I think it is important to note that they weren't going to make mechanically sweeping changes to the core class until after a survey has been received, so moving the Spell-Storing Item, Arcane Armament, or additional Attunements wasn't expected in the "Artificer Returns" UA. That would probably happen in the Artificer 3.0 or when it is published.
Like others, I'd rather have seen the Battle Smith get a set of arcano-mechanical armor instead of a construct pet. To me it feels more like a pet that the ranger's beast master should have gotten. Not that it really matters, the big things about the Battle Smith are the access to martial weapons and the ability to use INT on attack and damage rolls with weapons.
I do think, that like the Hexblade warlock, the ability to use INT on attack & damage should either be limited to 1 weapon, changeable after a long rest or (my preference) to a weapon created by one of our Infusions.
I'd rather not have seen the Battle Smith given Smite spells since they require Bonus Actions I'd probably rather use to control my Iron Defender.
I'm not too worried about the Battle Master though. At least now we have reasonable firm rules that can be used in the creation of other Archetypes (Artificer or other classes)
My current Artificers (2 campaigns) are Artillerists. So far, out of 10-12 summon's of my Turret, I have used Defender at least 75% of the time. At our levels (4 & 5) the Temporary hp buff every round has saved the party several times. I look forward to trying the Battle Smith, maybe seeing if the DM will let me try the Iron Defender reconfigured as battle armor, but in my testing of the Alchemist Homunculous, it has so far left me unimpressed; admittedly that Artificer only made it to 2nd level . . .
Personally, I like the idea of the Archivist, but I think that an Invulnerable familiar that you can cast spells through (30 to 300 feet?) may be a bit more than too powerful. The rules do not say that you need line-of-sight to the manifestation point, only that it can't pass through objects. By my interpretation, this means you can cause it to manifest on the other side of a door, you can see through it eyes, and you can observe the room with impunity.
Due to the lack of cantrips requiring a hit roll, I find the Enhanced Wand a little lackluster unless you are multi-classing with wizard, then it is sweet. Personally, I wonder why the Artificer wasn't granted access to the Green Flame Blade & Booming Blade cantrip. These seem to fit the artificer perfectly as they enhance the artificer's melee weapon perfectly ???
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I agree about the extra attunement, that was a feature they should have kept from the first iteration and I hope they reconsider. I believe I've mentioned before that in my opinion, Spell Storing Item is broken as it presently is and should have fewer uses per item, and at higher levels allow more items that can each have a different spell stored (for instance, it would start at 1 item with 3 uses with the ability to store 1st level spells, then gradually increase to 2 items that can store 2nd level spells, then 3 items that can store 3rd level spells, though the number of charges for higher level spells would need to be lowered in order to stay balanced probably.)
I can see what you mean about the iron defender; personally, I'm fine with it as is, but wouldn't mind seeing a couple changes or two to it (and as a DM I'd totally allow changing it to a bipedal form with any appropriate changes to damage type). As far as having an advanced armor, I feel like that could be the makings of a subclass all on its own!
Personally, I think that the requirement for Attunement should be waived for any item that requires Attunement if that item created by the Artificer and is being used by the Artificer. Just add this ability at 10th level since the current 10th level ability is severely lackluster.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
This version of the Artificer makes me so incredibly happy. When I first heard about this class, I was sure it was something that I would not want to play. This later version not only serves as the best multiclassing dip for a wizard now, hands-down, it's also a very strong class all on its own. I love it, and I'll probably play it!
Since it's not been covered so far, here's what a first level dip into Artificer will get a multiclassing wizard:
- Medium Armor and Shields - Con save proficiency - Perception Skill and Thieves Tools - Guidance cantrip - Some choice, Intelligence-based 1st level spells, including sanctuary and faerie fire (the latter makes me so happy) - With the change to Multiclassing rules, no slowdown in spell slot progression!
The only "meh" part about it is that you need a hand free for tools if you're going to use an artificer spell, but that's a fairly minor downside.
