My only complaint: STOP PUTTING THE SPELL MAGIC WEAPON IN DOMAIN SPELLS!! ITS USELESS FOR THIS CLASS!! And any class that depends on a weapon!!
Yes it's good if you don't have a magical weapon, but for hexblade you can take PotB and the weapon becomes magical and then you cannot use the spell magic weapon at all. Give it like. Shadowblade or something, godsdamnit.
booming blade isnt used when you use twf, it used when you arent, aka using your BA on something else, like a spell or applying hex.
Okay but that wasn't stated. None the less BB's trigger is unlikely to happen as melee combatants seldom move around when they get into the fray due to OAs and because they usually stick to hitting the first available target. Pair it with a Martial with Push W.Mastery and you got a good shot though. (I played a Bladesinger from lvl 10-15 and BB triggered three or four times so far. Once because the target had a specific target in the back, once due to War Caster, the others because I was under Greater Invisibility and the enemy was non-intelligent and didn't perceive me.)
the comparison was elemental monk who isnt gaining baseline damage at level 3, its also mostly supposed to compare someone who cares about defense, and being in melle/ranged hybrid combat.
I must be missing some context because I don't see Elemental Monk being referenced in the post you replied to or their previous post.
i didnt compare ki use for damage here, because this was a baseline comparison, hex is its own resources. This was a top line view, i later go into more explicit use. But the point is the monk can use its ki for defense in comparison to warlock using pact slots for defense. The warlock could also use pact slots for offense like the monk could use it for offense. in this anayisis i didnt compare, but i can tell you that the best offensive value of ki at level 3 is one attack, or d6+3. or the reaction deflect attacks, 2MA+dex the save does zero damage if the succeed, so these are pretty close in value. about 4 or 5. if we choose 5 (deflect attacks), its 15 damage per SR.
the offensive value of a pact slots at level 3 is 2 level 2 spells. if we want one warlock that best compares its hellish rebuke, which at level is 3d10 with half damage on success roughly thats 75% damage on average for 12.375 per, or 24.75 dpr per SR. without effecting other sources if dpr. that said i wasnt going to assume the monk was going to use its ki offensively, since this in reply to a post about how the monk could be a skirmisher, and might be using ki for step of the wind or patient defense.
Hex being its own resource doesn't really matter. It's a limited resource, so if you're going to account for it, you really should account for all limited resources (that can easily be accounted for). Also didn't you state that Monks never use BA for disengage/general defense because it hinders their damage too much? Then why wouldn't you assume the best possible strategy for the Monk and use its KI for offense?
It is a bit iffy comparing damage from spells or features that uses Saves and applying their average damage contributions based on assumptions on defense but not do it for Attack Rolls (I know I didn't do it before either). It seems you did account for a 65% hit rate in this comparison and saves at about 50% fail rate (user success) assuming 13 DC against +2 WIS save mod. TBH that's likely a bit on the high side for save mod. at lvl 3. Maybe 55% fail rate is closer - alas to the Warlock's advantage at this point because the difference in amount between spell slots and KI points is low. If not accounting for hit rate, KI points equate to an attack that's 1d6 + 3 or 6.5 a piece for 19.5 Dmg per SR/Metabolism. 12.7 Dmg with 65% assumed hit rate, making Deflect Attacks preferred at 15 Dmg per SR/Metabolism.
and as i said, if the monk didnt have deflect attacks there would be no comparison.
I never said otherwise. Deflect Attack provides a major boost to Monk's effective health and is a major reason they still exist as frontliners at this level.
using its ki still leaves it behind the hex by itself. a monk can expect, 1 SR per day and has uncanny metobolism, for 9ki per day, or 45 damage. hex given 1.5 attacks per round and 16 rounds a day, would be 84 damage. it might vary due to losing concentration, but in that comparison ki is being expended to combat hex, so that means the value of pact slots is not included. assuming the same rest structure, the warlock gets 5 pact slots. which, if we are examing dpr is 12.375 per slot. even assuming we are using pact slots defensively to temper deflect attacks, armor of agathys does damage.
Where do you get the Warlock's 1.5 attacks per round? TWF? Accounting for Hex casts/transfers every 2nd round?
Where do you get the 16 rounds from? Assuming combat encounters lasts 3-4 rounds - lets say 4 rounds - you really expect 4 combat encounters per day? The 2014 DMG advises that an adventuring party can handle 6-8 medium to hard encounters - but that includes social, exploration and combat encounters. I think 2 is more the norm but 3 definitely being possible.
Assuming 100% up-time on Hex is... generous. You have 3 casts per Long Rest and whenever you do get hit, you minimum have to clear a DC 10 Concentration Save, with the +2 CON mod. you have 35% chance to break concentration. The 1 hour duration have a chance to carry over between fights, but is only really "reliable" if you're raiding a dungeon with combat encounters packed almost back-to-back and no need for Short Rests. Generous assumptions in my eyes.
More realistically I would assume 12 rounds of combat with 75% Hex uptime.
The TWF-lock using BA every 2nd round on Hex cast/transfer would do: 1.5 attack per round * 12 rounds: [ 16d6 + 12 * 3 + 12d6 ] * 65% hit rate = 87.1 damage per day
Hellish Rebukes can add: 5 * 3d10 * 75% = 61.9 damage (however I do just now see that it requires V and S components and thus is ineligible for a TWF, unless you're juggling your draw/stow like a maniac given your DM allows that)
Using a Longsword instead: 1 attack per round * 12 rounds: 12 * [1d10 + 3 + 1d6 * 75%] * 65% hit rate = 86.8 damage per day
The Monk can dish out: 2 attacks per round * 12 rounds: 24 * [1d6 + 3 + 0.4 Tavern Brawler ] * 65% hit rate = 107.6 damage per day
KI points can add: 9 * [2d6 + 3] * 50% = 45 damage per day
Using Flurry instead: 9 * [1d6 + 3 + 0.4] * 65% hit rate = 40.4 damage per day (and is not dependent on triggering Deflect Attack's full damage absorption)
The damage is surprisingly equivalent using Hellish Rebuke. The Warlock have potential to reach higher given carry-over Hex duration or higher uptime than my assumption. However the Warlock is now using their Pact slots for offense, whilst the Monk fully utilize Deflect Attack to pad their effective health by up to 11.5 per activation. Fiendish Vigor provides the Warlock with 12 Temp HP before every fight. Using it during a fight lowers their damage by a significant amount.
which brings up false life and armor of agathys, those can be used pre combat since their durations are large, and in combat, due to thier combo, they still do damage while providing defense.
Many CR 3 monsters deal 10+ damage, so Armor of Agathys is likely to end after one hit. Regardless the 1 hour duration is not reliable to carry over from combat encounter to combat encounter. I did just look it up and learned that they changed it from an Action to a Bonus Action to cast. That's pretty neat.
Fiendish Vigor's 12 Temp HP fares slightly better at this level, but at the cost of your Action. Definitely worth against many smaller enemies but against CR-equivalent enemies, I wouldn't use FV in combat to keep AoA up.
to be honest, i only examined this level because the poster wanted to talk about lower level comparisons, most people agree hexblade has no issues at this level. ranger and hexblade will dominate in t1 and t2 discussions due to the nature of hex and HM.
Fair.
Once we hit lvl 4 the Monk likely picks up the Grappler feat that allows them to both Grapple and deal Damage in the same attack. Granting ADV on their attacks against the Grappled target to increase their hit rate to 87.8% boosting their damage to 24 * [1d6 + 4 + 0.4] * 87.8% hit rate = 166.5 damage + KI's 12 * [2d6 + 4] * 50% = 66 damage
Two-hander Fighter picks up GWM to add + Prof. Bonus to every attack's damage henceforth and on occasion get a BA attack.
