to do it. I guess it could be better if you know you have some way for an ally to get both advantage and the flat bonus, Wild Heart with the Wolf aspect could combo very well with it?
Tricky though, in my experience at least people tend to remember advantage but forget most of the other bonuses they get!
I agree that advantage would be better, mostly when playing with a rogue in the party since you can now knock a hostile out of the 5 foot range for sneak attack but the rogue could still benefit from it from the advantage, since Barbarian and Rogue both have good initiative bonuses, means this could be applicable in such a party a lot of the time. Only time this advantage would be worse is probably for something like Vow of Enmity from Oath of Vengeance Paladin or another barbarian, it's quiet a limited use-case.
The Barbarian Weapon Masteries can be stacked with Brutal Strike. So the outrageous push is possible. There is nothing that says it can’t and JC specifically said you could in the video. I would change it from requiring reckless attack and just make it require Advantage.
If you use Advantage on an attack, you can forgo Advantage on the attack roll you make with a Strength-based attack. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d10 damage of the same type dealt by the weapon or Unarmed Strike, and you can cause one Brutal Strike effect of your choice. You have the following effect options.
This way you can use Reckless attack to get advantage or some other means. Also it solves the problem of advantage from multiple sources. As it’s written in the UA if you are flanking you still need to Reckless Attack to use it, but you also forfeit the advantage gained from flanking. It could also be written
If you use Reckless Attack, you can forgo the Advantage granted from Reckless Attack on the next attack roll you make on your turn with a Strength-based attack. If that attack hits, the target takes an extra 1d10 damage of the same type dealt by the weapon or Unarmed Strike, and you can cause one Brutal Strike effect of your choice. You have the following effect options.
This way if you are flanking an enemy you would still have advantage from flanking. You would only forfeit the advantage granted from reckless attack. Of the two options I prefer the first, but either would fix the only problem I have with Brutal Strike.
Brutal Strike definitely need a better wording clarification on the Advantage use from Reckless attack, but I believe they just want it to have a price to pay for the extra humph for the effect as in going for a big swing that push back but leave u open for retaliation.
If you already have advantage then Brutal Strike is powerful, if you do not then it's a bit more questionable. Advantage is roughly equivalent to a +5 on an attack roll, is trading that for a 1d10 good? For reasons below*, Personally I'd like to have seen the 2d10 come in with the level 13 feature and then the level 17 be 3d10. While I think Barbarian should have less DPR than a fighter or paladin, it still needs to be higher than what is in the UA I feel.
For level 9, obviously Forceful Blow has some amazing utility, you can use it to shove creatures far back, such as over a cliff or into the AoE of an allies spell. I'd say the feature does not stack with Push since I see nothing in the wording of either to suggest that they could. Push and Hamstring as a combo already has some major kiting potential in it anyway.
For level 13, Staggering Blow is great for pairing with a spellcaster or monk, Sundering Blow is okay too but I think Staggering Blow is better since most DC save effects are usually more impactful than a +3/+4 to an attack roll.
For level 17, being able to use two effects together really adds a lot, the 2d10 here I feel is a little low on the DPR side, it should have been 3d10 by this point I feel.
* I also dislike the wording of the feature. It says if you use Reckless Attack, you can forgo advantage on the next attack roll. It's notable that Reckless Attack is used on the first attack roll of a round, going by this, the way I read it is that you can only use Brutal Strike on the second attack of any given round that you use Reckless Attack. This makes it slightly tricker to use with Great Weapon Master or Polearm master, where you might have a 3rd attack. once per round is fine but it should have been able to replace the advantage effect of any attack roll for a strength based attack, not specifically the 2nd attack of the round. It also means it doesn't work well with say the help action or anything that only benefits the "next attack" since you can't use it with your 1st attack. You can get around this by attacking another creature first, so long as one is available, so it's not impossible to benefit from but a notable downside, more so if there are no other creatures you can target.
Well, if Advantage is worth about a +5, and the Brutal Strike feature provides an extra 1d10 plus a rider, doesn't that make it roughly equivalent to the old Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter -5/+10 tradeoff. It seems like that was awfully popular, an so I'd expect that there may be plenty of times where Brutal Strike will be worth the risk.
