Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
Read that ability again. It has nothing to do with attacks from your cursed target.
You get a +2 to AC when within 10ft of your cursed target.
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
Read that ability again. It has nothing to do with attacks from your cursed target.
You get a +2 to AC when within 10ft of your cursed target.
It's honestly still a crappy ability. There's no reason it doesn't work with armor. It's just a shield w/ prerequisites, on a class with an armor proficiency. As is, it's an additional invocation tax. And it STILL has the problem of losing the previous proficiencies that is going to make at least some current Hexblades unplayable by destroying their defense (like mine, for instance, currently running medium armor and a shield).
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
Read that ability again. It has nothing to do with attacks from your cursed target.
You get a +2 to AC when within 10ft of your cursed target.
It's honestly still a crappy ability. There's no reason it doesn't work with armor. It's just a shield w/ prerequisites, on a class with an armor proficiency. As is, it's an additional invocation tax. And it STILL has the problem of losing the previous proficiencies that is going to make at least some current Hexblades unplayable by destroying their defense (like mine, for instance, currently running medium armor and a shield).
Yeah that should definitely not limit you from wearing light armor since light armor is a 2024 warlock armor training. I guess there is precedence for this sort of thing since dance bard has a feature that requires you not to wear armor, but that is a damage calculation and far better than a +2. I like it as a method to give incentive to playing a Hexblade in melee ranges, but it does become an invocation tax by dropping the armor training given by the base class. Maybe even if it read if not wearing heavy armor or a shield I could accept it as not just being bad. I’ll need more time with it to make a final verdict.
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
Read that ability again. It has nothing to do with attacks from your cursed target.
You get a +2 to AC when within 10ft of your cursed target.
It's honestly still a crappy ability. There's no reason it doesn't work with armor. It's just a shield w/ prerequisites, on a class with an armor proficiency. As is, it's an additional invocation tax. And it STILL has the problem of losing the previous proficiencies that is going to make at least some current Hexblades unplayable by destroying their defense (like mine, for instance, currently running medium armor and a shield).
Yeah that should definitely not limit you from wearing light armor since light armor is a 2024 warlock armor training. I guess there is precedence for this sort of thing since dance bard has a feature that requires you not to wear armor, but that is a damage calculation and far better than a +2. I like it as a method to give incentive to playing a Hexblade in melee ranges, but it does become an invocation tax by dropping the armor training given by the base class. Maybe even if it read if not wearing heavy armor or a shield I could accept it as not just being bad. I’ll need more time with it to make a final verdict.
Given that it's effectively a shield that doesn't take up a free hand, I would definitely be ok with not stacking with a shield, but a +2 is just not worth the lack of armor or a forced invocation tax.
1) Ultimate warlock-gish is right there in the name "hexblade." If the "new hexblade" isn't going to focus on hexes and weapons then they need to change the name/release a *different* subclass. In 2014 if you wanted to dual wield, hexblade pact of the blade was the way to go (because hexweapon and pact weapon), I don't see taking that away as an option, doubling down on it is.
2) allowing *any* subclass to be a *good* gish is not negated by designing one subclass to be a *BETTER* gish. It's a sliding scale of focus/specialization.
3) any given 2024 warlock subclass with pact of the blade and follow on invocations is a *worse* gish than the 2014 hexblade with pact of the blade etc. If they go with the UA hexblade warlock becomes a worse/more mediocre (less potential as a) gish than under 2014, it'd be taking away gishyness from the class, meaning it'd be better to just leave hexblade alone than go with the UA update.
4) you can mostly do what I was proposed already through multiclassing, starting with a 1 level fighter dip gets you con proficiency, 3 weapon masteries, a fighting style, medium/heavy armor proficiency, etc. Then going pact of blade hexblade until at least warlock 12, is close to identical as what I recommended. The difference is leaning more heavily into the hex theme because every warlock can now gets the cha bonus and joining the blade singer and valor bard with the ability to substitute 1 cantrip for one attack made as part of an attack action. So it's not much of a power creep/just brings hexblade in line with other 2024 (sub)classes, because for the most part 2024 (sub)classes get at least a small bump in power level relatively to 2014 varieties. The UA hexblade 2.0 is quite a substantial nerf.
If the UA hexblade is a nerf, it probably means they think hexblade with the 2024 warlock chassis needed a nerf.
keep in mind the baseline class has devouring blade and an improved lifedrinker,'
and keep in mind that hexblade was seen as an OP dip for many classes, and some claimed the best martial class in the game.
So its highly possible that it was going to get nerfed in some aspects regardless.
and also, hexblade, though its not specifically limited to melee weapon use, is probably the subclass which is most synergistic with melee weapon use, due to its features essentially being weighted towards attacks and using hex.
no other subclasses has as much reason and opportunity to be making attacks.
could they have gone deeper on melee, sure, could they have built a different subclass sure.
is it weak by 2024 class standards when compared to other martials? not at all.
