Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Who is talking about a heist? thats a specific circumstance, In a heist, you can prepare any number of solutions to a problem. Generally speaking in dungeons, people kill monsters, combat is not quiet, you kill the enemies, then you investigate and open things.
Getting through a lock unobtrusively is not solely the province of a heist. It's an inherently desirable quality to trespassing somewhere you don't belong, which comprise the vast majority of places/containers that you'd be locked out of in the first place.
If you guys want to claim, that being slightly more useful at opening things quietly is worth being 30-50% behind on dps. i disagree, and i will feel sorry for the rogues in the future years complaining that they dont feel like an effective member of the group mid to late game.
And i will say, well, some people did bring it up when it was time to improve and balance the classes, but others said rogue was fine because it shouldnt do effective damage anyway, its main purpose is to be slightly more useful sometimes with very specific skills, well for a martial.
why are people fixated on making a class poor. There is no benefit to rogues being this far beneath the other classes dps without some MAJOR benefit.
Why are people specifically trying to make off-turn sneak attack a feature? What possible character fantasy is "I can't sneak attack twice when attacking, but through some magic, when it isn't my turn any more, I can sneak attack one more time" possibly fulfilling? Who is actually excited about having to sneak attack, then ready-action-when-I'm-done-I'm-going-to-sneak-attack-again?
Stop with this silly nonsense, I beg you.
Stabbing an enemy in the back when they turn and move away from you is an extremely rogue-ish thing to do. The problem is exclusively is the stupid combo with Haste & Ready action. To be honest, a lot of exploits in D&D rely on inappropriate use of the Ready action, Readying an action for "when my turn ends" or for "at the start of their turn" are illegal meta-gaming clauses. In the in-game world turns do not exist and character/creatures don't know when it is / isn't another creature's turn.
Yeah. Sure. OK.
Trivially easy to fix.
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per roundduring your turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.
Any opportunity attack you make also benefits from this feature, and it does not count against the once per round limitation.
There. Commander's strike and ready-end-of-turn-haste-daftness is now explicitly out, shanking someone in the liver when they run away is in.
If you guys want to claim, that being slightly more useful at opening things quietly is worth being 30-50% behind on dps. i disagree, and i will feel sorry for the rogues in the future years complaining that they dont feel like an effective member of the group mid to late game.
And i will say, well, some people did bring it up when it was time to improve and balance the classes, but others said rogue was fine because it shouldnt do effective damage anyway, its main purpose is to be slightly more useful sometimes with very specific skills, well for a martial.
why are people fixated on making a class poor. There is no benefit to rogues being this far beneath the other classes dps without some MAJOR benefit.
DEX based builds need to do less damage than STR based builds, since STR based builds suck at ranged damage and have a lower initiative, this can often lead to a Rogue having a full turn more than a STR based fighter or paladin and a Rogue can still ranged attack pretty decently, even if normally using a melee finesse weapon. Also at no point is rogue 50% behind.
Strength gives melee and thrown weapon damage, heavy armour requirement, strength saves (which is a minor save) and athletics
Dexterity gives finesse and ranged weapon damage, +AC to no armor, light armor and +2/+3 max AC to medium armor, +initiative, dexterity saving throws (which is a major save), Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth.
Comparing a rogue, which can melee or ranged attack against a STR build fighter or paladin is going to make rogue look weak if you assume that fighter or paladin is always in position.
Now I could see an argument for Rogue to get extra attack, but rogue would have to lose other features to compensate and crossbows might need a bit of redesign.
If you guys want to claim, that being slightly more useful at opening things quietly is worth being 30-50% behind on dps. i disagree, and i will feel sorry for the rogues in the future years complaining that they dont feel like an effective member of the group mid to late game.
And i will say, well, some people did bring it up when it was time to improve and balance the classes, but others said rogue was fine because it shouldnt do effective damage anyway, its main purpose is to be slightly more useful sometimes with very specific skills, well for a martial.
why are people fixated on making a class poor. There is no benefit to rogues being this far beneath the other classes dps without some MAJOR benefit.
DEX based builds need to do less damage than STR based builds, since STR based builds suck at ranged damage and have a lower initiative, this can often lead to a Rogue having a full turn more than a STR based fighter or paladin and a Rogue can still ranged attack pretty decently, even if normally using a melee finesse weapon. Also at no point is rogue 50% behind.
Strength gives melee and thrown weapon damage, heavy armour requirement, strength saves (which is a minor save) and athletics
Dexterity gives finesse and ranged weapon damage, +AC to no armor, light armor and +2/+3 max AC to medium armor, +initiative, dexterity saving throws (which is a major save), Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth.
Comparing a rogue, which can melee or ranged attack against a STR build fighter or paladin is going to make rogue look weak if you assume that fighter or paladin is always in position.
Now I could see an argument for Rogue to get extra attack, but rogue would have to lose other features to compensate and crossbows might need a bit of redesign.
Both dex builds and str builds can easily obtain the 17 AC mark. AC is not really a relevant consideration. This is not about melee versus ranged, if they want to make ranged or melee do more damage, that should be related to the weapons and the features, not the class. IE if they want to give rougue + damage in melee, thats perfectly legit, or maybe the off turn enable skill only works for melee. The dps numbers that are low for rogue are virtually the same melee, or range.
The difference in iniative is generally going to be +1 to + 3, as most people will throw 14 in dex. Just because something isnt your main stat doesnt mean you put zero in it. Also barbarian gets advantage to initiative. Champion gets advantage to initative, the Alert feat allows you to swap initiative and is a level zero feat. Monk uses dex, and does better damage, ranger can use dex and do better damage. A bonus on iniative does not justify lower damage, and its of questionable value anyway. There are effects which could be worse or better depending on going after an enemy, or ally.
simple no frills builds lets ignore accuracy for simplicity and crits for simplicity, this doesnt always favor rogue.
level 20 rogue 10d6+d8+6 +4.5 charger = 50 dpr
fighter level 20 gwf, gwm, charger, pam
greatsword to pam 5 attacks
(6d6+d10+d4)gwf+30+6(gwm)+4.5(charger) = 74.7dpr
not even calculating action surge
Barbarian level 20 gwm pam charger
dagger throwing to Pam, or GS to Pam 3-4 attacks
thrown dagger, but if you dont like throwing, use GS, difference is -4
note, using divine smite level 2 or higher gives you more dps, roughly +5 per level of divine smite used. also note, using divine favor first round gives roughly -2 first round, and +9 after. If you can still cast spirit weapon, that gives you better damage than PAM at level 3 and higher. Point being, 61 is the no resource guy. 70+ is the spell slot user.
ranger xbow master, gwm, charger (will dual wield with xbow and heavy xbow swap)
Round2 previous round+swift quiver (2 bonus attacks with heavy xbow) +(d10+6+5)*2 = 99.5
level 20 wizard blade of disaster
round 1 toll of the dead action, 4d12 BA blade of disaster 4d12(12d12 on crit) x2= 93.6
round 2 whatever spell they want+ blade of disaster. simplicity, lets say scorching ray slot 4 10d6+67.8 = 102.8
i could go on with other classes, but it doesnt really change much. Mostly because casters have powerful spells, and martials have on hit bonuses, multiple attacks, and way better feat synergy.
so yeah 75 is +50% damage over rogue's 50 damage. ( 75/50= 1.5)
so yeah, they are 50% or more behind most classes by 20, and the curve mostly starts to seperate around 6+
note as well that ranger and wizard, who are both ranged classes are not struggling to surpass rogue, and both have excellent OoC potential. And rogue doesnt usually get much out of its subclasses damage wise.
There is no good reason for rogue to be as weak as it is in comparison to other classes. The dex logic does not explain it. (as evidenced by ranger) the ranged logic does not explain it (as evidenced by casters)
If you guys want to claim, that being slightly more useful at opening things quietly is worth being 30-50% behind on dps. i disagree, and i will feel sorry for the rogues in the future years complaining that they dont feel like an effective member of the group mid to late game.
And i will say, well, some people did bring it up when it was time to improve and balance the classes, but others said rogue was fine because it shouldnt do effective damage anyway, its main purpose is to be slightly more useful sometimes with very specific skills, well for a martial.
why are people fixated on making a class poor. There is no benefit to rogues being this far beneath the other classes dps without some MAJOR benefit.
DEX based builds need to do less damage than STR based builds, since STR based builds suck at ranged damage and have a lower initiative, this can often lead to a Rogue having a full turn more than a STR based fighter or paladin and a Rogue can still ranged attack pretty decently, even if normally using a melee finesse weapon. Also at no point is rogue 50% behind.
Strength gives melee and thrown weapon damage, heavy armour requirement, strength saves (which is a minor save) and athletics
Dexterity gives finesse and ranged weapon damage, +AC to no armor, light armor and +2/+3 max AC to medium armor, +initiative, dexterity saving throws (which is a major save), Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth.
Comparing a rogue, which can melee or ranged attack against a STR build fighter or paladin is going to make rogue look weak if you assume that fighter or paladin is always in position.
Now I could see an argument for Rogue to get extra attack, but rogue would have to lose other features to compensate and crossbows might need a bit of redesign.
Both dex builds and str builds can easily obtain the 17 AC mark. AC is not really a relevant consideration. This is not about melee versus ranged, if they want to make ranged or melee do more damage, that should be related to the weapons and the features, not the class. IE if they want to give rougue + damage in melee, thats perfectly legit, or maybe the off turn enable skill only works for melee. The dps numbers that are low for rogue are virtually the same melee, or range.