I do agree that the wording is unclear about which attacks it may or may not be used for. The way I read it is that Reckless Attack is a feature that is turned on before making any attacks, so it would only be the first attack that is eligible for Brutal Strike, but I can understand your reasoning for it only being the second attack. I would probably prefer it if one could use it on any single attack in a round when the Barbarian is using Reckless Attack, by forgoing advantage on that one attack.
If you already have advantage then Brutal Strike is powerful, if you do not then it's a bit more questionable. Advantage is roughly equivalent to a +5 on an attack roll, is trading that for a 1d10 good? For reasons below*, Personally I'd like to have seen the 2d10 come in with the level 13 feature and then the level 17 be 3d10. While I think Barbarian should have less DPR than a fighter or paladin, it still needs to be higher than what is in the UA I feel.
For level 9, obviously Forceful Blow has some amazing utility, you can use it to shove creatures far back, such as over a cliff or into the AoE of an allies spell. I'd say the feature does not stack with Push since I see nothing in the wording of either to suggest that they could. Push and Hamstring as a combo already has some major kiting potential in it anyway.
For level 13, Staggering Blow is great for pairing with a spellcaster or monk, Sundering Blow is okay too but I think Staggering Blow is better since most DC save effects are usually more impactful than a +3/+4 to an attack roll.
For level 17, being able to use two effects together really adds a lot, the 2d10 here I feel is a little low on the DPR side, it should have been 3d10 by this point I feel.
* I also dislike the wording of the feature. It says if you use Reckless Attack, you can forgo advantage on the next attack roll. It's notable that Reckless Attack is used on the first attack roll of a round, going by this, the way I read it is that you can only use Brutal Strike on the second attack of any given round that you use Reckless Attack. This makes it slightly tricker to use with Great Weapon Master or Polearm master, where you might have a 3rd attack. once per round is fine but it should have been able to replace the advantage effect of any attack roll for a strength based attack, not specifically the 2nd attack of the round. It also means it doesn't work well with say the help action or anything that only benefits the "next attack" since you can't use it with your 1st attack. You can get around this by attacking another creature first, so long as one is available, so it's not impossible to benefit from but a notable downside, more so if there are no other creatures you can target.
Well, if Advantage is worth about a +5, and the Brutal Strike feature provides an extra 1d10 plus a rider, doesn't that make it roughly equivalent to the old Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter -5/+10 tradeoff. It seems like that was awfully popular, an so I'd expect that there may be plenty of times where Brutal Strike will be worth the risk.
I do agree that the wording is unclear about which attacks it may or may not be used for. The way I read it is that Reckless Attack is a feature that is turned on before making any attacks, so it would only be the first attack that is eligible for Brutal Strike, but I can understand your reasoning for it only being the second attack. I would probably prefer it if one could use it on any single attack in a round when the Barbarian is using Reckless Attack, by forgoing advantage on that one attack.
The old trade off was 5 attack for 10 damage, this is ~5 attack for ~5.5 (1d10) damage, until you get level 17 and get the 2d10, when it's ~11 (2d10) damage. So this isn't equal, it's worse, you're relying on the secondary effect to be enough to justify the lower DPR.
If you already have advantage then Brutal Strike is powerful, if you do not then it's a bit more questionable. Advantage is roughly equivalent to a +5 on an attack roll, is trading that for a 1d10 good? For reasons below*, Personally I'd like to have seen the 2d10 come in with the level 13 feature and then the level 17 be 3d10. While I think Barbarian should have less DPR than a fighter or paladin, it still needs to be higher than what is in the UA I feel.
For level 9, obviously Forceful Blow has some amazing utility, you can use it to shove creatures far back, such as over a cliff or into the AoE of an allies spell. I'd say the feature does not stack with Push since I see nothing in the wording of either to suggest that they could. Push and Hamstring as a combo already has some major kiting potential in it anyway.
For level 13, Staggering Blow is great for pairing with a spellcaster or monk, Sundering Blow is okay too but I think Staggering Blow is better since most DC save effects are usually more impactful than a +3/+4 to an attack roll.
For level 17, being able to use two effects together really adds a lot, the 2d10 here I feel is a little low on the DPR side, it should have been 3d10 by this point I feel.
