The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
It's not hard to understand the 1 level Fighter dip; particularly if instead of a dip someone "starts" as a Fighter so they get Heavy Armor before taking levels in their actual main class. And this still doesn't support the idea that 2014 Hexblade was actually well put together if it was such a good 1 level dip.
The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
It's not hard to understand the 1 level Fighter dip; particularly if instead of a dip someone "starts" as a Fighter so they get Heavy Armor before taking levels in their actual main class. And this still doesn't support the idea that 2014 Hexblade was actually well put together if it was such a good 1 level dip.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
It's not hard to understand the 1 level Fighter dip; particularly if instead of a dip someone "starts" as a Fighter so they get Heavy Armor before taking levels in their actual main class. And this still doesn't support the idea that 2014 Hexblade was actually well put together if it was such a good 1 level dip.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
Streamers aren't flawless. & they are prone to quirky biases(Treantmonk w/Mage Slayer 2024, Pack Tactics with 2014 Conjure spells & other minion-summoning spells, etc), so relying on external opinions is not a universal strategy.
I personally found that the Hexblade was mostly used to make Hexadins, Coffeelocks & other metagamey choices that were hard to justify via backstories & in-game experiences, so I'm all for changing it. I don't agree with HOW it's been changed, per se, but something had to be done after Pact of the Blade got its upgrade.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
no, the problem is/was that with medium armor it would be flat out better than anything else.
You keep making the very incorrect assumption that the 1 level dip was the only problem with the hexblade.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
The 1 level dip was a 2014 issue. For 2024 the issue is the differences in the Warlock subclasses when measured against each other. As it stands no one Warlock subclass is "best" for Bladelock and that is how it should stay. The focus should be on thematic mechanics that fit the Patron and inspire your imagination to create a variety of builds and not funnel everyone into "best" cookie cutter playstyles.
The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
The 1 level dip was a 2014 issue. For 2024 the issue is the differences in the Warlock subclasses when measured against each other. As is stands no one Warlock subclass is "best" for Bladelock and that is how it should stay. The focus should be on thematic mechanics that fit the Patron and inspire your imagination to create a variety of builds and not funnel everyone into "best" cookie cutter playstyles.
No one can agree on the thematic mechanics, tho.
Mostly because they cling to the idea of a HexBLADE, not giving any credence a HEXblade, without everyone, including WotC, considering a HEXBLADE, metaphorically speaking.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
It's not hard to understand the 1 level Fighter dip; particularly if instead of a dip someone "starts" as a Fighter so they get Heavy Armor before taking levels in their actual main class. And this still doesn't support the idea that 2014 Hexblade was actually well put together if it was such a good 1 level dip.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
i watch d4 from time to time, But d4 is no god, he has his opinions, based on his own metrics, but d4 doesnt present himself as a man seeking balance, but as a guy who loves to optimize. and regardless of fighter's possible one level. dip ability, that doesnt mean hexblade 2014 is a fine dip. IF one thing is an outlier, that doesnt mean everything being an outlier is fine. Also i have disagreed with d4's takes many times, he is not inherently more right than anyone else because he runs a youtube channel. He isnt pulling things out of his butt, but he isn't the truth of dnd either. And he also has a bias, he prefers a game with lots of powerful and effective multiclassing. Its what brings him joy. but lookin at this:
even d4 admits hexblade curse was too powerful, soo i dunno homey
but really, you are making this about 2014 dips, My discusssion is based on 2024 game balance. Hexblade has no greater problem surviving than other melee classes without medium armor, so why should they have it? they already do above average martial damage, the 2024 hexblade offers extra control via hindering hex, and they are performing similarly defensively to martial subclasses who arent specifically focused on defense.
Why should they have high dpr, higher survivability, full mage progression, and top end martial tank potential?
Who are you comparing hexblade to, that it falls flat in comparison to? What is 'enough' survivability to you? should it be at battelmasters level of surviavbility/dpr/control? monk?ranger?
The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
It's not hard to understand the 1 level Fighter dip; particularly if instead of a dip someone "starts" as a Fighter so they get Heavy Armor before taking levels in their actual main class. And this still doesn't support the idea that 2014 Hexblade was actually well put together if it was such a good 1 level dip.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
Just because getting Heavy Armor and Action Surge is statistically better doesn't mean the 2014 Hexblade wasn't overly frontloaded.
The fact that it’s the most popular does not definitively disprove the idea it was broken, and arguably supports the point it was too good if it had a major lead. Bladelocks needed a tune up so their spells and weapons were both effective. Defensively, d8 Hit Die, Light/Mage Armor, and the personal bag of tricks each subclass has are enough to keep you standing unless you forget you’re a damage build, not a tank.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
It's not hard to understand the 1 level Fighter dip; particularly if instead of a dip someone "starts" as a Fighter so they get Heavy Armor before taking levels in their actual main class. And this still doesn't support the idea that 2014 Hexblade was actually well put together if it was such a good 1 level dip.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
Just because getting Heavy Armor and Action Surge is statistically better doesn't mean the 2014 Hexblade wasn't overly frontloaded.
