Really disappointed with the timing of the unearthed arcana for the artificer. There is a lot of feedback I would have liked to share but the timing of the release being over the holidays prohibited me from play testing the material and having feedback window close so early in the new year prevented me from giving any feedback at all.
Honestly, I could go for another UA test myself. I only got to play a single One Shot and after my game yesterday another player and I were discussing our feedback. I want to do another One Shot now and so do they. We both love the class but think Alchemist and Battle Smith need significant reworks to make them something people would actually play which Armorer is utterly broken. I mean we both love it as a subclass, but it is S-Tier even when compared to the other classes subclasses. Artillerist is pretty solid too. Not as utterly overpowered as Armorer but solid.
It left us both feeling like they created the Armorer and then went, 'oh we need to have a class for this subclass... Artificer!', then created the Artificer class just to fit the subclass somewhere. Now they had a new class though, so they needed more subclasses and thus Artillerist was born. By the time they got to Battle Smith they kind of ran out of creative juices and for good measure they haphazardly threw Alchemist in there because of course and there isn't a healer subclass.
I playtested the UA Artificer also, and was out of town only to return to discover that the feedback survey is already closed. I didn't get any notifications like all the previous feedback surveys. - I hope people responded well.
I playtested the UA Artificer also, and was out of town only to return to discover that the feedback survey is already closed. I didn't get any notifications like all the previous feedback surveys. - I hope people responded well.
That is why I keep starting threads for it. I feel like the feedback was too short.
Where on earth are you getting the armorer being OVERpowered? They've long been said to be lacking in offensive power, and in the campaign I've been playing one in, I was clearly dead last in damage output compared to the rest of the party for a long time. The changes made in the UA work out to a net negative despite their intro saying they buffed it.
Where on earth are you getting the armorer being OVERpowered? They've long been said to be lacking in offensive power, and in the campaign I've been playing one in, I was clearly dead last in damage output compared to the rest of the party for a long time. The changes made in the UA work out to a net negative despite their intro saying they buffed it.
It isn't the DPS subclass, but it is still one of the best-rounded subclasses so far as I have seen imho. Maybe try using your infusions to cheese up your DPS and choose spells which do the same?
Nonetheless I understand where you are coming from. The Artificer isn't a Tank, Healer, or DPS class. It subverts those styles of play by navigating around rules which would hinder those styles of play. The party doesn't pick up an Alchemist because they need a healer. They nab one because they need heals while in the Underdark which won't be affected by Wild Magic. Parties don't select an Armorer because they need a Tank. They grab one so they can have a tanker utility caster who can bypass the chaos of the Far Realms by activating their heavily infused armor. An Artillerist isn't prone to be taken along for the adventure because they can output tons of damage. They are selected because they can set up a position, have targets lured into their trap, and attack from all sides to hold a spot on the battlefield. As for the Battle Smith... I don't know. They have a shiny spider...?
Anyway, the reason I like the class so much is that it isn't part of the "holy trinity" of RPG classes. It sort of can do all of those things but does it differently to bypass some restriction that would hinder a class that does fit one of those three categories. This is also why I despise Alchemist being forced to rely on rngesus. I don't believe the holy trinity or rngesus is good gaming and I like to tinker with my builds to make something completely unviable work in some completely amazing way that only works so spectacularly in some special circumstance where the build is the only reasonable way to overcome the challenge.
It left us both feeling like they created the Armorer and then went, 'oh we need to have a class for this subclass... Artificer!', then created the Artificer class just to fit the subclass somewhere.
Are you aware that the Artificer was a class from 3.5e, 4e, and 5e and they are not new with this Unearthed Arcana? The Eberron Campaign Setting was released in 2004. This class is over 20 years old.
I was hoping we'd see another round of playtesting, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Eberron: Forge of the Artificer has been announced for August of 2025. With all the production requirements, I don't think they'll have time for another round.
Let's hope they've taken at least some of the survey to heart. I know it is too much to hope that the new magic item replication will be seamlessly integrated into the old class and subclasses, but hopefully it'll have some of the more apparent bugs we've noticed filed down and polished.
Incidentally, in the article discussing the Eberron book, there was artwork of the Artificer with each subclass depicted in a recogniseable fashion - except there were five figures, with one of them looking mighty... archival? Maybe there's a surprise for us yet :)
One thing I'm beating myself up a bit about over the survey, is that I had such a (good?) idea a few days later. There's been a lot of comments about the class losing the expertise in tools, but since nobody is allowed to have expertise in tools anymore, I can see why that'd stick around. However... what if Artificers took a page from the Bard and became "Jack of all Tools"? You get half your proficiency bonus on every tool you're not proficient in? I feel like that'd be pretty fun.
For what it's worth, I thought doing away with Infusions was a great step in the right direction. The artificer feels less clunky and more like a nick-of-time kitbasher to create the effective tools and equipment for whatever challenge comes up.
For what it's worth, I thought doing away with Infusions was a great step in the right direction. The artificer feels less clunky and more like a nick-of-time kitbasher to create the effective tools and equipment for whatever challenge comes up.
Aw... but I liked the clunk of infusions. I guess that just goes to show that there's a lot of different ways to interpret the Artificer class.
However, I feel like it would've made for an awesome SUBclass called, say, 'Wonderworker' or something, who as you say can MacGuyver up all kinds of gear when the group needs it. Make that a flavour to choose, rather than a core feature. That's what subclasses are for, right? To give a solid identity to a class that's more of a conceptual framework?
For what it's worth, I thought doing away with Infusions was a great step in the right direction. The artificer feels less clunky and more like a nick-of-time kitbasher to create the effective tools and equipment for whatever challenge comes up.
There is no defined time requirement for Replicate Magic Item and no materials required. They are conjuring items from nothing.
The magic item crafting process, if you were creating a magic item from scratch, would be to create the base item first then instill it with magic. The Infusion mechanic felt like it was a quick and dirty, temporary version of the magic item crafting process.
I personally would prefer if they took the Replicate Magic Item ability, whatever it is called in the end, and require a physical item to replicate the magic item into instead of poofing items into being and disappearing them to cast one more spell a day.