The Sword-and-board has less obvious feat choices but could range from PAM to Heavy Armor Master for the passive Prof. Bonus damage reduction to Shield Master for the discount Evasion and free Shove action.
I don't see big improvements for the Warlock from a feat here, other than PAM-spear for non-TWF. War Caster and Resilient are nice options to bolster your Hex uptime.
as for being 15=20 feet away being ranged combat, i mean if you consider ranged combat being anything more than 5 feet away as ranged combat sure, but that means polearms are ranged combat. And you are not getting much melee protection at these ranges. if a monster can walk up to you and melee without dashing, you arent much safer than being 5 feet away from it. they can use their melee abilities, and put opportunity attack pressure on you. the main advantage is an offensive one, of being able to choose from more targets, from more positions.
most mages dont consider their 10 or 20 foot cones as 'ranged' options but if we want to consider midrange combat options, warlock still wins. it can also throw daggers for 2d6+2d4+3 compared to monks 2d6+3 at range.
I consider range to be outside immediate walk+hit distance. When considering the Elemental Monk "safe" in range, I would use my melee allies as a buffer and/or the push-mechanics (either from the subclass or the guaranteed 5 ft. push from Tavern Brawler on-hit) so the enemy don't have a straight 30 ft. line to me. But no Monks don't really have what I consider a good ranged option.
If you really believe a martial class blows hexblade's offense/defense out the water at a specific level range, pick one and we can do a more in depth analysis.
Sure, that could be fun. I don't have the time right now, but will revisit this.
I put BB in paranthesis, its nit part of my main damage calculation, and i took it as an option. not something they are going to use all the time. this hexblade was built to be a versatile skirmisher who can attack at multiple ranges, and adapt as it see fit and action economy allows. Blade pact can be whatever weapon it needs as a BA. I cant say ahead of time what its going to do, im just outlining its options. As for why booming blade, booming blade can make an enemy less likely to move, or take damage if it does, thats useful in either case. the warlock might at times be using booming blade via halberd and thus be able to create distance and greater advantage to it not moving. The same exact warlock can also choose to get down and dirty with dual wielding Its also not a solo situation, so there will be tactics that involve or change with other players.
As for why elemental monk, because its a simple choice for comparison, shadow monk depends alot on your tactical skills, and your groups, and the situation, mercy monk consumes ki or gives up attacks, and thus creates a lot of issues about various possible ways they might act. But my monk choice was less important, the context is people saying that hexblade is an inferior skirmisher to monk, and i wanted to show that at even level 3, the hexblade can be an excellent skirmisher. Better than the monk at the same build type. For that purpose i cant assume the monk wont at times spend ki towards skirmishing. The elemental monk spends 1 ki in order to get elemental arms for example, and this person im talking to concieves of the monk simetimes using disengage and ranged attacks, though i personally think its a bad idea. So i cant really get too far into what they will use the ki for, i just put into defensive.
hex being its own resource matters immensely when comparing it to ki/monk at this level. because ki is either trying to compete with hex, or trying to compete with pact slots, it cannot compete with both. Also hex is basically almost always there if wanted.
ki matches up poorly in dpr to hex, and poorly in dpr to pact slots. I chose to compare ki+deflect attacks to pact slots. 3 ki is basically 3 dodges or 3 patient defense/dashes which is inferior to pact slots alone, as expeditious retreat alone basically = multiple patient defenses 3 dodges is similar in value to one mirror images, its actually weaker but it doesnt use an action.
4 encounters per day isnt guaranteed, but nothing is, at some level you have to choose a metric and evaluate based on it. 3 combat encounters a day is seen as being fairly generous most analysis i ve seen use the 4 combat, 4 round metric. If i was going for 3 combats, they would probably be harder and longer which essentially even out. three 5 round combats is 15 rounds.
I dont consider that a dm is going to refuse players to equip or unequip items as instructed by the rules. DMs homebrew , but incant really account for homebrew, especially something like equiping objects. That said, i wasnt really saying i would take hellish rebuke, i was merely trying to give the best and most direct value equivalent of monk, the most efficient ki use for damage at level 3 is deflect attacks, which is a reaction that consumes 1 ki, so i chose a pact spell that also consumes a resource to do damage as reaction so its very 1 to 1. This is not me saying, lets take this spell or a monk should always use deflect attacks ki, but rather, comparing the offensive value of ki versus a pact slot at level 3. I imagine a dual wielder would have extra difficulties and have to go out their way to free a hand if they chose to use their pact slots on hellish rebuke, but thats up to them.
remember my prefered comparison is ki+standard defense to pact+standard defense, since people are talking about survivability. If i was gonna use my pact slot for offense, id probably rather wrathful smite since it also has defensive application, and the 3d6 always lands, (since you choose to use it after hits) and can be thrown on crits.
as far as hex uptime, hard to say, but i wasnt really making a determination it would have 100% uptime, i was saying the potential is 80ish dpr and the potential of ki was about 40ish dpr. even if its uptime is lower, it at very least equals ki used for offense, or surpasses its value. that would leave pact slots as just competing with deflect attacks with no ki, which i think favors pact slots.
as far as level 4, the hexblade warlock could also go for a weapon based feature if they desire to, but even if they go for warcaster, that would increase hex/concentration uptime and add cantrip opportunity attacks, of which booming blade is great at. So its really up to them, if they choose warcaster, they value it more than gwm/dualwielder/pam, etc. which means the martials arent really gaining much. Its slightly less effecient if the hexblade is going int main, but they are ahead more than 5% accuracy and 1 dmg per hit at level 4.
1). I personally would have been happy with an updated Hexblade - basic 2024 updates which would likely include at least a couple small buffs. I think a version could be done that would not make them the “best” bladelock but could compete with the PHB subclasses.
2) A 2024 bladelock is fine in T1 and T2 for dmg potential, but is behind other martial, with debatably worse defense (you can really only pour warlock resources into 1 or the other, AoA being a possible exception). Any argument saying they are better, especially without an armor dip, than other martials seems to be cherry-picking. I’ll reference Treantmonk’s class dmg comparisons (he made an armor dip bladelock his single target baseline for 2024 based on his math). You may not agree but he makes a great case that the other classes are better in T1/2. The 3rd attack is the difference maker and the big boost (as it is for the fighter)
3). This subclass as it exists is well underpowered. You do not get enough to make the hex use worthwhile; the opportunity cost of concentration is too high. I think it could be made to work, but I need to see more oomph. Currently an armor dip gets me more than this subclass when it matters in game, and I can take a different subclass with better or more flexible features instead.
1). I personally would have been happy with an updated Hexblade - basic 2024 updates which would likely include at least a couple small buffs. I think a version could be done that would not make them the “best” bladelock but could compete with the PHB subclasses.