Since it's not been covered so far, here's what a first level dip into Artificer will get a multiclassing wizard:
- Medium Armor and Shields - Con save proficiency - Perception Skill and Thieves Tools - Guidance cantrip - Some choice, Intelligence-based 1st level spells, including sanctuary and faerie fire (the latter makes me so happy) - With the change to Multiclassing rules, no slowdown in spell slot progression!
I assume by first level dip you are talking about starting out as an Artificer as your initial class and then multiclassing into Wizard. Otherwise dipping into Artificer doesn't provide you with CON Save or Perception Skill proficiency. Nor does it provide you with the Thieves Tools (only proficiency with the tools).
Also, as a DM, I would be semi-annoyed with the Min-Maxing involved with having the initial class be the dipping class, but that is purely my preference as a Player / Dungeon Master.
I still really want an Alchemist revamp that looks more like the 2017 version-- homunculi are interesting and all but I don't feel like they should be the main thing for the Alchemist. Although real life alchemists did have an interest in homunculi, alchemists first and foremost attempted to purify, mature, and perfect materials and their craft was essentially magical chemistry.
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i like linguistics and, well, d&d, obviously. this bio hadn't been updated for 3 years so i figured i'd do that.
This version of the Artificer makes me so incredibly happy. When I first heard about this class, I was sure it was something that I would not want to play. This later version not only serves as the best multiclassing dip for a wizard now, hands-down, it's also a very strong class all on its own. I love it, and I'll probably play it!
Since it's not been covered so far, here's what a first level dip into Artificer will get a multiclassing wizard:
- Medium Armor and Shields - Con save proficiency - Perception Skill and Thieves Tools - Guidance cantrip - Some choice, Intelligence-based 1st level spells, including sanctuary and faerie fire (the latter makes me so happy) - With the change to Multiclassing rules, no slowdown in spell slot progression!
The only "meh" part about it is that you need a hand free for tools if you're going to use an artificer spell, but that's a fairly minor downside.
On both my current Artificers, I went to 3rd level as Artificer then went for a 2 level wizard dip to go War Magic. I may go 1 additional level of wizard eventually, but I am not sure.
One of my Artificers is a Crossbow Expert (human)and I have been very happy with him so far. The other is a Valenar High Elf specializing with the double-bladed scimitar. Currently, both are Artillerists. I will, with the DM's permission, switch my elf artificer over to Battle Smith. My Crossbow Expert tends to use a Defender Turret for temp hp and half-cover.
Remember, you can use an Infused item as a focus instead of your tools. My Crossbow Expert uses his Enhanced Weapon (Hand Crossbow) as his focus. I will be switching to the new Repeating Shot Infusion so I hand use a shield. Eventually I have to get War Caster, but until then I may have to put away my weapon at times to cast a spell (Material Component requirements).
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Rereading the Stun on Archevists Mind Overload, there is some weird language. If you spend a slot the target automatically makes a Saving throw independent of the to hit saving throw. I still think this is something to focus on as it turns every even first level slot into a Stun.
Also note this is not a spell or even a cantrip, even if you are spending a spellslot, therefore plays nice with BA spells. (But sadly can’t be Metamagiced by Sorcerers)
Rereading the Stun on Archevists Mind Overload, there is some weird language. If you spend a slot the target automatically makes a Saving throw independent of the to hit saving throw. I still think this is something to focus on as it turns every even first level slot into a Stun.
Also note this is not a spell or even a cantrip, even if you are spending a spellslot, therefore plays nice with BA spells. (But sadly can’t be Metamagiced by Sorcerers)
Yea, that is a little weird to have two saves. I'd probably have it worded as follows:
Mind Overload. When you expend a spell slot to increase the damage of Information Overload and they fail the Intelligence saving throw, the target is also stunned until the end of your next turn.
Also, Information Overload, similar to a Paladin's Divine smite, works well with a Warlock's Pact Slots the refresh on a short rest.
A question I have about the Artillerist's Wand Prototype feature: when you imbue a wand, do you get to cast that spell at will until your next rest, or only once? If only once, that seems like a lackluster feature. If at will, they could have said so, although I fear that might be a little overpowered, giving you an extra cantrip that you can switch out. Granted, the whole class gets that at level 10.