They fixed the op "dip" problem by delaying the subclass to level 3. A 1 level dip that gave medium armor proficiency, let you use cha for attack and defense, and hexblade's curse for a 19-20 critical against 1 target *was* OP, for sorcerers, valor bards, paladins and swashbuckler rogues.
A 2014 hexblade/2024 warlock just isn't an impressive martial compared to champion/battlemaster/etc fighter, paladin, or valor bard.
But they obviously agreed/realized that the first UA draft was bad/weak/poorly-flavored because they released a significant revamp that was less bad. At least it now has blade/melee flavored abilities, and they are leaning more heavily into cursing. So they are no2 matching my suggestion in terms of flavor if not implementation.
A Dual wielding hexblade was *never* a problem (more flavor than mechanical benefit) because you have to limit yourself to d6 or smaller weapons to get the extra attack.
2024 5e hands out weapon masteries and fighting style (fighter rogue, etc) like Halloween candy, the hexblade getting them at level 3 just reduces the incentive to multiclass (and starting fighter 1 grants armor, con save, weapon masteries etc.). So it's discourages multiclassing, which is where the OP builds came from.
Compare a fighter /bladelock 12 (pick any 1024 subclass)/valor bard 3/champion-fighter 2-3/bard 4/Fighter 4 (i'd personality choose battelmast but champion although weaker is more of an apples to apples comparison) against my proposed pact of blade hexblade 16/valor bard (ending with valor bard 4 and hexblade 16).... they're not that far apart but the 3 way multiclassing is farther ahead in my book.
My jinx is a best side grade to the original armor of hexes. Roll again take the worst is less beneficial against a strong opponent (the one you were going to curse) and limited uses is a nerf but it's more flexible (can be used against things other than attacks made against you)
against high leve It's not a straight 50% miss chance regardless of
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
Read that ability again. It has nothing to do with attacks from your cursed target.
You get a +2 to AC when within 10ft of your cursed target.
It's honestly still a crappy ability. There's no reason it doesn't work with armor. It's just a shield w/ prerequisites, on a class with an armor proficiency. As is, it's an additional invocation tax. And it STILL has the problem of losing the previous proficiencies that is going to make at least some current Hexblades unplayable by destroying their defense (like mine, for instance, currently running medium armor and a shield).
Yeah that should definitely not limit you from wearing light armor since light armor is a 2024 warlock armor training. I guess there is precedence for this sort of thing since dance bard has a feature that requires you not to wear armor, but that is a damage calculation and far better than a +2. I like it as a method to give incentive to playing a Hexblade in melee ranges, but it does become an invocation tax by dropping the armor training given by the base class. Maybe even if it read if not wearing heavy armor or a shield I could accept it as not just being bad. I’ll need more time with it to make a final verdict.
the assumption is that you are using mage armor by some means, so its basically your dex + 5 while you are close to an effected target. which, is pretty much unarmored defense level of AC.
but that means you are getting mage armor by some means, which they can do if they want, and its going to be a trade off of some sort.
my main issue is that you cant transfer this effect, so it really is only going to be available some times. Even if you apply it with hex, only the first monster you hex will get the cursed status. like this guy really wont do well against groups, Once you kill a target you are substantially less effective unless you want to burn another limited resource
Would it be too strong for the +2 AC to apply to being within 10ft of any enemy that is cursed? That would allow them to still benefit from moving their hex spell and from getting into melee with targets the cleric used Bane spell or some other curse on. I don’t think that is broken if it is only for the accursed shield portion. Also I still feel that it should allow for light armor to be worn. The player who has been playing wearing light armor shouldn’t get to level three and suddenly need to switch to mage armor or gain no benefit from this feature.
Would it be too strong for the +2 AC to apply to being within 10ft of any enemy that is cursed? That would allow them to still benefit from moving their hex spell and from getting into melee with targets the cleric used Bane spell or some other curse on. I don’t think that is broken if it is only for the accursed shield portion. Also I still feel that it should allow for light armor to be worn. The player who has been playing wearing light armor shouldn’t get to level three and suddenly need to switch to mage armor or gain no benefit from this feature.
Honestly, it should just be a permanent effect. It's a shield. That's it. On a class that can't use medium or heavy armor without 1st level dips or feat investments, an extra +2 to AC isn't going to break anything. But this also brings up that language needs major clarifications for Hex since it can be transferred. Is it only good for the first target, or does it move with since it lasts the duration of the spell? Moving Hex isn't a new casting, so if it doesn't change targets, it seems you can't reapply it through Hex, meaning it takes extra actions to get it on a second target after you move Hex (since you don't have the spell slots to go casting Hex willy-nilly to reapply it).
Well, figured I'd do this again like I did for the first iteration:
The lack of armor proficiencies remains a problem. Even with the modifications I made to my character recently to keep War Caster (because feat changes mean I couldn't have it and Heavy Armor Proficiency), I would lose at least 3 points in my permanent AC with this change (realistically more, I don't have room to pick up the Mage Armor invocation, so I wouldn't gain the +2 in this and would be in weaker armor on top of that).