* I also dislike the wording of the feature. It says if you use Reckless Attack, you can forgo advantage on the next attack roll. It's notable that Reckless Attack is used on the first attack roll of a round, going by this, the way I read it is that you can only use Brutal Strike on the second attack of any given round that you use Reckless Attack. This makes it slightly tricker to use with Great Weapon Master or Polearm master, where you might have a 3rd attack. once per round is fine but it should have been able to replace the advantage effect of any attack roll for a strength based attack, not specifically the 2nd attack of the round. It also means it doesn't work well with say the help action or anything that only benefits the "next attack" since you can't use it with your 1st attack. You can get around this by attacking another creature first, so long as one is available, so it's not impossible to benefit from but a notable downside, more so if there are no other creatures you can target.
Well, if Advantage is worth about a +5, and the Brutal Strike feature provides an extra 1d10 plus a rider, doesn't that make it roughly equivalent to the old Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter -5/+10 tradeoff. It seems like that was awfully popular, an so I'd expect that there may be plenty of times where Brutal Strike will be worth the risk.
I do agree that the wording is unclear about which attacks it may or may not be used for. The way I read it is that Reckless Attack is a feature that is turned on before making any attacks, so it would only be the first attack that is eligible for Brutal Strike, but I can understand your reasoning for it only being the second attack. I would probably prefer it if one could use it on any single attack in a round when the Barbarian is using Reckless Attack, by forgoing advantage on that one attack.
The old trade off was 5 attack for 10 damage, this is ~5 attack for ~5.5 (1d10) damage, until you get level 17 and get the 2d10, when it's ~11 (2d10) damage. So this isn't equal, it's worse, you're relying on the secondary effect to be enough to justify the lower DPR.
Yes, you are right, that is exactly what I am doing. I think that a 15 foot shove plus extra movement, a 15-foot reduction in speed, disadvantage on a saving throw, or +3-4 to hit on the next attack roll by another creature are roughly equivalent to the loss of approximately 4.5 damage. It is very similar to the tradeoffs that the new Rogue Cunning Strike provides, reducing a Sneak Attack die or dice for a secondary effect.
I would also like to note that (if my memory serves) Advantage is essentially equivalent to +5 when there is about a 50/50 chance of success. This, admittedly, is usually the most common situation for attack rolls in 5e, but if the chance to hit is higher or lower, then Advantage is not worth as much. I haven't really played much above 9th level, but I believe that I have heard that at higher levels it tends to be easier to hit with all the bonuses a character gets by that point outstripping the general armor classes of opponents. This would mean that in many cases, one would not even be giving up the equivalent of +5 to hit, but instead something a bit lower.
If you already have advantage then Brutal Strike is powerful, if you do not then it's a bit more questionable. Advantage is roughly equivalent to a +5 on an attack roll, is trading that for a 1d10 good? For reasons below*, Personally I'd like to have seen the 2d10 come in with the level 13 feature and then the level 17 be 3d10. While I think Barbarian should have less DPR than a fighter or paladin, it still needs to be higher than what is in the UA I feel.
For level 9, obviously Forceful Blow has some amazing utility, you can use it to shove creatures far back, such as over a cliff or into the AoE of an allies spell. I'd say the feature does not stack with Push since I see nothing in the wording of either to suggest that they could. Push and Hamstring as a combo already has some major kiting potential in it anyway.
For level 13, Staggering Blow is great for pairing with a spellcaster or monk, Sundering Blow is okay too but I think Staggering Blow is better since most DC save effects are usually more impactful than a +3/+4 to an attack roll.
For level 17, being able to use two effects together really adds a lot, the 2d10 here I feel is a little low on the DPR side, it should have been 3d10 by this point I feel.
* I also dislike the wording of the feature. It says if you use Reckless Attack, you can forgo advantage on the next attack roll. It's notable that Reckless Attack is used on the first attack roll of a round, going by this, the way I read it is that you can only use Brutal Strike on the second attack of any given round that you use Reckless Attack. This makes it slightly tricker to use with Great Weapon Master or Polearm master, where you might have a 3rd attack. once per round is fine but it should have been able to replace the advantage effect of any attack roll for a strength based attack, not specifically the 2nd attack of the round. It also means it doesn't work well with say the help action or anything that only benefits the "next attack" since you can't use it with your 1st attack. You can get around this by attacking another creature first, so long as one is available, so it's not impossible to benefit from but a notable downside, more so if there are no other creatures you can target.