A question I have about the Artillerist's Wand Prototype feature: when you imbue a wand, do you get to cast that spell at will until your next rest, or only once? If only once, that seems like a lackluster feature. If at will, they could have said so, although I fear that might be a little overpowered, giving you an extra cantrip that you can switch out. Granted, the whole class gets that at level 10.
The Wand Prototype feature does not specify a limit to the number of times it can produce the cantrip, as such there is no limit and can be done at-will.
I'd imagine that any cantrips you'd cast with Wand Prototype would be at-will like usual. If it were single-use, then that would make the feature (which I already think of as lackluster) practically useless compared to equivalent ones other subclasses like the Alchemist have (which I'm still not keen on).
Since it's not been covered so far, here's what a first level dip into Artificer will get a multiclassing wizard:
- Medium Armor and Shields - Con save proficiency - Perception Skill and Thieves Tools - Guidance cantrip - Some choice, Intelligence-based 1st level spells, including sanctuary and faerie fire (the latter makes me so happy) - With the change to Multiclassing rules, no slowdown in spell slot progression!
I assume by first level dip you are talking about starting out as an Artificer as your initial class and then multiclassing into Wizard. Otherwise dipping into Artificer doesn't provide you with CON Save or Perception Skill proficiency. Nor does it provide you with the Thieves Tools (only proficiency with the tools).
Also, as a DM, I would be semi-annoyed with the Min-Maxing involved with having the initial class be the dipping class, but that is purely my preference as a Player / Dungeon Master.
I hear that objection, and the power gamers shall always be a pain, but it seems to make perfect sense to me that someone might be raised a certain way—trained in the art of artifice, for example—and decide they want to be something different when they strike out on their own. To me, that makes far more sense than, "I've gone 8 levels in paladin, but now I'm going to spend 2 levels learning to play the viol as a bard before going back to smiting."
And also, one should consult the ever-wise Treantmonk on this dilemma...
Since it's not been covered so far, here's what a first level dip into Artificer will get a multiclassing wizard:
- Medium Armor and Shields - Con save proficiency - Perception Skill and Thieves Tools - Guidance cantrip - Some choice, Intelligence-based 1st level spells, including sanctuary and faerie fire (the latter makes me so happy) - With the change to Multiclassing rules, no slowdown in spell slot progression!
I assume by first level dip you are talking about starting out as an Artificer as your initial class and then multiclassing into Wizard. Otherwise dipping into Artificer doesn't provide you with CON Save or Perception Skill proficiency. Nor does it provide you with the Thieves Tools (only proficiency with the tools).
Also, as a DM, I would be semi-annoyed with the Min-Maxing involved with having the initial class be the dipping class, but that is purely my preference as a Player / Dungeon Master.
I hear that objection, and the power gamers shall always be a pain, but it seems to make perfect sense to me that someone might be raised a certain way—trained in the art of artifice, for example—and decide they want to be something different when they strike out on their own. To me, that makes far more sense than, "I've gone 8 levels in paladin, but now I'm going to spend 2 levels learning to play the viol as a bard before going back to smiting."
And also, one should consult the ever-wise Treantmonk on this dilemma...
I'm not planning to derail this thread, that is why my post only casually mentioned min-maxing as a personal annoyance.
Rereading the Stun on Archevists Mind Overload, there is some weird language. If you spend a slot the target automatically makes a Saving throw independent of the to hit saving throw. I still think this is something to focus on as it turns every even first level slot into a Stun.
Also note this is not a spell or even a cantrip, even if you are spending a spellslot, therefore plays nice with BA spells. (But sadly can’t be Metamagiced by Sorcerers)
Yea, that is a little weird to have two saves. I'd probably have it worded as follows:
Mind Overload. When you expend a spell slot to increase the damage of Information Overload and they fail the Intelligence saving throw, the target is also stunned until the end of your next turn.
Also, Information Overload, similar to a Paladin's Divine smite, works well with a Warlock's Pact Slots the refresh on a short rest.