For what it's worth, I thought doing away with Infusions was a great step in the right direction. The artificer feels less clunky and more like a nick-of-time kitbasher to create the effective tools and equipment for whatever challenge comes up.
There is no defined time requirement for Replicate Magic Item and no materials required. They are conjuring items from nothing.
The magic item crafting process, if you were creating a magic item from scratch, would be to create the base item first then instill it with magic. The Infusion mechanic felt like it was a quick and dirty, temporary version of the magic item crafting process.
I personally would prefer if they took the Replicate Magic Item ability, whatever it is called in the end, and require a physical item to replicate the magic item into instead of poofing items into being and disappearing them to cast one more spell a day.
The unearthed arcana artificer already struggles early, from 1-4. This would make them notcieably worse, as the main advantage they have from 1-4 is that they can have two pieces of high cost equipment.
And, levels 1-4 dont really last a lot of time objectively, so they have no advanatges in crafting or buying items. for example, crafting even studded leather armor(1 ac more than starter gear) would take 5 days of downtime. with 5 days of adventuring, you are probably level 3 or 4. you probably have had zero downtime, and you have very little money.
so basically, your level 2 feature, and your level 1 feature give virtually no value. You dont even start off with a shield, you cant even make a shield +1 because you dont have a shield. You basically can heavy a weapon +1, and a utility item (that is if you arent requiring them to obtain goggles and jugs and whatever before making utility items)
and you dont have more money than anyone else.
what is going to make up for this?
The reason they needed to get rid of the item requirement was because crafting in 5e does not actually work with adventuring or many parties. Especially at lower levels. platemail for example will always need 150 days to craft, essentially making this an item no one should ever actually craft. Its easier to buy this item. Even mainstream items like heavy xbow would take 5 days of downtime to craft. When does the average party get 5 days of downtime? after 10-20 days of adventuring? And thats ignoring the DMG advice for finding materials is 50% outside of cities and 75% in main cities, with 7 days between each attempt to find items.
in order for this to work, artificer would need a totally different means of obtaining items that could be done alongside your average adventuring day that wasnt particularly limited by DM or narrative considerations.
that requirement is what lead them to "poofing" a limited number of magic items.
So lets say you were going to do this, you would probably need to give artificer a strong new level 1-2 feature that competes with rage, martial arts, extra spells/slots/cantrips. (because even if you could craft every adventuring day, youd still be underpowered for the first 10 -20 days or so)
you would then have to create a system that allows them to craft while adventuring, and probably with scaling speed, without needing DM approval.
and that last part is kind of a big deal, because while the current one can only do this for 2-3 items in t1 to t3, even if it was just limited to common items, the artificer could probably give out a lot more items than 3 in that time frame, and mostly double the value of their gold. Which i dont think they were really interested in doing in these teirs
i just dont see them doing what would need to be done for it to work. They might revert to infusion, and then the artificer is back to being primarily an enchanter of items rather than a creator or inventor, whose power is basically decided by what items you can buy or find.
and 2014 artifcer doesnt really compete with 2024 classes, so you need to find a way to give them a power/versatility bump that isnt based on items (which it probably should be)
If you want them to work, you have to solve that question, how can they create items while adventuring without needing the DM to alter the narrative and pacing around them, at a pace that is relevant to the normal power progression
magic replication was their solution, whats yours?
So to give some context, to really look at how artifcer might need to work, we got to look at some economies, not necessarily to profit, but to obatin power through items.
basically first off adventuring is designed to be the most profitable/progressive thing you can be doing.
players will earn more money, gain more experience, and more items by doing adventuring than anything else given the same time
a player, based on the monster loot tables and guidance should roughly be getting, conservatively asuuming 4-10 monsters killed per player
Cr 0-4: 40-100 gold per adventuring day and +125 gold per session. they will spend around 7-12 adventuring days in this range
Cr-5-10 360-900 gold per adventuring day and +1100 gold per session they will spend about 21-30 days in this range
Cr 11-16 4400-11000gp per adventurimg day +9000 gold per session they will spend about 23-33 days in this range
Cr 17+ 36000-90000gp per adventuring day + 82000 gold per session the rest of their days in this range.
on top of that they will get magical items per each level range.
crafting on the other hand; works mostly based on the item
non magical equipment, crafting can save you 5 gp per day
common magical can save you 10gp per day
uncommon magical can save you 20gp per day
rare magical can save you 40gp per day
very rare ' ' ' 160gp
legendary 250gp
so as you can see crafting is designed to be the worst way to obtain items,
and for crafting items which incorporate other items, you either pay for, or provide the item likely via crafting. which is always less effiecient time and money wise than buying it, if its non magical.
for example, in the time it takes you to make a heavy xbow, 5 days, you can earn 200 gold taking it extremely easy. not only that, you will probably gain 3-4 levels.
obtaining mundane items via crafting is almost never worth doing, unless you cant adventure.
this is fine in general the game wants to promote adventure and downtime activities are meant to mostly be preparing for the next adventure and spending money.
but as long as the artificer exists in this paradigm, getting mundane items by means other than buying them in a store is generally really bad.
crafting magic items is worthwhile mostly because its the only way to get items you specifically want, and based on the time, it really only is feasible for common-rare items.
So what this means is, without a drastic design shift, base items are shop and find. Which isnt going to lean into the artificer Iron Man/Ateam/woodshop class/magical inventor fantasy, if they are limited by normal base items aquisition.
its not going to be, i crafted my own armor, its going to be I bought my armor at Target. and maybe i tweaked it. with infusions, i tweaked it by touching it once per day.
So essentially the same thing as this UA except you have to find a store to buy your gear before you can make use of most of your leveled features. And if your DM is trying to limit gp or item gain, you are severely limited.
So, lets say you want to change it Up? they would need to be able to craft at least 3-4 basic items in the 7-12 days of adventuring that would be level 1-5. And by basic items we mean improvments on the average classes' starting equipment, for classes that are supposed to be good at it.