Well, if Advantage is worth about a +5, and the Brutal Strike feature provides an extra 1d10 plus a rider, doesn't that make it roughly equivalent to the old Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter -5/+10 tradeoff. It seems like that was awfully popular, an so I'd expect that there may be plenty of times where Brutal Strike will be worth the risk.
I do agree that the wording is unclear about which attacks it may or may not be used for. The way I read it is that Reckless Attack is a feature that is turned on before making any attacks, so it would only be the first attack that is eligible for Brutal Strike, but I can understand your reasoning for it only being the second attack. I would probably prefer it if one could use it on any single attack in a round when the Barbarian is using Reckless Attack, by forgoing advantage on that one attack.
The old trade off was 5 attack for 10 damage, this is ~5 attack for ~5.5 (1d10) damage, until you get level 17 and get the 2d10, when it's ~11 (2d10) damage. So this isn't equal, it's worse, you're relying on the secondary effect to be enough to justify the lower DPR.
Yes, you are right, that is exactly what I am doing. I think that a 15 foot shove plus extra movement, a 15-foot reduction in speed, disadvantage on a saving throw, or +3-4 to hit on the next attack roll by another creature are roughly equivalent to the loss of approximately 4.5 damage. It is very similar to the tradeoffs that the new Rogue Cunning Strike provides, reducing a Sneak Attack die or dice for a secondary effect.
I would also like to note that (if my memory serves) Advantage is essentially equivalent to +5 when there is about a 50/50 chance of success. This, admittedly, is usually the most common situation for attack rolls in 5e, but if the chance to hit is higher or lower, then Advantage is not worth as much. I haven't really played much above 9th level, but I believe that I have heard that at higher levels it tends to be easier to hit with all the bonuses a character gets by that point outstripping the general armor classes of opponents. This would mean that in many cases, one would not even be giving up the equivalent of +5 to hit, but instead something a bit lower.
The numbers aren't that hard to calculate
at a 50/50 advantage initially appears to be a +5, since it's a 50% chance to hit on two die, so 1 - (0.5 * 0.5) = 0.75. Or 75% chance to hit, getting a +5 would shift a 50% chance to hit to 75% but we will come back to why it's more than a +5 shortly.
normally you expect a 65% chance to hit, with advantage you'd get 1-(0.35*0.35) or 87.75% increase. Which is an increase 22.75% increase, this however is still better than a +5 despite being less than a 25% increase.
At a 75% chance to hit then we are looking at an increase from 75% to 93.75%. This is where it's definitely worse than a +5. at 70% it's generally slightly worse than a +5 (70% to 91%).
The reason why at 65% it still beats a +5 is the effect on critical hits. a normal attack has a 5% chance to critical, an advantage attack has a 9.75% chance to critical, critical does not affect all damage but die damage so it's not as straight forwards to calculate.
Okay, point taken on Advantage. I'd still say that the supplementary effects are comparable enough to an extra 4.5 points of damage to make the trade-off worthwhile in a decent amount of situations, which I think is good. Extra damage and a supplementary effect in exchange for a lower chance to hit provides an extra choice to make in combat that is not entirely useless nor an automatic optimal choice (as the GWM/SS -5/+10 often was). This seems to be exactly how an ability like this should work.
I'm also of the opinion that tying Brutal Strike to Reckless Attack feels... clunky. I think it would work better if it was all just Reckless options... like, instead of Reckless Attack being the base and you have to make your Reckless Attack worse in order to use the benefits... just include the Reckless Attack auto-bonus in the listed options. That way, once you get to higher levels, you can at least combine it with the other Brutal Strike features... treat the whole thing more like a Battlemaster, but instead of spending Superiority Die you're just giving enemies advantage to hit you.
I think, in general, I like the One D&D is trying to give more variety and tactical options for martials, but having this complicated feature combined with the also-complicated Weapon Mastery system just feels like putting a hat on a hat. I don't think any of it is bad, but it feels like it could use some paring down and simplification.