That is the way I read it, but I disagree with your last statement on warlock slots and I think that’s why we have a different ranking of this feature. At level 14 you can cause a BBEG to make a save or stun roll 11 times in a row once per round. At this point I could go up against a Terrasque with -4 on d20 vs my 18 spell save. And after a few legendary saves it is stunned for almost 10 rounds.
The only further limitation I noticed is more of a bad quality of life rather than a balancing point: The Information Overload only works on a 5ft range and the Mind itself does not threaten AoO in its area, so you have to spend BA moving up to target MA Stunning it. But it is tiny so could be hiding in the same spot as your tank.
It is like Hideous Laughter but with no saves on damage and with a way better (for PCs) saving throw.
I still really want an Alchemist revamp that looks more like the 2017 version-- homunculi are interesting and all but I don't feel like they should be the main thing for the Alchemist. Although real life alchemists did have an interest in homunculi, alchemists first and foremost attempted to purify, mature, and perfect materials and their craft was essentially magical chemistry.
I read somewhere that Jeremy Crawford was mulling over the idea of making something similar to Alchemists Satchel as a kind of Artificer Infusion. If they moved some of the power of Alchemical Mastery onto not only Spells, but Infusions AND potions created out of combat... I feel like a lot of problems I have with the subclass would be fixed (though I still think Spell Storing Item should be moved to a lower level and should scale to allow higher leveled spells).
So, there's a question I have regarding the Archivist's Manifest Mind feature. It says that the spectral mind has a hover speed of 30 ft that can be used as a bonus action; however, it also says that you can manifest it anywhere within 60 feet of you as a bonus action. Does that mean, as written, that instead of using the movement I could just summon it somewhere else to cover farther distances?
Yea, that is a little weird to have two saves. I'd probably have it worded as follows:
Mind Overload. When you expend a spell slot to increase the damage of Information Overload and they fail the Intelligence saving throw, the target is also stunned until the end of your next turn.
Also, Information Overload, similar to a Paladin's Divine smite, works well with a Warlock's Pact Slots the refresh on a short rest.
That is the way I read it, but I disagree with your last statement on warlock slots and I think that’s why we have a different ranking of this feature. At level 14 you can cause a BBEG to make a save or stun roll 11 times in a row once per round. At this point I could go up against a Terrasque with -4 on d20 vs my 18 spell save. And after a few legendary saves it is stunned for almost 10 rounds.
The only further limitation I noticed is more of a bad quality of life rather than a balancing point: The Information Overload only works on a 5ft range and the Mind itself does not threaten AoO in its area, so you have to spend BA moving up to target MA Stunning it. But it is tiny so could be hiding in the same spot as your tank.
It is like Hideous Laughter but with no saves on damage and with a way better (for PCs) saving throw.
I'm confused at what part of my statement do you disagree with? I was just commenting on the fact that you can use spell slots from a different class for Information Overload, which is true. There isn't anything to "disagree" with.
Are there any infusions or spells that could be used to buff the Iron Defender?
Also I find it strange that the Replicate Magic Item infusion has uncommon wondrous magic items to choose from with no level limitation, but also uncommon wondrous magic items that you have to wait till 12th level to get. Isn't the rarity a designator for how powerful a magic item is? Why not just open up all uncommon wondrous magic items to start and then open the rare ones at 12th level and then very rare at 18th (or something similar)?
What are your favorite infusions?
What Replicate Magic Item(s) do you think are the most useful?
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I think it is important to note that they weren't going to make mechanically sweeping changes to the core class until after a survey has been received, so moving the Spell-Storing Item, Arcane Armament, or additional Attunements wasn't expected in the "Artificer Returns" UA. That would probably happen in the Artificer 3.0 or when it is published.
Like others, I'd rather have seen the Battle Smith get a set of arcano-mechanical armor instead of a construct pet. To me it feels more like a pet that the ranger's beast master should have gotten. Not that it really matters, the big things about the Battle Smith are the access to martial weapons and the ability to use INT on attack and damage rolls with weapons.
I do think, that like the Hexblade warlock, the ability to use INT on attack & damage should either be limited to 1 weapon, changeable after a long rest or (my preference) to a weapon created by one of our Infusions.