What I want to mean is that the 2014 level deep on Hexblade is over and now Its 1 Level Fighter deep that is even better. Hexblade 2014 without multiclass was never a issue.
Just because getting Heavy Armor and Action Surge is statistically better doesn't mean the 2014 Hexblade wasn't overly frontloaded.
Heavy Armor is over-rated. It requires you to do a STR-based build, and STR-based builds just aren't that good. DEX is better than STR, so Medium armour is better than Heavy for the vast majority of classes.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
LOL Streamers make mistakes all the time in their "analysis", their job is to entertain, not to be accurate or truthful. They sell the feeling of being OMG SOO POWERFUL! or "I know something you don't, bask in how much smarter I am than you". They all also have their own biases, assumptions, and quirks.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
LOL Streamers make mistakes all the time in their "analysis", their job is to entertain, not to be accurate or truthful. They sell the feeling of being OMG SOO POWERFUL! or "I know something you don't, bask in how much smarter I am than you". They all also have their own biases, assumptions, and quirks.
Everyone makes mistakes, but the D&D creators play a crucial role in guiding the brand in the right direction — it’s their full-time job to analyze, design, and engage with the community. Yet, I see a lot of so-called "experts" here offering nothing but criticism, often without any real arguments or constructive input.
Their analysis and opinions still matter, even if you don’t always agree. Most of us are here trying to contribute in a constructive way — just like they are — because, at the end of the day, we all care about the game.
A well-targeted changes to bring the key feature of Hexblade could make it shine again.
except you (and they) seem to think that the problem is 1 level dips. That was certainly A problem, but not THE problem with 2014 hexblade.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
LOL Streamers make mistakes all the time in their "analysis", their job is to entertain, not to be accurate or truthful. They sell the feeling of being OMG SOO POWERFUL! or "I know something you don't, bask in how much smarter I am than you". They all also have their own biases, assumptions, and quirks.
Everyone makes mistakes, but the D&D creators play a crucial role in guiding the brand in the right direction — it’s their full-time job to analyze, design, and engage with the community. Yet, I see a lot of so-called "experts" here offering nothing but criticism, often without any real arguments or constructive input.
Their analysis and opinions still matter, even if you don’t always agree. Most of us are here trying to contribute in a constructive way — just like they are — because, at the end of the day, we all care about the game.
A well-targeted changes to bring the key feature of Hexblade could make it shine again.
Their analysis and opinions are better than no analysis, but many people in forums like these and elsewhere have also done analysis, and have opinions, so it becomes about the reasons, and data. Most of these guys have only given their first impressions of hexblade, and have not tested them, or even done a full analysis yet. They also are not saying the same things you are saying.
Some people disagree with you, or the authorities you trust, that doesnt mean they are not being constructive, being critical is the cornerstone of any peer review or analysis.
I have said what i think are the things that need to change, (primarily hexblade curses, duration, application, and possibly some free casts of spells for t1-t2)
What makes you think hexblade wont shine? It offers a strong spell list for attack based players, it offers increased AC in melee. (more than you would normally have with heavy or medium armor alone), damage reduction, incentives to be in melee, offensive and defensive, auperior chase, and a very easy and strong debuff to saves.
gameplay wise, i think this hexblade already surpasses the old hexblade. I'd also rather play this hexblade as a melee than the other subclasses, maybe archfey for tricksy/dodge style.
the reason im pushing on certain ideas, like:
needing medium armor and shields, is because it over performs, with them, reduces the build differentiation for the class, and undermines the subclass identity and gameplay.
The subclass, as it stands now encourages melee play, staying close to your target, and having a target. If you have 17-18 ac with no effort you reduce the imcentives that are the core if its gameplay/design. (a melee range attack based subclass)
And, as soon as you incorprate shields into the class, you basically make eldritch blast the most efficient way to play (with a shield). The class has no innate weapon based boosts (like fighting styles or weapon masteries) so eldritch blast offers a 1 handed d10 dice, which eventually scales to 4 hits, a push option with repelling blast, there is no good reason not to use eldritch blast with a shield, which undermines the whole current subclass concept, of a weapon using melee focused playstyle. The main reason to use pact of the blade, is essentially to take advantage of melee weapon features. (otherwise eldritch blast is superior) which essentially all revolve around fighting with two hands, either by dual wielding, polearms, or gwm.
and lastly, the balance issue. giving hexblade access to medium+shields makes it able to get good AC, with minimal investment in dex. This makes it able to get upper teir consistent martial damage, full caster spellcasting power, AC and Con with only a 2 stat investment. Thats not balanced.based on it power levels. It doesnt need this to be a powerful class or to do its job.