By level 3, (2-3 adventurimg days)
In terms of the armorer, they need to have an armor that is at least 17 AC, or they arent really getting much value out of heavy armor. thats splint mail, normally 20 days to craft, but 10 days for them if they started at 3, but they need to already have this at 3 for it to matter. and probably 50 g for a side weapon that isnt armor specific (especially since they likely are using blade cantrips/true strike instead of the armor weapons)
battlesmith needs magical martial weapons of their choice, and fairly decent armor
soo from level 1-4
lets say they need to be able to create about 100g of mundane item value a day while adventuring, that you probably dont want to be able to sold legally to npcs, and is not limited by DMs (they will always have fiat, but this means its normally a not thing they will mess with, like martial arts, or rage, or spell slots)
then from 5+ armorers should really have full plate, or the top armor available if not better. but via crafting, you always have to buy or make these replicated items plate.realistically buying is the only real option. It would take 2-3 adventuring days or one session to afford it, or 75 days to craft it. 35 if you have help/bastion. and thats just the mundane part, and it would still cost you 750gp.
So this suggests you probably dont want to base whatever system you are using on item costs because then armor will always be not worth crafting, due to time.
a lot of this is leading back to why they chose magic replication to deal with this.
there are other solutions, but they likely involve a complex system to achieve the same thing.
before this UA, my hacks/homebrews involved artificers basically having a time dialation crafting space. (like inside of a bag of holding or something) and a crafting system based on tool proficiency rolls that allowed signifigantly more progress)
but that required a big magical ask (every artificer having access to limited room of time and space) which is probably as big an ask (power magic wise)as the current fabrication, and a whole new crafting/ability system for essentially only one class to use. It would also generally have interacted with other facets of the game economy, and theyd have to spend some amount of rest periods having artifcers rolling crafting, instead of it being the usual few seconds it is.
the plus side is it would feel a lot more, "i built this with my own hands" focused but is that what most artificer people even want?
the current replication has some rough spots, like debate over "enchantment" plans like weapon+1 2 3, (do they work on existing items) can you make/enhance armorer weapons, having to wait so long for certain items of the same powerlevel (weapon+1 at level 2, handwraps+1 at level 10?)
definitely not perfect, but they needed to do something somewhat similar to this in order for artificer to function without massive buy in to a certain game structure for dms.
but if you got something better, thats not too complex, and solves the issues that needed solving, i'd love to hear it.
It left us both feeling like they created the Armorer and then went, 'oh we need to have a class for this subclass... Artificer!', then created the Artificer class just to fit the subclass somewhere.
Are you aware that the Artificer was a class from 3.5e, 4e, and 5e and they are not new with this Unearthed Arcana? The Eberron Campaign Setting was released in 2004. This class is over 20 years old.
I was hoping we'd see another round of playtesting, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Eberron: Forge of the Artificer has been announced for August of 2025. With all the production requirements, I don't think they'll have time for another round.
Actually, the Alchemist featured in AD&D making Artificers much older. They were specialized spell casters but later - after the Sundering and Domain changes - Gond took over the profession from Mystra and Artifice was born. I played this character and then went back and played AD&D with a group. He is by far my favorite character. He was hired by Baulderian to create Alchemist Fire to burn down the forest of the Wild Elves in Maztica around Fort Flame but refused so Baulderian kicked him out of the expedition and left him to die. Instead, the Wild Elves murdered Baulderian and my Alchemist survived only to find the Elixir of Life which he has been sipping on for centuries to extend his own life or above the table allow me to continue playing an Alchemist because they are AWESOME! Anyway, 5e he got married to a Drow and some might say they have a toxic relationship... You'll have to read it, but they love each other despite all the bull.
For what it's worth, I thought doing away with Infusions was a great step in the right direction. The artificer feels less clunky and more like a nick-of-time kitbasher to create the effective tools and equipment for whatever challenge comes up.
Aw... but I liked the clunk of infusions. I guess that just goes to show that there's a lot of different ways to interpret the Artificer class.
However, I feel like it would've made for an awesome SUBclass called, say, 'Wonderworker' or something, who as you say can MacGuyver up all kinds of gear when the group needs it. Make that a flavour to choose, rather than a core feature. That's what subclasses are for, right? To give a solid identity to a class that's more of a conceptual framework?
The is how the Battle Smith should have been designed. Also, why no grenades for Artillerists?
For what it's worth, I thought doing away with Infusions was a great step in the right direction. The artificer feels less clunky and more like a nick-of-time kitbasher to create the effective tools and equipment for whatever challenge comes up.
There is no defined time requirement for Replicate Magic Item and no materials required. They are conjuring items from nothing.
The magic item crafting process, if you were creating a magic item from scratch, would be to create the base item first then instill it with magic. The Infusion mechanic felt like it was a quick and dirty, temporary version of the magic item crafting process.
I personally would prefer if they took the Replicate Magic Item ability, whatever it is called in the end, and require a physical item to replicate the magic item into instead of poofing items into being and disappearing them to cast one more spell a day.
The unearthed arcana artificer already struggles early, from 1-4. This would make them notcieably worse, as the main advantage they have from 1-4 is that they can have two pieces of high cost equipment.
And, levels 1-4 dont really last a lot of time objectively, so they have no advanatges in crafting or buying items. for example, crafting even studded leather armor(1 ac more than starter gear) would take 5 days of downtime. with 5 days of adventuring, you are probably level 3 or 4. you probably have had zero downtime, and you have very little money.
so basically, your level 2 feature, and your level 1 feature give virtually no value. You dont even start off with a shield, you cant even make a shield +1 because you dont have a shield. You basically can heavy a weapon +1, and a utility item (that is if you arent requiring them to obtain goggles and jugs and whatever before making utility items)
and you dont have more money than anyone else.
what is going to make up for this?
The reason they needed to get rid of the item requirement was because crafting in 5e does not actually work with adventuring or many parties. Especially at lower levels. platemail for example will always need 150 days to craft, essentially making this an item no one should ever actually craft. Its easier to buy this item. Even mainstream items like heavy xbow would take 5 days of downtime to craft. When does the average party get 5 days of downtime? after 10-20 days of adventuring? And thats ignoring the DMG advice for finding materials is 50% outside of cities and 75% in main cities, with 7 days between each attempt to find items.
in order for this to work, artificer would need a totally different means of obtaining items that could be done alongside your average adventuring day that wasnt particularly limited by DM or narrative considerations.
that requirement is what lead them to "poofing" a limited number of magic items.