2) A 2024 bladelock is fine in T1 and T2 for dmg potential, but is behind other martial, with debatably worse defense (you can really only pour warlock resources into 1 or the other, AoA being a possible exception). Any argument saying they are better, especially without an armor dip, than other martials seems to be cherry-picking. I’ll reference Treantmonk’s class dmg comparisons (he made an armor dip bladelock his single target baseline for 2024 based on his math). You may not agree but he makes a great case that the other classes are better in T1/2. The 3rd attack is the difference maker and the big boost (as it is for the fighter)
3). This subclass as it exists is well underpowered. You do not get enough to make the hex use worthwhile; the opportunity cost of concentration is too high. I think it could be made to work, but I need to see more oomph. Currently an armor dip gets me more than this subclass when it matters in game, and I can take a different subclass with better or more flexible features instead.
hexblade has more built in defence than regular bladelock mostly due to the level 10 ability, but you are underestimating regular bladelocks defense. Hexblade can also use hex for offense, and pact slots for. defense. A big mistake people are making here is thinking because you cant concentrate on two spells there is no value. Fact is warlock gets 2 to 3 pact spells per SR, getting 5 free enhanced hex slots means you can be offensive and use pact slots on defense, or you can be more offensive.
treant monk never claimed he made exhaustive lists, or best builds, he just made some builds he would play or wanted to test out. He also was not going for overall anything, but was building for single target damage. Its also a fallacy to say its behind other martials in DPR. he literally chose warlock GWM as the baseline, meaning its in the middle. ranger, monk (without assuming 100% advantage) and rougue are behind it in damage.
He wasnt calculating based on defense or real play. I'd say hexblades overall defense is A teir. in terms of martials.
i just did this recently, and i'll add hexblade to the teir list
going by damage:surviability:support: control
hexblade A:A:B:S
monk B+:S:C:A
fighter A:A:C:A
Paladin S:S:S:S
barbarian S:A:B:C
Ranger B+:B:S:A
Rogue B:B:A:B
id say monk and paladin are most survivable, but not really due to superior AC, but rather other features. I never claimed hexblade is the best martialish class, but rather that its actually where it needs to be. Giving it medium shield would shift it to being fairly top teir martial. essentially increasing its offense, (because less need for defensive spells,) and defense.
and to be clear im not saying they should or have to do this hexblade, i am saying it is not a mechanically weak martial class. I think they could go other directions from a design standpoint.
perhaps it is not the best, i dont really deep dive into full caster power levels, but its powerlevel is on par with other martials, and i think as good as a pseudo martial should be at being a martial. A psuedo martial should never be the best martial, because it can still fall back on its non martial abilities. Its actually positioned fairly well, especially considering its greatest strengths are in t1 and 2 where most games occur. (actually beats most martials in these teirs)
hexblade has more built in defence than regular bladelock mostly due to the level 10 ability, but you are underestimating regular bladelocks defense. Hexblade can also use hex for offense, and pact slots for. defense. A big mistake people are making here is thinking because you cant concentrate on two spells there is no value. Fact is warlock gets 2 to 3 pact spells per SR, getting 5 free enhanced hex slots means you can be offensive and use pact slots on defense, or you can be more offensive.
treant monk never claimed he made exhaustive lists, or best builds, he just made some builds he would play or wanted to test out. He also was not going for overall anything, but was building for single target damage. Its also a fallacy to say its behind other martials in DPR. he literally chose warlock GWM as the baseline, meaning its in the middle. ranger, monk (without assuming 100% advantage) and rougue are behind it in damage.
He wasnt calculating based on defense or real play.
perhaps it is not the best, i dont really deep dive into full caster power levels, but its powerlevel is on par with other martials, and i think as good as a pseudo martial should be at being a martial. A psuedo martial should never be the best martial, because it can still fall back on its non martial abilities. Its actually positioned fairly well, especially considering its greatest strengths are in t1 and 2 where most games occur. (actually beats most martials in these teirs)
(I snipped out some bits)
Treantmonk obviously wasn’t exhaustive, but he was trying to determine the best single target DPR for each class bs one another (both with and without subclass). The bladelock became baseline - which for him was ok damage (or minimum acceptable for the role). In T1 and T2 it was definitely not better than ranger (who was actually #1 in T1 with TWF and craters in T3). Monk and rogue were middle of the road. Bladelocks take off when they get 3rd attack and again with foresight.
Also, he may not have made perfect or builds to your taste, but he was full focusing all abilities (including spells) into damage when possible. TM also notes that he would absolutely take an armor dip to make it viable as a melee PC. You can disagree, but it’s super efficient (moreso than any other way to improve defense within the base class).
Hex is an ok spell for T1, less so as you progress - similar to Hunters Mark. This subclass doesn’t give enough to trade off other concentration spells overall.
Trust me, I’m well aware that a bladelock is already a good martial option; that’s part of the warlock base when you take the right invocations. I don’t agree their defense is “good” - yes you can use your limited resources to supplement. I would argue that is still just part of the base bladelock. Hexblade makes it “easier” with free castings of a minor damage spell with some mostly minor perks, but it feels more of a trap than good feature in this iteration.
Old Hexblade wasn’t OP because it got medium armor and shield prof; it was OP because it got them at lvl 1 with CHA for attacks. Beyond that, I don’t think the subclass was great over a career (maybe good). The subclass now won’t be front-loaded, so getting at least medium armor at level 3 still won’t make them OP, especially compared to other martials.
If this was the future of the Hexblade, my High Elf Charlatan Hexblade would become a High Elf Charlatan Celestial Warlock. With the ability to choose Fire Bolt as their Wizard cantrip, they can use Radiant Soul on it. It would also work with True Strike. They can heal themselves with a bonus action until their pool of Healing Light dice is depleted.
I would start with 8/17/13/10/10/16 stats, taking Polearm Master at level 4 to bump dexterity to 18, using a spear, +2 to charisma at 8, and Resilient: Con at level 12.
Since starting with 150 gold, and not needing to spend gold on weapons, it's easy to afford studded leather as the starting option. It's not worth spending an invocation on Armor of Shadows.
Armor of Agathys and False Life are not specific to Hexblade, so if they confer bonus survival to Hexblade, they confer it to any Warlock.
The four "must take" invocations for a Blade Pact Warlock in my opinion are Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Devouring Blade. Eldritch Smite should probably be left until you have three Pact Slots, level 15 say. Lessons of the First Ones: Magic Initiate [Wizard] can give you a free casting of Shield each long rest, while still being able to cast it with Pact Slots if you must, along with two Wizard cantrips.
I don't suppose it's unreasonable to have obtained some +1, or even +2 studded leather at level 12.
Purely on offense, the level 12 PotB Warlock, just using Hex, neglecting more powerful options like Spirit Shroud, is rolling 0.65 (3(d8+4) + (d4+4) + 4(d6) + (d6)) damage, for 30 damge per round, regaining an average of 6.5HP if you expend a hit die. Would potentially healing 78 damage (12 dice) over the course of the fight justify using an invocation on Lifedrinker.
Actually, belay that statement about Lifedrinker being a must-take invocation. I was thinking that it still worked like the Paladin's Radiant Strikes, working on every hit the Warlock inflicted. It's only once per turn, and I'm not sure an extra 3.5 damage a turn is worth sacrificing something as valuable as an invocation. Replacing Hex with Spirit Shroud, assuming Tasha's is an accepted sourcebook, would add 0.65(4(2d8)) damage per round, or 23 damage. That's a much better investment.
A GWM Fighter (str 20) with PAM and a d10 weapon is doing 0.65(3(d10+5)+(d4+5)+4) is doing 28 average, neglecting other damage sources like maneuvers.
A high AC gives you a reducation in damage taken, but it also reduces the number of concentration checks you have to make. You can take Resilient: Con and the Eldritch Mind invocation to help maintain concentration though.
At level 12 Warlocks have 8 invocations. If four are taken for Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Devouring Blade, what should the other four invocations be?
Eldritch Mind gives us advantage on Concentration checks. That's often useful in a fight, especially if you only have 16AC and 87HP.
Lessons of the First Ones: Magic Initiate (Wizard) for the Shield spell.
