Given it has been two weeks and quite a lot of my feedback has evolved, given deeper thought and playing around with the mechanics, I wanted to collate my planned feedback for the survey:
Even given the below I do think this iteration delivers the best Artificer to date, delivering build complexity close to core classes while maintaining the mechanics and theme appropriate.
In my opinion an Artificer should: Make Magic Items, Be able to Use the Most Magic Items and Make Items that Replicate Magic. On an Int Half caster body to fill out the roster of classes, and with theming around mechanics, enchanting and mad scientists.
I find the half caster at level 1 extremely inelegant, like deciding to give a class Extra Attack at level 4 or only at level 20 for their capstone.
Proposal: Give a level 1 feature that gives Cantrips but move Spell casting to level 2. My best suggestion is move “Right Cantrip for the Job” to level 1, giving a very unique feel with only 2 or 3 Cantrips known but always have ability to change on short rest. (Also protecting common homebrew cantrip swaps on level up)
The current iteration of Spell Storing and Superior Attunements feel very out of the blue, it can’t be a core part of your identity just randomly “I can do this now”.
Proposal: Add Superior Attunement to 10th and 15th levels, let the DM control the power level at his table. And add Spell Storing item to Infusions. Instead of locking a Spell slot, we think it would be good to make the Spell Slot spent on activation of that item.
The spell list currently is well focused but a half caster has to have some unique spells on their list similar to Paladin Auras and Smite spells and Ranger’s Arrow Spells and Conjure Volleys.
Proposal: Add some kind of potion like spells to the list and more enchantment like spells unique to Artificer.
Artillerist Wand features seem to clash with Mechanical aspects. This seems like spending two potential subclass themes without delivering as well as it should on either.
Proposal: Link Artillerist to Crossbows allowing them to craft crossbows faster and potentially auto loading crossbows for themselves. And instead leave the Subclass space for a dedicated Wandslinger, perhaps in the finalised Ebberon book.
The Artillerist’s turret had a lot of misunderstandings and the use of MA really cripples deployment in combat as the lost damage takes a long time to catch up via the BAs.
Proposal: Clarify within the text that the magical object is not subject to spells targeting creatures. If intending to help the turret usability maybe move summon to BA or let the turret remain deployed until destroyed, otherwise players will always wait till combat starts as it only lasts 10 minutes.
Alchemist theming is more broad than just as a healer, the current features giving restoration magic are wasted on the Mad Scientist players.
Proposal: Add a choice to the restoration features letting players cast healing or poisoning spells on the shared resource. Eg greaterrestoration or contagion once per long rest, and one of ray of enfeeblement or bestowcurse for the level 6 feature.
You do realise that you can deploy the turret as an action and then attack on the same turn as a bonus action right ? And the damage itself outmatch any cantrips at level 17. I dont know where you think the turret doesnt do enough damage unless you compare it to spells themselves. Heck even a fighter with capstone has trouble doing that much damage with extra attack alone.
Fighter does 4 attacks with great sword. Thats 4x2d6+5 strenght. Equals 33 damage average in 4 attacks.
Artificer turret... 1 attack 6d8 equal 27 damage average which is literally only 1 damage less then a fighter if not counting strenght. Which im not sure the turret counts a stats or not.
Of course the fighter has more things to make up for it by his abilities. But thats the point. To me i dont get why you guys want the turret to do more when it already rivals a fighter at his capstone and his already stronger then any cantrips.
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With a focus on crossbows, I personally don't think Artificers should be pidgeoned holed into having to take a feat at level 4 (Crossbow Expert) to gain full advantage of the Arcane Armaments ability at level 5.
They should either make it similar to the level 7 Eldritch Knight ability, or include an Infusion that can magically remove the Loading and Ammunition properties on weapons. That way the Crossbow Expert feat is still nice to have (for it's other abilities and freeing up an infusion), but not a necessity.
