I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
If the Hexbalde's power came from the weapon, then a 1st level character would be just as powerful as a 20th level character. After all, the weapon doesn't change. The Kensei spends his life dedicated to mastering the weapon and it is only through that lifelong dedication that he develops the ability to unlock more of the weapon.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Mechanically maybe. But I am not a fan of dips for abilities. You are taking a class and that should mean something beyond i get this pile of abilities for the low low cost of one level. Like if you want to play a fighter who is also a wizard, sure fighter and wizard multiclass makes sense. But hey I want to play something like a kensai, have you considered monk and making a pact with the demon blade. On the mechanical side D&D isn't a build a bear system, its multi class system is not designed for that as they over stack the low levels with more abilities so the class comes into its own early on. If everyone at the table is on the same page it can work but usually it means one grossly over powered character and 3 others. On a thematic/story/setting side taking a class should have more meaning than whatever pile of abilities they give you at level 1.
edit given your next post i may have misunderstood you. A single class hexblade does not fit thematically with a martial artist who masters weapons imo.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Mechanically maybe. But I am not a fan of dips for abilities. You are taking a class and that should mean something beyond i get this pile of abilities for the low low cost of one level. Like if you want to play a fighter who is also a wizard, sure fighter and wizard multiclass makes sense. But hey I want to play something like a kensai, have you considered monk and making a pact with the demon blade. On the mechanical side D&D isn't a build a bear system, its multi class system is not designed for that as they over stack the low levels with more abilities so the class comes into its own early on. If everyone at the table is on the same page it can work but usually it means one grossly over powered character and 3 others. On a thematic/story/setting side taking a class should have more meaning than whatever pile of abilities they give you at level 1.
edit given your next post i may have misunderstood you. A single class hexblade does not fit thematically with a martial artist who masters weapons imo.
I fail to see what it represents thematically if not a person who has dedicated his life to mastering a specific weapon (i.e, not just "longswords," but "this specific longsword passed down through my father and my father's father" or the like). I mean "this weapon I found at the cursed temple" is an option, but it certainly isn't the only one.
Think of
Katana from DC Comics. (a master martial artist dedicated to mastering the sword and whose sword has the magical ability to absorb the soul of anyone killed by it)
Or a Pendekar
(the mythology around the Pendekar is that he or she often has magical powers such as the ability to hypnotize their opponent and, furthermore, their kris (blade)has magical powers of its own, for example, it is often claimed to be sentient)
But if what you want isn't a sword saint, but rather a martial artist who masters weapons, the game has that class. It is called a fighter.
You are reading too heavily into the fluff. There is absolutely NOTHING about the _mechanics_ of the class which require conceptualizing it as getting it's powers from an outside source.
Further, as I've pointed out, the trope of the sword saint includes an exceptional and usually supernatural weapon.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Sorry but what? Hexblade is smooth talking (high CHA class), with no physical abilities at all, just a magic sword that does the fighting for them. Kensei is an agile (DEX-based), warrior with versatility for ranged or melee combat and who forsakes armour instead relying on speed and exceptional reflexes to dodge bullets and deflect blows. A Battlemaster Fighter is closer to a Kensei than a Hexblade Warlock, but lacks the mystical component, Bladesinger is pretty close but is too magic focused.
Think:
TMNTs, Morpheus from the Matrix, most of the characters in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon,, etc...
Or the dozens of IRL martial arts that focus on using weapons not just your body.
Sure you could multiclass monk & fighter to do it, but why not just have a subclass that serves that trope? Many other subclasses are just hybrids of two other classes - EK Fighter, AT Rogue, Hexblade, Swords/Valor Bard, Bladesinger, War Cleric (UA version), Hunter Ranger.
You are reading too heavily into the fluff. There is absolutely NOTHING about the _mechanics_ of the class which require conceptualizing it as getting it's powers from an outside source.
Further, as I've pointed out, the trope of the sword saint includes an exceptional and usually supernatural weapon.
You are not reading into the fluff enough. D&D is not a point buy build your character system without fluff. I love hero games and fantasy hero is one of my favorite fantasy games, but D&D is not that. And even if it were a full caster with a limited range of sword mastery abilities is no where near the same as a martial artist with supernatural abilities. Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery. The class does not have the physicality of a monk almost like it gets its power from outside and not within.
You are reading too heavily into the fluff. There is absolutely NOTHING about the _mechanics_ of the class which require conceptualizing it as getting it's powers from an outside source.