One With Shadows: On demand Invisibility, so long as you're able to find a patch of shadows to cast the spell in.
Mask of Many Faces: On demand Disguise Self. My favorite invocation. Just make yourself look like someone wearing heavy armor, and maybe people won't try to hit you.
When I first heard that there was a hexblade coming out, I was really excited. I was thinking of all the things they could do, like make it so you can gain weapon mastery with your pact weapon, and maybe make it so that if you take an attack action as a hexblade with thirsting blade make it so one the first attack can be a cantrip. Maybe have a way to add charisma to armor instead of the medium armor proficiency. But we got none of that. The hexblade we received was just a major disappointment.
If this was the future of the Hexblade, my High Elf Charlatan Hexblade would become a High Elf Charlatan Celestial Warlock. With the ability to choose Fire Bolt as their Wizard cantrip, they can use Radiant Soul on it. It would also work with True Strike. They can heal themselves with a bonus action until their pool of Healing Light dice is depleted.
I would start with 8/17/13/10/10/16 stats, taking Polearm Master at level 4 to bump dexterity to 18, using a spear, +2 to charisma at 8, and Resilient: Con at level 12.
Since starting with 150 gold, and not needing to spend gold on weapons, it's easy to afford studded leather as the starting option. It's not worth spending an invocation on Armor of Shadows.
Armor of Agathys and False Life are not specific to Hexblade, so if they confer bonus survival to Hexblade, they confer it to any Warlock.
The four "must take" invocations for a Blade Pact Warlock in my opinion are Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Devouring Blade. Eldritch Smite should probably be left until you have three Pact Slots, level 15 say. Lessons of the First Ones: Magic Initiate [Wizard] can give you a free casting of Shield each long rest, while still being able to cast it with Pact Slots if you must, along with two Wizard cantrips.
I don't suppose it's unreasonable to have obtained some +1, or even +2 studded leather at level 12.
Purely on offense, the level 12 PotB Warlock, just using Hex, neglecting more powerful options like Spirit Shroud, is rolling 0.65 (3(d8+4) + (d4+4) + 4(d6) + (d6)) damage, for 30 damge per round, regaining an average of 6.5HP if you expend a hit die. Would potentially healing 78 damage (12 dice) over the course of the fight justify using an invocation on Lifedrinker.
Actually, belay that statement about Lifedrinker being a must-take invocation. I was thinking that it still worked like the Paladin's Radiant Strikes, working on every hit the Warlock inflicted. It's only once per turn, and I'm not sure an extra 3.5 damage a turn is worth sacrificing something as valuable as an invocation. Replacing Hex with Spirit Shroud, assuming Tasha's is an accepted sourcebook, would add 0.65(4(2d8)) damage per round, or 23 damage. That's a much better investment.
A GWM Fighter (str 20) with PAM and a d10 weapon is doing 0.65(3(d10+5)+(d4+5)+4) is doing 28 average, neglecting other damage sources like maneuvers.
A high AC gives you a reducation in damage taken, but it also reduces the number of concentration checks you have to make. You can take Resilient: Con and the Eldritch Mind invocation to help maintain concentration though.
At level 12 Warlocks have 8 invocations. If four are taken for Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Devouring Blade, what should the other four invocations be?
Eldritch Mind gives us advantage on Concentration checks. That's often useful in a fight, especially if you only have 16AC and 87HP.
Lessons of the First Ones: Magic Initiate (Wizard) for the Shield spell.
One With Shadows: On demand Invisibility, so long as you're able to find a patch of shadows to cast the spell in.
Mask of Many Faces: On demand Disguise Self. My favorite invocation. Just make yourself look like someone wearing heavy armor, and maybe people won't try to hit you.
hexblade is no longer the melee warlock, all warlocks can melee if they want, hexblade is an attack based warlock who gets greater utility and use from the hex spell. If you arent interested in that, its not going to be that appealing.
but most of that was already in place with the 2024 warlock changes.
There’s a feat for Weapon Masteries, which is a better option because any gish can take it and it also keeps the Masteries as a mostly martial feature as they’re intended to be.
Hexblade's curse using concentration? No thank you. The changes to armor of hexes? Hard pass. And what part of the new hexblade has anything to do with BLADES?
So i proposed to instead make the 2024 hexblade the ultimate warlock-gish and up the ante on his/her ability to curse.
First the 2014 master of hexes is now just part of the base hexblade's curse.
Second the hexblade still gets a hexweapon that (s)he can use as an arcane focus and can use his/her cha bonus for attack and damage with, but if they have the pact of the blade invocation then the hexweapon also counts as a pact weapon.
Third, at warlock 3, the hexblade gets 2 weapon masteries and a fighting style, so if a bladelock wants to dual wield then hexblade is the way to do it but this also makes him/her a better gish of any stripe.
Fourth, replace accursed spectre with the ability to replace one attack, that would otherwise have been made with the hexweapon as part of an attack action with a cantrip that normall costs an attack action to cast. So it cqn be used in place of one dual 2i3lding attack (e.g. if one of the weapon materies was nick), it applies to thorsting hlade, or if 6ouv3 got 5 levels of fighter it'd work with that too.
Fifth, replace armor of hexes with "jinx" when the target of your hexblade's curse makes a d20 check, you can use you4 reaction to jinx them causing them to roll another d20 and take the worse result. You can us3 the jinx reaction proficiency bonus times per short or long rest.
Sixth, here are 2 options for replacing th3 old armor of hexes. Option 1: "jinx again" after you use the jinx reaction, the target of your hexblade's curse also has disadvantage on the next d20 check they make. Option 2: a new "Master of hexes': you can simultaneously affect 2 targets with your hexblade's curse. A single bonus action can be used to apply the curse to 2 targets on the same round or the hexblade can apply their curse to 2 separate targets on 2 separate rounds using 2 separate bonus actions. Im leaning towards the updated master of hexes because I think jinx again would be to punishing/abuseable.
Making it the ultimate Warlock Gish is exactly what they don’t want from it. The entire point of all the tune-ups to Pact of the Blade is so any subclass can use it effectively. Giving one subclass a ton of extra advantages mostly just brings us right back to where we were with 2014.
1) Ultimate warlock-gish is right there in the name "hexblade." If the "new hexblade" isn't going to focus on hexes and weapons then they need to change the name/release a *different* subclass. In 2014 if you wanted to dual wield, hexblade pact of the blade was the way to go (because hexweapon and pact weapon), I don't see taking that away as an option, doubling down on it is.
2) allowing *any* subclass to be a *good* gish is not negated by designing one subclass to be a *BETTER* gish. It's a sliding scale of focus/specialization.
3) any given 2024 warlock subclass with pact of the blade and follow on invocations is a *worse* gish than the 2014 hexblade with pact of the blade etc. If they go with the UA hexblade warlock becomes a worse/more mediocre (less potential as a) gish than under 2014, it'd be taking away gishyness from the class, meaning it'd be better to just leave hexblade alone than go with the UA update.
4) you can mostly do what I was proposed already through multiclassing, starting with a 1 level fighter dip gets you con proficiency, 3 weapon masteries, a fighting style, medium/heavy armor proficiency, etc. Then going pact of blade hexblade until at least warlock 12, is close to identical as what I recommended. The difference is leaning more heavily into the hex theme because every warlock can now gets the cha bonus and joining the blade singer and valor bard with the ability to substitute 1 cantrip for one attack made as part of an attack action. So it's not much of a power creep/just brings hexblade in line with other 2024 (sub)classes, because for the most part 2024 (sub)classes get at least a small bump in power level relatively to 2014 varieties. The UA hexblade 2.0 is quite a substantial nerf.