The only other thing is... I still don't like Primal Knowledge. I think it's a good idea, overall, to give Barbarians some additional out-of-combat features, especially since they're making it easier to recover Rage... but it still feels weird that you can suddenly make Perception checks using your STR score, because I guess you're just looking around really, really hard. I know that it's to make the feature more mechanically useful... STR-based checks are done with advantage while raging, and your STR score is almost guaranteed to be your highest score as a Barbarian, so the more features that key off of it for you, the better. But it just feels... wrong to me. Even if it was just changed to CON instead of STR would make more sense to me. I think in general there's a focus in OneD&D to prioritize mechanical function in the core classes over roleplay (such as refocusing Monk to be less focused on Asian Martial Arts and more just general hand-to-hand fighting), so I totally understand why Primal Knowledge works the way it does, but it still just feels wrong to me.
The only other thing is... I still don't like Primal Knowledge. I think it's a good idea, overall, to give Barbarians some additional out-of-combat features, especially since they're making it easier to recover Rage... but it still feels weird that you can suddenly make Perception checks using your STR score, because I guess you're just looking around really, really hard.
I guess maybe you're squeezing your eyes out of your head so that they're physically closer to what you're looking at? 😂
Perception is definitely one of the weirder ones, followed by Stealth (you're crushing yourself into a smaller ball maybe?) and Survival (just uprooting trees and hoping there's fruit in them? Though I guess it fits for making traps to hunt?). Strength (Intimidation) is the one that I would normally allow anyway and is the most sensible one as I picture that as intimidating via physical presence (looming over the target, rather than trying to threaten with words).
As Agilemind pointed out, it being Strength combines with Indomitable Might to make that one a much better feature, but it's a weird reason to do it. Advantage might make more sense logistically, as you can still use Strength if you can reasonably justify it based on what you're doing (e.g- Strength Survival works better for firewood or maybe hunting rather than foraging).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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I do wonder if it would be better to just... give you advantage on those features and let you add your rage damage to the check. That way if you have low WIS you still get a solid boost to Perception while raging. It's still a bit tricky to explain why going into a Rage gives you boosts to Stealth.
I just feel weird criticizing this because I'm basically arguing that the feature should be worse entirely for roleplay reasons.
I do wonder if it would be better to just... give you advantage on those features and let you add your rage damage to the check. That way if you have low WIS you still get a solid boost to Perception while raging. It's still a bit tricky to explain why going into a Rage gives you boosts to Stealth.
You could at least more easily hand wave that as "heightened state of combat readiness" or something; basically like a big adrenaline kick in in anticipation of action, more like a prowling tiger than an incoherent roid rage monster?
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Reckless giving up all advantage to activate BS is too punishing, plus it makes no sense in the fiction. If I give up Reckless Advantage but my target is still blind, paralyzed, prone and unconscious, I should still get advantage on my swing from those. The way it's currently written, you're not just giving up advantage, you're effectively imposing disadvantage on yourself.
The way I'm reading it you forgo all advantage on the attack, not just from reckless, and it only effects the first attack you make after using reckless so you still get your second attack with advantage.
The bully is strong but not as strong as the new open hand monk using their flurry of blows for pushes with their push back feature. The versatility of mixing the push in with slows and topples seems more interesting than mega pushing to me. As far as I can tell this all stacks with basher and slasher as well?
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So, what does everyone think of the new Barbarian (specifically) it’s Brutal Critical?
We know Barbs get weapon mastery now, right? So with the brutal critical and its upgrade, can we use the mastery in addition with the brutal critical? It just says forgo advantage from that attack to do one of these effects, but it’s still an attack. What happens if the Barb is using let’s say a war hammer with the push mastery and you want to use the forceful blow brutal, so they go back 25 feet? This isn’t even including world tree, which I think also has a push effect.
The big question here is do they stack? If they do that puts the base barbarian up there with the battle master fighter, which is pretty crazy since you can basically mix and match masteries with each other or stack them. But as mentioned that’s just the base barb. I guess the same can be said for the rouge too with its cunning strike. This could be really wild.
Thoughts?