As for pushing back on a PB damage rider, the class already has high teir single target martial damage potential, adding even more would be a problem as a single class, not to mention PB damage on hit, 3-5 times a day, is a huge boost for any multiattack build, (especially charisma) this would only unbalance multiclassing even more.sorlock, sorcadin, warladin, hexblade dominance. (much like before)
IMO this is constructive feedback, because those changes would be destructive to the class design, and the game balance. i really hope they dont add medium/shields to hexblade as it stands, or a blanket damage buff.
its fine they can get them via multiclass or features, as anyone else can also do that, and give up some progression, but baseline? no reason.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
LOL Streamers make mistakes all the time in their "analysis", their job is to entertain, not to be accurate or truthful. They sell the feeling of being OMG SOO POWERFUL! or "I know something you don't, bask in how much smarter I am than you". They all also have their own biases, assumptions, and quirks.
Everyone makes mistakes, but the D&D creators play a crucial role in guiding the brand in the right direction — it’s their full-time job to analyze, design, and engage with the community. Yet, I see a lot of so-called "experts" here offering nothing but criticism, often without any real arguments or constructive input.
Their analysis and opinions still matter, even if you don’t always agree. Most of us are here trying to contribute in a constructive way — just like they are — because, at the end of the day, we all care about the game.
A well-targeted changes to bring the key feature of Hexblade could make it shine again.
Their analysis and opinions are better than no analysis, but many people in forums like these and elsewhere have also done analysis, and have opinions, so it becomes about the reasons, and data. Most of these guys have only given their first impressions of hexblade, and have not tested them, or even done a full analysis yet. They also are not saying the same things you are saying.
Some people disagree with you, or the authorities you trust, that doesnt mean they are not being constructive, being critical is the cornerstone of any peer review or analysis.
I have said what i think are the things that need to change, (primarily hexblade curses, duration, application, and possibly some free casts of spells for t1-t2)
What makes you think hexblade wont shine? It offers a strong spell list for attack based players, it offers increased AC in melee. (more than you would normally have with heavy or medium armor alone), damage reduction, incentives to be in melee, offensive and defensive, auperior chase, and a very easy and strong debuff to saves.
gameplay wise, i think this hexblade already surpasses the old hexblade. I'd also rather play this hexblade as a melee than the other subclasses, maybe archfey for tricksy/dodge style.
the reason im pushing on certain ideas, like:
needing medium armor and shields, is because it over performs, with them, reduces the build differentiation for the class, and undermines the subclass identity and gameplay.
The subclass, as it stands now encourages melee play, staying close to your target, and having a target. If you have 17-18 ac with no effort you reduce the imcentives that are the core if its gameplay/design. (a melee range attack based subclass)
And, as soon as you incorprate shields into the class, you basically make eldritch blast the most efficient way to play (with a shield). The class has no innate weapon based boosts (like fighting styles or weapon masteries) so eldritch blast offers a 1 handed d10 dice, which eventually scales to 4 hits, a push option with repelling blast, there is no good reason not to use eldritch blast with a shield, which undermines the whole current subclass concept, of a weapon using melee focused playstyle. The main reason to use pact of the blade, is essentially to take advantage of melee weapon features. (otherwise eldritch blast is superior) which essentially all revolve around fighting with two hands, either by dual wielding, polearms, or gwm.
and lastly, the balance issue. giving hexblade access to medium+shields makes it able to get good AC, with minimal investment in dex. This makes it able to get upper teir consistent martial damage, full caster spellcasting power, AC and Con with only a 2 stat investment. Thats not balanced.based on it power levels. It doesnt need this to be a powerful class or to do its job.
As for pushing back on a PB damage rider, the class already has high teir single target martial damage potential, adding even more would be a problem as a single class, not to mention PB damage on hit, 3-5 times a day, is a huge boost for any multiattack build, (especially charisma) this would only unbalance multiclassing even more.sorlock, sorcadin, warladin, hexblade dominance. (much like before)
IMO this is constructive feedback, because those changes would be destructive to the class design, and the game balance. i really hope they dont add medium/shields to hexblade as it stands, or a blanket damage buff.
its fine they can get them via multiclass or features, as anyone else can also do that, and give up some progression, but baseline? no reason.
The current iteration is still a bit meh. The level 14 final dmg boost is nice, but comes too late - bladelocks are already very good for dmg once they get 3rd attack, but are lacking earlier.
The AC boost is a trap - use this plus another invocation and you can equal medium armor, and it only works for 1 enemy. That should just be a bonus if in light armor at least (I could maybe see still giving only vs cursed for though). The concentration power is good. The spells are good, but not dramatically better than other subclasses, and most aren’t optimal IMO to use with your limited slots.