@DnDPaladin happy to try explain again let’s do a DPR comparison of Fighter at level 20 with +5 STR and +3 greatsword and an Artificer with +5 Dex and +3 Crossbow with Arcane weapon giving 1d6. Everyone has equal to hit except the turret which does not get the +3 to Hit from the weapon.
Fighter deals: 4 attacks at 2d6+3+5 = 4*15 = 60
Artificer MA deals: 2 attacks at 1d10+1d6+3+5=2*17=34
Artificer BA deals: 4d8=18 -> Total = 52
Okay Fighter is supposed to be the best raw DPR class with no resource spent and 8 DPR less is not bad.
Now for the very important part!!!
Fighter over the course of 5 turns of combat gets full DPR every round = 60+60+60+60+60 = 300!
Personally I think the turret should follow along the same action economy as Spiritual Weapon. Bonus action to place as as part of putting out the bonus action you can attack. Then on subsequent turns you can use your bonus action to place / attack (though before level 14 you can only have one out at a time).
I'm looking at possible making an Artificer and reading through your explinations @DnDPaladin and @Arutha, maybe you can clarify for me.
Where are you getting the Artificer turret does 4d8 or 6d8 damage?
The way I am reading this (and I am most likely misunderstanding as I only read the revised today) is that:
You can use your action to throw down the Turret If its the Flamethrower one then as a bonus action it can do 1d8 damage (provided the target fails the save). I am not seeing anywhere that this damage scales, so where is the many d8 attack coming from?
Also, like others have said, I would love an ETA on when this will be on D&D Beyond!
They are cutting corners and not explaining everything. They are discussing DPR at level 20 and using the Force Ballistae (2d8) as reference. At level 20 you can have two turrets out, meaning that is 4d8 as a bonus action.
Now how they calculate 6d8 I am not sure, but it could be they are assuming light crossbow + crossbow expert + arcane armament class feature.
You do realise that you can deploy the turret as an action and then attack on the same turn as a bonus action right ? And the damage itself outmatch any cantrips at level 17. I dont know where you think the turret doesnt do enough damage unless you compare it to spells themselves. Heck even a fighter with capstone has trouble doing that much damage with extra attack alone.
Fighter does 4 attacks with great sword. Thats 4x2d6+5 strenght. Equals 33 damage average in 4 attacks.
Artificer turret... 1 attack 6d8 equal 27 damage average which is literally only 1 damage less then a fighter if not counting strenght. Which im not sure the turret counts a stats or not.
Of course the fighter has more things to make up for it by his abilities. But thats the point. To me i dont get why you guys want the turret to do more when it already rivals a fighter at his capstone and his already stronger then any cantrips.
Unless I've terribly misunderstood something, even at level 20 an Artificer should only be using the turrets to deal 4d8 force damage (split 2d8 per turret, which they're only allowed two of) for an average roll of 18 damage. If we put Fire Bolt (4d10+5 = 27 ) in their wand and calculate the average damage they would have dealt the next round that puts them at an average of 45. If the Artificer is using a +1 Heavy Crossbow (which they make themselves) and we assume they have maxed dex it deals an average of 2x(1d10+6) for an average of 17 or a total round average of 35.
Compare that to a Fighter (with no subclass or fighting style as Great Weapon Fighter would up the average, Champion DPR would require to hit calculation accounting for increased critical range, Battlemaster could simply add a d12 to each strike, Samurai can make a 5th strike and EK could cast fireball and make a weapon attack. The Fighter also doesn't get a magic weapon at level 20, which the Artificer requires to attack twice) who deals 4x(2d6+5) for a total of 48 average damage per round (2d6 averages to 7, +5 on each strike from Strength and times 4)
A Level 20 Fighter using nothing but Extra Attack completely overshadows the Artificer in damage. Give the Fighter equal opportunity, such as a Magic Weapon, a viable use of his Bonus Action or access to his subclass features and it's not even a contest. Which is what should happen. For a supportive class, the Artificer is lucky to have such versatile playstyle options.