So lets say you were going to do this, you would probably need to give artificer a strong new level 1-2 feature that competes with rage, martial arts, extra spells/slots/cantrips. (because even if you could craft every adventuring day, youd still be underpowered for the first 10 -20 days or so)
you would then have to create a system that allows them to craft while adventuring, and probably with scaling speed, without needing DM approval.
and that last part is kind of a big deal, because while the current one can only do this for 2-3 items in t1 to t3, even if it was just limited to common items, the artificer could probably give out a lot more items than 3 in that time frame, and mostly double the value of their gold. Which i dont think they were really interested in doing in these teirs
i just dont see them doing what would need to be done for it to work. They might revert to infusion, and then the artificer is back to being primarily an enchanter of items rather than a creator or inventor, whose power is basically decided by what items you can buy or find.
and 2014 artifcer doesnt really compete with 2024 classes, so you need to find a way to give them a power/versatility bump that isnt based on items (which it probably should be)
If you want them to work, you have to solve that question, how can they create items while adventuring without needing the DM to alter the narrative and pacing around them, at a pace that is relevant to the normal power progression
magic replication was their solution, whats yours?
I don't know... it was possible for my party and I to train the entire town of Phandalin in Alchemy and then convert it into an Alchemist Factory for a few months in-game. Each person helping cuts the time it takes to make potions down and we made a deal to certify everyone as Alchemist and Poisoners then gave them money to buy shops around the Realms to create our Franchise. It was really fun and then we had enough potions to completely ignore most of the Wild Magic and other hazards in the Underdark for Out of the Abyss! We rolled from LMoP into OotA for my 5e campaign.
Besides during the adventure, I made more with the help of the party during down time and then later on I started dosing monsters in a lab I built in Menzoberrazan. I was trying to make the Evil ones Good. There was some limited success before my wife, who is a Drow, intervened and took control of our company turning it into a Drug Cartel.
It left us both feeling like they created the Armorer and then went, 'oh we need to have a class for this subclass... Artificer!', then created the Artificer class just to fit the subclass somewhere.
Are you aware that the Artificer was a class from 3.5e, 4e, and 5e and they are not new with this Unearthed Arcana? The Eberron Campaign Setting was released in 2004. This class is over 20 years old.
I was hoping we'd see another round of playtesting, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Eberron: Forge of the Artificer has been announced for August of 2025. With all the production requirements, I don't think they'll have time for another round.
Actually, the Alchemist featured in AD&D making Artificers much older. They were specialized spell casters but later - after the Sundering and Domain changes - Gond took over the profession from Mystra and Artifice was born. I played this character and then went back and played AD&D with a group. He is by far my favorite character. He was hired by Baulderian to create Alchemist Fire to burn down the forest of the Wild Elves in Maztica around Fort Flame but refused so Baulderian kicked him out of the expedition and left him to die. Instead, the Wild Elves murdered Baulderian and my Alchemist survived only to find the Elixir of Life which he has been sipping on for centuries to extend his own life or above the table allow me to continue playing an Alchemist because they are AWESOME! Anyway, 5e he got married to a Drow and some might say they have a toxic relationship... You'll have to read it, but they love each other despite all the bull.
For what it's worth, I thought doing away with Infusions was a great step in the right direction. The artificer feels less clunky and more like a nick-of-time kitbasher to create the effective tools and equipment for whatever challenge comes up.
Aw... but I liked the clunk of infusions. I guess that just goes to show that there's a lot of different ways to interpret the Artificer class.
However, I feel like it would've made for an awesome SUBclass called, say, 'Wonderworker' or something, who as you say can MacGuyver up all kinds of gear when the group needs it. Make that a flavour to choose, rather than a core feature. That's what subclasses are for, right? To give a solid identity to a class that's more of a conceptual framework?
The is how the Battle Smith should have been designed. Also, why no grenades for Artillerists?
For what it's worth, I thought doing away with Infusions was a great step in the right direction. The artificer feels less clunky and more like a nick-of-time kitbasher to create the effective tools and equipment for whatever challenge comes up.
There is no defined time requirement for Replicate Magic Item and no materials required. They are conjuring items from nothing.
The magic item crafting process, if you were creating a magic item from scratch, would be to create the base item first then instill it with magic. The Infusion mechanic felt like it was a quick and dirty, temporary version of the magic item crafting process.
I personally would prefer if they took the Replicate Magic Item ability, whatever it is called in the end, and require a physical item to replicate the magic item into instead of poofing items into being and disappearing them to cast one more spell a day.
The unearthed arcana artificer already struggles early, from 1-4. This would make them notcieably worse, as the main advantage they have from 1-4 is that they can have two pieces of high cost equipment.
And, levels 1-4 dont really last a lot of time objectively, so they have no advanatges in crafting or buying items. for example, crafting even studded leather armor(1 ac more than starter gear) would take 5 days of downtime. with 5 days of adventuring, you are probably level 3 or 4. you probably have had zero downtime, and you have very little money.
so basically, your level 2 feature, and your level 1 feature give virtually no value. You dont even start off with a shield, you cant even make a shield +1 because you dont have a shield. You basically can heavy a weapon +1, and a utility item (that is if you arent requiring them to obtain goggles and jugs and whatever before making utility items)
and you dont have more money than anyone else.
what is going to make up for this?
The reason they needed to get rid of the item requirement was because crafting in 5e does not actually work with adventuring or many parties. Especially at lower levels. platemail for example will always need 150 days to craft, essentially making this an item no one should ever actually craft. Its easier to buy this item. Even mainstream items like heavy xbow would take 5 days of downtime to craft. When does the average party get 5 days of downtime? after 10-20 days of adventuring? And thats ignoring the DMG advice for finding materials is 50% outside of cities and 75% in main cities, with 7 days between each attempt to find items.
in order for this to work, artificer would need a totally different means of obtaining items that could be done alongside your average adventuring day that wasnt particularly limited by DM or narrative considerations.
that requirement is what lead them to "poofing" a limited number of magic items.