The difference in iniative is generally going to be +1 to + 3, as most people will throw 14 in dex. Just because something isnt your main stat doesnt mean you put zero in it. Also barbarian gets advantage to initiative. Champion gets advantage to initative, the Alert feat allows you to swap initiative and is a level zero feat. Monk uses dex, and does better damage, ranger can use dex and do better damage. A bonus on iniative does not justify lower damage, and its of questionable value anyway. There are effects which could be worse or better depending on going after an enemy, or ally.
simple no frills builds lets ignore accuracy for simplicity and crits for simplicity, this doesnt always favor rogue.
level 20 rogue 10d6+d8+6 +4.5 charger = 50 dpr
fighter level 20 gwf, gwm, charger, pam
greatsword to pam 5 attacks
(6d6+d10+d4)gwf+30+6(gwm)+4.5(charger) = 74.7dpr
not even calculating action surge
Barbarian level 20 gwm pam charger
dagger throwing to Pam, or GS to Pam 3-4 attacks
thrown dagger, but if you dont like throwing, use GS, difference is -4
note, using divine smite level 2 or higher gives you more dps, roughly +5 per level of divine smite used. also note, using divine favor first round gives roughly -2 first round, and +9 after. If you can still cast spirit weapon, that gives you better damage than PAM at level 3 and higher. Point being, 61 is the no resource guy. 70+ is the spell slot user.
ranger xbow master, gwm, charger (will dual wield with xbow and heavy xbow swap)
Round2 previous round+swift quiver (2 bonus attacks with heavy xbow) +(d10+6+5)*2 = 99.5
level 20 wizard blade of disaster
round 1 toll of the dead action, 4d12 BA blade of disaster 4d12(12d12 on crit) x2= 93.6
round 2 whatever spell they want+ blade of disaster. simplicity, lets say scorching ray slot 4 10d6+67.8 = 102.8
i could go on with other classes, but it doesnt really change much. Mostly because casters have powerful spells, and martials have on hit bonuses, multiple attacks, and way better feat synergy.
so yeah 75 is +50% damage over rogue's 50 damage. ( 75/50= 1.5)
so yeah, they are 50% or more behind most classes by 20, and the curve mostly starts to seperate around 6+
note as well that ranger and wizard, who are both ranged classes are not struggling to surpass rogue, and both have excellent OoC potential. And rogue doesnt usually get much out of its subclasses damage wise.
There is no good reason for rogue to be as weak as it is in comparison to other classes. The dex logic does not explain it. (as evidenced by ranger) the ranged logic does not explain it (as evidenced by casters)
50% ahead is not the same thing as 50% behind, by your numbers (which are wrong) fighter is 50% ahead of rogue's (75/50=1.5) but rogue's is 33% behind fighter (50/75=0.66). You claimed Rogue is 50% behind, not that fighter is 50% ahead, these are two different numbers.
Current rules are unclear on if you could switch from greatsword to polearm like you have done here, I'd say no, you can't (but that is a discussion for another thread). Additionally you have put on a bonus action attack for fighter, but not for rogue. You can't optimize the fighter DPS and then not do the same for Rogue to claim these numbers, a shortsword and scimitar does more damage than just a rapier or light crossbow.
Level 20 is a broken level, purposefully so, but you can't ignore accuracy for level 20 since Rogue's level 20 capstone ability is literally built around accuracy. Rogue can choose to make an attack that they missed, which is going to be used to get a sneak attack that they otherwise would not have. Additionally accuracy would favor Rogue since the shortsword gives Vex for the Scimitar to gets advantage, which works even better with with Rogue's capstone.
Overall, you're still making the same mistake of comparing optimal in position damage only, which again makes the fighter look better than it actually is.
Both dex builds and str builds can easily obtain the 17 AC mark. AC is not really a relevant consideration.
Full Plate is 18 AC, which without magic armour, feats or features, you can not get that with light or medium armour. Half-Plate can match it with Medium armour master. To get 17AC with studded, you'd need a DEX modifier of +5, which you can't get before level 8 while full plate usually comes online around level 4. But it is irrelevant overall.
The difference in iniative is generally going to be +1 to + 3, as most people will throw 14 in dex. Just because something isnt your main stat doesnt mean you put zero in it
You'd put 13 in DEX for a Standary Array build, since 15+2 goes into STR and 14+1 into CON, so at level 4 you pickup GWM (+1 STR), PAM (+1 STR), Charger(+1 STR), Speedster/Durable/Heavily Armour(+1 CON) and Resilient(+1 DEX). You'd pick resilient up likely after the +3 STR, so talking level 12. So from 8 to 11, at least, it'll probably be at least +4 to initiative. Of course this assumes going for Resilient DEX, going for WIS is also equally a valid choice which would mean going for another feat for DEX at a later level.
Rogue is NOT behind in damage, you're both miscalculating because sneak attack can be added to any attack that hits and most of the time Rogue is making two attacks per turn, this DOUBLES (well almost) the chance to land your sneak attack damage compared to the damage of an ordinary attack. Thus if you account for the probability to land the damage, Rogue deals equal damage to any other martial.
PS comparing at level 20 is pointless because nobody plays at level 20 for more than 1-2 sessions. 99% of gameplay is at levels <20. Not to mention that by level 20 you are definitely going to have Very Rare or better magic items that will totally skew any calculation you are estimating in this impossible level 20, no magic item game. If you want to compare damage for actual play, do it at level 3, level 5, and level 8 as that will represent the majority of actual play.
If you guys want to claim, that being slightly more useful at opening things quietly is worth being 30-50% behind on dps. i disagree, and i will feel sorry for the rogues in the future years complaining that they dont feel like an effective member of the group mid to late game.
And i will say, well, some people did bring it up when it was time to improve and balance the classes, but others said rogue was fine because it shouldnt do effective damage anyway, its main purpose is to be slightly more useful sometimes with very specific skills, well for a martial.
why are people fixated on making a class poor. There is no benefit to rogues being this far beneath the other classes dps without some MAJOR benefit.
DEX based builds need to do less damage than STR based builds, since STR based builds suck at ranged damage and have a lower initiative, this can often lead to a Rogue having a full turn more than a STR based fighter or paladin and a Rogue can still ranged attack pretty decently, even if normally using a melee finesse weapon. Also at no point is rogue 50% behind.
Strength gives melee and thrown weapon damage, heavy armour requirement, strength saves (which is a minor save) and athletics
Dexterity gives finesse and ranged weapon damage, +AC to no armor, light armor and +2/+3 max AC to medium armor, +initiative, dexterity saving throws (which is a major save), Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth.
Comparing a rogue, which can melee or ranged attack against a STR build fighter or paladin is going to make rogue look weak if you assume that fighter or paladin is always in position.
Now I could see an argument for Rogue to get extra attack, but rogue would have to lose other features to compensate and crossbows might need a bit of redesign.
Both dex builds and str builds can easily obtain the 17 AC mark. AC is not really a relevant consideration. This is not about melee versus ranged, if they want to make ranged or melee do more damage, that should be related to the weapons and the features, not the class. IE if they want to give rougue + damage in melee, thats perfectly legit, or maybe the off turn enable skill only works for melee. The dps numbers that are low for rogue are virtually the same melee, or range.
The difference in iniative is generally going to be +1 to + 3, as most people will throw 14 in dex. Just because something isnt your main stat doesnt mean you put zero in it. Also barbarian gets advantage to initiative. Champion gets advantage to initative, the Alert feat allows you to swap initiative and is a level zero feat. Monk uses dex, and does better damage, ranger can use dex and do better damage. A bonus on iniative does not justify lower damage, and its of questionable value anyway. There are effects which could be worse or better depending on going after an enemy, or ally.
simple no frills builds lets ignore accuracy for simplicity and crits for simplicity, this doesnt always favor rogue.
level 20 rogue 10d6+d8+6 +4.5 charger = 50 dpr
fighter level 20 gwf, gwm, charger, pam
greatsword to pam 5 attacks
(6d6+d10+d4)gwf+30+6(gwm)+4.5(charger) = 74.7dpr
not even calculating action surge
Barbarian level 20 gwm pam charger
dagger throwing to Pam, or GS to Pam 3-4 attacks
thrown dagger, but if you dont like throwing, use GS, difference is -4
note, using divine smite level 2 or higher gives you more dps, roughly +5 per level of divine smite used. also note, using divine favor first round gives roughly -2 first round, and +9 after. If you can still cast spirit weapon, that gives you better damage than PAM at level 3 and higher. Point being, 61 is the no resource guy. 70+ is the spell slot user.
ranger xbow master, gwm, charger (will dual wield with xbow and heavy xbow swap)
Round2 previous round+swift quiver (2 bonus attacks with heavy xbow) +(d10+6+5)*2 = 99.5
level 20 wizard blade of disaster
round 1 toll of the dead action, 4d12 BA blade of disaster 4d12(12d12 on crit) x2= 93.6
round 2 whatever spell they want+ blade of disaster. simplicity, lets say scorching ray slot 4 10d6+67.8 = 102.8
i could go on with other classes, but it doesnt really change much. Mostly because casters have powerful spells, and martials have on hit bonuses, multiple attacks, and way better feat synergy.
so yeah 75 is +50% damage over rogue's 50 damage. ( 75/50= 1.5)
so yeah, they are 50% or more behind most classes by 20, and the curve mostly starts to seperate around 6+
note as well that ranger and wizard, who are both ranged classes are not struggling to surpass rogue, and both have excellent OoC potential. And rogue doesnt usually get much out of its subclasses damage wise.
There is no good reason for rogue to be as weak as it is in comparison to other classes. The dex logic does not explain it. (as evidenced by ranger) the ranged logic does not explain it (as evidenced by casters)
50% ahead is not the same thing as 50% behind, by your numbers (which are wrong) fighter is 50% ahead of rogue's (75/50=1.5) but rogue's is 33% behind fighter (50/75=0.66). You claimed Rogue is 50% behind, not that fighter is 50% ahead, these are two different numbers.
Current rules are unclear on if you could switch from greatsword to polearm like you have done here, I'd say no, you can't (but that is a discussion for another thread). Additionally you have put on a bonus action attack for fighter, but not for rogue. You can't optimize the fighter DPS and then not do the same for Rogue to claim these numbers, a shortsword and scimitar does more damage than just a rapier or light crossbow.
Level 20 is a broken level, purposefully so, but you can't ignore accuracy for level 20 since Rogue's level 20 capstone ability is literally built around accuracy. Rogue can choose to make an attack that they missed, which is going to be used to get a sneak attack that they otherwise would not have. Additionally accuracy would favor Rogue since the shortsword gives Vex for the Scimitar to gets advantage, which works even better with with Rogue's capstone.
Overall, you're still making the same mistake of comparing optimal in position damage only, which again makes the fighter look better than it actually is.
Both dex builds and str builds can easily obtain the 17 AC mark. AC is not really a relevant consideration.
Full Plate is 18 AC, which without magic armour, feats or features, you can not get that with light or medium armour. Half-Plate can match it with Medium armour master. To get 17AC with studded, you'd need a DEX modifier of +5, which you can't get before level 8 while full plate usually comes online around level 4. But it is irrelevant overall.