With a focus on crossbows, I personally don't think Artificers should be pidgeoned holed into having to take a feat at level 4 (Crossbow Expert) to gain full advantage of the Arcane Armaments ability at level 5.
They should either make it similar to the level 7 Eldritch Knight ability, or include an Infusion that can magically remove the Loading and Ammunition properties on weapons. That way the Crossbow Expert feat is still nice to have (for it's other abilities and freeing up an infusion), but not a necessity.
100% agree on Infusion or as I suggest free feature at level 3 Artillerist to craft auto load crossbows. Let me quote a few paragraphs redarding Eldritch Knight ability because I believe that would not work on Artillerist as both use their bonus actions.
Eldritch Knight:
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonusaction.
Artillerist Turret:
On each of your turns, you can take a bonus action to cause the turret to activate if you are within 60 feet of it.
They are cutting corners and not explaining everything. They are discussing DPR at level 20 and using the Force Ballistae (2d8) as reference. At level 20 you can have two turrets out, meaning that is 4d8 as a bonus action.
Now how they calculate 6d8 I am not sure, but it could be they are assuming light crossbow + crossbow expert + arcane armament class feature.
Thank you for clarifying it is hard to be sure I mention everything, thank you for filling in those details. Do you agree with the calculations?
Also love the idea of using the spiritual weapon text, even if the turret may need to take a damage cut as it is resorceless not even spell slots but as per my calculations it doesn’t even need the damage cut.
When I said Eldritch knights ability, I meant similar, not identical. I would have it worded as follows for the Artificer:
Beginning at 5th level, when you use the attack action to attack with a magical weapon, you can cast a cantrip as part of your attack action.
Perfect although maybe other classes would be too encouraged to dip the class for 5 levels, haha. (Sorry just trying to iterate to make sure we consider everything)
I agree with their calculations. Though I don't think it is a fair assessment. The Artificer is clearly meant to be a support class and not full on damage class. The fighter and artificer serve different roles and I think for what the artificer does it does it very well.
For one, the Artificer is a half caster and fighter is a full martial. It would be just as absurd to compare the artificer to full casters. It would be better to compare an Artificer to other half caster classes.
When I said Eldritch knights ability, I meant similar, not identical. I would have it worded as follows for the Artificer:
Beginning at 5th level, when you use the attack action to attack with a magical weapon, you can cast a cantrip as part of your attack action.
Perfect although maybe other classes would be too encouraged to dip the class for 5 levels, haha. (Sorry just trying to iterate to make sure we consider everything)
I wouldnt really call 5 levels a "dip", but that is fine.
I agree with their calculations. Though I don't think it is a fair assessment. The Artificer is clearly meant to be a support class and not full on damage class. The fighter and artificer serve different roles and I think for what the artificer does it does it very well.
Agreed with that although I feel like an Artillerist would want to play a damage focused build and even if you consider the calculations above he would be better off ignoring his core turret feature.
Please refer to the above definitions but an Artificer ignoring his turret could over 5 turns deal: 34+34+34+34+34=170 damage compared to the 183. And would not feel useless for the first two turns while setting up his turrets and only getting 9 and 18 damage.
And if you find a use for you BA then the calculation gets really unfavourable.
To be fair, this is assuming an unprepared surprised encounter. It definitely happens, but I would imagine if you are playing an artificer (high intelligence) you will be playing a sort of tactician and would try to have the turrets out before combat begins.
I'm not sure I agree with having the turret's duration increased. It's movement is debilitating for any form of travel and having it out for extended periods would be conterintuitive to the "tactician" theme as it would be tactically disadvantageous to be hamstrung by such a slow moving turret.
To me the only real change I think it needs is allow it to be summoned as a bonus action similar to Spiritual Weapon.
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I’ve been waiting to scratch this itch for awhile. I already have the character sheet made up, barring class. I’m there with ya.