There is still not enough here that I wouldn’t likely take a different subclass instead as a bladelock. I did like the concept of improving on hex from the previous iteration (though that execution was poor). I also like allowing hex to place curse also. Maybe give back the free hex castings (can’t be moved from cursed foe), remove the armor boost, and maybe if we need to balance it overall reduce the concentration power.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
LOL Streamers make mistakes all the time in their "analysis", their job is to entertain, not to be accurate or truthful. They sell the feeling of being OMG SOO POWERFUL! or "I know something you don't, bask in how much smarter I am than you". They all also have their own biases, assumptions, and quirks.
Everyone makes mistakes, but the D&D creators play a crucial role in guiding the brand in the right direction — it’s their full-time job to analyze, design, and engage with the community. Yet, I see a lot of so-called "experts" here offering nothing but criticism, often without any real arguments or constructive input.
Their analysis and opinions still matter, even if you don’t always agree. Most of us are here trying to contribute in a constructive way — just like they are — because, at the end of the day, we all care about the game.
A well-targeted changes to bring the key feature of Hexblade could make it shine again.
Their analysis and opinions are better than no analysis, but many people in forums like these and elsewhere have also done analysis, and have opinions, so it becomes about the reasons, and data. Most of these guys have only given their first impressions of hexblade, and have not tested them, or even done a full analysis yet. They also are not saying the same things you are saying.
Some people disagree with you, or the authorities you trust, that doesnt mean they are not being constructive, being critical is the cornerstone of any peer review or analysis.
I have said what i think are the things that need to change, (primarily hexblade curses, duration, application, and possibly some free casts of spells for t1-t2)
What makes you think hexblade wont shine? It offers a strong spell list for attack based players, it offers increased AC in melee. (more than you would normally have with heavy or medium armor alone), damage reduction, incentives to be in melee, offensive and defensive, auperior chase, and a very easy and strong debuff to saves.
gameplay wise, i think this hexblade already surpasses the old hexblade. I'd also rather play this hexblade as a melee than the other subclasses, maybe archfey for tricksy/dodge style.
the reason im pushing on certain ideas, like:
needing medium armor and shields, is because it over performs, with them, reduces the build differentiation for the class, and undermines the subclass identity and gameplay.
The subclass, as it stands now encourages melee play, staying close to your target, and having a target. If you have 17-18 ac with no effort you reduce the imcentives that are the core if its gameplay/design. (a melee range attack based subclass)
And, as soon as you incorprate shields into the class, you basically make eldritch blast the most efficient way to play (with a shield). The class has no innate weapon based boosts (like fighting styles or weapon masteries) so eldritch blast offers a 1 handed d10 dice, which eventually scales to 4 hits, a push option with repelling blast, there is no good reason not to use eldritch blast with a shield, which undermines the whole current subclass concept, of a weapon using melee focused playstyle. The main reason to use pact of the blade, is essentially to take advantage of melee weapon features. (otherwise eldritch blast is superior) which essentially all revolve around fighting with two hands, either by dual wielding, polearms, or gwm.
and lastly, the balance issue. giving hexblade access to medium+shields makes it able to get good AC, with minimal investment in dex. This makes it able to get upper teir consistent martial damage, full caster spellcasting power, AC and Con with only a 2 stat investment. Thats not balanced.based on it power levels. It doesnt need this to be a powerful class or to do its job.
As for pushing back on a PB damage rider, the class already has high teir single target martial damage potential, adding even more would be a problem as a single class, not to mention PB damage on hit, 3-5 times a day, is a huge boost for any multiattack build, (especially charisma) this would only unbalance multiclassing even more.sorlock, sorcadin, warladin, hexblade dominance. (much like before)
IMO this is constructive feedback, because those changes would be destructive to the class design, and the game balance. i really hope they dont add medium/shields to hexblade as it stands, or a blanket damage buff.
its fine they can get them via multiclass or features, as anyone else can also do that, and give up some progression, but baseline? no reason.
The current iteration is still a bit meh. The level 14 final dmg boost is nice, but comes too late - bladelocks are already very good for dmg once they get 3rd attack, but are lacking earlier.
The AC boost is a trap - use this plus another invocation and you can equal medium armor, and it only works for 1 enemy. That should just be a bonus if in light armor at least (I could maybe see still giving only vs cursed for though). The concentration power is good. The spells are good, but not dramatically better than other subclasses, and most aren’t optimal IMO to use with your limited slots.
There is still not enough here that I wouldn’t likely take a different subclass instead as a bladelock. I did like the concept of improving on hex from the previous iteration (though that execution was poor). I also like allowing hex to place curse also. Maybe give back the free hex castings (can’t be moved from cursed foe), remove the armor boost, and maybe if we need to balance it overall reduce the concentration power.
the AC boost isnt just to the cursed target, its an AC boost as long as you are close to the target. You have +2 AC as long as you are within 10 feet of the target. The direct damage reduction of the 10th level feature is just from the hexed target.
also, the nage armor invocation gives you more AC than light armor. If you care about AC, you should take the trait, regardless of hexblade features, if you dont care about AC, then you dont care. some features in classes work with being unarmored, its not the first time. Invocations are basically choose your own class features, thats like saying war cleric is flawed because its weaker if you dont select protector cleric, yeah, subclasses are often attached to a certain playstyle, arcane archer, kensei, moon druid, they are all based on certain aspects the main class they expect you to be investing in.