1) Ultimate warlock-gish is right there in the name "hexblade." If the "new hexblade" isn't going to focus on hexes and weapons then they need to change the name/release a *different* subclass. In 2014 if you wanted to dual wield, hexblade pact of the blade was the way to go (because hexweapon and pact weapon), I don't see taking that away as an option, doubling down on it is.
2) allowing *any* subclass to be a *good* gish is not negated by designing one subclass to be a *BETTER* gish. It's a sliding scale of focus/specialization.
3) any given 2024 warlock subclass with pact of the blade and follow on invocations is a *worse* gish than the 2014 hexblade with pact of the blade etc. If they go with the UA hexblade warlock becomes a worse/more mediocre (less potential as a) gish than under 2014, it'd be taking away gishyness from the class, meaning it'd be better to just leave hexblade alone than go with the UA update.
4) you can mostly do what I was proposed already through multiclassing, starting with a 1 level fighter dip gets you con proficiency, 3 weapon masteries, a fighting style, medium/heavy armor proficiency, etc. Then going pact of blade hexblade until at least warlock 12, is close to identical as what I recommended. The difference is leaning more heavily into the hex theme because every warlock can now gets the cha bonus and joining the blade singer and valor bard with the ability to substitute 1 cantrip for one attack made as part of an attack action. So it's not much of a power creep/just brings hexblade in line with other 2024 (sub)classes, because for the most part 2024 (sub)classes get at least a small bump in power level relatively to 2014 varieties. The UA hexblade 2.0 is quite a substantial nerf.
If the UA hexblade is a nerf, it probably means they think hexblade with the 2024 warlock chassis needed a nerf.
keep in mind the baseline class has devouring blade and an improved lifedrinker,'
and keep in mind that hexblade was seen as an OP dip for many classes, and some claimed the best martial class in the game.
So its highly possible that it was going to get nerfed in some aspects regardless.
and also, hexblade, though its not specifically limited to melee weapon use, is probably the subclass which is most synergistic with melee weapon use, due to its features essentially being weighted towards attacks and using hex.
no other subclasses has as much reason and opportunity to be making attacks.
could they have gone deeper on melee, sure, could they have built a different subclass sure.
is it weak by 2024 class standards when compared to other martials? not at all.
OK. So they tried again with the Arcane Subclasses released today in UA. And...it's better. Mostly. But seriously, Wotc - as a warlock, why would you think I would ever completely forgo all armor and a shield for a +2 bonus to AC ONLY on attacks coming from the target of my hexblade's curse?
It might be ok with it being +2 bonus to AC if you're not wearing armor or using a shield while hexblade's curse is active. But as it is in the UA? No.
So they dropped a new hexblade, i have to ponder it more, but i kinda dont like that its just one creature per cast. You can apply it via other spells that curse the target, but warlock only has 2 spells per SR for most of its career.
they get some new effects with it, but when i think of it being 3-5 creatures per day versus 3-5 possible hours per day, that seems like a lot of time where i either have spend spell slots or not have any benefits from your subclass.
on the plus side, it wont directly block any concentration uses,
they also improved your armorless/shieldless AC, which i doubt will satisfy the medium armor/shield wanting guys, but there it is, basically as good as monk AC with a lot less dependency on two different stats.
OK. So they tried again with the Arcane Subclasses released today in UA. And...it's better. Mostly. But seriously, Wotc - as a warlock, why would you think I would ever completely forgo all armor and a shield or a +2 bonus to AC ONLY on attacks coming from the target of my hexblade's curse?
It might be ok with it being +2 bonus to AC if you're not wearing armor or using a shield while hexblade's curse is active. But as it is in the UA? No.
Seems like they wanted to focus the class more on melee than last UA, and thus they dont want as much benefit to being at far range as a hexblade.
i think being close to the target for the new hexblade is an issue, not inherently, but because this hexblade is per monster, not as long as you have hex spell targeted.
but the old hexblade was up even less often, so maybe its fine
So they dropped a new hexblade, i have to ponder it more, but i kinda dont like that its just one creature per cast. You can apply it via other spells that curse the target, but warlock only has 2 spells per SR for most of its career.
they get some new effects with it, but when i think of it being 3-5 creatures per day versus 3-5 possible hours per day, that seems like a lot of time where i either have spend spell slots or not have any benefits from your subclass.
on the plus side, it wont directly block any concentration uses,
they also improved your armorless/shieldless AC, which i doubt will satisfy the medium armor/shield wanting guys, but there it is, basically as good as monk AC with a lot less dependency on two different stats.
how do yall feel?
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
Read that ability again. It has nothing to do with attacks from your cursed target.
You get a +2 to AC when within 10ft of your cursed target.
So they dropped a new hexblade, i have to ponder it more, but i kinda dont like that its just one creature per cast. You can apply it via other spells that curse the target, but warlock only has 2 spells per SR for most of its career.
they get some new effects with it, but when i think of it being 3-5 creatures per day versus 3-5 possible hours per day, that seems like a lot of time where i either have spend spell slots or not have any benefits from your subclass.
on the plus side, it wont directly block any concentration uses,
they also improved your armorless/shieldless AC, which i doubt will satisfy the medium armor/shield wanting guys, but there it is, basically as good as monk AC with a lot less dependency on two different stats.
how do yall feel?
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
While I agree it's a little weak, all they need to do is make it a static increase so long as a curse spell is active. It should not be as good as a Monk's or Barbarian's unarmored defense though. Not for a primary spellcaster.
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My only complaint: STOP PUTTING THE SPELL MAGIC WEAPON IN DOMAIN SPELLS!! ITS USELESS FOR THIS CLASS!! And any class that depends on a weapon!!
Yes it's good if you don't have a magical weapon, but for hexblade you can take PotB and the weapon becomes magical and then you cannot use the spell magic weapon at all. Give it like. Shadowblade or something, godsdamnit.
Okay but that wasn't stated. None the less BB's trigger is unlikely to happen as melee combatants seldom move around when they get into the fray due to OAs and because they usually stick to hitting the first available target. Pair it with a Martial with Push W.Mastery and you got a good shot though.
(I played a Bladesinger from lvl 10-15 and BB triggered three or four times so far. Once because the target had a specific target in the back, once due to War Caster, the others because I was under Greater Invisibility and the enemy was non-intelligent and didn't perceive me.)
I must be missing some context because I don't see Elemental Monk being referenced in the post you replied to or their previous post.
Hex being its own resource doesn't really matter. It's a limited resource, so if you're going to account for it, you really should account for all limited resources (that can easily be accounted for). Also didn't you state that Monks never use BA for disengage/general defense because it hinders their damage too much? Then why wouldn't you assume the best possible strategy for the Monk and use its KI for offense?
It is a bit iffy comparing damage from spells or features that uses Saves and applying their average damage contributions based on assumptions on defense but not do it for Attack Rolls (I know I didn't do it before either). It seems you did account for a 65% hit rate in this comparison and saves at about 50% fail rate (user success) assuming 13 DC against +2 WIS save mod. TBH that's likely a bit on the high side for save mod. at lvl 3. Maybe 55% fail rate is closer - alas to the Warlock's advantage at this point because the difference in amount between spell slots and KI points is low.
If not accounting for hit rate, KI points equate to an attack that's 1d6 + 3 or 6.5 a piece for 19.5 Dmg per SR/Metabolism. 12.7 Dmg with 65% assumed hit rate, making Deflect Attacks preferred at 15 Dmg per SR/Metabolism.