Further, as I've pointed out, the trope of the sword saint includes an exceptional and usually supernatural weapon.
You are not reading into the fluff enough. D&D is not a point buy build your character system without fluff. I love hero games and fantasy hero is one of my favorite fantasy games, but D&D is not that. And even if it were a full caster with a limited range of sword mastery abilities is no where near the same as a martial artist with supernatural abilities. Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery. The class does not have the physicality of a monk almost like it gets its power from outside and not within.
Tell me, please, how the _mechanics_ of the Hexblade demand that all their powers be conceived as coming from outside the character. Help me understand.
While you're at it, if you wouldn't mind, please explain why it is okay to change both the fluff and the mechanics of the Monk to conceptualize a character whose powers do not come completely from within (namely a kensei who is, in fact, dependent on his weapon), but not okay to change only the fluff of the Hexblade to attain the same goal.
"Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery" Why not?
In point of fact, if you examine the sword saint trope, you see many abilities which, in myth and in the game, are magical. These abilities include the ability to hypnotize their opponent (1st level spell Charm Person, 3rd level spell Hypnotic Pattern), the ability to commune with their ancestors (5th level spell Commune), the ability to resist damage (1st level spell Absorb Elements), etc.
You are reading too heavily into the fluff. There is absolutely NOTHING about the _mechanics_ of the class which require conceptualizing it as getting it's powers from an outside source.
Further, as I've pointed out, the trope of the sword saint includes an exceptional and usually supernatural weapon.
You are not reading into the fluff enough. D&D is not a point buy build your character system without fluff. I love hero games and fantasy hero is one of my favorite fantasy games, but D&D is not that. And even if it were a full caster with a limited range of sword mastery abilities is no where near the same as a martial artist with supernatural abilities. Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery. The class does not have the physicality of a monk almost like it gets its power from outside and not within.
Tell me, please, how the _mechanics_ of the Hexblade demand that all their powers be conceived as coming from outside the character. Help me understand.
While you're at it, if you wouldn't mind, please explain why it is okay to change both the fluff and the mechanics of the Monk to conceptualize a character whose powers do not come completely from within (namely a kensei who is, in fact, dependent on his weapon), but not okay to change only the fluff of the Hexblade to attain the same goal.
"Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery" Why not?
In point of fact, if you examine the sword saint trope, you see many abilities which, in myth and in the game, are magical. These abilities include the ability to hypnotize their opponent (1st level spell Charm Person, 3rd level spell Hypnotic Pattern), the ability to commune with their ancestors (5th level spell Commune), the ability to resist damage (1st level spell Absorb Elements), etc.
Because you are actually casting a spell, chanting and waving your hands and then all you do is jump a bit further. You aren't just jumping further due to your innate abilities and training, you are casting a spell. You aren't running across water, you just jump a bit further. And while a couple spells might match some sword saint myths the rest don't and you have 9 freaking spell levels of this. some spells fitting when 20 that you have don't means its not a great class for this. The hexblade can represent some things if you want to ignore all the fluff which I think is a bad idea, but it wont represent the physicality of what people want from a kensai.
You are reading too heavily into the fluff. There is absolutely NOTHING about the _mechanics_ of the class which require conceptualizing it as getting it's powers from an outside source.
Further, as I've pointed out, the trope of the sword saint includes an exceptional and usually supernatural weapon.
You are not reading into the fluff enough. D&D is not a point buy build your character system without fluff. I love hero games and fantasy hero is one of my favorite fantasy games, but D&D is not that. And even if it were a full caster with a limited range of sword mastery abilities is no where near the same as a martial artist with supernatural abilities. Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery. The class does not have the physicality of a monk almost like it gets its power from outside and not within.
Tell me, please, how the _mechanics_ of the Hexblade demand that all their powers be conceived as coming from outside the character. Help me understand.
While you're at it, if you wouldn't mind, please explain why it is okay to change both the fluff and the mechanics of the Monk to conceptualize a character whose powers do not come completely from within (namely a kensei who is, in fact, dependent on his weapon), but not okay to change only the fluff of the Hexblade to attain the same goal.
"Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery" Why not?
In point of fact, if you examine the sword saint trope, you see many abilities which, in myth and in the game, are magical. These abilities include the ability to hypnotize their opponent (1st level spell Charm Person, 3rd level spell Hypnotic Pattern), the ability to commune with their ancestors (5th level spell Commune), the ability to resist damage (1st level spell Absorb Elements), etc.