Given it has been two weeks and quite a lot of my feedback has evolved, given deeper thought and playing around with the mechanics, I wanted to collate my planned feedback for the survey:
Even given the below I do think this iteration delivers the best Artificer to date, delivering build complexity close to core classes while maintaining the mechanics and theme appropriate.
In my opinion an Artificer should: Make Magic Items, Be able to Use the Most Magic Items and Make Items that Replicate Magic. On an Int Half caster body to fill out the roster of classes, and with theming around mechanics, enchanting and mad scientists.
Any idea how long before the Artificer class will be added? Thanks in advance.
You do realise that you can deploy the turret as an action and then attack on the same turn as a bonus action right ? And the damage itself outmatch any cantrips at level 17. I dont know where you think the turret doesnt do enough damage unless you compare it to spells themselves. Heck even a fighter with capstone has trouble doing that much damage with extra attack alone.
Fighter does 4 attacks with great sword. Thats 4x2d6+5 strenght. Equals 33 damage average in 4 attacks.
Artificer turret... 1 attack 6d8 equal 27 damage average which is literally only 1 damage less then a fighter if not counting strenght. Which im not sure the turret counts a stats or not.
Of course the fighter has more things to make up for it by his abilities. But thats the point. To me i dont get why you guys want the turret to do more when it already rivals a fighter at his capstone and his already stronger then any cantrips.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
With a focus on crossbows, I personally don't think Artificers should be pidgeoned holed into having to take a feat at level 4 (Crossbow Expert) to gain full advantage of the Arcane Armaments ability at level 5.
They should either make it similar to the level 7 Eldritch Knight ability, or include an Infusion that can magically remove the Loading and Ammunition properties on weapons. That way the Crossbow Expert feat is still nice to have (for it's other abilities and freeing up an infusion), but not a necessity.
@DnDPaladin happy to try explain again let’s do a DPR comparison of Fighter at level 20 with +5 STR and +3 greatsword and an Artificer with +5 Dex and +3 Crossbow with Arcane weapon giving 1d6. Everyone has equal to hit except the turret which does not get the +3 to Hit from the weapon.
Fighter deals: 4 attacks at 2d6+3+5 = 4*15 = 60
Artificer MA deals: 2 attacks at 1d10+1d6+3+5=2*17=34
Artificer BA deals: 4d8=18 -> Total = 52
Okay Fighter is supposed to be the best raw DPR class with no resource spent and 8 DPR less is not bad.
Now for the very important part!!!
Fighter over the course of 5 turns of combat gets full DPR every round = 60+60+60+60+60 = 300!
Artificer Turn 1 MA=0+BA=2d8=9, Turn 2 MA=0+BA=4d8=18, Turn 3-5 full DPR = 9+18+52+52+52 = 183!!!
Those first turns when you can’t MA Attack are horrendous. You Can’t Attack with your crossbow only with the turret.
Let me know if I missed anything like turret gaining +Int to Damage?
Personally I think the turret should follow along the same action economy as Spiritual Weapon. Bonus action to place as as part of putting out the bonus action you can attack. Then on subsequent turns you can use your bonus action to place / attack (though before level 14 you can only have one out at a time).
I'm looking at possible making an Artificer and reading through your explinations @DnDPaladin and @Arutha, maybe you can clarify for me.
Where are you getting the Artificer turret does 4d8 or 6d8 damage?
The way I am reading this (and I am most likely misunderstanding as I only read the revised today) is that:
You can use your action to throw down the Turret
If its the Flamethrower one then as a bonus action it can do 1d8 damage (provided the target fails the save).
I am not seeing anywhere that this damage scales, so where is the many d8 attack coming from?
Also, like others have said, I would love an ETA on when this will be on D&D Beyond!
They are cutting corners and not explaining everything. They are discussing DPR at level 20 and using the Force Ballistae (2d8) as reference. At level 20 you can have two turrets out, meaning that is 4d8 as a bonus action.