Hexblade Spells: I have no issue with these at all, especially with the changes to Hexblade's Curse.
Hexblade's Curse: Multiple uses is brilliant, though I'd like to see a "regains one use on a short rest" right from the start. The option (not requirement) to attach it to a spell that curses a target (like Hex or Bestow Curse) is brilliant. However, it needs clarification regarding how it works with Hex, since Hex can transfer targets after one is removed from the fight.
Hunger Hex is simple, but effective. Accursed Shield sucks; the fact it can't be used with armor and is only good when someone is under Hexblade's Curse is ridiculous and if it exists at all (it shouldn't, they should just get their armor and shield proficiencies back) it should be a separate always on ability.
Unyielding Will: This is an absolutely brilliant answer to regularly using a Concentration spell on a melee character, though I'd like to see it start at 1d6 with scaling damage and a scaling boost to Concentration checks (and maybe uses the auto-succeed proficiency times per day, since it's only on Concentration, I really don't think that will be that broken).
Malign Brutality: Honestly, this is one set of abilities on this new version that I just really like and find to be a much more appropriately flavored 6th level ability to the 2014 Hexblade.
Armor of Hexes: It's not a bad ability, but it's bad for a 10th level ability.
Masterful Hex: Going to do this in pieces.
Accursed Critical: This should be at 3rd freakin' level, 6th at the latest. The Champion Fighter has been doing this on all attacks against all enemies since 3rd level. Even as one of 3 abilities, this is not a subclass capstone worthy ability.
Explosive Hex: As an ability, I like it, but to be a decent capstone, it really needs more uses (restoring it is absolutely not worth a Pact Magic slot, plenty of way better spells to use those for).
Hex Restoration: I think this should just be a base part of the Hexblade's Curse, with this upgrade meaning it restores all uses.
Would it be too strong for the +2 AC to apply to being within 10ft of any enemy that is cursed? That would allow them to still benefit from moving their hex spell and from getting into melee with targets the cleric used Bane spell or some other curse on. I don’t think that is broken if it is only for the accursed shield portion. Also I still feel that it should allow for light armor to be worn. The player who has been playing wearing light armor shouldn’t get to level three and suddenly need to switch to mage armor or gain no benefit from this feature.
Honestly, it should just be a permanent effect. It's a shield. That's it. On a class that can't use medium or heavy armor without 1st level dips or feat investments, an extra +2 to AC isn't going to break anything. But this also brings up that language needs major clarifications for Hex since it can be transferred. Is it only good for the first target, or does it move with since it lasts the duration of the spell? Moving Hex isn't a new casting, so if it doesn't change targets, it seems you can't reapply it through Hex, meaning it takes extra actions to get it on a second target after you move Hex (since you don't have the spell slots to go casting Hex willy-nilly to reapply it).
it seems like to me, the intent of the hexblades curse is its one creature per casting of anysource. I can see interpreting it differently, but it seems like a stretch
The advantage is you can use it while concentrating on something else, the disadvantage is its uptime is a lot lower. its basically chr Mod monsters per day, + whatever pact slots you are willing to spend/have on curses.
i honestly prefer it being tied to hex, but im more of i want to have these abilities most of the time whenit comes to martial stuff. I can see it being ok to be limited.
still that means most of your subclass features are going to be available even less often than the previous hexblade, who probably only gave them up to use a very strong concentration spell.
Would it be too strong for the +2 AC to apply to being within 10ft of any enemy that is cursed? That would allow them to still benefit from moving their hex spell and from getting into melee with targets the cleric used Bane spell or some other curse on. I don’t think that is broken if it is only for the accursed shield portion. Also I still feel that it should allow for light armor to be worn. The player who has been playing wearing light armor shouldn’t get to level three and suddenly need to switch to mage armor or gain no benefit from this feature.
Honestly, it should just be a permanent effect. It's a shield. That's it. On a class that can't use medium or heavy armor without 1st level dips or feat investments, an extra +2 to AC isn't going to break anything. But this also brings up that language needs major clarifications for Hex since it can be transferred. Is it only good for the first target, or does it move with since it lasts the duration of the spell? Moving Hex isn't a new casting, so if it doesn't change targets, it seems you can't reapply it through Hex, meaning it takes extra actions to get it on a second target after you move Hex (since you don't have the spell slots to go casting Hex willy-nilly to reapply it).
it seems like to me, the intent of the hexblades curse is its one creature per casting of anysource. I can see interpreting it differently, but it seems like a stretch
The advantage is you can use it while concentrating on something else, the disadvantage is its uptime is a lot lower. its basically chr Mod monsters per day, + whatever pact slots you are willing to spend/have on curses.
i honestly prefer it being tied to hex, but im more of i want to have these abilities most of the time whenit comes to martial stuff. I can see it being ok to be limited.
still that means most of your subclass features are going to be available even less often than the previous hexblade, who probably only gave them up to use a very strong concentration spell.