I never said otherwise. Deflect Attack provides a major boost to Monk's effective health and is a major reason they still exist as frontliners at this level.
Where do you get the Warlock's 1.5 attacks per round? TWF? Accounting for Hex casts/transfers every 2nd round?
Where do you get the 16 rounds from? Assuming combat encounters lasts 3-4 rounds - lets say 4 rounds - you really expect 4 combat encounters per day? The 2014 DMG advises that an adventuring party can handle 6-8 medium to hard encounters - but that includes social, exploration and combat encounters. I think 2 is more the norm but 3 definitely being possible.
Assuming 100% up-time on Hex is... generous. You have 3 casts per Long Rest and whenever you do get hit, you minimum have to clear a DC 10 Concentration Save, with the +2 CON mod. you have 35% chance to break concentration. The 1 hour duration have a chance to carry over between fights, but is only really "reliable" if you're raiding a dungeon with combat encounters packed almost back-to-back and no need for Short Rests. Generous assumptions in my eyes.
More realistically I would assume 12 rounds of combat with 75% Hex uptime.
The TWF-lock using BA every 2nd round on Hex cast/transfer would do: 1.5 attack per round * 12 rounds: [ 16d6 + 12 * 3 + 12d6 ] * 65% hit rate = 87.1 damage per day
Hellish Rebukes can add: 5 * 3d10 * 75% = 61.9 damage (however I do just now see that it requires V and S components and thus is ineligible for a TWF, unless you're juggling your draw/stow like a maniac given your DM allows that)
Using a Longsword instead: 1 attack per round * 12 rounds: 12 * [1d10 + 3 + 1d6 * 75%] * 65% hit rate = 86.8 damage per day
The Monk can dish out: 2 attacks per round * 12 rounds: 24 * [1d6 + 3 + 0.4 Tavern Brawler ] * 65% hit rate = 107.6 damage per day
KI points can add: 9 * [2d6 + 3] * 50% = 45 damage per day
Using Flurry instead: 9 * [1d6 + 3 + 0.4] * 65% hit rate = 40.4 damage per day (and is not dependent on triggering Deflect Attack's full damage absorption)
The damage is surprisingly equivalent using Hellish Rebuke. The Warlock have potential to reach higher given carry-over Hex duration or higher uptime than my assumption. However the Warlock is now using their Pact slots for offense, whilst the Monk fully utilize Deflect Attack to pad their effective health by up to 11.5 per activation. Fiendish Vigor provides the Warlock with 12 Temp HP before every fight. Using it during a fight lowers their damage by a significant amount.
Many CR 3 monsters deal 10+ damage, so Armor of Agathys is likely to end after one hit. Regardless the 1 hour duration is not reliable to carry over from combat encounter to combat encounter.
I did just look it up and learned that they changed it from an Action to a Bonus Action to cast. That's pretty neat.
Fiendish Vigor's 12 Temp HP fares slightly better at this level, but at the cost of your Action. Definitely worth against many smaller enemies but against CR-equivalent enemies, I wouldn't use FV in combat to keep AoA up.
Fair.
Once we hit lvl 4 the Monk likely picks up the Grappler feat that allows them to both Grapple and deal Damage in the same attack. Granting ADV on their attacks against the Grappled target to increase their hit rate to 87.8% boosting their damage to 24 * [1d6 + 4 + 0.4] * 87.8% hit rate = 166.5 damage + KI's 12 * [2d6 + 4] * 50% = 66 damage
Two-hander Fighter picks up GWM to add + Prof. Bonus to every attack's damage henceforth and on occasion get a BA attack.
The Sword-and-board has less obvious feat choices but could range from PAM to Heavy Armor Master for the passive Prof. Bonus damage reduction to Shield Master for the discount Evasion and free Shove action.
I don't see big improvements for the Warlock from a feat here, other than PAM-spear for non-TWF. War Caster and Resilient are nice options to bolster your Hex uptime.
I consider range to be outside immediate walk+hit distance. When considering the Elemental Monk "safe" in range, I would use my melee allies as a buffer and/or the push-mechanics (either from the subclass or the guaranteed 5 ft. push from Tavern Brawler on-hit) so the enemy don't have a straight 30 ft. line to me. But no Monks don't really have what I consider a good ranged option.
Sure, that could be fun. I don't have the time right now, but will revisit this.
I put BB in paranthesis, its nit part of my main damage calculation, and i took it as an option. not something they are going to use all the time. this hexblade was built to be a versatile skirmisher who can attack at multiple ranges, and adapt as it see fit and action economy allows. Blade pact can be whatever weapon it needs as a BA. I cant say ahead of time what its going to do, im just outlining its options. As for why booming blade, booming blade can make an enemy less likely to move, or take damage if it does, thats useful in either case. the warlock might at times be using booming blade via halberd and thus be able to create distance and greater advantage to it not moving. The same exact warlock can also choose to get down and dirty with dual wielding Its also not a solo situation, so there will be tactics that involve or change with other players.
As for why elemental monk, because its a simple choice for comparison, shadow monk depends alot on your tactical skills, and your groups, and the situation, mercy monk consumes ki or gives up attacks, and thus creates a lot of issues about various possible ways they might act. But my monk choice was less important, the context is people saying that hexblade is an inferior skirmisher to monk, and i wanted to show that at even level 3, the hexblade can be an excellent skirmisher. Better than the monk at the same build type. For that purpose i cant assume the monk wont at times spend ki towards skirmishing. The elemental monk spends 1 ki in order to get elemental arms for example, and this person im talking to concieves of the monk simetimes using disengage and ranged attacks, though i personally think its a bad idea. So i cant really get too far into what they will use the ki for, i just put into defensive.
hex being its own resource matters immensely when comparing it to ki/monk at this level. because ki is either trying to compete with hex, or trying to compete with pact slots, it cannot compete with both. Also hex is basically almost always there if wanted.
ki matches up poorly in dpr to hex, and poorly in dpr to pact slots. I chose to compare ki+deflect attacks to pact slots. 3 ki is basically 3 dodges or 3 patient defense/dashes which is inferior to pact slots alone, as expeditious retreat alone basically = multiple patient defenses 3 dodges is similar in value to one mirror images, its actually weaker but it doesnt use an action.
4 encounters per day isnt guaranteed, but nothing is, at some level you have to choose a metric and evaluate based on it. 3 combat encounters a day is seen as being fairly generous most analysis i ve seen use the 4 combat, 4 round metric. If i was going for 3 combats, they would probably be harder and longer which essentially even out. three 5 round combats is 15 rounds.
I dont consider that a dm is going to refuse players to equip or unequip items as instructed by the rules. DMs homebrew , but incant really account for homebrew, especially something like equiping objects. That said, i wasnt really saying i would take hellish rebuke, i was merely trying to give the best and most direct value equivalent of monk, the most efficient ki use for damage at level 3 is deflect attacks, which is a reaction that consumes 1 ki, so i chose a pact spell that also consumes a resource to do damage as reaction so its very 1 to 1. This is not me saying, lets take this spell or a monk should always use deflect attacks ki, but rather, comparing the offensive value of ki versus a pact slot at level 3. I imagine a dual wielder would have extra difficulties and have to go out their way to free a hand if they chose to use their pact slots on hellish rebuke, but thats up to them.
remember my prefered comparison is ki+standard defense to pact+standard defense, since people are talking about survivability. If i was gonna use my pact slot for offense, id probably rather wrathful smite since it also has defensive application, and the 3d6 always lands, (since you choose to use it after hits) and can be thrown on crits.
as far as hex uptime, hard to say, but i wasnt really making a determination it would have 100% uptime, i was saying the potential is 80ish dpr and the potential of ki was about 40ish dpr. even if its uptime is lower, it at very least equals ki used for offense, or surpasses its value. that would leave pact slots as just competing with deflect attacks with no ki, which i think favors pact slots.
as far as level 4, the hexblade warlock could also go for a weapon based feature if they desire to, but even if they go for warcaster, that would increase hex/concentration uptime and add cantrip opportunity attacks, of which booming blade is great at. So its really up to them, if they choose warcaster, they value it more than gwm/dualwielder/pam, etc. which means the martials arent really gaining much. Its slightly less effecient if the hexblade is going int main, but they are ahead more than 5% accuracy and 1 dmg per hit at level 4.