So lets say you were going to do this, you would probably need to give artificer a strong new level 1-2 feature that competes with rage, martial arts, extra spells/slots/cantrips. (because even if you could craft every adventuring day, youd still be underpowered for the first 10 -20 days or so)
you would then have to create a system that allows them to craft while adventuring, and probably with scaling speed, without needing DM approval.
and that last part is kind of a big deal, because while the current one can only do this for 2-3 items in t1 to t3, even if it was just limited to common items, the artificer could probably give out a lot more items than 3 in that time frame, and mostly double the value of their gold. Which i dont think they were really interested in doing in these teirs
i just dont see them doing what would need to be done for it to work. They might revert to infusion, and then the artificer is back to being primarily an enchanter of items rather than a creator or inventor, whose power is basically decided by what items you can buy or find.
and 2014 artifcer doesnt really compete with 2024 classes, so you need to find a way to give them a power/versatility bump that isnt based on items (which it probably should be)
If you want them to work, you have to solve that question, how can they create items while adventuring without needing the DM to alter the narrative and pacing around them, at a pace that is relevant to the normal power progression
magic replication was their solution, whats yours?
I don't know... it was possible for my party and I to train the entire town of Phandalin in Alchemy and then convert it into an Alchemist Factory for a few months in-game. Each person helping cuts the time it takes to make potions down and we made a deal to certify everyone as Alchemist and Poisoners then gave them money to buy shops around the Realms to create our Franchise. It was really fun and then we had enough potions to completely ignore most of the Wild Magic and other hazards in the Underdark for Out of the Abyss! We rolled from LMoP into OotA for my 5e campaign.
Besides during the adventure, I made more with the help of the party during down time and then later on I started dosing monsters in a lab I built in Menzoberrazan. I was trying to make the Evil ones Good. There was some limited success before my wife, who is a Drow, intervened and took control of our company turning it into a Drug Cartel.
so, to be clear, i was referring to the unearthed arcana artificer in comparison to the other 2024 classes at low levels. And, i wasnt saying you cant make artificer work if you are dedicating your whole campaign towards it.
Also the new crafting rules only make it faster up to one person. And npc crafting rules and -layer crafting rules are generally not the same. You can see this with bastions who can only craft limited items, only at certain rarities, and only once you reach certain levels.
the same way most npcs dont gain levels and are just a veteran forever.
but even regardless to all that, if you had all the alchemists go out and adventure, and they were built like PCs, they would have gained more resources faster.
At the end of the day, yall had fun, so it was all good, but it doesnt represent the way most games will run, and the artificer needs to be generally as good as the other classes at the normal game.
It left us both feeling like they created the Armorer and then went, 'oh we need to have a class for this subclass... Artificer!', then created the Artificer class just to fit the subclass somewhere.
Are you aware that the Artificer was a class from 3.5e, 4e, and 5e and they are not new with this Unearthed Arcana? The Eberron Campaign Setting was released in 2004. This class is over 20 years old.
I was hoping we'd see another round of playtesting, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Eberron: Forge of the Artificer has been announced for August of 2025. With all the production requirements, I don't think they'll have time for another round.
Actually, the Alchemist featured in AD&D making Artificers much older. They were specialized spell casters but later - after the Sundering and Domain changes - Gond took over the profession from Mystra and Artifice was born. I played this character and then went back and played AD&D with a group. He is by far my favorite character. He was hired by Baulderian to create Alchemist Fire to burn down the forest of the Wild Elves in Maztica around Fort Flame but refused so Baulderian kicked him out of the expedition and left him to die. Instead, the Wild Elves murdered Baulderian and my Alchemist survived only to find the Elixir of Life which he has been sipping on for centuries to extend his own life or above the table allow me to continue playing an Alchemist because they are AWESOME! Anyway, 5e he got married to a Drow and some might say they have a toxic relationship... You'll have to read it, but they love each other despite all the bull.
The AD&D Alchemist may or may not have influenced the Artificer, but the Artificer and the Magewright (NPC class) were introduced in 3.5 as part of the Eberron Campaign Setting created by Keith Baker. The Artificer and the Magewright were part of the explanation of how the setting had an abundance of low-tier to mid-tier magic items but then had the normal amount of high-end magic items. As far as I know, the classes are independent for the Alchemist.
Wizards of the Coast ran a contest for a new fantasy setting and Kieth Baker's won.
You can find Kieth Baker's Blog here where he talks about different aspects of Eberron.
It left us both feeling like they created the Armorer and then went, 'oh we need to have a class for this subclass... Artificer!', then created the Artificer class just to fit the subclass somewhere.
Are you aware that the Artificer was a class from 3.5e, 4e, and 5e and they are not new with this Unearthed Arcana? The Eberron Campaign Setting was released in 2004. This class is over 20 years old.
I was hoping we'd see another round of playtesting, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Eberron: Forge of the Artificer has been announced for August of 2025. With all the production requirements, I don't think they'll have time for another round.
Actually, the Alchemist featured in AD&D making Artificers much older. They were specialized spell casters but later - after the Sundering and Domain changes - Gond took over the profession from Mystra and Artifice was born. I played this character and then went back and played AD&D with a group. He is by far my favorite character. He was hired by Baulderian to create Alchemist Fire to burn down the forest of the Wild Elves in Maztica around Fort Flame but refused so Baulderian kicked him out of the expedition and left him to die. Instead, the Wild Elves murdered Baulderian and my Alchemist survived only to find the Elixir of Life which he has been sipping on for centuries to extend his own life or above the table allow me to continue playing an Alchemist because they are AWESOME! Anyway, 5e he got married to a Drow and some might say they have a toxic relationship... You'll have to read it, but they love each other despite all the bull.
The AD&D Alchemist may or may not have influenced the Artificer, but the Artificer and the Magewright (NPC class) were introduced in 3.5 as part of the Eberron Campaign Setting created by Keith Baker. The Artificer and the Magewright were part of the explanation of how the setting had an abundance of low-tier to mid-tier magic items but then had the normal amount of high-end magic items. As far as I know, the classes are independent for the Alchemist.
Wizards of the Coast ran a contest for a new fantasy setting and Kieth Baker's won.
You can find Kieth Baker's Blog here where he talks about different aspects of Eberron.
I am glad you replied because I found this article on the subject:
And yeah, you are correct the Artificer came in during 3.5e for Eberron. It is explained in Tasha's Cauldron for the Artificer class that Alchemist was the first of the Artificers. Anyway, I never really got into Eberron. It was okay and all but not entirely my favorite setting. It had stuff I really liked such as the Alchemist and Warforged though.