I honestly agree with you regarding intent, though with so much tied to Hexblade's Curse, I also worry about how often you won't get most of your subclass abilities. But it absolutely needs to be properly clarified. Spells that can transfer targets are kind of abnormal, so if something modifies them, they need to make it clear how that something works.
Would it be too strong for the +2 AC to apply to being within 10ft of any enemy that is cursed? That would allow them to still benefit from moving their hex spell and from getting into melee with targets the cleric used Bane spell or some other curse on. I don’t think that is broken if it is only for the accursed shield portion. Also I still feel that it should allow for light armor to be worn. The player who has been playing wearing light armor shouldn’t get to level three and suddenly need to switch to mage armor or gain no benefit from this feature.
i don't think it would be OP for it to have more uptime, and i also think its odd to get essentially no benefit if you didnt procure mage armor outside of the subclass. But it does make sense that its an unarmored thing. (unarmored is a lot harder to improve via finding items) they are essentially capping the effect at 20. whereas light armor with +2 AC caps the effect at 23. Probably they should add mage armor to the class list, or give 1 free use or something.
i think they should probably let, or make it clear that hex(or whatever other curse lets you transfer) transfers the effect. I think if that isnt the intent this subclass is going to feel really lame when you run out charges or a creature dies, not just from this feature, but most of them.
that said maybe the base warlock is fine enough, and the benefits of hexblade curse are strong enough that only getting it sometimes *the toughest enemies) is good enough, just feels weird that only one feature in the class doesnt depend on having a curse, and we are talking about maybe 5-10 monsters a day? depending on level. I just been rolling random battles to test some stuff, and its not unccommon to have encounters with 5-12 enemies,
i suppose on longer days you are supposed to spend pact slots cursing people (probably with bestow curse). I guess they are the ultimate one guy subclass.
The reason they don’t allow Hexblade curse to be transferable as Hex spell is the hungering hex portion of the ability and the “bag of rats” use.
I think it’s thematic and not broken to allow the “accursed” portions of the features to work on any cursed enemy. That means you get the +2 ac from being with 10 feet of and the improved crit on any ememy with any curse on them. I do like the +2 bonus coming from being within melee range. It incentivizes a play style. Another option would be to also allow you to apply you hexblade’s curse as part of an attack against a target that is already cursed. That way when you use a bonus action to move your hex spell you can apply a new hexblade’s curse against that target when you attack it.
I think the reason accused critical is given so late is to avoid stepping on the champions toes. I’m a proponent of getting it sooner, but I can understand why they give it later. Speaking of the 14th level feature I believe if accursed critical worked on all cursed targets it’s fine as part of the capstone feature. Explosive Hex is supposed to be equivalent to a 5th level spell. It needs to do more damage. Because it does something other than damage, has no save and can be used with no action it doesn’t have to deal the most damage, but a minimum 5d6 feels appropriate. Honestly I think everyone should get a save and the damage boosted to 10d6 with half on successful save. Hex restoration may be fine but I would need to actually play test it to know if I need more Hexblade curses per day.
Armor of hexes still feels off. I like it’s more consistent and can be used against all damage but the 2014 version felt more impactful. Would a happy middle ground be too strong. As a reaction you reduce the damage by your warlock level + 1d4, if you roll a 4 on the d4 you instead reduce the damage to 0.
So they dropped a new hexblade, i have to ponder it more, but i kinda dont like that its just one creature per cast. You can apply it via other spells that curse the target, but warlock only has 2 spells per SR for most of its career.
they get some new effects with it, but when i think of it being 3-5 creatures per day versus 3-5 possible hours per day, that seems like a lot of time where i either have spend spell slots or not have any benefits from your subclass.
on the plus side, it wont directly block any concentration uses,
they also improved your armorless/shieldless AC, which i doubt will satisfy the medium armor/shield wanting guys, but there it is, basically as good as monk AC with a lot less dependency on two different stats.
how do yall feel?
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
While I agree it's a little weak, all they need to do is make it a static increase so long as a curse spell is active. It should not be as good as a Monk's or Barbarian's unarmored defense though. Not for a primary spellcaster.
I agree that it should not be as strong. It's just odd that they're pushing the HB to not wear armor at all, though, I guess with the increased # of uses of HB Curse, it's not as bas as it sounds on paper.
Would it be too strong for the +2 AC to apply to being within 10ft of any enemy that is cursed? That would allow them to still benefit from moving their hex spell and from getting into melee with targets the cleric used Bane spell or some other curse on. I don’t think that is broken if it is only for the accursed shield portion. Also I still feel that it should allow for light armor to be worn. The player who has been playing wearing light armor shouldn’t get to level three and suddenly need to switch to mage armor or gain no benefit from this feature.
i don't think it would be OP for it to have more uptime, and i also think its odd to get essentially no benefit if you didnt procure mage armor outside of the subclass. But it does make sense that its an unarmored thing. (unarmored is a lot harder to improve via finding items) they are essentially capping the effect at 20. whereas light armor with +2 AC caps the effect at 23. Probably they should add mage armor to the class list, or give 1 free use or something.