The damage of blade lock is not lacking early on, and hexblade adds damage. hex + unyielding will, + 1 damage spell per SR is pretty high up there in damage. blademaster, berserker, mercy monk, assassin, etc is not better than that. Probably only ranger, and berserker is better. (at low levels)
and it scales, at 5 you get an extra attack, (scales up per hit spells) with feats you can go into dual wielder, gwm, pam weapon mastery, and combinations of that by 8
at 9 you get level 5 spells like spirit shroud being 2d8, and bestow curse not using concentration(can stack) and life drinker
at 11, 3 spells per SR 2 recovered with magical cunning
at 12, 3 attacks, third feat
at 14 aoe damage feature, crit tange, hexcurse uptime.
17 foresight, 4 spells,
i assure you its damage remains competitive throughout.
as for picking other subclasses, you should have reason to pick other subclasses instead, it should be like new subclass invalidates old. The reason you may want to pick this specific subclass is if your playstyle is going to be primarily melee and weapon based. unyielding will, accursed shield, harrowing hex, inescapble hex, give you more damage in melee, more defense in melee, better ability to stay in melee. The spell list synergizes with attack based multihit play and melee (smites) and spells that will benefit from crits. And hundering hex makes you a better chance of the group landing debuffs.
there isnt another subclass that synergizes better with a melee attack based playstyle. Sure, you can be decent at melee, and evasive, or decent at melee and supportive, but hexblade benefits melee playstyle more. And, im pretty sure its the best at melee defense. what subclass better fits this playstyle?
the lack of free hex castings is an issue i think fell under the radar in a lot of feedback, i will say from level 3-10, and essentially always having a melee damage buff spell up, you feel like you have very little spell choice, and while you are powerful enough, your gameplay lacks variation, you dont have masteries, cantrips are inefficient, and cant really choose spells (because low resources)
Playing a bladelock (presently fighter 1/feylock 8), and having crunched the numbers and watched as many warlock content as possible, I am aware that warlock damage is fine-good in tier 1 and 2. As you note, any 2wf build, berserker/zealot will be better. Monks, fighters, and some rogues are all about the same as a bladelock - that is with the bladelock using spells for weapon dmg. They don’t pull ahead until the 3rd attack, but that is also when fighters shine (and a level earlier). Paladins can also compete at these levels depending on subclass. Foresight is a big boost, but is very late and Adv may be easy to get by then anyways. Also, most play will be before that 3rd attack.
I’m glad to be incorrect on the +2 AC, but I still think it’s a trap - just like barbarian and dance bard equivalents. It’s also an invocation tax for an already invocation heavy build. There’s no reason the ability couldn’t work in light armor only. If I care about AC, I’m getting medium or heavy armor from a multiclass; and I’ll get a fighting style or spell slots (for shield if I want) and weapon mastery. One could also argue that a temp HP-AoA style would be better for a bladelock than an AC focus.
I agree having subclass choice for playstyle is optimum. If this is the “melee” one, I think it needs more oomph at level 3 and 6. I think the fey and fiend provide as much if not more at those levels while Hexblade wins lvl 14 (I could go either way on 10).
So, I am a tad late to the discussion, but something I noticed with the updated changes was that many of the early curse effects don't actually directly affect the target.
You might not be getting the most out of your abilities, but if you don't want to, or can't, be within 10 feet of your current foe, Curse your neighbor. Get +2 AC anywhere on the battlefield as long as you are next to your pal. At the end of your ally's turn, if they are 30+ feet away from you, move your speed straight to them (without using a reaction).
If the UA version persists, it's good to be aware of options. If WotC keeps the Hexblade as Light Armor only, are there any official magic medium armors clearly intended to be used by a Hexblade/Warlock? They would probably just want half plate +x, right?
Also, regarding the changes from 2014 to 2024, RPGBot has a video that summarizes the issues. The mechanical comments are based on the Horror UA, but I think the take aways are still valid. It's a good subclass, but it's not the Hexblade. Updating your characters will be more of a rebuild; you will be playing a different character, not just one updated to the current rules. It's a Hexblade in name alone to invalidate the 2014 Hexblade, not to carry the concept forward with updated mechanics.
However, what if instead of armor proficiency, they gave Armor of Shadows as a free invocation? That would reach an AC of 13 + Dex and +2 (Accursed Shield) versus 15 (Half Plate) + 2 (shield) + Dex (Max 2). With a +3 from Dex, that's 18 versus 19. It's not bad, but scales slower than the 2014 version. Both can take a ring of protection (+1). Only the UA can take Bracers of Defense (+2). UA can take +x Light Armor, but mage armor plus Bracers of Defense are the same and Light Armor blocks the new Accursed Shield, so Warlock provided Light Armor is not an option (cutting off core class features is bad subclass design). The 2014 Hexblade can pursue +x Medium Armor AND Shields. So, I think that caps out as 21 (2 attuned items) versus 26 (1 attuned item). That's an extreme case, but I think it would help for, at least, Accursed Shield worked with armor. This wouldn't impact the comparison numerically, but allows for more defensive flexibility.