I'd rather not have seen the Battle Smith given Smite spells since they require Bonus Actions I'd probably rather use to control my Iron Defender.
I'm not too worried about the Battle Master though. At least now we have reasonable firm rules that can be used in the creation of other Archetypes (Artificer or other classes)
My current Artificers (2 campaigns) are Artillerists. So far, out of 10-12 summon's of my Turret, I have used Defender at least 75% of the time. At our levels (4 & 5) the Temporary hp buff every round has saved the party several times. I look forward to trying the Battle Smith, maybe seeing if the DM will let me try the Iron Defender reconfigured as battle armor, but in my testing of the Alchemist Homunculous, it has so far left me unimpressed; admittedly that Artificer only made it to 2nd level . . .
Personally, I like the idea of the Archivist, but I think that an Invulnerable familiar that you can cast spells through (30 to 300 feet?) may be a bit more than too powerful. The rules do not say that you need line-of-sight to the manifestation point, only that it can't pass through objects. By my interpretation, this means you can cause it to manifest on the other side of a door, you can see through it eyes, and you can observe the room with impunity.
Due to the lack of cantrips requiring a hit roll, I find the Enhanced Wand a little lackluster unless you are multi-classing with wizard, then it is sweet. Personally, I wonder why the Artificer wasn't granted access to the Green Flame Blade & Booming Blade cantrip. These seem to fit the artificer perfectly as they enhance the artificer's melee weapon perfectly ???
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Personally, I think that the requirement for Attunement should be waived for any item that requires Attunement if that item created by the Artificer and is being used by the Artificer. Just add this ability at 10th level since the current 10th level ability is severely lackluster.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
This version of the Artificer makes me so incredibly happy. When I first heard about this class, I was sure it was something that I would not want to play. This later version not only serves as the best multiclassing dip for a wizard now, hands-down, it's also a very strong class all on its own. I love it, and I'll probably play it!
Since it's not been covered so far, here's what a first level dip into Artificer will get a multiclassing wizard:
- Medium Armor and Shields
- Con save proficiency
- Perception Skill and Thieves Tools
- Guidance cantrip
- Some choice, Intelligence-based 1st level spells, including sanctuary and faerie fire (the latter makes me so happy)
- With the change to Multiclassing rules, no slowdown in spell slot progression!
The only "meh" part about it is that you need a hand free for tools if you're going to use an artificer spell, but that's a fairly minor downside.
I assume by first level dip you are talking about starting out as an Artificer as your initial class and then multiclassing into Wizard. Otherwise dipping into Artificer doesn't provide you with CON Save or Perception Skill proficiency. Nor does it provide you with the Thieves Tools (only proficiency with the tools).
Also, as a DM, I would be semi-annoyed with the Min-Maxing involved with having the initial class be the dipping class, but that is purely my preference as a Player / Dungeon Master.
I still really want an Alchemist revamp that looks more like the 2017 version-- homunculi are interesting and all but I don't feel like they should be the main thing for the Alchemist. Although real life alchemists did have an interest in homunculi, alchemists first and foremost attempted to purify, mature, and perfect materials and their craft was essentially magical chemistry.
i like linguistics and, well, d&d, obviously. this bio hadn't been updated for 3 years so i figured i'd do that.
On both my current Artificers, I went to 3rd level as Artificer then went for a 2 level wizard dip to go War Magic. I may go 1 additional level of wizard eventually, but I am not sure.
One of my Artificers is a Crossbow Expert (human)and I have been very happy with him so far. The other is a Valenar High Elf specializing with the double-bladed scimitar. Currently, both are Artillerists. I will, with the DM's permission, switch my elf artificer over to Battle Smith. My Crossbow Expert tends to use a Defender Turret for temp hp and half-cover.
Remember, you can use an Infused item as a focus instead of your tools. My Crossbow Expert uses his Enhanced Weapon (Hand Crossbow) as his focus. I will be switching to the new Repeating Shot Infusion so I hand use a shield. Eventually I have to get War Caster, but until then I may have to put away my weapon at times to cast a spell (Material Component requirements).