If you already have advantage then Brutal Strike is powerful, if you do not then it's a bit more questionable. Advantage is roughly equivalent to a +5 on an attack roll, is trading that for a 1d10 good? For reasons below*, Personally I'd like to have seen the 2d10 come in with the level 13 feature and then the level 17 be 3d10. While I think Barbarian should have less DPR than a fighter or paladin, it still needs to be higher than what is in the UA I feel.
For level 9, obviously Forceful Blow has some amazing utility, you can use it to shove creatures far back, such as over a cliff or into the AoE of an allies spell. I'd say the feature does not stack with Push since I see nothing in the wording of either to suggest that they could. Push and Hamstring as a combo already has some major kiting potential in it anyway.
For level 13, Staggering Blow is great for pairing with a spellcaster or monk, Sundering Blow is okay too but I think Staggering Blow is better since most DC save effects are usually more impactful than a +3/+4 to an attack roll.
For level 17, being able to use two effects together really adds a lot, the 2d10 here I feel is a little low on the DPR side, it should have been 3d10 by this point I feel.
* I also dislike the wording of the feature. It says if you use Reckless Attack, you can forgo advantage on the next attack roll. It's notable that Reckless Attack is used on the first attack roll of a round, going by this, the way I read it is that you can only use Brutal Strike on the second attack of any given round that you use Reckless Attack. This makes it slightly tricker to use with Great Weapon Master or Polearm master, where you might have a 3rd attack. once per round is fine but it should have been able to replace the advantage effect of any attack roll for a strength based attack, not specifically the 2nd attack of the round. It also means it doesn't work well with say the help action or anything that only benefits the "next attack" since you can't use it with your 1st attack. You can get around this by attacking another creature first, so long as one is available, so it's not impossible to benefit from but a notable downside, more so if there are no other creatures you can target.
With regards to Brutal Strike specifically, I just don't see the need for it to be tied to giving up advantage on Reckless Attack; it makes this feature overly complicated and weirdly implies that a Barbarian can only fight strategically while being reckless? It's your entire 9th-level feature so I think it's fine for it just to be something you can do once per turn; if it needs some extra cost then make it a Rage-only ability to emphasise that it's more about brute force rather than skilful precision.
Also Sundering Blow just seems bad; overly complicated for an extra 3-4 damage. Given its description and name I was expecting advantage on the next ally's attack (like a free Help action), similar to guiding bolt.
I know it's not new to this UA, but while Indomitable Might applying to Strength saving throws is better than the 5e version, and Strength can go even higher now at 20th-level, it still feels weak for an 18th-level feature. I know it basically means that you'll pretty much never fail Athletics checks or Strength saves, but are these common enough for that to really matter? Now that grappling no longer uses an opposed check the value of Athletics has decreased, and even before that happened on the checks side this feature is still way worse than a Rogue's 11th-level Reliable Talent (which applies to a whole bunch of skills you'll be using all the time). I know Strength saving throws are somewhat common (not as much as Dexterity and Wisdom, but not as rare as Intelligence or Charisma) but they're really only used for one or two effects anyway so it feels like Barbarian might as well just get always-on freedom of movement or something to actually make this an "unstoppable force" feature.
(turns out I've misread/forgotten some important bits, so the spoilered section can be ignored!)
Overall I think Barbarian is in a pretty decent place, though it's still not all that good at actually forcing enemies to attack it (i.e- properly tanking) which has been my main criticism; it still requires your DM to accept "I use Reckless Attack" to mean "enemies should attack this beefcake".
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Just to point out, it's not 3 or 4 damage, it's 3 or 4 attack, as it affects the attack roll.
The Barbarian can turn a whole bunch of skills into STR checks if they are raging with their lower level feature. So it makes the 18th level features much better. Reliable Talent is obviously better, but then skill checks is what Rogues are experts at so they should be the best at them.
I seem to have completely missed that, thanks! I still think I'd prefer it to be advantage as this feels like a weird way to do it. I guess it could be better if you know you have some way for an ally to get both advantage and the flat bonus, Wild Heart with the Wolf aspect could combo very well with it?
Tricky though, in my experience at least people tend to remember advantage but forget most of the other one-off bonuses they get!