The difference in iniative is generally going to be +1 to + 3, as most people will throw 14 in dex. Just because something isnt your main stat doesnt mean you put zero in it
You'd put 13 in DEX for a Standary Array build, since 15+2 goes into STR and 14+1 into CON, so at level 4 you pickup GWM (+1 STR), PAM (+1 STR), Charger(+1 STR), Speedster/Durable/Heavily Armour(+1 CON) and Resilient(+1 DEX). You'd pick resilient up likely after the +3 STR, so talking level 12. So from 8 to 11, at least, it'll probably be at least +4 to initiative. Of course this assumes going for Resilient DEX, going for WIS is also equally a valid choice which would mean going for another feat for DEX at a later level.
I'm am not optimal on most of these builds, I'm just picking the obvious synergies. optimally on fighter I'd swap more, or use different weapons depending on subclass and playstyle. factor in cleaves, crit synergies, etc. Optimal builds would surpass these numbers.
ahead or behind is just negative or positive, you are more thinking of who the damage is relative to. It doesnt really matter as long as you know what you are comparing. Regardless As you can see most of these other classes are in the 70-80 dpr range, and rogue us in the 45-55 dpr range. The rogue is clearly an outlier, with almost everyone else closely balanced.
and there is no debate about swapping weapons once per round given extra attack.
"You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack.
Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath, picking it up, or retrieving it from a container. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it."
when you make an attack, from the attack action you can equip/unequip. if you make two attacks, you can stow one weapon at the end of one attack and draw another before the other attack. The point of it requiring attack action is you can't do it as part of a BA or Reaction.
you can homebrew the rules if you want but this is the current standard.
Rogue's BA has no mod bonuses, or riders, its just a flat 3.5, and many rogues don't bother, but its not significantly changing the story, you can add it if you want.
I didnt count the rogue 20, because I didnt put any deeper analysis into per SR abilities, but if you want to give them one crit, thats fine. 1 crit every 8 rounds? thats basically 1.3 d6 or about 5 per round. But that also means I should count fighter's action surge for 8.3 per round, and monk stunning strike Ki burns, paladins goin big on smites. it doesnt significantly change the overall point, rogues are noticeably behind the curve on most classes.
And there is no good justification for this. The game isnt improved because of it, its not balanced. (wiz and ranger show its not because if dex or rangedness).
they could probably be ok at 60-68 dpr if you want to give them some Ooc balance, or ranged/dexvwhatever. but the current is not really feasible. Thats too drastic.
Rogue is NOT behind in damage, you're both miscalculating because sneak attack can be added to any attack that hits and most of the time Rogue is making two attacks per turn, this DOUBLES (well almost) the chance to land your sneak attack damage compared to the damage of an ordinary attack. Thus if you account for the probability to land the damage, Rogue deals equal damage to any other martial.
PS comparing at level 20 is pointless because nobody plays at level 20 for more than 1-2 sessions. 99% of gameplay is at levels <20. Not to mention that by level 20 you are definitely going to have Very Rare or better magic items that will totally skew any calculation you are estimating in this impossible level 20, no magic item game. If you want to compare damage for actual play, do it at level 3, level 5, and level 8 as that will represent the majority of actual play.
my calculation was simplified and ignored accuracy, when I do detailed calcs, I would assume either advantage on one attack, or I would calculate sneak attack as the chance to miss per round. It doesnt really matter that much in 2024, because most classes have access to high advantage uptime. And that starts to require a look at subclasses, etc.
Suffice to say it doesnt double anything. your chance to land sneak attack with steady aim is 87.5 your chance to land sneak attack with vex+nick 100-.125*.35=94%. so its a 6% greater chance.
the reasoning of ignoring 12 levels when talking about class design feedback makes no sense. I get that level 5-8 is the most played, but we are asked to comment on the overall class design. There are a number of people who consistently play at higher levels.
Its completely appropriate to say rogue doesnt need a level 3 or level 5 bump. it doesnt make sense to say the whole class is fine because I would never play past level 6.
this stuff doesnt just happen at level 20, the curve starts to depart around 6, and at level 20 we see the final result. but the difference is there, its like 30-50% as you move from 6-20
quick math at 9,
rogue is 7d6+5+4.5.=33.5
monk is 5d8+20+((d8+3)/2)=47
barb is 45.
fighter is 41(no surge)
wizard gets animate objects 65damage (and after first round even more damage)
If you guys want to claim, that being slightly more useful at opening things quietly is worth being 30-50% behind on dps. i disagree, and i will feel sorry for the rogues in the future years complaining that they dont feel like an effective member of the group mid to late game.
And i will say, well, some people did bring it up when it was time to improve and balance the classes, but others said rogue was fine because it shouldnt do effective damage anyway, its main purpose is to be slightly more useful sometimes with very specific skills, well for a martial.
why are people fixated on making a class poor. There is no benefit to rogues being this far beneath the other classes dps without some MAJOR benefit.
If you get SA twice per round most of the time which you should be, they are not "30-50% behind on DPR." Folks whose math I trust far more than yours have shown this to be the case.
Rogue is NOT behind in damage, you're both miscalculating because sneak attack can be added to any attack that hits and most of the time Rogue is making two attacks per turn, this DOUBLES (well almost) the chance to land your sneak attack damage compared to the damage of an ordinary attack. Thus if you account for the probability to land the damage, Rogue deals equal damage to any other martial.
PS comparing at level 20 is pointless because nobody plays at level 20 for more than 1-2 sessions. 99% of gameplay is at levels <20. Not to mention that by level 20 you are definitely going to have Very Rare or better magic items that will totally skew any calculation you are estimating in this impossible level 20, no magic item game. If you want to compare damage for actual play, do it at level 3, level 5, and level 8 as that will represent the majority of actual play.
my calculation was simplified and ignored accuracy, when I do detailed calcs, I would assume either advantage on one attack, or I would calculate sneak attack as the chance to miss per round. It doesnt really matter that much in 2024, because most classes have access to high advantage uptime. And that starts to require a look at subclasses, etc.
Suffice to say it doesnt double anything. your chance to land sneak attack with steady aim is 87.5 your chance to land sneak attack with vex+nick 100-.125*.35=94%. so its a 6% greater chance.
And yet you are using weapons for your Fighter that DO NOT provide free and readily available advantage, this means your comparison is whole invalid by failing to account for accuracy. Using a Greatsword and a Halberd on a Fighter does not give you advantage thus your Fighter has a 65% chance hit so their overall DPR = 0.65*75 = 49, whereas your Rogue can use Vex + Nick for 94% chance to land their damage = 47. So, no the Fighter is not 50% ahead, it is 4% ahead. Sacrificing 4% DPR for basically never failing a skill check that you have proficiency in seems like a fair trade.
Rogue is NOT behind in damage, you're both miscalculating because sneak attack can be added to any attack that hits and most of the time Rogue is making two attacks per turn, this DOUBLES (well almost) the chance to land your sneak attack damage compared to the damage of an ordinary attack. Thus if you account for the probability to land the damage, Rogue deals equal damage to any other martial.
PS comparing at level 20 is pointless because nobody plays at level 20 for more than 1-2 sessions. 99% of gameplay is at levels <20. Not to mention that by level 20 you are definitely going to have Very Rare or better magic items that will totally skew any calculation you are estimating in this impossible level 20, no magic item game. If you want to compare damage for actual play, do it at level 3, level 5, and level 8 as that will represent the majority of actual play.
my calculation was simplified and ignored accuracy, when I do detailed calcs, I would assume either advantage on one attack, or I would calculate sneak attack as the chance to miss per round. It doesnt really matter that much in 2024, because most classes have access to high advantage uptime. And that starts to require a look at subclasses, etc.
Suffice to say it doesnt double anything. your chance to land sneak attack with steady aim is 87.5 your chance to land sneak attack with vex+nick 100-.125*.35=94%. so its a 6% greater chance.
And yet you are using weapons for your Fighter that DO NOT provide free and readily available advantage, this means your comparison is whole invalid by failing to account for accuracy. Using a Greatsword and a Halberd on a Fighter does not give you advantage thus your Fighter has a 65% chance hit so their overall DPR = 0.65*75 = 49, whereas your Rogue can use Vex + Nick for 94% chance to land their damage = 47. So, no the Fighter is not 50% ahead, it is 4% ahead. Sacrificing 4% DPR for basically never failing a skill check that you have proficiency in seems like a fair trade.
you are not thinking of this in terms of 2024 capabilities of classes
first off someone on team is probably giving advantage without trying.
2nd
fighter (and why pick fighter when every class shown is burning rogue) can do this combo using topple weapons (maul+lance) for advantage or graze weapons (GS and glaive) (heck they can change masteries) they can also use other combos such as twf and polearm which features vex nick and +5 mod damage). They also got xbow builds. Fighter will basically have no worries about accuracy.
As for the level 20 analysis, you know fighter gets studied attacks, and thus will never be baseline 65%, even ignoring their masteries. Fighter actually doesn't really even need PAM, its just simpler to show because its always accurate. They can go vex, and given 4-5attacks, the chance of getting a crit(gwm) is 40% the chance of not killing a monster is low. for a champ, its an 80% chance to crit. I wasn't really pushing the limits of these classes. Just picking the obvious stuff.
barbarian has reckless attacks
monk has grappler feat advantage on grapple opponents, poisons, shadows, prones, stuns
wizard is so far ahead the misses on its objects are barely relevant and round two they get to cast and use objects.
paladins have vengeance. + graze+topple.
the ranger has vex, and they likely have archery
the rouge has no big accuracy advantage, its far behind in damage. The reason I simplified some of this is because I already did a more detailed analysis, and its essentially the same thing.
and the rogues skills are not better than wizards ooc spells, not more effective than barbarians primals, they got some benefits over fighter in skills, but nothing drastic.
and lastly, only the 10d6 is getting the multiplier of 94% the 2d6+5 is still either 87.5 or 65% other classes also have similar once per turn benefits that thus have enhanced accuracy
If you guys want to claim, that being slightly more useful at opening things quietly is worth being 30-50% behind on dps. i disagree, and i will feel sorry for the rogues in the future years complaining that they dont feel like an effective member of the group mid to late game.