A few thoughts on the current arguments ongoing:
1). I personally would have been happy with an updated Hexblade - basic 2024 updates which would likely include at least a couple small buffs. I think a version could be done that would not make them the “best” bladelock but could compete with the PHB subclasses.
2) A 2024 bladelock is fine in T1 and T2 for dmg potential, but is behind other martial, with debatably worse defense (you can really only pour warlock resources into 1 or the other, AoA being a possible exception). Any argument saying they are better, especially without an armor dip, than other martials seems to be cherry-picking. I’ll reference Treantmonk’s class dmg comparisons (he made an armor dip bladelock his single target baseline for 2024 based on his math). You may not agree but he makes a great case that the other classes are better in T1/2. The 3rd attack is the difference maker and the big boost (as it is for the fighter)
3). This subclass as it exists is well underpowered. You do not get enough to make the hex use worthwhile; the opportunity cost of concentration is too high. I think it could be made to work, but I need to see more oomph. Currently an armor dip gets me more than this subclass when it matters in game, and I can take a different subclass with better or more flexible features instead.
hexblade has more built in defence than regular bladelock mostly due to the level 10 ability, but you are underestimating regular bladelocks defense. Hexblade can also use hex for offense, and pact slots for. defense. A big mistake people are making here is thinking because you cant concentrate on two spells there is no value. Fact is warlock gets 2 to 3 pact spells per SR, getting 5 free enhanced hex slots means you can be offensive and use pact slots on defense, or you can be more offensive.
treant monk never claimed he made exhaustive lists, or best builds, he just made some builds he would play or wanted to test out. He also was not going for overall anything, but was building for single target damage. Its also a fallacy to say its behind other martials in DPR. he literally chose warlock GWM as the baseline, meaning its in the middle. ranger, monk (without assuming 100% advantage) and rougue are behind it in damage.
He wasnt calculating based on defense or real play. I'd say hexblades overall defense is A teir. in terms of martials.
i just did this recently, and i'll add hexblade to the teir list
going by damage:surviability:support: control
hexblade A:A:B:S
monk B+:S:C:A
fighter A:A:C:A
Paladin S:S:S:S
barbarian S:A:B:C
Ranger B+:B:S:A
Rogue B:B:A:B
id say monk and paladin are most survivable, but not really due to superior AC, but rather other features. I never claimed hexblade is the best martialish class, but rather that its actually where it needs to be. Giving it medium shield would shift it to being fairly top teir martial. essentially increasing its offense, (because less need for defensive spells,) and defense.
and to be clear im not saying they should or have to do this hexblade, i am saying it is not a mechanically weak martial class. I think they could go other directions from a design standpoint.
perhaps it is not the best, i dont really deep dive into full caster power levels, but its powerlevel is on par with other martials, and i think as good as a pseudo martial should be at being a martial. A psuedo martial should never be the best martial, because it can still fall back on its non martial abilities. Its actually positioned fairly well, especially considering its greatest strengths are in t1 and 2 where most games occur. (actually beats most martials in these teirs)
(I snipped out some bits)
Treantmonk obviously wasn’t exhaustive, but he was trying to determine the best single target DPR for each class bs one another (both with and without subclass). The bladelock became baseline - which for him was ok damage (or minimum acceptable for the role). In T1 and T2 it was definitely not better than ranger (who was actually #1 in T1 with TWF and craters in T3). Monk and rogue were middle of the road. Bladelocks take off when they get 3rd attack and again with foresight.
Also, he may not have made perfect or builds to your taste, but he was full focusing all abilities (including spells) into damage when possible. TM also notes that he would absolutely take an armor dip to make it viable as a melee PC. You can disagree, but it’s super efficient (moreso than any other way to improve defense within the base class).
Hex is an ok spell for T1, less so as you progress - similar to Hunters Mark. This subclass doesn’t give enough to trade off other concentration spells overall.
Trust me, I’m well aware that a bladelock is already a good martial option; that’s part of the warlock base when you take the right invocations. I don’t agree their defense is “good” - yes you can use your limited resources to supplement. I would argue that is still just part of the base bladelock. Hexblade makes it “easier” with free castings of a minor damage spell with some mostly minor perks, but it feels more of a trap than good feature in this iteration.
Old Hexblade wasn’t OP because it got medium armor and shield prof; it was OP because it got them at lvl 1 with CHA for attacks. Beyond that, I don’t think the subclass was great over a career (maybe good). The subclass now won’t be front-loaded, so getting at least medium armor at level 3 still won’t make them OP, especially compared to other martials.
If this was the future of the Hexblade, my High Elf Charlatan Hexblade would become a High Elf Charlatan Celestial Warlock. With the ability to choose Fire Bolt as their Wizard cantrip, they can use Radiant Soul on it. It would also work with True Strike. They can heal themselves with a bonus action until their pool of Healing Light dice is depleted.
I would start with 8/17/13/10/10/16 stats, taking Polearm Master at level 4 to bump dexterity to 18, using a spear, +2 to charisma at 8, and Resilient: Con at level 12.
Since starting with 150 gold, and not needing to spend gold on weapons, it's easy to afford studded leather as the starting option. It's not worth spending an invocation on Armor of Shadows.
Armor of Agathys and False Life are not specific to Hexblade, so if they confer bonus survival to Hexblade, they confer it to any Warlock.
The four "must take" invocations for a Blade Pact Warlock in my opinion are Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Devouring Blade. Eldritch Smite should probably be left until you have three Pact Slots, level 15 say. Lessons of the First Ones: Magic Initiate [Wizard] can give you a free casting of Shield each long rest, while still being able to cast it with Pact Slots if you must, along with two Wizard cantrips.
I don't suppose it's unreasonable to have obtained some +1, or even +2 studded leather at level 12.
Purely on offense, the level 12 PotB Warlock, just using Hex, neglecting more powerful options like Spirit Shroud, is rolling 0.65 (3(d8+4) + (d4+4) + 4(d6) + (d6)) damage, for 30 damge per round, regaining an average of 6.5HP if you expend a hit die. Would potentially healing 78 damage (12 dice) over the course of the fight justify using an invocation on Lifedrinker.
Actually, belay that statement about Lifedrinker being a must-take invocation. I was thinking that it still worked like the Paladin's Radiant Strikes, working on every hit the Warlock inflicted. It's only once per turn, and I'm not sure an extra 3.5 damage a turn is worth sacrificing something as valuable as an invocation. Replacing Hex with Spirit Shroud, assuming Tasha's is an accepted sourcebook, would add 0.65(4(2d8)) damage per round, or 23 damage. That's a much better investment.
A GWM Fighter (str 20) with PAM and a d10 weapon is doing 0.65(3(d10+5)+(d4+5)+4) is doing 28 average, neglecting other damage sources like maneuvers.
A high AC gives you a reducation in damage taken, but it also reduces the number of concentration checks you have to make. You can take Resilient: Con and the Eldritch Mind invocation to help maintain concentration though.