In AD&D they could create potions that mimic spells up to Level 6 but these potions did not act like magic and thus required no verbal component. It was the most free form version of Alchemist and is my favorite because of it. All I would need to do is research any spell like a Wizard would giving me similar versatility and then craft the potion which took more time to make than a spell does. The benefit is anyone can quaff one of my potions to cast the spell and they are persistent.
In 3.5e they nerfed Alchemist. They got Unstable Brew which is nice because then I get extra potions that do not count against my spells which I would distill in to potions as the AD&D Alchemist. However, they also gave them bombs and stuff but ultimately limited the types of potions Alchemist could create.
In 5e they nerfed the Alchemist even further by taking away even more potions. Forcing them to be actual casters instead of potion brewers with a laboratory. Then they made the elixirs they can make random so that there is no player agency over the subclass abilities.
Now for the 6e UA they get some player agency back but they have access to even less potions and non-alchemist can make everything they can if not almost everything.
It just seems to me like they hate Alchemy. Maybe Tasha needs to die or something? I don't know but giving the Alchemist overall less potions is horrible.
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Really disappointed with the timing of the unearthed arcana for the artificer. There is a lot of feedback I would have liked to share but the timing of the release being over the holidays prohibited me from play testing the material and having feedback window close so early in the new year prevented me from giving any feedback at all.
Honestly, I could go for another UA test myself. I only got to play a single One Shot and after my game yesterday another player and I were discussing our feedback. I want to do another One Shot now and so do they. We both love the class but think Alchemist and Battle Smith need significant reworks to make them something people would actually play which Armorer is utterly broken. I mean we both love it as a subclass, but it is S-Tier even when compared to the other classes subclasses. Artillerist is pretty solid too. Not as utterly overpowered as Armorer but solid.
It left us both feeling like they created the Armorer and then went, 'oh we need to have a class for this subclass... Artificer!', then created the Artificer class just to fit the subclass somewhere. Now they had a new class though, so they needed more subclasses and thus Artillerist was born. By the time they got to Battle Smith they kind of ran out of creative juices and for good measure they haphazardly threw Alchemist in there because of course and there isn't a healer subclass.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
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I playtested the UA Artificer also, and was out of town only to return to discover that the feedback survey is already closed. I didn't get any notifications like all the previous feedback surveys. - I hope people responded well.
i like to create things ... Check out my magic items!
Psionicist Subclass and Psionic Disciplines (REAL Psychic Powers)That is why I keep starting threads for it. I feel like the feedback was too short.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Where on earth are you getting the armorer being OVERpowered? They've long been said to be lacking in offensive power, and in the campaign I've been playing one in, I was clearly dead last in damage output compared to the rest of the party for a long time. The changes made in the UA work out to a net negative despite their intro saying they buffed it.
It isn't the DPS subclass, but it is still one of the best-rounded subclasses so far as I have seen imho. Maybe try using your infusions to cheese up your DPS and choose spells which do the same?
Nonetheless I understand where you are coming from. The Artificer isn't a Tank, Healer, or DPS class. It subverts those styles of play by navigating around rules which would hinder those styles of play. The party doesn't pick up an Alchemist because they need a healer. They nab one because they need heals while in the Underdark which won't be affected by Wild Magic. Parties don't select an Armorer because they need a Tank. They grab one so they can have a tanker utility caster who can bypass the chaos of the Far Realms by activating their heavily infused armor. An Artillerist isn't prone to be taken along for the adventure because they can output tons of damage. They are selected because they can set up a position, have targets lured into their trap, and attack from all sides to hold a spot on the battlefield. As for the Battle Smith... I don't know. They have a shiny spider...?
Anyway, the reason I like the class so much is that it isn't part of the "holy trinity" of RPG classes. It sort of can do all of those things but does it differently to bypass some restriction that would hinder a class that does fit one of those three categories. This is also why I despise Alchemist being forced to rely on rngesus. I don't believe the holy trinity or rngesus is good gaming and I like to tinker with my builds to make something completely unviable work in some completely amazing way that only works so spectacularly in some special circumstance where the build is the only reasonable way to overcome the challenge.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Are you aware that the Artificer was a class from 3.5e, 4e, and 5e and they are not new with this Unearthed Arcana? The Eberron Campaign Setting was released in 2004. This class is over 20 years old.
I was hoping we'd see another round of playtesting, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Eberron: Forge of the Artificer has been announced for August of 2025. With all the production requirements, I don't think they'll have time for another round.
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Let's hope they've taken at least some of the survey to heart. I know it is too much to hope that the new magic item replication will be seamlessly integrated into the old class and subclasses, but hopefully it'll have some of the more apparent bugs we've noticed filed down and polished.
Incidentally, in the article discussing the Eberron book, there was artwork of the Artificer with each subclass depicted in a recogniseable fashion - except there were five figures, with one of them looking mighty... archival? Maybe there's a surprise for us yet :)
One thing I'm beating myself up a bit about over the survey, is that I had such a (good?) idea a few days later. There's been a lot of comments about the class losing the expertise in tools, but since nobody is allowed to have expertise in tools anymore, I can see why that'd stick around. However... what if Artificers took a page from the Bard and became "Jack of all Tools"? You get half your proficiency bonus on every tool you're not proficient in? I feel like that'd be pretty fun.
For what it's worth, I thought doing away with Infusions was a great step in the right direction. The artificer feels less clunky and more like a nick-of-time kitbasher to create the effective tools and equipment for whatever challenge comes up.
i like to create things ... Check out my magic items!
Psionicist Subclass and Psionic Disciplines (REAL Psychic Powers)Aw... but I liked the clunk of infusions. I guess that just goes to show that there's a lot of different ways to interpret the Artificer class.
However, I feel like it would've made for an awesome SUBclass called, say, 'Wonderworker' or something, who as you say can MacGuyver up all kinds of gear when the group needs it. Make that a flavour to choose, rather than a core feature. That's what subclasses are for, right? To give a solid identity to a class that's more of a conceptual framework?
There is no defined time requirement for Replicate Magic Item and no materials required. They are conjuring items from nothing.