The real issue was always the one-level dip into Hexblade — but that’s no longer possible now that all subclasses start at level 3. These days, the go-to multiclass dip is actually one level of Fighter. If you're interested in understanding why, I recommend checking out the D4 YouTube channel — it's one of the best out there when it comes to deep dives into D&D builds.
It's not hard to understand the 1 level Fighter dip; particularly if instead of a dip someone "starts" as a Fighter so they get Heavy Armor before taking levels in their actual main class. And this still doesn't support the idea that 2014 Hexblade was actually well put together if it was such a good 1 level dip.
That’s exactly why I suggested watching D4. He actually compares a 1-level dip into Fighter and shows how it outperforms the classic Hexblade dip. It’s surprising that some of you comment so confidently on D&D builds but don’t follow streamers who analyze this stuff daily.
Streamers aren't flawless. & they are prone to quirky biases(Treantmonk w/Mage Slayer 2024, Pack Tactics with 2014 Conjure spells & other minion-summoning spells, etc), so relying on external opinions is not a universal strategy.
I personally found that the Hexblade was mostly used to make Hexadins, Coffeelocks & other metagamey choices that were hard to justify via backstories & in-game experiences, so I'm all for changing it. I don't agree with HOW it's been changed, per se, but something had to be done after Pact of the Blade got its upgrade.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
no, the problem is/was that with medium armor it would be flat out better than anything else.
You keep making the very incorrect assumption that the 1 level dip was the only problem with the hexblade.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The 1 level dip was a 2014 issue. For 2024 the issue is the differences in the Warlock subclasses when measured against each other. As it stands no one Warlock subclass is "best" for Bladelock and that is how it should stay. The focus should be on thematic mechanics that fit the Patron and inspire your imagination to create a variety of builds and not funnel everyone into "best" cookie cutter playstyles.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
No one can agree on the thematic mechanics, tho.
Mostly because they cling to the idea of a HexBLADE, not giving any credence a HEXblade, without everyone, including WotC, considering a HEXBLADE, metaphorically speaking.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
well said
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
i watch d4 from time to time, But d4 is no god, he has his opinions, based on his own metrics, but d4 doesnt present himself as a man seeking balance, but as a guy who loves to optimize. and regardless of fighter's possible one level. dip ability, that doesnt mean hexblade 2014 is a fine dip. IF one thing is an outlier, that doesnt mean everything being an outlier is fine. Also i have disagreed with d4's takes many times, he is not inherently more right than anyone else because he runs a youtube channel. He isnt pulling things out of his butt, but he isn't the truth of dnd either. And he also has a bias, he prefers a game with lots of powerful and effective multiclassing. Its what brings him joy. but lookin at this:
https://youtu.be/xj6l_uPWtwc?si=xAgDhgrxChrXAAnA
even d4 admits hexblade curse was too powerful, soo i dunno homey
but really, you are making this about 2014 dips, My discusssion is based on 2024 game balance. Hexblade has no greater problem surviving than other melee classes without medium armor, so why should they have it? they already do above average martial damage, the 2024 hexblade offers extra control via hindering hex, and they are performing similarly defensively to martial subclasses who arent specifically focused on defense.
Why should they have high dpr, higher survivability, full mage progression, and top end martial tank potential?
Who are you comparing hexblade to, that it falls flat in comparison to? What is 'enough' survivability to you? should it be at battelmasters level of surviavbility/dpr/control? monk?ranger?
who is noticeably outperforming it in your eyes?
Just because getting Heavy Armor and Action Surge is statistically better doesn't mean the 2014 Hexblade wasn't overly frontloaded.
What I want to mean is that the 2014 level deep on Hexblade is over and now Its 1 Level Fighter deep that is even better. Hexblade 2014 without multiclass was never a issue.
Heavy Armor is over-rated. It requires you to do a STR-based build, and STR-based builds just aren't that good. DEX is better than STR, so Medium armour is better than Heavy for the vast majority of classes.
LOL Streamers make mistakes all the time in their "analysis", their job is to entertain, not to be accurate or truthful. They sell the feeling of being OMG SOO POWERFUL! or "I know something you don't, bask in how much smarter I am than you". They all also have their own biases, assumptions, and quirks.
Everyone makes mistakes, but the D&D creators play a crucial role in guiding the brand in the right direction — it’s their full-time job to analyze, design, and engage with the community. Yet, I see a lot of so-called "experts" here offering nothing but criticism, often without any real arguments or constructive input.