I was initially surprised that Mage Armor wasn't on the spell list, but it is an Invocation (Armor of Shadows, unlimited use of Mage Armor on yourself) that you could take at level 1.
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
Read that ability again. It has nothing to do with attacks from your cursed target.
You get a +2 to AC when within 10ft of your cursed target.
It's honestly still a crappy ability. There's no reason it doesn't work with armor. It's just a shield w/ prerequisites, on a class with an armor proficiency. As is, it's an additional invocation tax. And it STILL has the problem of losing the previous proficiencies that is going to make at least some current Hexblades unplayable by destroying their defense (like mine, for instance, currently running medium armor and a shield).
Yeah that should definitely not limit you from wearing light armor since light armor is a 2024 warlock armor training. I guess there is precedence for this sort of thing since dance bard has a feature that requires you not to wear armor, but that is a damage calculation and far better than a +2. I like it as a method to give incentive to playing a Hexblade in melee ranges, but it does become an invocation tax by dropping the armor training given by the base class. Maybe even if it read if not wearing heavy armor or a shield I could accept it as not just being bad. I’ll need more time with it to make a final verdict.
the assumption is that you are using mage armor by some means, so its basically your dex + 5 while you are close to an effected target. which, is pretty much unarmored defense level of AC.
but that means you are getting mage armor by some means, which they can do if they want, and its going to be a trade off of some sort.
my main issue is that you cant transfer this effect, so it really is only going to be available some times. Even if you apply it with hex, only the first monster you hex will get the cursed status. like this guy really wont do well against groups, Once you kill a target you are substantially less effective unless you want to burn another limited resource
The issue is that you have to either expend your only spell slot (at levels 1 and 2) for mage armor, or forgo an invocation like Agonizing Blast at level 1 for Armor of Shadows, then pick it up at level 2. Is that terrible? No, 1st and even 2nd level characters (at least casters) SHOULD be focused on survival more at earlier levels. I dunno - on paper it seems bad. Thinking it out it seems . . . less bad.
a couple of thoughts on the new Hexblade patron as presented ..... i calculate with 4 combats a day, and 5 rounds for each combat
Hexblade curse : this can be used on 3-5 targets a day ( and it is not transferable ) so all the "bonus" to AC is useless as soon as your target dies * C- ( an ability that is up for ~2 rounds each combat is not worth much not too mention you need to be w/o armor & shield, i give it a little bump to c- for granting some bonuses and not needing concentration ) Unyielding will : it's an ok ability, the downside is just its only useable once / long rest * C+ MALIGN BRUTALITY Harrowing Hex ( finally something that is worthy of the blade in the patron ) Hindering Curse ( semi - useful for the time the curse is up ) Inescapable Hex ( sounds ok at first glance, at second when will a target you curse ever move away that much ? * B- ARMOR OF HEXES sounds ok at first, but when you think about it is only working on the target you cursed, and how "often" your curse is up its usefulness gets way down * C- MASTERFUL HEX Accursed Critical ( way too late, otherwise this is the 1st ability realy worth it ) Explosive Hex ( nice ability, but for a pact slot at this lvl i could just as well use a spell that is dealing more damage ) Hex Restoration ( with this the curse ability is finally getting useable, but its way way way too late, this should be moved down to 6th Level at the latest ) * B ( little reduction for that they come way too late )
overall rating : C+, get back to the drawing board imho this iteration is a tiny bit better then the one in the Horror UA but still not something i would force on my players
a couple of thoughts on the new Hexblade patron as presented ..... i calculate with 4 combats a day, and 5 rounds for each combat
Hexblade curse : this can be used on 3-5 targets a day ( and it is not transferable ) so all the "bonus" to AC is useless as soon as your target dies * C- ( an ability that is up for ~2 rounds each combat is not worth much not too mention you need to be w/o armor & shield, i give it a little bump to c- for granting some bonuses and not needing concentration ) Unyielding will : it's an ok ability, the downside is just its only useable once / long rest * C+ MALIGN BRUTALITY Harrowing Hex ( finally something that is worthy of the blade in the patron ) Hindering Curse ( semi - useful for the time the curse is up ) Inescapable Hex ( sounds ok at first glance, at second when will a target you curse ever move away that much ? * B- ARMOR OF HEXES sounds ok at first, but when you think about it is only working on the target you cursed, and how "often" your curse is up its usefulness gets way down * C- MASTERFUL HEX Accursed Critical ( way too late, otherwise this is the 1st ability realy worth it ) Explosive Hex ( nice ability, but for a pact slot at this lvl i could just as well use a spell that is dealing more damage ) Hex Restoration ( with this the curse ability is finally getting useable, but its way way way too late, this should be moved down to 6th Level at the latest ) * B ( little reduction for that they come way too late )
overall rating : C+, get back to the drawing board imho this iteration is a tiny bit better then the one in the Horror UA but still not something i would force on my players
the old one is actually leagues better in terms of uptime. You could basically have your hex and associated features whenever you want, and drop it on the occaisons when you are using a superior concentration effect.