Because you are actually casting a spell, chanting and waving your hands and then all you do is jump a bit further. You aren't just jumping further due to your innate abilities and training, you are casting a spell. You aren't running across water, you just jump a bit further. And while a couple spells might match some sword saint myths the rest don't and you have 9 freaking spell levels of this. some spells fitting when 20 that you have don't means its not a great class for this. The hexblade can represent some things if you want to ignore all the fluff which I think is a bad idea, but it wont represent the physicality of what people want from a kensai.
Can a monk do things that a hexblade can't do and vice versa? Sure. Which set of things is more appropriate for a kensei? On the one hand, you've got the ability to walk on water. On the other hand, you've got things like being able to draw your weapon from hammer space, thus preventing you from ever being seperated from your weapon for long and allowing you to sneak it into places you wouldn't otherwise be able to take a weapon.
Hmm..which is more in the flavor of a kensei, the ability to walk on water or the ability to store their favored weapon in hammer space? That's apparently a difference of opinion between you and I.
What's a sword-saint? I've never heard of that before. Kensei is a martial artist that uses weapons with those arts. That weapon isn't necessarily magical in anyway, but they can do things that seem like magic because of how skilled they are at using it.
Pandekar:
Silat folklore is replete with tales of fighters possessing such skills as the ability to run very rapidly, vanish in a puff of smoke and reappear, change form, dash across the surface of water, turn invisible, or leap to the roof of a house.
Sounds like a Shadow Monk to me.
Katana from DC is a Kensei Monk holding Blackrazor.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, itâs a scam. Unless itâs me. Iâd never lie to you, reader dearest.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
If the Hexbalde's power came from the weapon, then a 1st level character would be just as powerful as a 20th level character. After all, the weapon doesn't change. The Kensei spends his life dedicated to mastering the weapon and it is only through that lifelong dedication that he develops the ability to unlock more of the weapon.
Thatâs like saying a 1st level fiend warlock should be the same as a 20th level fiend warlock. But thatâs not how it works. The patron bestows power incrementally as the PC furthers the patrons goals, knowingly or unknowingly. At least thatâs how I see it
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
If the Hexbalde's power came from the weapon, then a 1st level character would be just as powerful as a 20th level character. After all, the weapon doesn't change. The Kensei spends his life dedicated to mastering the weapon and it is only through that lifelong dedication that he develops the ability to unlock more of the weapon.
Thatâs like saying a 1st level fiend warlock should be the same as a 20th level fiend warlock. But thatâs not how it works. The patron bestows power incrementally as the PC furthers the patrons goals, knowingly or unknowingly. At least thatâs how I see it
Respectfully, a patron isn't omniscient or all wise. They bestow power incrementally as they perceive / understand / interpret the PC's actions as furthering the patron's goals.
As such, I contend, it is a similar situation to a Kensei mastering a weapon. The kensei masters a weapon and learns to unlock more of the weapon. The warlock grifts his patron and learns to unlock more of the patron's boons.
Having said that, you might have made a stronger argument if you had discussed clerics of gods which are omniscient and all wise. However, I'm not entirely sure that any such deity even exists in a world of multiple equal gods.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
If the Hexbalde's power came from the weapon, then a 1st level character would be just as powerful as a 20th level character. After all, the weapon doesn't change. The Kensei spends his life dedicated to mastering the weapon and it is only through that lifelong dedication that he develops the ability to unlock more of the weapon.
Thatâs like saying a 1st level fiend warlock should be the same as a 20th level fiend warlock. But thatâs not how it works. The patron bestows power incrementally as the PC furthers the patrons goals, knowingly or unknowingly. At least thatâs how I see it
Respectfully, a patron isn't omniscient or all wise. They bestow power incrementally as they perceive / understand / interpret the PC's actions as furthering the patron's goals.
As such, I contend, it is a similar situation to a Kensei mastering a weapon. The kensei masters a weapon and learns to unlock more of the weapon. The warlock grifts his patron and learns to unlock more of the patron's boons.
Having said that, you might have made a stronger argument if you had discussed clerics of gods which are omniscient and all wise. However, I'm not entirely sure that any such deity even exists in a world of multiple equal gods.