Their analysis and opinions still matter, even if you don’t always agree. Most of us are here trying to contribute in a constructive way — just like they are — because, at the end of the day, we all care about the game.
A well-targeted changes to bring the key feature of Hexblade could make it shine again.
except you (and they) seem to think that the problem is 1 level dips. That was certainly A problem, but not THE problem with 2014 hexblade.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Their analysis and opinions are better than no analysis, but many people in forums like these and elsewhere have also done analysis, and have opinions, so it becomes about the reasons, and data. Most of these guys have only given their first impressions of hexblade, and have not tested them, or even done a full analysis yet. They also are not saying the same things you are saying.
Some people disagree with you, or the authorities you trust, that doesnt mean they are not being constructive, being critical is the cornerstone of any peer review or analysis.
I have said what i think are the things that need to change, (primarily hexblade curses, duration, application, and possibly some free casts of spells for t1-t2)
What makes you think hexblade wont shine? It offers a strong spell list for attack based players, it offers increased AC in melee. (more than you would normally have with heavy or medium armor alone), damage reduction, incentives to be in melee, offensive and defensive, auperior chase, and a very easy and strong debuff to saves.
gameplay wise, i think this hexblade already surpasses the old hexblade. I'd also rather play this hexblade as a melee than the other subclasses, maybe archfey for tricksy/dodge style.
the reason im pushing on certain ideas, like:
needing medium armor and shields, is because it over performs, with them, reduces the build differentiation for the class, and undermines the subclass identity and gameplay.
The subclass, as it stands now encourages melee play, staying close to your target, and having a target. If you have 17-18 ac with no effort you reduce the imcentives that are the core if its gameplay/design. (a melee range attack based subclass)
And, as soon as you incorprate shields into the class, you basically make eldritch blast the most efficient way to play (with a shield). The class has no innate weapon based boosts (like fighting styles or weapon masteries) so eldritch blast offers a 1 handed d10 dice, which eventually scales to 4 hits, a push option with repelling blast, there is no good reason not to use eldritch blast with a shield, which undermines the whole current subclass concept, of a weapon using melee focused playstyle. The main reason to use pact of the blade, is essentially to take advantage of melee weapon features. (otherwise eldritch blast is superior) which essentially all revolve around fighting with two hands, either by dual wielding, polearms, or gwm.
and lastly, the balance issue. giving hexblade access to medium+shields makes it able to get good AC, with minimal investment in dex. This makes it able to get upper teir consistent martial damage, full caster spellcasting power, AC and Con with only a 2 stat investment. Thats not balanced.based on it power levels. It doesnt need this to be a powerful class or to do its job.
As for pushing back on a PB damage rider, the class already has high teir single target martial damage potential, adding even more would be a problem as a single class, not to mention PB damage on hit, 3-5 times a day, is a huge boost for any multiattack build, (especially charisma) this would only unbalance multiclassing even more.sorlock, sorcadin, warladin, hexblade dominance. (much like before)
IMO this is constructive feedback, because those changes would be destructive to the class design, and the game balance. i really hope they dont add medium/shields to hexblade as it stands, or a blanket damage buff.
its fine they can get them via multiclass or features, as anyone else can also do that, and give up some progression, but baseline? no reason.
The current iteration is still a bit meh. The level 14 final dmg boost is nice, but comes too late - bladelocks are already very good for dmg once they get 3rd attack, but are lacking earlier.
The AC boost is a trap - use this plus another invocation and you can equal medium armor, and it only works for 1 enemy. That should just be a bonus if in light armor at least (I could maybe see still giving only vs cursed for though). The concentration power is good. The spells are good, but not dramatically better than other subclasses, and most aren’t optimal IMO to use with your limited slots.
There is still not enough here that I wouldn’t likely take a different subclass instead as a bladelock. I did like the concept of improving on hex from the previous iteration (though that execution was poor). I also like allowing hex to place curse also. Maybe give back the free hex castings (can’t be moved from cursed foe), remove the armor boost, and maybe if we need to balance it overall reduce the concentration power.
the AC boost isnt just to the cursed target, its an AC boost as long as you are close to the target. You have +2 AC as long as you are within 10 feet of the target. The direct damage reduction of the 10th level feature is just from the hexed target.
also, the nage armor invocation gives you more AC than light armor. If you care about AC, you should take the trait, regardless of hexblade features, if you dont care about AC, then you dont care. some features in classes work with being unarmored, its not the first time. Invocations are basically choose your own class features, thats like saying war cleric is flawed because its weaker if you dont select protector cleric, yeah, subclasses are often attached to a certain playstyle, arcane archer, kensei, moon druid, they are all based on certain aspects the main class they expect you to be investing in.