The magic item crafting process, if you were creating a magic item from scratch, would be to create the base item first then instill it with magic. The Infusion mechanic felt like it was a quick and dirty, temporary version of the magic item crafting process.
I personally would prefer if they took the Replicate Magic Item ability, whatever it is called in the end, and require a physical item to replicate the magic item into instead of poofing items into being and disappearing them to cast one more spell a day.
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The unearthed arcana artificer already struggles early, from 1-4. This would make them notcieably worse, as the main advantage they have from 1-4 is that they can have two pieces of high cost equipment.
And, levels 1-4 dont really last a lot of time objectively, so they have no advanatges in crafting or buying items. for example, crafting even studded leather armor(1 ac more than starter gear) would take 5 days of downtime. with 5 days of adventuring, you are probably level 3 or 4. you probably have had zero downtime, and you have very little money.
so basically, your level 2 feature, and your level 1 feature give virtually no value. You dont even start off with a shield, you cant even make a shield +1 because you dont have a shield. You basically can heavy a weapon +1, and a utility item (that is if you arent requiring them to obtain goggles and jugs and whatever before making utility items)
and you dont have more money than anyone else.
what is going to make up for this?
The reason they needed to get rid of the item requirement was because crafting in 5e does not actually work with adventuring or many parties. Especially at lower levels. platemail for example will always need 150 days to craft, essentially making this an item no one should ever actually craft. Its easier to buy this item. Even mainstream items like heavy xbow would take 5 days of downtime to craft. When does the average party get 5 days of downtime? after 10-20 days of adventuring? And thats ignoring the DMG advice for finding materials is 50% outside of cities and 75% in main cities, with 7 days between each attempt to find items.
in order for this to work, artificer would need a totally different means of obtaining items that could be done alongside your average adventuring day that wasnt particularly limited by DM or narrative considerations.
that requirement is what lead them to "poofing" a limited number of magic items.
So lets say you were going to do this, you would probably need to give artificer a strong new level 1-2 feature that competes with rage, martial arts, extra spells/slots/cantrips. (because even if you could craft every adventuring day, youd still be underpowered for the first 10 -20 days or so)
you would then have to create a system that allows them to craft while adventuring, and probably with scaling speed, without needing DM approval.
and that last part is kind of a big deal, because while the current one can only do this for 2-3 items in t1 to t3, even if it was just limited to common items, the artificer could probably give out a lot more items than 3 in that time frame, and mostly double the value of their gold. Which i dont think they were really interested in doing in these teirs
i just dont see them doing what would need to be done for it to work. They might revert to infusion, and then the artificer is back to being primarily an enchanter of items rather than a creator or inventor, whose power is basically decided by what items you can buy or find.
and 2014 artifcer doesnt really compete with 2024 classes, so you need to find a way to give them a power/versatility bump that isnt based on items (which it probably should be)
If you want them to work, you have to solve that question, how can they create items while adventuring without needing the DM to alter the narrative and pacing around them, at a pace that is relevant to the normal power progression
magic replication was their solution, whats yours?
So to give some context, to really look at how artifcer might need to work, we got to look at some economies, not necessarily to profit, but to obatin power through items.
basically first off adventuring is designed to be the most profitable/progressive thing you can be doing.
players will earn more money, gain more experience, and more items by doing adventuring than anything else given the same time
a player, based on the monster loot tables and guidance should roughly be getting, conservatively asuuming 4-10 monsters killed per player
Cr 0-4: 40-100 gold per adventuring day and +125 gold per session. they will spend around 7-12 adventuring days in this range
Cr-5-10 360-900 gold per adventuring day and +1100 gold per session they will spend about 21-30 days in this range
Cr 11-16 4400-11000gp per adventurimg day +9000 gold per session they will spend about 23-33 days in this range
Cr 17+ 36000-90000gp per adventuring day + 82000 gold per session the rest of their days in this range.
on top of that they will get magical items per each level range.
crafting on the other hand; works mostly based on the item
non magical equipment, crafting can save you 5 gp per day
common magical can save you 10gp per day
uncommon magical can save you 20gp per day
rare magical can save you 40gp per day
very rare ' ' ' 160gp
legendary 250gp
so as you can see crafting is designed to be the worst way to obtain items,
and for crafting items which incorporate other items, you either pay for, or provide the item likely via crafting. which is always less effiecient time and money wise than buying it, if its non magical.
for example, in the time it takes you to make a heavy xbow, 5 days, you can earn 200 gold taking it extremely easy. not only that, you will probably gain 3-4 levels.
obtaining mundane items via crafting is almost never worth doing, unless you cant adventure.
this is fine in general the game wants to promote adventure and downtime activities are meant to mostly be preparing for the next adventure and spending money.
but as long as the artificer exists in this paradigm, getting mundane items by means other than buying them in a store is generally really bad.
crafting magic items is worthwhile mostly because its the only way to get items you specifically want, and based on the time, it really only is feasible for common-rare items.
So what this means is, without a drastic design shift, base items are shop and find. Which isnt going to lean into the artificer Iron Man/Ateam/woodshop class/magical inventor fantasy, if they are limited by normal base items aquisition.
its not going to be, i crafted my own armor, its going to be I bought my armor at Target. and maybe i tweaked it. with infusions, i tweaked it by touching it once per day.
So essentially the same thing as this UA except you have to find a store to buy your gear before you can make use of most of your leveled features. And if your DM is trying to limit gp or item gain, you are severely limited.
So, lets say you want to change it Up? they would need to be able to craft at least 3-4 basic items in the 7-12 days of adventuring that would be level 1-5. And by basic items we mean improvments on the average classes' starting equipment, for classes that are supposed to be good at it.
By level 3, (2-3 adventurimg days)
In terms of the armorer, they need to have an armor that is at least 17 AC, or they arent really getting much value out of heavy armor. thats splint mail, normally 20 days to craft, but 10 days for them if they started at 3, but they need to already have this at 3 for it to matter. and probably 50 g for a side weapon that isnt armor specific (especially since they likely are using blade cantrips/true strike instead of the armor weapons)
battlesmith needs magical martial weapons of their choice, and fairly decent armor
soo from level 1-4
lets say they need to be able to create about 100g of mundane item value a day while adventuring, that you probably dont want to be able to sold legally to npcs, and is not limited by DMs (they will always have fiat, but this means its normally a not thing they will mess with, like martial arts, or rage, or spell slots)
then from 5+ armorers should really have full plate, or the top armor available if not better. but via crafting, you always have to buy or make these replicated items plate.realistically buying is the only real option. It would take 2-3 adventuring days or one session to afford it, or 75 days to craft it. 35 if you have help/bastion. and thats just the mundane part, and it would still cost you 750gp.