Omniscient or all wise had nothing to do with my argument. The warlocks power comes from the patron not the weapon. From the class description:
You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell â a force that manifests in sentient magic weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty sword Blackrazor is the most notable of these weapons, which have been spread across the multiverse over the ages. The shadowy force behind these weapons can offer power to warlocks who form pacts with it. Many hexblade warlocks create weapons that emulate those formed in the Shadowfell. Others forgo such arms, content to weave the dark magic of that plane into their spellcasting.
The weapon a Hexblade wields is usually not the actual sentient weapon. A 1st level Hexblade isnât wielding Blackrazor but may wield a weapon that looks like it, or of Blade pact, form a blade to look like it. Or if they find a magic weapon use that and still have their patrons power. And as part of their pact, the patron grants additional powers over time (levels).
while a Kensei monk hones their inner power and skill with a weapon through dedication and focus and, just like training in anything, gets better over time and âunlocksâ new abilities.
Donât get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem flavoring anything to fit a theme. I could very well see a Hexblade as a weapon master. And I do look at many classes as just a bag of mechanics to create whatever fantasy youâre looking for. I just think of the Kensei as one who gains their abilities from themselves and not gained from outside via a patron. But play it however you like.
None of these are for the PHB obviously because that's a done deal.
1) I want them to take another stab at a true caster-gish monk; make it a 1/3 caster like EK and AT, drawing from the Cleric list. They can bring back the name Sacred Fist from Complete Divine if they want. A monk that can cast healing spells and dive into melee at high levels with Spirit Guardians would be really nice to see.
2) I want them to revisit the Sun Soul as the de facto ranged/ki-blast monk option. The Radiant Sun Bolts are actually decent now (though I'd vastly prefer 60' range), it's the other three abilities that need to be buffed considerably, especially the subcapstone.
3) Astral Self doesn't need much, it just needs to go all-in on being the "Wis-SAD" monk. Let it use Wis for face skills like Fey Wanderer does. Wis to attack and damage is already there. Like Open Hand and Mercy, this should be a monk that doesn't want to even glance at a weapon.
4) Kensei (renamed to Sword Saint maybe? Warrior of Iron?) should be the thematic opposite of Astral Self, this is the monk that wants to use weapons exclusively. Weapon Mastery, archery, fighting styles, flurry with weapons, this should be the monk that pretty much never punches.
The only Monk I don't think they need to revisit is Drunken Master - 2024 Open Hand does pretty much everything it was trying to do, but better.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
âyea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which donât match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
âbeing dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isnât going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, itâs going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someoneâs fantasy, but itâs not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
âyea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which donât match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
âbeing dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isnât going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, itâs going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someoneâs fantasy, but itâs not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I really don't have a problem with it being affected by anti-magic. It is all aspects of the weave. Unlike ki, which is entirely internal to a monk, if the focus is outside of the monk (as a weapon is), I reason that focus-energy should be more vulnerable to being disrupted.
But I'm not going to try to convince you, just try to clarify why ^I^ don't find your arguments convincing. There's enough problems with the game producers telling us what is badwrongfun for us to add anything more to that heap.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
âyea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which donât match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
âbeing dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isnât going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, itâs going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someoneâs fantasy, but itâs not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I really don't have a problem with it being affected by anti-magic. It is all aspects of the weave. Unlike ki, which is entirely internal to a monk, if the focus is outside of the monk (as a weapon is), I reason that focus-energy should be more vulnerable to being disrupted.
But I'm not going to try to convince you, just try to clarify why ^I^ don't find your arguments convincing. There's enough problems with the game producers telling us what is badwrongfun for us to add anything more to that heap.
im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isnât supplied by a hex blade warlock. Iâm not saying the class is bad, or cannot be used to represent some sword fantasies, merely that it isnât what many people are looking for when they pick kensei.
its fine that it satisfies you, but we are mostly talking about what subclasses monk players are looking for, not so much whether hex blade is cool. âand the hex blade, mechanically, and flavor wise offers a fairly different experience.
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Youâre right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
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If the Hexbalde's power came from the weapon, then a 1st level character would be just as powerful as a 20th level character. After all, the weapon doesn't change. The Kensei spends his life dedicated to mastering the weapon and it is only through that lifelong dedication that he develops the ability to unlock more of the weapon.