And i will say, well, some people did bring it up when it was time to improve and balance the classes, but others said rogue was fine because it shouldnt do effective damage anyway, its main purpose is to be slightly more useful sometimes with very specific skills, well for a martial.
why are people fixated on making a class poor. There is no benefit to rogues being this far beneath the other classes dps without some MAJOR benefit.
DEX based builds need to do less damage than STR based builds, since STR based builds suck at ranged damage and have a lower initiative, this can often lead to a Rogue having a full turn more than a STR based fighter or paladin and a Rogue can still ranged attack pretty decently, even if normally using a melee finesse weapon. Also at no point is rogue 50% behind.
Strength gives melee and thrown weapon damage, heavy armour requirement, strength saves (which is a minor save) and athletics
Dexterity gives finesse and ranged weapon damage, +AC to no armor, light armor and +2/+3 max AC to medium armor, +initiative, dexterity saving throws (which is a major save), Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth.
Comparing a rogue, which can melee or ranged attack against a STR build fighter or paladin is going to make rogue look weak if you assume that fighter or paladin is always in position.
Now I could see an argument for Rogue to get extra attack, but rogue would have to lose other features to compensate and crossbows might need a bit of redesign.
Both dex builds and str builds can easily obtain the 17 AC mark. AC is not really a relevant consideration. This is not about melee versus ranged, if they want to make ranged or melee do more damage, that should be related to the weapons and the features, not the class. IE if they want to give rougue + damage in melee, thats perfectly legit, or maybe the off turn enable skill only works for melee. The dps numbers that are low for rogue are virtually the same melee, or range.
The difference in iniative is generally going to be +1 to + 3, as most people will throw 14 in dex. Just because something isnt your main stat doesnt mean you put zero in it. Also barbarian gets advantage to initiative. Champion gets advantage to initative, the Alert feat allows you to swap initiative and is a level zero feat. Monk uses dex, and does better damage, ranger can use dex and do better damage. A bonus on iniative does not justify lower damage, and its of questionable value anyway. There are effects which could be worse or better depending on going after an enemy, or ally.
simple no frills builds lets ignore accuracy for simplicity and crits for simplicity, this doesnt always favor rogue.
level 20 rogue 10d6+d8+6 +4.5 charger = 50 dpr
fighter level 20 gwf, gwm, charger, pam
greatsword to pam 5 attacks
(6d6+d10+d4)gwf+30+6(gwm)+4.5(charger) = 74.7dpr
not even calculating action surge
Barbarian level 20 gwm pam charger
dagger throwing to Pam, or GS to Pam 3-4 attacks
thrown dagger, but if you dont like throwing, use GS, difference is -4
note, using divine smite level 2 or higher gives you more dps, roughly +5 per level of divine smite used. also note, using divine favor first round gives roughly -2 first round, and +9 after. If you can still cast spirit weapon, that gives you better damage than PAM at level 3 and higher. Point being, 61 is the no resource guy. 70+ is the spell slot user.
ranger xbow master, gwm, charger (will dual wield with xbow and heavy xbow swap)
Round2 previous round+swift quiver (2 bonus attacks with heavy xbow) +(d10+6+5)*2 = 99.5
level 20 wizard blade of disaster
round 1 toll of the dead action, 4d12 BA blade of disaster 4d12(12d12 on crit) x2= 93.6
round 2 whatever spell they want+ blade of disaster. simplicity, lets say scorching ray slot 4 10d6+67.8 = 102.8
i could go on with other classes, but it doesnt really change much. Mostly because casters have powerful spells, and martials have on hit bonuses, multiple attacks, and way better feat synergy.
so yeah 75 is +50% damage over rogue's 50 damage. ( 75/50= 1.5)
so yeah, they are 50% or more behind most classes by 20, and the curve mostly starts to seperate around 6+
note as well that ranger and wizard, who are both ranged classes are not struggling to surpass rogue, and both have excellent OoC potential. And rogue doesnt usually get much out of its subclasses damage wise.
There is no good reason for rogue to be as weak as it is in comparison to other classes. The dex logic does not explain it. (as evidenced by ranger) the ranged logic does not explain it (as evidenced by casters)
50% ahead is not the same thing as 50% behind, by your numbers (which are wrong) fighter is 50% ahead of rogue's (75/50=1.5) but rogue's is 33% behind fighter (50/75=0.66). You claimed Rogue is 50% behind, not that fighter is 50% ahead, these are two different numbers.
Current rules are unclear on if you could switch from greatsword to polearm like you have done here, I'd say no, you can't (but that is a discussion for another thread). Additionally you have put on a bonus action attack for fighter, but not for rogue. You can't optimize the fighter DPS and then not do the same for Rogue to claim these numbers, a shortsword and scimitar does more damage than just a rapier or light crossbow.
Level 20 is a broken level, purposefully so, but you can't ignore accuracy for level 20 since Rogue's level 20 capstone ability is literally built around accuracy. Rogue can choose to make an attack that they missed, which is going to be used to get a sneak attack that they otherwise would not have. Additionally accuracy would favor Rogue since the shortsword gives Vex for the Scimitar to gets advantage, which works even better with with Rogue's capstone.
Overall, you're still making the same mistake of comparing optimal in position damage only, which again makes the fighter look better than it actually is.
Both dex builds and str builds can easily obtain the 17 AC mark. AC is not really a relevant consideration.
Full Plate is 18 AC, which without magic armour, feats or features, you can not get that with light or medium armour. Half-Plate can match it with Medium armour master. To get 17AC with studded, you'd need a DEX modifier of +5, which you can't get before level 8 while full plate usually comes online around level 4. But it is irrelevant overall.
The difference in iniative is generally going to be +1 to + 3, as most people will throw 14 in dex. Just because something isnt your main stat doesnt mean you put zero in it
You'd put 13 in DEX for a Standary Array build, since 15+2 goes into STR and 14+1 into CON, so at level 4 you pickup GWM (+1 STR), PAM (+1 STR), Charger(+1 STR), Speedster/Durable/Heavily Armour(+1 CON) and Resilient(+1 DEX). You'd pick resilient up likely after the +3 STR, so talking level 12. So from 8 to 11, at least, it'll probably be at least +4 to initiative. Of course this assumes going for Resilient DEX, going for WIS is also equally a valid choice which would mean going for another feat for DEX at a later level.
I'm am not optimal on most of these builds, I'm just picking the obvious synergies. optimally on fighter I'd swap more, or use different weapons depending on subclass and playstyle. factor in cleaves, crit synergies, etc. Optimal builds would surpass these numbers.
ahead or behind is just negative or positive, you are more thinking of who the damage is relative to. It doesnt really matter as long as you know what you are comparing. Regardless As you can see most of these other classes are in the 70-80 dpr range, and rogue us in the 45-55 dpr range. The rogue is clearly an outlier, with almost everyone else closely balanced.
and there is no debate about swapping weapons once per round given extra attack.
"You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack.
Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath, picking it up, or retrieving it from a container. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it."
when you make an attack, from the attack action you can equip/unequip. if you make two attacks, you can stow one weapon at the end of one attack and draw another before the other attack. The point of it requiring attack action is you can't do it as part of a BA or Reaction.
you can homebrew the rules if you want but this is the current standard.
Rogue's BA has no mod bonuses, or riders, its just a flat 3.5, and many rogues don't bother, but its not significantly changing the story, you can add it if you want.
I didnt count the rogue 20, because I didnt put any deeper analysis into per SR abilities, but if you want to give them one crit, thats fine. 1 crit every 8 rounds? thats basically 1.3 d6 or about 5 per round. But that also means I should count fighter's action surge for 8.3 per round, and monk stunning strike Ki burns, paladins goin big on smites. it doesnt significantly change the overall point, rogues are noticeably behind the curve on most classes.
And there is no good justification for this. The game isnt improved because of it, its not balanced. (wiz and ranger show its not because if dex or rangedness).
they could probably be ok at 60-68 dpr if you want to give them some Ooc balance, or ranged/dexvwhatever. but the current is not really feasible. Thats too drastic.
You're doing a weapon swap, which is more than you're doing for Rogue with TWF, which is much more likely than weapon swapping from Greatsword to Halberd like your maths for Fighter, if you've going to use a BA for fighter and not for Rogue, it's showing you're not doing reliable figures, but then we already know that since you're discarding accuracy which MASSIVELY favours Rogue given the usage of Vex weapons and the level 20 ability to convert a miss into a critical hit.... so yea.
Rogue is NOT behind in damage, you're both miscalculating because sneak attack can be added to any attack that hits and most of the time Rogue is making two attacks per turn, this DOUBLES (well almost) the chance to land your sneak attack damage compared to the damage of an ordinary attack. Thus if you account for the probability to land the damage, Rogue deals equal damage to any other martial.
PS comparing at level 20 is pointless because nobody plays at level 20 for more than 1-2 sessions. 99% of gameplay is at levels <20. Not to mention that by level 20 you are definitely going to have Very Rare or better magic items that will totally skew any calculation you are estimating in this impossible level 20, no magic item game. If you want to compare damage for actual play, do it at level 3, level 5, and level 8 as that will represent the majority of actual play.
my calculation was simplified and ignored accuracy, when I do detailed calcs, I would assume either advantage on one attack, or I would calculate sneak attack as the chance to miss per round. It doesnt really matter that much in 2024, because most classes have access to high advantage uptime. And that starts to require a look at subclasses, etc.
Suffice to say it doesnt double anything. your chance to land sneak attack with steady aim is 87.5 your chance to land sneak attack with vex+nick 100-.125*.35=94%. so its a 6% greater chance.
And yet you are using weapons for your Fighter that DO NOT provide free and readily available advantage, this means your comparison is whole invalid by failing to account for accuracy. Using a Greatsword and a Halberd on a Fighter does not give you advantage thus your Fighter has a 65% chance hit so their overall DPR = 0.65*75 = 49, whereas your Rogue can use Vex + Nick for 94% chance to land their damage = 47. So, no the Fighter is not 50% ahead, it is 4% ahead. Sacrificing 4% DPR for basically never failing a skill check that you have proficiency in seems like a fair trade.
you are not thinking of this in terms of 2024 capabilities of classes
first off someone on team is probably giving advantage without trying.
2nd
fighter (and why pick fighter when every class shown is burning rogue) can do this combo using topple weapons (maul+lance) for advantage or graze weapons (GS and glaive) (heck they can change masteries) they can also use other combos such as twf and polearm which features vex nick and +5 mod damage). They also got xbow builds. Fighter will basically have no worries about accuracy.