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Rereading the Stun on Archevists Mind Overload, there is some weird language. If you spend a slot the target automatically makes a Saving throw independent of the to hit saving throw. I still think this is something to focus on as it turns every even first level slot into a Stun.
Also note this is not a spell or even a cantrip, even if you are spending a spellslot, therefore plays nice with BA spells. (But sadly can’t be Metamagiced by Sorcerers)
Yea, that is a little weird to have two saves. I'd probably have it worded as follows:
Also, Information Overload, similar to a Paladin's Divine smite, works well with a Warlock's Pact Slots the refresh on a short rest.
A question I have about the Artillerist's Wand Prototype feature: when you imbue a wand, do you get to cast that spell at will until your next rest, or only once? If only once, that seems like a lackluster feature. If at will, they could have said so, although I fear that might be a little overpowered, giving you an extra cantrip that you can switch out. Granted, the whole class gets that at level 10.
The Wand Prototype feature does not specify a limit to the number of times it can produce the cantrip, as such there is no limit and can be done at-will.
The Battle Smith's battle buddy seems like good guidance to fix the Beast Master's companion.
I'd imagine that any cantrips you'd cast with Wand Prototype would be at-will like usual. If it were single-use, then that would make the feature (which I already think of as lackluster) practically useless compared to equivalent ones other subclasses like the Alchemist have (which I'm still not keen on).
I hear that objection, and the power gamers shall always be a pain, but it seems to make perfect sense to me that someone might be raised a certain way—trained in the art of artifice, for example—and decide they want to be something different when they strike out on their own. To me, that makes far more sense than, "I've gone 8 levels in paladin, but now I'm going to spend 2 levels learning to play the viol as a bard before going back to smiting."
And also, one should consult the ever-wise Treantmonk on this dilemma...
I'm not planning to derail this thread, that is why my post only casually mentioned min-maxing as a personal annoyance.
That is the way I read it, but I disagree with your last statement on warlock slots and I think that’s why we have a different ranking of this feature. At level 14 you can cause a BBEG to make a save or stun roll 11 times in a row once per round. At this point I could go up against a Terrasque with -4 on d20 vs my 18 spell save. And after a few legendary saves it is stunned for almost 10 rounds.
The only further limitation I noticed is more of a bad quality of life rather than a balancing point: The Information Overload only works on a 5ft range and the Mind itself does not threaten AoO in its area, so you have to spend BA moving up to target MA Stunning it. But it is tiny so could be hiding in the same spot as your tank.
It is like Hideous Laughter but with no saves on damage and with a way better (for PCs) saving throw.
I read somewhere that Jeremy Crawford was mulling over the idea of making something similar to Alchemists Satchel as a kind of Artificer Infusion. If they moved some of the power of Alchemical Mastery onto not only Spells, but Infusions AND potions created out of combat... I feel like a lot of problems I have with the subclass would be fixed (though I still think Spell Storing Item should be moved to a lower level and should scale to allow higher leveled spells).
So, there's a question I have regarding the Archivist's Manifest Mind feature. It says that the spectral mind has a hover speed of 30 ft that can be used as a bonus action; however, it also says that you can manifest it anywhere within 60 feet of you as a bonus action. Does that mean, as written, that instead of using the movement I could just summon it somewhere else to cover farther distances?
I'm confused at what part of my statement do you disagree with? I was just commenting on the fact that you can use spell slots from a different class for Information Overload, which is true. There isn't anything to "disagree" with.
Couple of questions
Are there any infusions or spells that could be used to buff the Iron Defender?
Also I find it strange that the Replicate Magic Item infusion has uncommon wondrous magic items to choose from with no level limitation, but also uncommon wondrous magic items that you have to wait till 12th level to get. Isn't the rarity a designator for how powerful a magic item is? Why not just open up all uncommon wondrous magic items to start and then open the rare ones at 12th level and then very rare at 18th (or something similar)?
What are your favorite infusions?
What Replicate Magic Item(s) do you think are the most useful?