Now how they calculate 6d8 I am not sure, but it could be they are assuming light crossbow + crossbow expert + arcane armament class feature.
Unless I've terribly misunderstood something, even at level 20 an Artificer should only be using the turrets to deal 4d8 force damage (split 2d8 per turret, which they're only allowed two of) for an average roll of 18 damage. If we put Fire Bolt (4d10+5 = 27 ) in their wand and calculate the average damage they would have dealt the next round that puts them at an average of 45. If the Artificer is using a +1 Heavy Crossbow (which they make themselves) and we assume they have maxed dex it deals an average of 2x(1d10+6) for an average of 17 or a total round average of 35.
Compare that to a Fighter (with no subclass or fighting style as Great Weapon Fighter would up the average, Champion DPR would require to hit calculation accounting for increased critical range, Battlemaster could simply add a d12 to each strike, Samurai can make a 5th strike and EK could cast fireball and make a weapon attack. The Fighter also doesn't get a magic weapon at level 20, which the Artificer requires to attack twice) who deals 4x(2d6+5) for a total of 48 average damage per round (2d6 averages to 7, +5 on each strike from Strength and times 4)
A Level 20 Fighter using nothing but Extra Attack completely overshadows the Artificer in damage. Give the Fighter equal opportunity, such as a Magic Weapon, a viable use of his Bonus Action or access to his subclass features and it's not even a contest. Which is what should happen. For a supportive class, the Artificer is lucky to have such versatile playstyle options.
100% agree on Infusion or as I suggest free feature at level 3 Artillerist to craft auto load crossbows. Let me quote a few paragraphs redarding Eldritch Knight ability because I believe that would not work on Artillerist as both use their bonus actions.
Eldritch Knight:
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
Artillerist Turret:
On each of your turns, you can take a bonus action to cause the turret to activate if you are within 60 feet of it.
Thank you for clarifying it is hard to be sure I mention everything, thank you for filling in those details. Do you agree with the calculations?
Also love the idea of using the spiritual weapon text, even if the turret may need to take a damage cut as it is resorceless not even spell slots but as per my calculations it doesn’t even need the damage cut.
When I said Eldritch knights ability, I meant similar, not identical. I would have it worded as follows for the Artificer:
Beginning at 5th level, when you use the attack action to attack with a magical weapon, you can cast a cantrip as part of your attack action.
Perfect although maybe other classes would be too encouraged to dip the class for 5 levels, haha. (Sorry just trying to iterate to make sure we consider everything)
I agree with their calculations. Though I don't think it is a fair assessment. The Artificer is clearly meant to be a support class and not full on damage class. The fighter and artificer serve different roles and I think for what the artificer does it does it very well.
For one, the Artificer is a half caster and fighter is a full martial. It would be just as absurd to compare the artificer to full casters. It would be better to compare an Artificer to other half caster classes.
I wouldnt really call 5 levels a "dip", but that is fine.
Agreed with that although I feel like an Artillerist would want to play a damage focused build and even if you consider the calculations above he would be better off ignoring his core turret feature.
Please refer to the above definitions but an Artificer ignoring his turret could over 5 turns deal: 34+34+34+34+34=170 damage compared to the 183. And would not feel useless for the first two turns while setting up his turrets and only getting 9 and 18 damage.
And if you find a use for you BA then the calculation gets really unfavourable.
To be fair, this is assuming an unprepared surprised encounter. It definitely happens, but I would imagine if you are playing an artificer (high intelligence) you will be playing a sort of tactician and would try to have the turrets out before combat begins.
Agreed that is why my favourite solution is just having the turret our for longer, thank you for the help with the descriptions and calculations.
I'm not sure I agree with having the turret's duration increased. It's movement is debilitating for any form of travel and having it out for extended periods would be conterintuitive to the "tactician" theme as it would be tactically disadvantageous to be hamstrung by such a slow moving turret.
To me the only real change I think it needs is allow it to be summoned as a bonus action similar to Spiritual Weapon.