As for the level 20 analysis, you know fighter gets studied attacks, and thus will never be baseline 65%, even ignoring their masteries. Fighter actually doesn't really even need PAM, its just simpler to show because its always accurate. They can go vex, and given 4-5attacks, the chance of getting a crit(gwm) is 40% the chance of not killing a monster is low. for a champ, its an 80% chance to crit. I wasn't really pushing the limits of these classes. Just picking the obvious stuff.
barbarian has reckless attacks
monk has grappler feat advantage on grapple opponents, poisons, shadows, prones, stuns
wizard is so far ahead the misses on its objects are barely relevant and round two they get to cast and use objects.
paladins have vengeance. + graze+topple.
the ranger has vex, and they likely have archery
the rouge has no big accuracy advantage, its far behind in damage. The reason I simplified some of this is because I already did a more detailed analysis, and its essentially the same thing.
and the rogues skills are not better than wizards ooc spells, not more effective than barbarians primals, they got some benefits over fighter in skills, but nothing drastic.
and lastly, only the 10d6 is getting the multiplier of 94% the 2d6+5 is still either 87.5 or 65% other classes also have similar once per turn benefits that thus have enhanced accuracy
Even with Studied Attacks, fighter is not reaching anything like the 94% chance to apply sneak attack damage, so sneak attack damage, which is the bulk of rogue's damage... you're getting far closer to 100% conversion.
Ranger damage sucks tier 3/4, Barbarian Tier 3/4 sucks (Tier 1&2 sure), needs specific subclasses to be good, Paladin gets Radiant Strike, Channel Divinity and Spirit Shroud, so they can potentially out-do fighter in ideal conditions but they are the absolute worst at ranged damage, Only get proficiency in weapons and literally nothing beyond that.
Overall, I don't think you've demonstrated any reason why Rogue needs more damage, fighter is a class that literally has nothing outside of fighting, it does not pick locks like a rogue, it does not heal like a cleric, it does not cast spells like a wizard. Rogue is an expert class, it's not dedicated to fighting like fighter, it's a stealthy role that scouts and perceives serving multiple important roles in a dungeon, a rogue failing in a dungeon can be worse than a fighter and yet you want more; it'll be at a point where you don't need anything but rogues and it's nonsense. Rogue is and will remain one of the most popular classes in D&D usually 2nd behind fighter. I simply do not see a good justification, no matter what numbers or arguments that you contrieve, that Rogue needs more than it has. Rogue is in a good place right now and pretty certain that WotC know this already.
Rogue is NOT behind in damage, you're both miscalculating because sneak attack can be added to any attack that hits and most of the time Rogue is making two attacks per turn, this DOUBLES (well almost) the chance to land your sneak attack damage compared to the damage of an ordinary attack. Thus if you account for the probability to land the damage, Rogue deals equal damage to any other martial.
PS comparing at level 20 is pointless because nobody plays at level 20 for more than 1-2 sessions. 99% of gameplay is at levels <20. Not to mention that by level 20 you are definitely going to have Very Rare or better magic items that will totally skew any calculation you are estimating in this impossible level 20, no magic item game. If you want to compare damage for actual play, do it at level 3, level 5, and level 8 as that will represent the majority of actual play.
my calculation was simplified and ignored accuracy, when I do detailed calcs, I would assume either advantage on one attack, or I would calculate sneak attack as the chance to miss per round. It doesnt really matter that much in 2024, because most classes have access to high advantage uptime. And that starts to require a look at subclasses, etc.
Suffice to say it doesnt double anything. your chance to land sneak attack with steady aim is 87.5 your chance to land sneak attack with vex+nick 100-.125*.35=94%. so its a 6% greater chance.
And yet you are using weapons for your Fighter that DO NOT provide free and readily available advantage, this means your comparison is whole invalid by failing to account for accuracy. Using a Greatsword and a Halberd on a Fighter does not give you advantage thus your Fighter has a 65% chance hit so their overall DPR = 0.65*75 = 49, whereas your Rogue can use Vex + Nick for 94% chance to land their damage = 47. So, no the Fighter is not 50% ahead, it is 4% ahead. Sacrificing 4% DPR for basically never failing a skill check that you have proficiency in seems like a fair trade.
you are not thinking of this in terms of 2024 capabilities of classes
I absolutely am, Vex isn't guaranteed advantage it is 65% chance of your next attack being at advantage (so increases your DPR by ~15% when making 2 attacks per turn and less if you are making more attacks with different weapons - though this is ignoring that Vex weapons deal less damage than non-Vex weapons so actually the difference is closer to 10% since you are losing 1d6 damage on the first attack), Topple requires you to hit and then the enemy to fail a save so works out to ~30% chance of advantage on subsequent attacks (so increases your DPR by ~5%). Topple also doesn't work on any enemies that are bigger than Large which is probably at least 50% of the enemies you are fighting at level 20. How is "someone else providing advantage"? Are you now assuming that every party has 2 STR-based martials using Topple-based weapons and we are only considering the second one of those that acts in combat? Or are you assuming the Druid is still using their concentration for Faerie Fire at level 20?
In contrast a Rogue adds +35% damage by making a second attack or getting Adv thanks to how sneak attack works.
Only Barbarian gets guaranteed advantage like Rogue, and they have a significant cost to that as all enemies will have Adv on them meaning their survivability will be pretty mediocre, so that leaves Rogue essentially equal in DPR to the majority of martials with only Barbarian as an outlier above them. [Note that since the UA is changing "magical bludge/slash/pierc" into force damage a Barbarian's resistances are going to be pretty useless at level 20]
Since for the bulk of the game all martials only have 1-2 attacks most of your combos don't work regardless of how your DM interprets the rules. Relying on stacking 4 different weapon masteries onto 5 attacks per round is not realistic.
[Not to mention that if your Rogue takes Sentinel instead of Charger they can almost double their DPR].
Rogue is NOT behind in damage, you're both miscalculating because sneak attack can be added to any attack that hits and most of the time Rogue is making two attacks per turn, this DOUBLES (well almost) the chance to land your sneak attack damage compared to the damage of an ordinary attack. Thus if you account for the probability to land the damage, Rogue deals equal damage to any other martial.
PS comparing at level 20 is pointless because nobody plays at level 20 for more than 1-2 sessions. 99% of gameplay is at levels <20. Not to mention that by level 20 you are definitely going to have Very Rare or better magic items that will totally skew any calculation you are estimating in this impossible level 20, no magic item game. If you want to compare damage for actual play, do it at level 3, level 5, and level 8 as that will represent the majority of actual play.
my calculation was simplified and ignored accuracy, when I do detailed calcs, I would assume either advantage on one attack, or I would calculate sneak attack as the chance to miss per round. It doesnt really matter that much in 2024, because most classes have access to high advantage uptime. And that starts to require a look at subclasses, etc.
Suffice to say it doesnt double anything. your chance to land sneak attack with steady aim is 87.5 your chance to land sneak attack with vex+nick 100-.125*.35=94%. so its a 6% greater chance.
And yet you are using weapons for your Fighter that DO NOT provide free and readily available advantage, this means your comparison is whole invalid by failing to account for accuracy. Using a Greatsword and a Halberd on a Fighter does not give you advantage thus your Fighter has a 65% chance hit so their overall DPR = 0.65*75 = 49, whereas your Rogue can use Vex + Nick for 94% chance to land their damage = 47. So, no the Fighter is not 50% ahead, it is 4% ahead. Sacrificing 4% DPR for basically never failing a skill check that you have proficiency in seems like a fair trade.
you are not thinking of this in terms of 2024 capabilities of classes
I absolutely am, Vex isn't guaranteed advantage it is 65% chance of your next attack being at advantage (so increases your DPR by ~15% when making 2 attacks per turn and less if you are making more attacks with different weapons - though this is ignoring that Vex weapons deal less damage than non-Vex weapons so actually the difference is closer to 10% since you are losing 1d6 damage on the first attack), Topple requires you to hit and then the enemy to fail a save so works out to ~30% chance of advantage on subsequent attacks (so increases your DPR by ~5%). Topple also doesn't work on any enemies that are bigger than Large which is probably at least 50% of the enemies you are fighting at level 20. How is "someone else providing advantage"? Are you now assuming that every party has 2 STR-based martials using Topple-based weapons and we are only considering the second one of those that acts in combat? Or are you assuming the Druid is still using their concentration for Faerie Fire at level 20?
In contrast a Rogue adds +35% damage by making a second attack or getting Adv thanks to how sneak attack works.
Only Barbarian gets guaranteed advantage like Rogue, and they have a significant cost to that as all enemies will have Adv on them meaning their survivability will be pretty mediocre, so that leaves Rogue essentially equal in DPR to the majority of martials with only Barbarian as an outlier above them. [Note that since the UA is changing "magical bludge/slash/pierc" into force damage a Barbarian's resistances are going to be pretty useless at level 20]
Since for the bulk of the game all martials only have 1-2 attacks most of your combos don't work regardless of how your DM interprets the rules. Relying on stacking 4 different weapon masteries onto 5 attacks per round is not realistic.
[Not to mention that if your Rogue takes Sentinel instead of Charger they can almost double their DPR].
the rogue doesnt have 100% advantage either, its depending on hide, or vex or steady aim(which means they probably only are using one attack)
and btw vex averages out to .84 acc from .65 for future reference.
graze doesnt need advantage. fighters don't have to commit to one thing, they can decide based on the enemy. (they have 6 masteries) swapping from GS to Glaive is one swap and fighter has 4 attacks baseline, they can swap more than other classes, if they desire to, for other reasons. (like a cleave, or a topple desire)
throwing weapons don't need to be unequipped, keep that in mind for all classes.
heres the math, Graze basic GS/GL fighter 65.5dpr. their base accuracy is about .73 due to studied attacks. you don't multiply their whole damage by .73, because GWM only needs 1 to land, Mod damage always happens and charger can be attempted per hit. I think topple will likely always be on, but you don't need to guesstimate with graze. 65dpr assumes no other source of advantage.
(8.3*3+6.3+3)*.73+5*6(mod)+6(gwm)+5.1(charger with gwf)
do you realize both monk, and barbarian are +2attack from capstone? grappler feat auto grapples on hit currently. this means the barb is .94accuracy, the monk is around 87 considering grapple.