I forgot about Primal Knowledge! In that case, yeah, that makes the feature a lot better than it was, and actually makes the cost of burning Rage for skill checks a lot less difficult if you're pretty much guaranteed to succeed at them.
I'll strike out some of my post, turns out it's hard to catch and remember everything in these UAs! 😂
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I agree that advantage would be better, mostly when playing with a rogue in the party since you can now knock a hostile out of the 5 foot range for sneak attack but the rogue could still benefit from it from the advantage, since Barbarian and Rogue both have good initiative bonuses, means this could be applicable in such a party a lot of the time. Only time this advantage would be worse is probably for something like Vow of Enmity from Oath of Vengeance Paladin or another barbarian, it's quiet a limited use-case.
The Barbarian Weapon Masteries can be stacked with Brutal Strike. So the outrageous push is possible. There is nothing that says it can’t and JC specifically said you could in the video.
I would change it from requiring reckless attack and just make it require Advantage.
This way you can use Reckless attack to get advantage or some other means. Also it solves the problem of advantage from multiple sources. As it’s written in the UA if you are flanking you still need to Reckless Attack to use it, but you also forfeit the advantage gained from flanking. It could also be written
This way if you are flanking an enemy you would still have advantage from flanking. You would only forfeit the advantage granted from reckless attack. Of the two options I prefer the first, but either would fix the only problem I have with Brutal Strike.
Brutal Strike definitely need a better wording clarification on the Advantage use from Reckless attack, but I believe they just want it to have a price to pay for the extra humph for the effect as in going for a big swing that push back but leave u open for retaliation.
Well, if Advantage is worth about a +5, and the Brutal Strike feature provides an extra 1d10 plus a rider, doesn't that make it roughly equivalent to the old Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter -5/+10 tradeoff. It seems like that was awfully popular, an so I'd expect that there may be plenty of times where Brutal Strike will be worth the risk.
I do agree that the wording is unclear about which attacks it may or may not be used for. The way I read it is that Reckless Attack is a feature that is turned on before making any attacks, so it would only be the first attack that is eligible for Brutal Strike, but I can understand your reasoning for it only being the second attack. I would probably prefer it if one could use it on any single attack in a round when the Barbarian is using Reckless Attack, by forgoing advantage on that one attack.
The old trade off was 5 attack for 10 damage, this is ~5 attack for ~5.5 (1d10) damage, until you get level 17 and get the 2d10, when it's ~11 (2d10) damage. So this isn't equal, it's worse, you're relying on the secondary effect to be enough to justify the lower DPR.
Yes, you are right, that is exactly what I am doing. I think that a 15 foot shove plus extra movement, a 15-foot reduction in speed, disadvantage on a saving throw, or +3-4 to hit on the next attack roll by another creature are roughly equivalent to the loss of approximately 4.5 damage. It is very similar to the tradeoffs that the new Rogue Cunning Strike provides, reducing a Sneak Attack die or dice for a secondary effect.
I would also like to note that (if my memory serves) Advantage is essentially equivalent to +5 when there is about a 50/50 chance of success. This, admittedly, is usually the most common situation for attack rolls in 5e, but if the chance to hit is higher or lower, then Advantage is not worth as much. I haven't really played much above 9th level, but I believe that I have heard that at higher levels it tends to be easier to hit with all the bonuses a character gets by that point outstripping the general armor classes of opponents. This would mean that in many cases, one would not even be giving up the equivalent of +5 to hit, but instead something a bit lower.
The numbers aren't that hard to calculate
at a 50/50 advantage initially appears to be a +5, since it's a 50% chance to hit on two die, so 1 - (0.5 * 0.5) = 0.75. Or 75% chance to hit, getting a +5 would shift a 50% chance to hit to 75% but we will come back to why it's more than a +5 shortly.
normally you expect a 65% chance to hit, with advantage you'd get 1-(0.35*0.35) or 87.75% increase. Which is an increase 22.75% increase, this however is still better than a +5 despite being less than a 25% increase.
At a 75% chance to hit then we are looking at an increase from 75% to 93.75%. This is where it's definitely worse than a +5. at 70% it's generally slightly worse than a +5 (70% to 91%).