this one lets you use it with other concentration, but severely limits your uptime. Are the effects powerful enough to justify that? maybe, i have to do the math, but it seems like in actual play, they are going to get to use their features a lot less often, and they arent really much more durable, and are probably going to spend less time concentrating on other spells anyway, since after 3-5 monsters, you will only get hexblade curse while concentrating on hex or bestow curse. So now you are using 1 pact slot per fight and similarly locked out.
but, it is more designed around melee, and that was a different ask, so its got that going for it.
honestly i dont think its any better than last UA, but it is different, and maybe its closer to the vision people have for the class, we ll see.
Accursed shield is a bad, rough band-aid on the ongoing problem: without dipping into another class, there's no good way for hexblades to get medium armor and shield training. As said before, going on RAW, the hexblade will have to take the Lightly Armored feat - despite already having training in Light Armor - get training in shields, which then allows them to use the next feat to get the Moderately Armored feat.
And that brings the character to 8th level. Given that few campaigns make it past 10th or 12th level, the hexblade has just wasted both feats to get something already available in the previous version. It's honestly kind of infuriating. This is such bad design, and is so easily fixed. They must really hate the version of this subclass from Xanathar's.
This persisting from the previous UA tells me that some folks above are right: the game designers simply don't want the hexblade - despite the BLADE part of its name - to be a true gish subclass.
Accursed shield is a bad, rough band-aid on the ongoing problem: without dipping into another class, there's no good way for hexblades to get medium armor and shield training. As said before, going on RAW, the hexblade will have to take the Lightly Armored feat - despite already having training in Light Armor - get training in shields, which then allows them to use the next feat to get the Moderately Armored feat.
And that brings the character to 8th level. Given that few campaigns make it past 10th or 12th level, the hexblade has just wasted both feats to get something already available in the previous version. It's honestly kind of infuriating. This is such bad design, and is so easily fixed. They must really hate the version of this subclass from Xanathar's.
This persisting from the previous UA tells me that some folks above are right: the game designers simply don't want the hexblade - despite the BLADE part of its name - to be a true gish subclass.
I THINK they're trying to pivot from "Person with a magic weapon that's part of a greater whole" to "The magic weapon IS your patron, but doesn't need to necessarily give you a weapon". Pact of the Blade covers most of the stuff Hexblade dips did, & they don't want to alienate those who don't want to be Bladelocks.
Remember to consider those who do not optimize, powergame, metagame or rules lawyer, as well as new, younger and/or casual players(all of the above are valid in their own ways, times &/or places, BTW). Because they deserve an opt-out of the Gish stuff if they want it.
Ha! So it does. Still, hate it... Lol
It's honestly still a crappy ability. There's no reason it doesn't work with armor. It's just a shield w/ prerequisites, on a class with an armor proficiency. As is, it's an additional invocation tax. And it STILL has the problem of losing the previous proficiencies that is going to make at least some current Hexblades unplayable by destroying their defense (like mine, for instance, currently running medium armor and a shield).
Yeah that should definitely not limit you from wearing light armor since light armor is a 2024 warlock armor training. I guess there is precedence for this sort of thing since dance bard has a feature that requires you not to wear armor, but that is a damage calculation and far better than a +2. I like it as a method to give incentive to playing a Hexblade in melee ranges, but it does become an invocation tax by dropping the armor training given by the base class. Maybe even if it read if not wearing heavy armor or a shield I could accept it as not just being bad. I’ll need more time with it to make a final verdict.
Given that it's effectively a shield that doesn't take up a free hand, I would definitely be ok with not stacking with a shield, but a +2 is just not worth the lack of armor or a forced invocation tax.
They fixed the op "dip" problem by delaying the subclass to level 3. A 1 level dip that gave medium armor proficiency, let you use cha for attack and defense, and hexblade's curse for a 19-20 critical against 1 target *was* OP, for sorcerers, valor bards, paladins and swashbuckler rogues.
A 2014 hexblade/2024 warlock just isn't an impressive martial compared to champion/battlemaster/etc fighter, paladin, or valor bard.
But they obviously agreed/realized that the first UA draft was bad/weak/poorly-flavored because they released a significant revamp that was less bad. At least it now has blade/melee flavored abilities, and they are leaning more heavily into cursing. So they are no2 matching my suggestion in terms of flavor if not implementation.
A Dual wielding hexblade was *never* a problem (more flavor than mechanical benefit) because you have to limit yourself to d6 or smaller weapons to get the extra attack.
2024 5e hands out weapon masteries and fighting style (fighter rogue, etc) like Halloween candy, the hexblade getting them at level 3 just reduces the incentive to multiclass (and starting fighter 1 grants armor, con save, weapon masteries etc.). So it's discourages multiclassing, which is where the OP builds came from.