Mechanically maybe. But I am not a fan of dips for abilities. You are taking a class and that should mean something beyond i get this pile of abilities for the low low cost of one level. Like if you want to play a fighter who is also a wizard, sure fighter and wizard multiclass makes sense. But hey I want to play something like a kensai, have you considered monk and making a pact with the demon blade. On the mechanical side D&D isn't a build a bear system, its multi class system is not designed for that as they over stack the low levels with more abilities so the class comes into its own early on. If everyone at the table is on the same page it can work but usually it means one grossly over powered character and 3 others. On a thematic/story/setting side taking a class should have more meaning than whatever pile of abilities they give you at level 1.
edit given your next post i may have misunderstood you. A single class hexblade does not fit thematically with a martial artist who masters weapons imo.
I fail to see what it represents thematically if not a person who has dedicated his life to mastering a specific weapon (i.e, not just "longswords," but "this specific longsword passed down through my father and my father's father" or the like). I mean "this weapon I found at the cursed temple" is an option, but it certainly isn't the only one.
Think of
Katana from DC Comics. (a master martial artist dedicated to mastering the sword and whose sword has the magical ability to absorb the soul of anyone killed by it)
Or a Pendekar
(the mythology around the Pendekar is that he or she often has magical powers such as the ability to hypnotize their opponent and, furthermore, their kris (blade)has magical powers of its own, for example, it is often claimed to be sentient)
But if what you want isn't a sword saint, but rather a martial artist who masters weapons, the game has that class. It is called a fighter.
A warlock gains their power from an outside source a monk gains it from within.
You are reading too heavily into the fluff. There is absolutely NOTHING about the _mechanics_ of the class which require conceptualizing it as getting it's powers from an outside source.
Further, as I've pointed out, the trope of the sword saint includes an exceptional and usually supernatural weapon.
Sorry but what? Hexblade is smooth talking (high CHA class), with no physical abilities at all, just a magic sword that does the fighting for them. Kensei is an agile (DEX-based), warrior with versatility for ranged or melee combat and who forsakes armour instead relying on speed and exceptional reflexes to dodge bullets and deflect blows. A Battlemaster Fighter is closer to a Kensei than a Hexblade Warlock, but lacks the mystical component, Bladesinger is pretty close but is too magic focused.
Think:
TMNTs, Morpheus from the Matrix, most of the characters in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon,, etc...
Or the dozens of IRL martial arts that focus on using weapons not just your body.
Sure you could multiclass monk & fighter to do it, but why not just have a subclass that serves that trope? Many other subclasses are just hybrids of two other classes - EK Fighter, AT Rogue, Hexblade, Swords/Valor Bard, Bladesinger, War Cleric (UA version), Hunter Ranger.
You are not reading into the fluff enough. D&D is not a point buy build your character system without fluff. I love hero games and fantasy hero is one of my favorite fantasy games, but D&D is not that. And even if it were a full caster with a limited range of sword mastery abilities is no where near the same as a martial artist with supernatural abilities. Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery. The class does not have the physicality of a monk almost like it gets its power from outside and not within.
Tell me, please, how the _mechanics_ of the Hexblade demand that all their powers be conceived as coming from outside the character. Help me understand.
While you're at it, if you wouldn't mind, please explain why it is okay to change both the fluff and the mechanics of the Monk to conceptualize a character whose powers do not come completely from within (namely a kensei who is, in fact, dependent on his weapon), but not okay to change only the fluff of the Hexblade to attain the same goal.
"Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery" Why not?
In point of fact, if you examine the sword saint trope, you see many abilities which, in myth and in the game, are magical. These abilities include the ability to hypnotize their opponent (1st level spell Charm Person, 3rd level spell Hypnotic Pattern), the ability to commune with their ancestors (5th level spell Commune), the ability to resist damage (1st level spell Absorb Elements), etc.
Because you are actually casting a spell, chanting and waving your hands and then all you do is jump a bit further. You aren't just jumping further due to your innate abilities and training, you are casting a spell. You aren't running across water, you just jump a bit further. And while a couple spells might match some sword saint myths the rest don't and you have 9 freaking spell levels of this. some spells fitting when 20 that you have don't means its not a great class for this. The hexblade can represent some things if you want to ignore all the fluff which I think is a bad idea, but it wont represent the physicality of what people want from a kensai.
Can a monk do things that a hexblade can't do and vice versa? Sure. Which set of things is more appropriate for a kensei? On the one hand, you've got the ability to walk on water. On the other hand, you've got things like being able to draw your weapon from hammer space, thus preventing you from ever being seperated from your weapon for long and allowing you to sneak it into places you wouldn't otherwise be able to take a weapon.