So this suggests you probably dont want to base whatever system you are using on item costs because then armor will always be not worth crafting, due to time.
a lot of this is leading back to why they chose magic replication to deal with this.
there are other solutions, but they likely involve a complex system to achieve the same thing.
before this UA, my hacks/homebrews involved artificers basically having a time dialation crafting space. (like inside of a bag of holding or something) and a crafting system based on tool proficiency rolls that allowed signifigantly more progress)
but that required a big magical ask (every artificer having access to limited room of time and space) which is probably as big an ask (power magic wise)as the current fabrication, and a whole new crafting/ability system for essentially only one class to use. It would also generally have interacted with other facets of the game economy, and theyd have to spend some amount of rest periods having artifcers rolling crafting, instead of it being the usual few seconds it is.
the plus side is it would feel a lot more, "i built this with my own hands" focused but is that what most artificer people even want?
the current replication has some rough spots, like debate over "enchantment" plans like weapon+1 2 3, (do they work on existing items) can you make/enhance armorer weapons, having to wait so long for certain items of the same powerlevel (weapon+1 at level 2, handwraps+1 at level 10?)
definitely not perfect, but they needed to do something somewhat similar to this in order for artificer to function without massive buy in to a certain game structure for dms.
but if you got something better, thats not too complex, and solves the issues that needed solving, i'd love to hear it.
Actually, the Alchemist featured in AD&D making Artificers much older. They were specialized spell casters but later - after the Sundering and Domain changes - Gond took over the profession from Mystra and Artifice was born. I played this character and then went back and played AD&D with a group. He is by far my favorite character. He was hired by Baulderian to create Alchemist Fire to burn down the forest of the Wild Elves in Maztica around Fort Flame but refused so Baulderian kicked him out of the expedition and left him to die. Instead, the Wild Elves murdered Baulderian and my Alchemist survived only to find the Elixir of Life which he has been sipping on for centuries to extend his own life or above the table allow me to continue playing an Alchemist because they are AWESOME! Anyway, 5e he got married to a Drow and some might say they have a toxic relationship... You'll have to read it, but they love each other despite all the bull.
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The is how the Battle Smith should have been designed. Also, why no grenades for Artillerists?
I don't know... it was possible for my party and I to train the entire town of Phandalin in Alchemy and then convert it into an Alchemist Factory for a few months in-game. Each person helping cuts the time it takes to make potions down and we made a deal to certify everyone as Alchemist and Poisoners then gave them money to buy shops around the Realms to create our Franchise. It was really fun and then we had enough potions to completely ignore most of the Wild Magic and other hazards in the Underdark for Out of the Abyss! We rolled from LMoP into OotA for my 5e campaign.
Besides during the adventure, I made more with the help of the party during down time and then later on I started dosing monsters in a lab I built in Menzoberrazan. I was trying to make the Evil ones Good. There was some limited success before my wife, who is a Drow, intervened and took control of our company turning it into a Drug Cartel.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
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so, to be clear, i was referring to the unearthed arcana artificer in comparison to the other 2024 classes at low levels. And, i wasnt saying you cant make artificer work if you are dedicating your whole campaign towards it.
Also the new crafting rules only make it faster up to one person. And npc crafting rules and -layer crafting rules are generally not the same. You can see this with bastions who can only craft limited items, only at certain rarities, and only once you reach certain levels.
the same way most npcs dont gain levels and are just a veteran forever.
but even regardless to all that, if you had all the alchemists go out and adventure, and they were built like PCs, they would have gained more resources faster.
At the end of the day, yall had fun, so it was all good, but it doesnt represent the way most games will run, and the artificer needs to be generally as good as the other classes at the normal game.
The AD&D Alchemist may or may not have influenced the Artificer, but the Artificer and the Magewright (NPC class) were introduced in 3.5 as part of the Eberron Campaign Setting created by Keith Baker. The Artificer and the Magewright were part of the explanation of how the setting had an abundance of low-tier to mid-tier magic items but then had the normal amount of high-end magic items. As far as I know, the classes are independent for the Alchemist.
Wizards of the Coast ran a contest for a new fantasy setting and Kieth Baker's won.
You can find Kieth Baker's Blog here where he talks about different aspects of Eberron.
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I am glad you replied because I found this article on the subject:
https://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2020/02/class-struggles-alchemist.html?m=1
And yeah, you are correct the Artificer came in during 3.5e for Eberron. It is explained in Tasha's Cauldron for the Artificer class that Alchemist was the first of the Artificers. Anyway, I never really got into Eberron. It was okay and all but not entirely my favorite setting. It had stuff I really liked such as the Alchemist and Warforged though.
In AD&D they could create potions that mimic spells up to Level 6 but these potions did not act like magic and thus required no verbal component. It was the most free form version of Alchemist and is my favorite because of it. All I would need to do is research any spell like a Wizard would giving me similar versatility and then craft the potion which took more time to make than a spell does. The benefit is anyone can quaff one of my potions to cast the spell and they are persistent.
In 3.5e they nerfed Alchemist. They got Unstable Brew which is nice because then I get extra potions that do not count against my spells which I would distill in to potions as the AD&D Alchemist. However, they also gave them bombs and stuff but ultimately limited the types of potions Alchemist could create.
In 5e they nerfed the Alchemist even further by taking away even more potions. Forcing them to be actual casters instead of potion brewers with a laboratory. Then they made the elixirs they can make random so that there is no player agency over the subclass abilities.
Now for the 6e UA they get some player agency back but they have access to even less potions and non-alchemist can make everything they can if not almost everything.
It just seems to me like they hate Alchemy. Maybe Tasha needs to die or something? I don't know but giving the Alchemist overall less potions is horrible.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.