Ranger can use vex and has +2 from archery. or higher than 91%
wizard laughs at everybody, they can literally hold monster round 2 for guaranteed crits for the whole team, including their blades of disaster (which gets 12d12 per crit) or animate objects earlier.
paladin can also use graze, or topple, other sources.
advantage is now a part of many subclasses, team plays. its very likely to be there. this accuracy advantage you imagine isnt significantly changing the facts, rogue is significantly behind.
You really want the average rogue to take sentinel? with the worst melee survivability in the game? The feat that encourages monsters to attack you instead of the other guy and requires you to be within 5feet of them and negates your cunning action and hide? If they are expected to do off turn attacks, thats fine, but then give them a feat or feature that makes sense with how the class is meant to be played, that most rogues would access. That would be a feasible solution as many in the thread suggested.
note that both ranger, and wizard, who provide signifigant OoC utility from range surpass the non out of turn rogue
How many times do I need to say this? Play at level 20 almost never happens so Capstones are irrelevant to the overall playability of the class. Plus when it does your character is head-to-toe in magic items so talking about magic-item-less DPR is utterly meaningless. A wizard or sorcerer can do infinite damage using Wish at level 17 so what are you even talking about with estimating their DPR from Blade of Disaster - Blade of Disaster sucks for a 9th level spell and nobody is going to us it - and why are you even trying to compare martial damage to them? Again nobody plays at these levels b/c full casters are totally broken. Even at 13th level Forcecage can just auto-defeat any enemy without teleportation (which is most of them) in a single action with no save, which is why most published adventures (and videogames) end at level 12 (or earlier).
How many times do I need to say this? Play at level 20 almost never happens so Capstones are irrelevant to the overall playability of the class. Plus when it does your character is head-to-toe in magic items so talking about magic-item-less DPR is utterly meaningless. A wizard or sorcerer can do infinite damage using Wish at level 17 so what are you even talking about with estimating their DPR from Blade of Disaster - Blade of Disaster sucks for a 9th level spell and nobody is going to us it - and why are you even trying to compare martial damage to them? Again nobody plays at these levels b/c full casters are totally broken. Even at 13th level Forcecage can just auto-defeat any enemy without teleportation (which is most of them) in a single action with no save, which is why most published adventures (and videogames) end at level 12 (or earlier).
If you want to say ignore 20, I disagree but whatevs, but if you want to ignore everything from 12 on, or as earlier from level 8 on. You really aren't evaluating the classes as presented. If you also plan to ignore what casters are capable of, and say thats irrelevant when discussing class design or balance, thats even less of the game design that you are engaging with.
if the question is, are rogues ok from 5-8? answer is ehhh not really. but low level, the gap hasn't widened much, but also the benefits aren't really there either. (skill monkeyness)
level 6 rogue, dpr including accuracy=18.8. maybe 23 if you take charger. +6 to its (4)expert skills Damage focused sub adds +5 per encounter, assuming 4 rounds, thats +1.2=24.2
level 6 barb dpr including accuracy =31.6 with Pam +throwing. +6.5 to its (4-5)proficient primal skills while rage. Damage focused sub gives +2d6 per round thats 38.6
level 6 fighter dpr including accuracy, 28(30.1 with surge every 8) pam+charger +3 to (4-5)proficient saves+5.5 to failed saves(tactical minds) =+8.5. Damage focused sub gives +4.5 per round thats 32.5(34.5 with surge)
level 6 monk dpr including accuracy, 30.6 charger +3 to (4-5) proficient skills. damage focused sub adds 7 =37.6
level 6 ranger 24 dpr including accuracy, +6 to (2)expert skills, +9.5 with enhance ability 6.5 to proficient skills. damage focused sub 32 damage per round.
so yes, rogue is always struggling, and low level its skill bonus isn't actually very impressive.
the only class its really giving more Ooc potential than is monk. but its damage potential is noticeably lower.
and the damage gap grows around 9-11 and again 14-17
level 6 rogue, dpr including accuracy=18.8. maybe 23 if you take charger. +6 to its (4)expert skills Damage focused sub adds +5 per encounter, assuming 4 rounds, thats +1.2=24.2
level 6 barb dpr including accuracy =31.6 with Pam +throwing. +6.5 to its (4-5)proficient primal skills while rage. Damage focused sub gives +2d6 per round thats 38.6
Find Familiar gives you advantage in 5e with help action, less clear in oneD&D. Still good for scouting and utility with Owl or Tressym.
Silvery Barbs is just broken for rogue, you can force a creature to reroll a successful attack roll or saving throw and then give yourself advantage from it.... that definitely ain't broken... P.S. works on critical hits against your friendly neighbourhood tank....
Silent Image, mostly for stealth and deception but there is some battlefield utility for this, since you can use your own image to give yourself total cover, which is... really good. The target creature has to spend an action to discern that the image is an illusion too, so can waste a target's action.
2nd level: Shadow Blade and another spell of choice
Shadow Blade: 2d8+Dex psychic damage on a thrown weapon which has advantage if the target is in dim light or darkness (their perception does not prevent anything), you have proficiency and has the light property, even if this lacks a weapon mastery, it's better than a +1/+2 rapier in most situations.
At level 7, this Arcane Trickster can potentially be putting out
Normal hit ( 2d8 + 1d8 + 4d6 ) * 0.65 + DEXmod * 0.6 = 20.275
if target moves, 2d8*0.6, 25.675, and with charger, 28.6
if target moves, 36.70125, and then with charger 40.92
This build makes Eldritch Adapt, to pick up devil's sight, very tempting. It's partially situational, but any time you're in dim light or darkness it's beating the barbarian. If you're not, then you're gunna switch back to a rapier and use silvery barbs to keep DPS up. If you use charger for damage or push is another question, Barbarian is generally not going to use reckless attack every turn in actual game play, taking on that amount of disadvantage is usually not a good idea.
not going to go over your Barbarian numbers, I think you've slightly low-balled them too to be honest but the damage between Rogue and Barbarian here is far far closer than you're thinking. Theoretically Barbarian does more but in actual play, the Rogue is going to do more, most of the time since they aren't taking on disadvantage to get advantage.
Of course a lot of this stuff does require going outside of the PHB, but this is stuff a lot of groups will play with since it's a PHB replacement and not a full new edition.
level 6 rogue, dpr including accuracy=18.8. maybe 23 if you take charger. +6 to its (4)expert skills Damage focused sub adds +5 per encounter, assuming 4 rounds, thats +1.2=24.2
level 6 barb dpr including accuracy =31.6 with Pam +throwing. +6.5 to its (4-5)proficient primal skills while rage. Damage focused sub gives +2d6 per round thats 38.6
Find Familiar gives you advantage in 5e with help action, less clear in oneD&D. Still good for scouting and utility with Owl or Tressym.
Silvery Barbs is just broken for rogue, you can force a creature to reroll a successful attack roll or saving throw and then give yourself advantage from it.... that definitely ain't broken... P.S. works on critical hits against your friendly neighbourhood tank....
Silent Image, mostly for stealth and deception but there is some battlefield utility for this, since you can use your own image to give yourself total cover, which is... really good. The target creature has to spend an action to discern that the image is an illusion too, so can waste a target's action.
2nd level: Shadow Blade and another spell of choice
Shadow Blade: 2d8+Dex psychic damage on a thrown weapon which has advantage if the target is in dim light or darkness (their perception does not prevent anything), you have proficiency and has the light property, even if this lacks a weapon mastery, it's better than a +1/+2 rapier in most situations.
At level 7, this Arcane Trickster can potentially be putting out
Normal hit ( 2d8 + 1d8 + 4d6 ) * 0.65 + DEXmod * 0.6 = 20.275
if target moves, 2d8*0.6, 25.675, and with charger, 28.6
if target moves, 36.70125, and then with charger 40.92
This build makes Eldritch Adapt, to pick up devil's sight, very tempting. It's partially situational, but any time you're in dim light or darkness it's beating the barbarian. If you're not, then you're gunna switch back to a rapier and use silvery barbs to keep DPS up. If you use charger for damage or push is another question, Barbarian is generally not going to use reckless attack every turn in actual game play, taking on that amount of disadvantage is usually not a good idea.
not going to go over your Barbarian numbers, I think you've slightly low-balled them too to be honest but the damage between Rogue and Barbarian here is far far closer than you're thinking. Theoretically Barbarian does more but in actual play, the Rogue is going to do more, most of the time since they aren't taking on disadvantage to get advantage.
Of course a lot of this stuff does require going outside of the PHB, but this is stuff a lot of groups will play with since it's a PHB replacement and not a full new edition.
arcane trickster might be OK. but nothing else is. So either the other subclasses need something or the main class needs something.
I think a point I made earlier, is without off turn tricks, the class is lacking, and in its current form most players will not get access to off turn hijinks.
A solution might be a feat or feature that makes off turn attacks more mainstream for the class.
but also I would have to add off turn possibilities to every class analysis.
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Getting through a lock unobtrusively is not solely the province of a heist. It's an inherently desirable quality to trespassing somewhere you don't belong, which comprise the vast majority of places/containers that you'd be locked out of in the first place.
If you guys want to claim, that being slightly more useful at opening things quietly is worth being 30-50% behind on dps. i disagree, and i will feel sorry for the rogues in the future years complaining that they dont feel like an effective member of the group mid to late game.
And i will say, well, some people did bring it up when it was time to improve and balance the classes, but others said rogue was fine because it shouldnt do effective damage anyway, its main purpose is to be slightly more useful sometimes with very specific skills, well for a martial.
why are people fixated on making a class poor. There is no benefit to rogues being this far beneath the other classes dps without some MAJOR benefit.
Yeah. Sure. OK.
Trivially easy to fix.
There. Commander's strike and ready-end-of-turn-haste-daftness is now explicitly out, shanking someone in the liver when they run away is in.
DEX based builds need to do less damage than STR based builds, since STR based builds suck at ranged damage and have a lower initiative, this can often lead to a Rogue having a full turn more than a STR based fighter or paladin and a Rogue can still ranged attack pretty decently, even if normally using a melee finesse weapon. Also at no point is rogue 50% behind.
Strength gives melee and thrown weapon damage, heavy armour requirement, strength saves (which is a minor save) and athletics
Dexterity gives finesse and ranged weapon damage, +AC to no armor, light armor and +2/+3 max AC to medium armor, +initiative, dexterity saving throws (which is a major save), Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand and Stealth.