Hmm..which is more in the flavor of a kensei, the ability to walk on water or the ability to store their favored weapon in hammer space? That's apparently a difference of opinion between you and I.
What's a sword-saint? I've never heard of that before. Kensei is a martial artist that uses weapons with those arts. That weapon isn't necessarily magical in anyway, but they can do things that seem like magic because of how skilled they are at using it.
Pandekar:
Sounds like a Shadow Monk to me.
Katana from DC is a Kensei Monk holding Blackrazor.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, itâs a scam. Unless itâs me. Iâd never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Thatâs like saying a 1st level fiend warlock should be the same as a 20th level fiend warlock. But thatâs not how it works. The patron bestows power incrementally as the PC furthers the patrons goals, knowingly or unknowingly. At least thatâs how I see it
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Respectfully, a patron isn't omniscient or all wise. They bestow power incrementally as they perceive / understand / interpret the PC's actions as furthering the patron's goals.
As such, I contend, it is a similar situation to a Kensei mastering a weapon. The kensei masters a weapon and learns to unlock more of the weapon. The warlock grifts his patron and learns to unlock more of the patron's boons.
Having said that, you might have made a stronger argument if you had discussed clerics of gods which are omniscient and all wise. However, I'm not entirely sure that any such deity even exists in a world of multiple equal gods.
Omniscient or all wise had nothing to do with my argument. The warlocks power comes from the patron not the weapon. From the class description:
The weapon a Hexblade wields is usually not the actual sentient weapon. A 1st level Hexblade isnât wielding Blackrazor but may wield a weapon that looks like it, or of Blade pact, form a blade to look like it. Or if they find a magic weapon use that and still have their patrons power. And as part of their pact, the patron grants additional powers over time (levels).
while a Kensei monk hones their inner power and skill with a weapon through dedication and focus and, just like training in anything, gets better over time and âunlocksâ new abilities.
Donât get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem flavoring anything to fit a theme. I could very well see a Hexblade as a weapon master. And I do look at many classes as just a bag of mechanics to create whatever fantasy youâre looking for. I just think of the Kensei as one who gains their abilities from themselves and not gained from outside via a patron. But play it however you like.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
None of these are for the PHB obviously because that's a done deal.
1) I want them to take another stab at a true caster-gish monk; make it a 1/3 caster like EK and AT, drawing from the Cleric list. They can bring back the name Sacred Fist from Complete Divine if they want. A monk that can cast healing spells and dive into melee at high levels with Spirit Guardians would be really nice to see.
2) I want them to revisit the Sun Soul as the de facto ranged/ki-blast monk option. The Radiant Sun Bolts are actually decent now (though I'd vastly prefer 60' range), it's the other three abilities that need to be buffed considerably, especially the subcapstone.
3) Astral Self doesn't need much, it just needs to go all-in on being the "Wis-SAD" monk. Let it use Wis for face skills like Fey Wanderer does. Wis to attack and damage is already there. Like Open Hand and Mercy, this should be a monk that doesn't want to even glance at a weapon.
4) Kensei (renamed to Sword Saint maybe? Warrior of Iron?) should be the thematic opposite of Astral Self, this is the monk that wants to use weapons exclusively. Weapon Mastery, archery, fighting styles, flurry with weapons, this should be the monk that pretty much never punches.
The only Monk I don't think they need to revisit is Drunken Master - 2024 Open Hand does pretty much everything it was trying to do, but better.
âyea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which donât match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
âbeing dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isnât going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, itâs going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someoneâs fantasy, but itâs not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I really don't have a problem with it being affected by anti-magic. It is all aspects of the weave. Unlike ki, which is entirely internal to a monk, if the focus is outside of the monk (as a weapon is), I reason that focus-energy should be more vulnerable to being disrupted.
But I'm not going to try to convince you, just try to clarify why ^I^ don't find your arguments convincing. There's enough problems with the game producers telling us what is badwrongfun for us to add anything more to that heap.
im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isnât supplied by a hex blade warlock. Iâm not saying the class is bad, or cannot be used to represent some sword fantasies, merely that it isnât what many people are looking for when they pick kensei.
its fine that it satisfies you, but we are mostly talking about what subclasses monk players are looking for, not so much whether hex blade is cool.
âand the hex blade, mechanically, and flavor wise offers a fairly different experience.