Compare a fighter /bladelock 12 (pick any 1024 subclass)/valor bard 3/champion-fighter 2-3/bard 4/Fighter 4 (i'd personality choose battelmast but champion although weaker is more of an apples to apples comparison) against my proposed pact of blade hexblade 16/valor bard (ending with valor bard 4 and hexblade 16).... they're not that far apart but the 3 way multiclassing is farther ahead in my book.
My jinx is a best side grade to the original armor of hexes. Roll again take the worst is less beneficial against a strong opponent (the one you were going to curse) and limited uses is a nerf but it's more flexible (can be used against things other than attacks made against you)
against high leve It's not a straight 50% miss chance regardless of
Giving hexblade 2 weapon masteries
the assumption is that you are using mage armor by some means, so its basically your dex + 5 while you are close to an effected target. which, is pretty much unarmored defense level of AC.
but that means you are getting mage armor by some means, which they can do if they want, and its going to be a trade off of some sort.
my main issue is that you cant transfer this effect, so it really is only going to be available some times. Even if you apply it with hex, only the first monster you hex will get the cursed status. like this guy really wont do well against groups, Once you kill a target you are substantially less effective unless you want to burn another limited resource
Would it be too strong for the +2 AC to apply to being within 10ft of any enemy that is cursed? That would allow them to still benefit from moving their hex spell and from getting into melee with targets the cleric used Bane spell or some other curse on. I don’t think that is broken if it is only for the accursed shield portion. Also I still feel that it should allow for light armor to be worn. The player who has been playing wearing light armor shouldn’t get to level three and suddenly need to switch to mage armor or gain no benefit from this feature.
Honestly, it should just be a permanent effect. It's a shield. That's it. On a class that can't use medium or heavy armor without 1st level dips or feat investments, an extra +2 to AC isn't going to break anything. But this also brings up that language needs major clarifications for Hex since it can be transferred. Is it only good for the first target, or does it move with since it lasts the duration of the spell? Moving Hex isn't a new casting, so if it doesn't change targets, it seems you can't reapply it through Hex, meaning it takes extra actions to get it on a second target after you move Hex (since you don't have the spell slots to go casting Hex willy-nilly to reapply it).
Well, figured I'd do this again like I did for the first iteration:
it seems like to me, the intent of the hexblades curse is its one creature per casting of anysource. I can see interpreting it differently, but it seems like a stretch
The advantage is you can use it while concentrating on something else, the disadvantage is its uptime is a lot lower. its basically chr Mod monsters per day, + whatever pact slots you are willing to spend/have on curses.
i honestly prefer it being tied to hex, but im more of i want to have these abilities most of the time whenit comes to martial stuff. I can see it being ok to be limited.
still that means most of your subclass features are going to be available even less often than the previous hexblade, who probably only gave them up to use a very strong concentration spell.
I honestly agree with you regarding intent, though with so much tied to Hexblade's Curse, I also worry about how often you won't get most of your subclass abilities. But it absolutely needs to be properly clarified. Spells that can transfer targets are kind of abnormal, so if something modifies them, they need to make it clear how that something works.
i don't think it would be OP for it to have more uptime, and i also think its odd to get essentially no benefit if you didnt procure mage armor outside of the subclass. But it does make sense that its an unarmored thing. (unarmored is a lot harder to improve via finding items) they are essentially capping the effect at 20. whereas light armor with +2 AC caps the effect at 23. Probably they should add mage armor to the class list, or give 1 free use or something.
i think they should probably let, or make it clear that hex(or whatever other curse lets you transfer) transfers the effect. I think if that isnt the intent this subclass is going to feel really lame when you run out charges or a creature dies, not just from this feature, but most of them.
that said maybe the base warlock is fine enough, and the benefits of hexblade curse are strong enough that only getting it sometimes *the toughest enemies) is good enough, just feels weird that only one feature in the class doesnt depend on having a curse, and we are talking about maybe 5-10 monsters a day? depending on level. I just been rolling random battles to test some stuff, and its not unccommon to have encounters with 5-12 enemies,
i suppose on longer days you are supposed to spend pact slots cursing people (probably with bestow curse). I guess they are the ultimate one guy subclass.
The reason they don’t allow Hexblade curse to be transferable as Hex spell is the hungering hex portion of the ability and the “bag of rats” use.
I think it’s thematic and not broken to allow the “accursed” portions of the features to work on any cursed enemy. That means you get the +2 ac from being with 10 feet of and the improved crit on any ememy with any curse on them. I do like the +2 bonus coming from being within melee range. It incentivizes a play style. Another option would be to also allow you to apply you hexblade’s curse as part of an attack against a target that is already cursed. That way when you use a bonus action to move your hex spell you can apply a new hexblade’s curse against that target when you attack it.