Comparing a rogue, which can melee or ranged attack against a STR build fighter or paladin is going to make rogue look weak if you assume that fighter or paladin is always in position.
Now I could see an argument for Rogue to get extra attack, but rogue would have to lose other features to compensate and crossbows might need a bit of redesign.
Both dex builds and str builds can easily obtain the 17 AC mark. AC is not really a relevant consideration. This is not about melee versus ranged, if they want to make ranged or melee do more damage, that should be related to the weapons and the features, not the class. IE if they want to give rougue + damage in melee, thats perfectly legit, or maybe the off turn enable skill only works for melee. The dps numbers that are low for rogue are virtually the same melee, or range.
The difference in iniative is generally going to be +1 to + 3, as most people will throw 14 in dex. Just because something isnt your main stat doesnt mean you put zero in it. Also barbarian gets advantage to initiative. Champion gets advantage to initative, the Alert feat allows you to swap initiative and is a level zero feat. Monk uses dex, and does better damage, ranger can use dex and do better damage. A bonus on iniative does not justify lower damage, and its of questionable value anyway. There are effects which could be worse or better depending on going after an enemy, or ally.
simple no frills builds lets ignore accuracy for simplicity and crits for simplicity, this doesnt always favor rogue.
i could go on with other classes, but it doesnt really change much. Mostly because casters have powerful spells, and martials have on hit bonuses, multiple attacks, and way better feat synergy.
so yeah 75 is +50% damage over rogue's 50 damage. ( 75/50= 1.5)
so yeah, they are 50% or more behind most classes by 20, and the curve mostly starts to seperate around 6+
note as well that ranger and wizard, who are both ranged classes are not struggling to surpass rogue, and both have excellent OoC potential. And rogue doesnt usually get much out of its subclasses damage wise.
There is no good reason for rogue to be as weak as it is in comparison to other classes. The dex logic does not explain it. (as evidenced by ranger) the ranged logic does not explain it (as evidenced by casters)
50% ahead is not the same thing as 50% behind, by your numbers (which are wrong) fighter is 50% ahead of rogue's (75/50=1.5) but rogue's is 33% behind fighter (50/75=0.66). You claimed Rogue is 50% behind, not that fighter is 50% ahead, these are two different numbers.
Current rules are unclear on if you could switch from greatsword to polearm like you have done here, I'd say no, you can't (but that is a discussion for another thread). Additionally you have put on a bonus action attack for fighter, but not for rogue. You can't optimize the fighter DPS and then not do the same for Rogue to claim these numbers, a shortsword and scimitar does more damage than just a rapier or light crossbow.
Level 20 is a broken level, purposefully so, but you can't ignore accuracy for level 20 since Rogue's level 20 capstone ability is literally built around accuracy. Rogue can choose to make an attack that they missed, which is going to be used to get a sneak attack that they otherwise would not have. Additionally accuracy would favor Rogue since the shortsword gives Vex for the Scimitar to gets advantage, which works even better with with Rogue's capstone.
Overall, you're still making the same mistake of comparing optimal in position damage only, which again makes the fighter look better than it actually is.
Full Plate is 18 AC, which without magic armour, feats or features, you can not get that with light or medium armour. Half-Plate can match it with Medium armour master. To get 17AC with studded, you'd need a DEX modifier of +5, which you can't get before level 8 while full plate usually comes online around level 4. But it is irrelevant overall.
You'd put 13 in DEX for a Standary Array build, since 15+2 goes into STR and 14+1 into CON, so at level 4 you pickup GWM (+1 STR), PAM (+1 STR), Charger(+1 STR), Speedster/Durable/Heavily Armour(+1 CON) and Resilient(+1 DEX). You'd pick resilient up likely after the +3 STR, so talking level 12. So from 8 to 11, at least, it'll probably be at least +4 to initiative. Of course this assumes going for Resilient DEX, going for WIS is also equally a valid choice which would mean going for another feat for DEX at a later level.
Rogue is NOT behind in damage, you're both miscalculating because sneak attack can be added to any attack that hits and most of the time Rogue is making two attacks per turn, this DOUBLES (well almost) the chance to land your sneak attack damage compared to the damage of an ordinary attack. Thus if you account for the probability to land the damage, Rogue deals equal damage to any other martial.
PS comparing at level 20 is pointless because nobody plays at level 20 for more than 1-2 sessions. 99% of gameplay is at levels <20. Not to mention that by level 20 you are definitely going to have Very Rare or better magic items that will totally skew any calculation you are estimating in this impossible level 20, no magic item game. If you want to compare damage for actual play, do it at level 3, level 5, and level 8 as that will represent the majority of actual play.
I'm am not optimal on most of these builds, I'm just picking the obvious synergies. optimally on fighter I'd swap more, or use different weapons depending on subclass and playstyle. factor in cleaves, crit synergies, etc. Optimal builds would surpass these numbers.
ahead or behind is just negative or positive, you are more thinking of who the damage is relative to. It doesnt really matter as long as you know what you are comparing. Regardless As you can see most of these other classes are in the 70-80 dpr range, and rogue us in the 45-55 dpr range. The rogue is clearly an outlier, with almost everyone else closely balanced.
and there is no debate about swapping weapons once per round given extra attack.
when you make an attack, from the attack action you can equip/unequip. if you make two attacks, you can stow one weapon at the end of one attack and draw another before the other attack. The point of it requiring attack action is you can't do it as part of a BA or Reaction.
you can homebrew the rules if you want but this is the current standard.
Rogue's BA has no mod bonuses, or riders, its just a flat 3.5, and many rogues don't bother, but its not significantly changing the story, you can add it if you want.
I didnt count the rogue 20, because I didnt put any deeper analysis into per SR abilities, but if you want to give them one crit, thats fine. 1 crit every 8 rounds? thats basically 1.3 d6 or about 5 per round. But that also means I should count fighter's action surge for 8.3 per round, and monk stunning strike Ki burns, paladins goin big on smites. it doesnt significantly change the overall point, rogues are noticeably behind the curve on most classes.
And there is no good justification for this. The game isnt improved because of it, its not balanced. (wiz and ranger show its not because if dex or rangedness).
they could probably be ok at 60-68 dpr if you want to give them some Ooc balance, or ranged/dexvwhatever. but the current is not really feasible. Thats too drastic.
my calculation was simplified and ignored accuracy, when I do detailed calcs, I would assume either advantage on one attack, or I would calculate sneak attack as the chance to miss per round. It doesnt really matter that much in 2024, because most classes have access to high advantage uptime. And that starts to require a look at subclasses, etc.
Suffice to say it doesnt double anything. your chance to land sneak attack with steady aim is 87.5 your chance to land sneak attack with vex+nick 100-.125*.35=94%. so its a 6% greater chance.
the reasoning of ignoring 12 levels when talking about class design feedback makes no sense. I get that level 5-8 is the most played, but we are asked to comment on the overall class design. There are a number of people who consistently play at higher levels.
Its completely appropriate to say rogue doesnt need a level 3 or level 5 bump. it doesnt make sense to say the whole class is fine because I would never play past level 6.
this stuff doesnt just happen at level 20, the curve starts to depart around 6, and at level 20 we see the final result. but the difference is there, its like 30-50% as you move from 6-20
quick math at 9,
rogue is 7d6+5+4.5.=33.5
monk is 5d8+20+((d8+3)/2)=47
barb is 45.
fighter is 41(no surge)
wizard gets animate objects 65damage (and after first round even more damage)
this isn't just a level 20 issue.
If you get SA twice per round most of the time which you should be, they are not "30-50% behind on DPR." Folks whose math I trust far more than yours have shown this to be the case.
And yet you are using weapons for your Fighter that DO NOT provide free and readily available advantage, this means your comparison is whole invalid by failing to account for accuracy. Using a Greatsword and a Halberd on a Fighter does not give you advantage thus your Fighter has a 65% chance hit so their overall DPR = 0.65*75 = 49, whereas your Rogue can use Vex + Nick for 94% chance to land their damage = 47. So, no the Fighter is not 50% ahead, it is 4% ahead. Sacrificing 4% DPR for basically never failing a skill check that you have proficiency in seems like a fair trade.
you are not thinking of this in terms of 2024 capabilities of classes
first off someone on team is probably giving advantage without trying.
2nd
fighter (and why pick fighter when every class shown is burning rogue) can do this combo using topple weapons (maul+lance) for advantage or graze weapons (GS and glaive) (heck they can change masteries) they can also use other combos such as twf and polearm which features vex nick and +5 mod damage). They also got xbow builds. Fighter will basically have no worries about accuracy.
As for the level 20 analysis, you know fighter gets studied attacks, and thus will never be baseline 65%, even ignoring their masteries. Fighter actually doesn't really even need PAM, its just simpler to show because its always accurate. They can go vex, and given 4-5attacks, the chance of getting a crit(gwm) is 40% the chance of not killing a monster is low. for a champ, its an 80% chance to crit. I wasn't really pushing the limits of these classes. Just picking the obvious stuff.
barbarian has reckless attacks
monk has grappler feat advantage on grapple opponents, poisons, shadows, prones, stuns
wizard is so far ahead the misses on its objects are barely relevant and round two they get to cast and use objects.
paladins have vengeance. + graze+topple.
the ranger has vex, and they likely have archery
the rouge has no big accuracy advantage, its far behind in damage. The reason I simplified some of this is because I already did a more detailed analysis, and its essentially the same thing.
and the rogues skills are not better than wizards ooc spells, not more effective than barbarians primals, they got some benefits over fighter in skills, but nothing drastic.
and lastly, only the 10d6 is getting the multiplier of 94% the 2d6+5 is still either 87.5 or 65% other classes also have similar once per turn benefits that thus have enhanced accuracy
Have you read UA8, literally, there has been a debate around swapping weapons, because of how the attack action was altered in UA8, but again, another thread: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/unearthed-arcana/186324-light-weapon-property-doesnt-actually-require-you I'm saying from my reading of the latest UA, it doesn't work but arguing about that isn't going to get any where, the greatsword -> Halbard to me is not valid.
You're doing a weapon swap, which is more than you're doing for Rogue with TWF, which is much more likely than weapon swapping from Greatsword to Halberd like your maths for Fighter, if you've going to use a BA for fighter and not for Rogue, it's showing you're not doing reliable figures, but then we already know that since you're discarding accuracy which MASSIVELY favours Rogue given the usage of Vex weapons and the level 20 ability to convert a miss into a critical hit.... so yea.