At level 12 Warlocks have 8 invocations. If four are taken for Pact of the Blade, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Devouring Blade, what should the other four invocations be?
Eldritch Mind gives us advantage on Concentration checks. That's often useful in a fight, especially if you only have 16AC and 87HP.
Lessons of the First Ones: Magic Initiate (Wizard) for the Shield spell.
One With Shadows: On demand Invisibility, so long as you're able to find a patch of shadows to cast the spell in.
Mask of Many Faces: On demand Disguise Self. My favorite invocation. Just make yourself look like someone wearing heavy armor, and maybe people won't try to hit you.
When I first heard that there was a hexblade coming out, I was really excited. I was thinking of all the things they could do, like make it so you can gain weapon mastery with your pact weapon, and maybe make it so that if you take an attack action as a hexblade with thirsting blade make it so one the first attack can be a cantrip. Maybe have a way to add charisma to armor instead of the medium armor proficiency.
But we got none of that. The hexblade we received was just a major disappointment.
hexblade is no longer the melee warlock, all warlocks can melee if they want, hexblade is an attack based warlock who gets greater utility and use from the hex spell. If you arent interested in that, its not going to be that appealing.
but most of that was already in place with the 2024 warlock changes.
There’s a feat for Weapon Masteries, which is a better option because any gish can take it and it also keeps the Masteries as a mostly martial feature as they’re intended to be.
Hexblade's curse using concentration? No thank you. The changes to armor of hexes? Hard pass. And what part of the new hexblade has anything to do with BLADES?
So i proposed to instead make the 2024 hexblade the ultimate warlock-gish and up the ante on his/her ability to curse.
First the 2014 master of hexes is now just part of the base hexblade's curse.
Second the hexblade still gets a hexweapon that (s)he can use as an arcane focus and can use his/her cha bonus for attack and damage with, but if they have the pact of the blade invocation then the hexweapon also counts as a pact weapon.
Third, at warlock 3, the hexblade gets 2 weapon masteries and a fighting style, so if a bladelock wants to dual wield then hexblade is the way to do it but this also makes him/her a better gish of any stripe.
Fourth, replace accursed spectre with the ability to replace one attack, that would otherwise have been made with the hexweapon as part of an attack action with a cantrip that normall costs an attack action to cast. So it cqn be used in place of one dual 2i3lding attack (e.g. if one of the weapon materies was nick), it applies to thorsting hlade, or if 6ouv3 got 5 levels of fighter it'd work with that too.
Fifth, replace armor of hexes with "jinx" when the target of your hexblade's curse makes a d20 check, you can use you4 reaction to jinx them causing them to roll another d20 and take the worse result. You can us3 the jinx reaction proficiency bonus times per short or long rest.
Sixth, here are 2 options for replacing th3 old armor of hexes. Option 1: "jinx again" after you use the jinx reaction, the target of your hexblade's curse also has disadvantage on the next d20 check they make. Option 2: a new "Master of hexes': you can simultaneously affect 2 targets with your hexblade's curse. A single bonus action can be used to apply the curse to 2 targets on the same round or the hexblade can apply their curse to 2 separate targets on 2 separate rounds using 2 separate bonus actions. Im leaning towards the updated master of hexes because I think jinx again would be to punishing/abuseable.
Making it the ultimate Warlock Gish is exactly what they don’t want from it. The entire point of all the tune-ups to Pact of the Blade is so any subclass can use it effectively. Giving one subclass a ton of extra advantages mostly just brings us right back to where we were with 2014.
1) Ultimate warlock-gish is right there in the name "hexblade." If the "new hexblade" isn't going to focus on hexes and weapons then they need to change the name/release a *different* subclass. In 2014 if you wanted to dual wield, hexblade pact of the blade was the way to go (because hexweapon and pact weapon), I don't see taking that away as an option, doubling down on it is.
2) allowing *any* subclass to be a *good* gish is not negated by designing one subclass to be a *BETTER* gish. It's a sliding scale of focus/specialization.
3) any given 2024 warlock subclass with pact of the blade and follow on invocations is a *worse* gish than the 2014 hexblade with pact of the blade etc. If they go with the UA hexblade warlock becomes a worse/more mediocre (less potential as a) gish than under 2014, it'd be taking away gishyness from the class, meaning it'd be better to just leave hexblade alone than go with the UA update.
4) you can mostly do what I was proposed already through multiclassing, starting with a 1 level fighter dip gets you con proficiency, 3 weapon masteries, a fighting style, medium/heavy armor proficiency, etc. Then going pact of blade hexblade until at least warlock 12, is close to identical as what I recommended. The difference is leaning more heavily into the hex theme because every warlock can now gets the cha bonus and joining the blade singer and valor bard with the ability to substitute 1 cantrip for one attack made as part of an attack action. So it's not much of a power creep/just brings hexblade in line with other 2024 (sub)classes, because for the most part 2024 (sub)classes get at least a small bump in power level relatively to 2014 varieties. The UA hexblade 2.0 is quite a substantial nerf.
If the UA hexblade is a nerf, it probably means they think hexblade with the 2024 warlock chassis needed a nerf.
keep in mind the baseline class has devouring blade and an improved lifedrinker,'
and keep in mind that hexblade was seen as an OP dip for many classes, and some claimed the best martial class in the game.
So its highly possible that it was going to get nerfed in some aspects regardless.
and also, hexblade, though its not specifically limited to melee weapon use, is probably the subclass which is most synergistic with melee weapon use, due to its features essentially being weighted towards attacks and using hex.
no other subclasses has as much reason and opportunity to be making attacks.
could they have gone deeper on melee, sure, could they have built a different subclass sure.
is it weak by 2024 class standards when compared to other martials? not at all.
OK. So they tried again with the Arcane Subclasses released today in UA. And...it's better. Mostly. But seriously, Wotc - as a warlock, why would you think I would ever completely forgo all armor and a shield for a +2 bonus to AC ONLY on attacks coming from the target of my hexblade's curse?
It might be ok with it being +2 bonus to AC if you're not wearing armor or using a shield while hexblade's curse is active. But as it is in the UA? No.
So they dropped a new hexblade, i have to ponder it more, but i kinda dont like that its just one creature per cast. You can apply it via other spells that curse the target, but warlock only has 2 spells per SR for most of its career.
they get some new effects with it, but when i think of it being 3-5 creatures per day versus 3-5 possible hours per day, that seems like a lot of time where i either have spend spell slots or not have any benefits from your subclass.
on the plus side, it wont directly block any concentration uses,
they also improved your armorless/shieldless AC, which i doubt will satisfy the medium armor/shield wanting guys, but there it is, basically as good as monk AC with a lot less dependency on two different stats.
how do yall feel?
Seems like they wanted to focus the class more on melee than last UA, and thus they dont want as much benefit to being at far range as a hexblade.
i think being close to the target for the new hexblade is an issue, not inherently, but because this hexblade is per monster, not as long as you have hex spell targeted.
but the old hexblade was up even less often, so maybe its fine
Where did they improve armorless ac? Did I miss something other than the +2 you get when armorless, against attacks from just the target of your Hexblade curse? Cuz that's nowhere near s good as the constant bid to ac monk's gets from two different stats.
Read that ability again. It has nothing to do with attacks from your cursed target.
You get a +2 to AC when within 10ft of your cursed target.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
While I agree it's a little weak, all they need to do is make it a static increase so long as a curse spell is active. It should not be as good as a Monk's or Barbarian's unarmored defense though. Not for a primary spellcaster.