I think the reason accused critical is given so late is to avoid stepping on the champions toes. I’m a proponent of getting it sooner, but I can understand why they give it later. Speaking of the 14th level feature I believe if accursed critical worked on all cursed targets it’s fine as part of the capstone feature. Explosive Hex is supposed to be equivalent to a 5th level spell. It needs to do more damage. Because it does something other than damage, has no save and can be used with no action it doesn’t have to deal the most damage, but a minimum 5d6 feels appropriate. Honestly I think everyone should get a save and the damage boosted to 10d6 with half on successful save. Hex restoration may be fine but I would need to actually play test it to know if I need more Hexblade curses per day.
Armor of hexes still feels off. I like it’s more consistent and can be used against all damage but the 2014 version felt more impactful. Would a happy middle ground be too strong. As a reaction you reduce the damage by your warlock level + 1d4, if you roll a 4 on the d4 you instead reduce the damage to 0.
I agree that it should not be as strong. It's just odd that they're pushing the HB to not wear armor at all, though, I guess with the increased # of uses of HB Curse, it's not as bas as it sounds on paper.
I was initially surprised that Mage Armor wasn't on the spell list, but it is an Invocation (Armor of Shadows, unlimited use of Mage Armor on yourself) that you could take at level 1.
The issue is that you have to either expend your only spell slot (at levels 1 and 2) for mage armor, or forgo an invocation like Agonizing Blast at level 1 for Armor of Shadows, then pick it up at level 2. Is that terrible? No, 1st and even 2nd level characters (at least casters) SHOULD be focused on survival more at earlier levels. I dunno - on paper it seems bad. Thinking it out it seems . . . less bad.
a couple of thoughts on the new Hexblade patron as presented .....
i calculate with 4 combats a day, and 5 rounds for each combat
Hexblade curse :
this can be used on 3-5 targets a day ( and it is not transferable ) so all the "bonus" to AC is useless as soon as your target dies
* C- ( an ability that is up for ~2 rounds each combat is not worth much not too mention you need to be w/o armor & shield, i give it a little bump to c- for granting some bonuses and not needing concentration )
Unyielding will :
it's an ok ability, the downside is just its only useable once / long rest
* C+
MALIGN BRUTALITY
Harrowing Hex ( finally something that is worthy of the blade in the patron )
Hindering Curse ( semi - useful for the time the curse is up )
Inescapable Hex ( sounds ok at first glance, at second when will a target you curse ever move away that much ?
* B-
ARMOR OF HEXES
sounds ok at first, but when you think about it is only working on the target you cursed, and how "often" your curse is up its usefulness gets way down
* C-
MASTERFUL HEX
Accursed Critical ( way too late, otherwise this is the 1st ability realy worth it )
Explosive Hex ( nice ability, but for a pact slot at this lvl i could just as well use a spell that is dealing more damage )
Hex Restoration ( with this the curse ability is finally getting useable, but its way way way too late, this should be moved down to 6th Level at the latest )
* B ( little reduction for that they come way too late )
overall rating : C+, get back to the drawing board imho this iteration is a tiny bit better then the one in the Horror UA but still not something i would force on my players
the old one is actually leagues better in terms of uptime. You could basically have your hex and associated features whenever you want, and drop it on the occaisons when you are using a superior concentration effect.
this one lets you use it with other concentration, but severely limits your uptime. Are the effects powerful enough to justify that? maybe, i have to do the math, but it seems like in actual play, they are going to get to use their features a lot less often, and they arent really much more durable, and are probably going to spend less time concentrating on other spells anyway, since after 3-5 monsters, you will only get hexblade curse while concentrating on hex or bestow curse. So now you are using 1 pact slot per fight and similarly locked out.
but, it is more designed around melee, and that was a different ask, so its got that going for it.
honestly i dont think its any better than last UA, but it is different, and maybe its closer to the vision people have for the class, we ll see.
Accursed shield is a bad, rough band-aid on the ongoing problem: without dipping into another class, there's no good way for hexblades to get medium armor and shield training. As said before, going on RAW, the hexblade will have to take the Lightly Armored feat - despite already having training in Light Armor - get training in shields, which then allows them to use the next feat to get the Moderately Armored feat.
And that brings the character to 8th level. Given that few campaigns make it past 10th or 12th level, the hexblade has just wasted both feats to get something already available in the previous version. It's honestly kind of infuriating. This is such bad design, and is so easily fixed. They must really hate the version of this subclass from Xanathar's.
This persisting from the previous UA tells me that some folks above are right: the game designers simply don't want the hexblade - despite the BLADE part of its name - to be a true gish subclass.
I THINK they're trying to pivot from "Person with a magic weapon that's part of a greater whole" to "The magic weapon IS your patron, but doesn't need to necessarily give you a weapon". Pact of the Blade covers most of the stuff Hexblade dips did, & they don't want to alienate those who don't want to be Bladelocks.
Remember to consider those who do not optimize, powergame, metagame or rules lawyer, as well as new, younger and/or casual players(all of the above are valid in their own ways, times &/or places, BTW). Because they deserve an opt-out of the Gish stuff if they want it.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.