Even with Studied Attacks, fighter is not reaching anything like the 94% chance to apply sneak attack damage, so sneak attack damage, which is the bulk of rogue's damage... you're getting far closer to 100% conversion.
Ranger damage sucks tier 3/4, Barbarian Tier 3/4 sucks (Tier 1&2 sure), needs specific subclasses to be good, Paladin gets Radiant Strike, Channel Divinity and Spirit Shroud, so they can potentially out-do fighter in ideal conditions but they are the absolute worst at ranged damage, Only get proficiency in weapons and literally nothing beyond that.
Overall, I don't think you've demonstrated any reason why Rogue needs more damage, fighter is a class that literally has nothing outside of fighting, it does not pick locks like a rogue, it does not heal like a cleric, it does not cast spells like a wizard. Rogue is an expert class, it's not dedicated to fighting like fighter, it's a stealthy role that scouts and perceives serving multiple important roles in a dungeon, a rogue failing in a dungeon can be worse than a fighter and yet you want more; it'll be at a point where you don't need anything but rogues and it's nonsense. Rogue is and will remain one of the most popular classes in D&D usually 2nd behind fighter. I simply do not see a good justification, no matter what numbers or arguments that you contrieve, that Rogue needs more than it has. Rogue is in a good place right now and pretty certain that WotC know this already.
I absolutely am, Vex isn't guaranteed advantage it is 65% chance of your next attack being at advantage (so increases your DPR by ~15% when making 2 attacks per turn and less if you are making more attacks with different weapons - though this is ignoring that Vex weapons deal less damage than non-Vex weapons so actually the difference is closer to 10% since you are losing 1d6 damage on the first attack), Topple requires you to hit and then the enemy to fail a save so works out to ~30% chance of advantage on subsequent attacks (so increases your DPR by ~5%). Topple also doesn't work on any enemies that are bigger than Large which is probably at least 50% of the enemies you are fighting at level 20. How is "someone else providing advantage"? Are you now assuming that every party has 2 STR-based martials using Topple-based weapons and we are only considering the second one of those that acts in combat? Or are you assuming the Druid is still using their concentration for Faerie Fire at level 20?
In contrast a Rogue adds +35% damage by making a second attack or getting Adv thanks to how sneak attack works.
Only Barbarian gets guaranteed advantage like Rogue, and they have a significant cost to that as all enemies will have Adv on them meaning their survivability will be pretty mediocre, so that leaves Rogue essentially equal in DPR to the majority of martials with only Barbarian as an outlier above them. [Note that since the UA is changing "magical bludge/slash/pierc" into force damage a Barbarian's resistances are going to be pretty useless at level 20]
Since for the bulk of the game all martials only have 1-2 attacks most of your combos don't work regardless of how your DM interprets the rules. Relying on stacking 4 different weapon masteries onto 5 attacks per round is not realistic.
[Not to mention that if your Rogue takes Sentinel instead of Charger they can almost double their DPR].
the rogue doesnt have 100% advantage either, its depending on hide, or vex or steady aim(which means they probably only are using one attack)
and btw vex averages out to .84 acc from .65 for future reference.
graze doesnt need advantage. fighters don't have to commit to one thing, they can decide based on the enemy. (they have 6 masteries) swapping from GS to Glaive is one swap and fighter has 4 attacks baseline, they can swap more than other classes, if they desire to, for other reasons. (like a cleave, or a topple desire)
throwing weapons don't need to be unequipped, keep that in mind for all classes.
heres the math, Graze basic GS/GL fighter 65.5dpr. their base accuracy is about .73 due to studied attacks. you don't multiply their whole damage by .73, because GWM only needs 1 to land, Mod damage always happens and charger can be attempted per hit. I think topple will likely always be on, but you don't need to guesstimate with graze. 65dpr assumes no other source of advantage.
(8.3*3+6.3+3)*.73+5*6(mod)+6(gwm)+5.1(charger with gwf)
rogue .875(d6+6) + .65(d6) + .95(10d6)+ 4.5 charger=48.5
do you realize both monk, and barbarian are +2attack from capstone? grappler feat auto grapples on hit currently. this means the barb is .94accuracy, the monk is around 87 considering grapple.
Ranger can use vex and has +2 from archery. or higher than 91%
wizard laughs at everybody, they can literally hold monster round 2 for guaranteed crits for the whole team, including their blades of disaster (which gets 12d12 per crit) or animate objects earlier.
paladin can also use graze, or topple, other sources.
advantage is now a part of many subclasses, team plays. its very likely to be there. this accuracy advantage you imagine isnt significantly changing the facts, rogue is significantly behind.
You really want the average rogue to take sentinel? with the worst melee survivability in the game? The feat that encourages monsters to attack you instead of the other guy and requires you to be within 5feet of them and negates your cunning action and hide? If they are expected to do off turn attacks, thats fine, but then give them a feat or feature that makes sense with how the class is meant to be played, that most rogues would access. That would be a feasible solution as many in the thread suggested.
note that both ranger, and wizard, who provide signifigant OoC utility from range surpass the non out of turn rogue
How many times do I need to say this? Play at level 20 almost never happens so Capstones are irrelevant to the overall playability of the class. Plus when it does your character is head-to-toe in magic items so talking about magic-item-less DPR is utterly meaningless. A wizard or sorcerer can do infinite damage using Wish at level 17 so what are you even talking about with estimating their DPR from Blade of Disaster - Blade of Disaster sucks for a 9th level spell and nobody is going to us it - and why are you even trying to compare martial damage to them? Again nobody plays at these levels b/c full casters are totally broken. Even at 13th level Forcecage can just auto-defeat any enemy without teleportation (which is most of them) in a single action with no save, which is why most published adventures (and videogames) end at level 12 (or earlier).
If you want to say ignore 20, I disagree but whatevs, but if you want to ignore everything from 12 on, or as earlier from level 8 on. You really aren't evaluating the classes as presented. If you also plan to ignore what casters are capable of, and say thats irrelevant when discussing class design or balance, thats even less of the game design that you are engaging with.
if the question is, are rogues ok from 5-8? answer is ehhh not really. but low level, the gap hasn't widened much, but also the benefits aren't really there either. (skill monkeyness)
level 6 rogue, dpr including accuracy=18.8. maybe 23 if you take charger. +6 to its (4)expert skills Damage focused sub adds +5 per encounter, assuming 4 rounds, thats +1.2=24.2
level 6 barb dpr including accuracy =31.6 with Pam +throwing. +6.5 to its (4-5)proficient primal skills while rage. Damage focused sub gives +2d6 per round thats 38.6
level 6 fighter dpr including accuracy, 28(30.1 with surge every 8) pam+charger +3 to (4-5)proficient saves+5.5 to failed saves(tactical minds) =+8.5. Damage focused sub gives +4.5 per round thats 32.5(34.5 with surge)
level 6 monk dpr including accuracy, 30.6 charger +3 to (4-5) proficient skills. damage focused sub adds 7 =37.6
level 6 ranger 24 dpr including accuracy, +6 to (2)expert skills, +9.5 with enhance ability 6.5 to proficient skills. damage focused sub 32 damage per round.
so yes, rogue is always struggling, and low level its skill bonus isn't actually very impressive.
the only class its really giving more Ooc potential than is monk. but its damage potential is noticeably lower.
and the damage gap grows around 9-11 and again 14-17
without off turn rogue isn't cutting it.
Arcane Trickster adds a lot more than a +5...
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade & mage-hand
Booming Blade: does a ton of damage to a single enemy, basically stops them moving or taking more damage
Green-Flame Blade: does similar damage to Booming Blade, better for if there are two creatures or creatures are weak to fire
Mage Hand: This is a default spell
1st level: Find Familiar, Silvery Barbs & Silent Image
Find Familiar gives you advantage in 5e with help action, less clear in oneD&D. Still good for scouting and utility with Owl or Tressym.
Silvery Barbs is just broken for rogue, you can force a creature to reroll a successful attack roll or saving throw and then give yourself advantage from it.... that definitely ain't broken... P.S. works on critical hits against your friendly neighbourhood tank....
Silent Image, mostly for stealth and deception but there is some battlefield utility for this, since you can use your own image to give yourself total cover, which is... really good. The target creature has to spend an action to discern that the image is an illusion too, so can waste a target's action.
2nd level: Shadow Blade and another spell of choice
Shadow Blade: 2d8+Dex psychic damage on a thrown weapon which has advantage if the target is in dim light or darkness (their perception does not prevent anything), you have proficiency and has the light property, even if this lacks a weapon mastery, it's better than a +1/+2 rapier in most situations.
At level 7, this Arcane Trickster can potentially be putting out
Normal hit ( 2d8 + 1d8 + 4d6 ) * 0.65 + DEXmod * 0.6 = 20.275
if target moves, 2d8*0.6, 25.675, and with charger, 28.6
Advantage ( 2d8 + 1d8 + 4d6 ) * 0.9375 + DEXmod * 0.84 = 29.14125
if target moves, 36.70125, and then with charger 40.92
This build makes Eldritch Adapt, to pick up devil's sight, very tempting. It's partially situational, but any time you're in dim light or darkness it's beating the barbarian. If you're not, then you're gunna switch back to a rapier and use silvery barbs to keep DPS up. If you use charger for damage or push is another question, Barbarian is generally not going to use reckless attack every turn in actual game play, taking on that amount of disadvantage is usually not a good idea.
not going to go over your Barbarian numbers, I think you've slightly low-balled them too to be honest but the damage between Rogue and Barbarian here is far far closer than you're thinking. Theoretically Barbarian does more but in actual play, the Rogue is going to do more, most of the time since they aren't taking on disadvantage to get advantage.
Of course a lot of this stuff does require going outside of the PHB, but this is stuff a lot of groups will play with since it's a PHB replacement and not a full new edition.
arcane trickster might be OK. but nothing else is. So either the other subclasses need something or the main class needs something.
I think a point I made earlier, is without off turn tricks, the class is lacking, and in its current form most players will not get access to off turn hijinks.
A solution might be a feat or feature that makes off turn attacks more mainstream for the class.
but also I would have to add off turn possibilities to every class analysis.