The reason why at 65% it still beats a +5 is the effect on critical hits. a normal attack has a 5% chance to critical, an advantage attack has a 9.75% chance to critical, critical does not affect all damage but die damage so it's not as straight forwards to calculate.
Okay, point taken on Advantage. I'd still say that the supplementary effects are comparable enough to an extra 4.5 points of damage to make the trade-off worthwhile in a decent amount of situations, which I think is good. Extra damage and a supplementary effect in exchange for a lower chance to hit provides an extra choice to make in combat that is not entirely useless nor an automatic optimal choice (as the GWM/SS -5/+10 often was). This seems to be exactly how an ability like this should work.
I'm also of the opinion that tying Brutal Strike to Reckless Attack feels... clunky. I think it would work better if it was all just Reckless options... like, instead of Reckless Attack being the base and you have to make your Reckless Attack worse in order to use the benefits... just include the Reckless Attack auto-bonus in the listed options. That way, once you get to higher levels, you can at least combine it with the other Brutal Strike features... treat the whole thing more like a Battlemaster, but instead of spending Superiority Die you're just giving enemies advantage to hit you.
I think, in general, I like the One D&D is trying to give more variety and tactical options for martials, but having this complicated feature combined with the also-complicated Weapon Mastery system just feels like putting a hat on a hat. I don't think any of it is bad, but it feels like it could use some paring down and simplification.
The only other thing is... I still don't like Primal Knowledge. I think it's a good idea, overall, to give Barbarians some additional out-of-combat features, especially since they're making it easier to recover Rage... but it still feels weird that you can suddenly make Perception checks using your STR score, because I guess you're just looking around really, really hard. I know that it's to make the feature more mechanically useful... STR-based checks are done with advantage while raging, and your STR score is almost guaranteed to be your highest score as a Barbarian, so the more features that key off of it for you, the better. But it just feels... wrong to me. Even if it was just changed to CON instead of STR would make more sense to me. I think in general there's a focus in OneD&D to prioritize mechanical function in the core classes over roleplay (such as refocusing Monk to be less focused on Asian Martial Arts and more just general hand-to-hand fighting), so I totally understand why Primal Knowledge works the way it does, but it still just feels wrong to me.
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I guess maybe you're squeezing your eyes out of your head so that they're physically closer to what you're looking at? 😂
Perception is definitely one of the weirder ones, followed by Stealth (you're crushing yourself into a smaller ball maybe?) and Survival (just uprooting trees and hoping there's fruit in them? Though I guess it fits for making traps to hunt?). Strength (Intimidation) is the one that I would normally allow anyway and is the most sensible one as I picture that as intimidating via physical presence (looming over the target, rather than trying to threaten with words).
As Agilemind pointed out, it being Strength combines with Indomitable Might to make that one a much better feature, but it's a weird reason to do it. Advantage might make more sense logistically, as you can still use Strength if you can reasonably justify it based on what you're doing (e.g- Strength Survival works better for firewood or maybe hunting rather than foraging).
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I do wonder if it would be better to just... give you advantage on those features and let you add your rage damage to the check. That way if you have low WIS you still get a solid boost to Perception while raging. It's still a bit tricky to explain why going into a Rage gives you boosts to Stealth.
I just feel weird criticizing this because I'm basically arguing that the feature should be worse entirely for roleplay reasons.
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You could at least more easily hand wave that as "heightened state of combat readiness" or something; basically like a big adrenaline kick in in anticipation of action, more like a prowling tiger than an incoherent roid rage monster?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Reckless giving up all advantage to activate BS is too punishing, plus it makes no sense in the fiction. If I give up Reckless Advantage but my target is still blind, paralyzed, prone and unconscious, I should still get advantage on my swing from those. The way it's currently written, you're not just giving up advantage, you're effectively imposing disadvantage on yourself.
The way I'm reading it you forgo all advantage on the attack, not just from reckless, and it only effects the first attack you make after using reckless so you still get your second attack with advantage.
The bully is strong but not as strong as the new open hand monk using their flurry of blows for pushes with their push back feature. The versatility of mixing the push in with slows and topples seems more interesting than mega pushing to me. As far as I can tell this all stacks with basher and slasher as well?