The damage of blade lock is not lacking early on, and hexblade adds damage. hex + unyielding will, + 1 damage spell per SR is pretty high up there in damage. blademaster, berserker, mercy monk, assassin, etc is not better than that. Probably only ranger, and berserker is better. (at low levels)
and it scales, at 5 you get an extra attack, (scales up per hit spells) with feats you can go into dual wielder, gwm, pam weapon mastery, and combinations of that by 8
at 9 you get level 5 spells like spirit shroud being 2d8, and bestow curse not using concentration(can stack) and life drinker
at 11, 3 spells per SR 2 recovered with magical cunning
at 12, 3 attacks, third feat
at 14 aoe damage feature, crit tange, hexcurse uptime.
17 foresight, 4 spells,
i assure you its damage remains competitive throughout.
as for picking other subclasses, you should have reason to pick other subclasses instead, it should be like new subclass invalidates old. The reason you may want to pick this specific subclass is if your playstyle is going to be primarily melee and weapon based. unyielding will, accursed shield, harrowing hex, inescapble hex, give you more damage in melee, more defense in melee, better ability to stay in melee. The spell list synergizes with attack based multihit play and melee (smites) and spells that will benefit from crits. And hundering hex makes you a better chance of the group landing debuffs.
there isnt another subclass that synergizes better with a melee attack based playstyle. Sure, you can be decent at melee, and evasive, or decent at melee and supportive, but hexblade benefits melee playstyle more. And, im pretty sure its the best at melee defense. what subclass better fits this playstyle?
the lack of free hex castings is an issue i think fell under the radar in a lot of feedback, i will say from level 3-10, and essentially always having a melee damage buff spell up, you feel like you have very little spell choice, and while you are powerful enough, your gameplay lacks variation, you dont have masteries, cantrips are inefficient, and cant really choose spells (because low resources)
Playing a bladelock (presently fighter 1/feylock 8), and having crunched the numbers and watched as many warlock content as possible, I am aware that warlock damage is fine-good in tier 1 and 2. As you note, any 2wf build, berserker/zealot will be better. Monks, fighters, and some rogues are all about the same as a bladelock - that is with the bladelock using spells for weapon dmg. They don’t pull ahead until the 3rd attack, but that is also when fighters shine (and a level earlier). Paladins can also compete at these levels depending on subclass. Foresight is a big boost, but is very late and Adv may be easy to get by then anyways. Also, most play will be before that 3rd attack.
I’m glad to be incorrect on the +2 AC, but I still think it’s a trap - just like barbarian and dance bard equivalents. It’s also an invocation tax for an already invocation heavy build. There’s no reason the ability couldn’t work in light armor only. If I care about AC, I’m getting medium or heavy armor from a multiclass; and I’ll get a fighting style or spell slots (for shield if I want) and weapon mastery. One could also argue that a temp HP-AoA style would be better for a bladelock than an AC focus.
I agree having subclass choice for playstyle is optimum. If this is the “melee” one, I think it needs more oomph at level 3 and 6. I think the fey and fiend provide as much if not more at those levels while Hexblade wins lvl 14 (I could go either way on 10).
So, I am a tad late to the discussion, but something I noticed with the updated changes was that many of the early curse effects don't actually directly affect the target.
You might not be getting the most out of your abilities, but if you don't want to, or can't, be within 10 feet of your current foe, Curse your neighbor. Get +2 AC anywhere on the battlefield as long as you are next to your pal. At the end of your ally's turn, if they are 30+ feet away from you, move your speed straight to them (without using a reaction).
If the UA version persists, it's good to be aware of options. If WotC keeps the Hexblade as Light Armor only, are there any official magic medium armors clearly intended to be used by a Hexblade/Warlock? They would probably just want half plate +x, right?
Also, regarding the changes from 2014 to 2024, RPGBot has a video that summarizes the issues. The mechanical comments are based on the Horror UA, but I think the take aways are still valid. It's a good subclass, but it's not the Hexblade. Updating your characters will be more of a rebuild; you will be playing a different character, not just one updated to the current rules. It's a Hexblade in name alone to invalidate the 2014 Hexblade, not to carry the concept forward with updated mechanics.
However, what if instead of armor proficiency, they gave Armor of Shadows as a free invocation? That would reach an AC of 13 + Dex and +2 (Accursed Shield) versus 15 (Half Plate) + 2 (shield) + Dex (Max 2). With a +3 from Dex, that's 18 versus 19. It's not bad, but scales slower than the 2014 version. Both can take a ring of protection (+1). Only the UA can take Bracers of Defense (+2). UA can take +x Light Armor, but mage armor plus Bracers of Defense are the same and Light Armor blocks the new Accursed Shield, so Warlock provided Light Armor is not an option (cutting off core class features is bad subclass design). The 2014 Hexblade can pursue +x Medium Armor AND Shields. So, I think that caps out as 21 (2 attuned items) versus 26 (1 attuned item). That's an extreme case, but I think it would help for, at least, Accursed Shield worked with armor. This wouldn't impact the comparison numerically, but allows for more defensive flexibility.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.