When we cast Dispel magic, do we get to add out chosen tool set Proficiency bonus to the die roll when trying to dispel magic over a spell level higher than the spell slot we are using (ie: 3th level slot versus a 9th level spell)?
Our chosen tool grants us doub;e Proficiency bonus with them. Those same tools count as our Arcane spell focus.???
Just wondering, I haven't got there yet. :) But the previous post got me wondering.
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Mergon - Interesting (although OP) idea, but no. Arcane focus (or any equivalent) doesn't let you add your proficiency bonus to your spellcasting. It just "allows" for spellcasting in the first place, and your proficiency bonus comes from you (if that makes sense). There are things like wands of the war mage that let you add +1, +2 or +3 to your attack rolls (not sure if damage rolls as well) of spells, and an amazing Rod of the Pact Keeper and Robe of Archmagi lets you add similar bonus to the DC of your spells (mighty powerful items).
The things that apply to Dispel Magic and Counterspell are the ones that specifically state bonus to "ability checks", and there's quite a lot of those:
guidance
enhance ability (although that gives advantage, not flat bonus)
bardic inspiration
DMs inspiration
lore bard "peerless skill" (which is just self inspiration)
abjuration wizard's feature (that lets you add your proficiency specifically to dispel/counterspell checks)
Jumping into the debate over clear rules, I'm Gina have to say that 5e is a great system that has a really upsetting issue with the design philosophy. In trying to give players as much freedom as possible, they seem to give over to being almost uselessly vague in a lot of instances. Being on a strange schedule and without a great internet connection at home, I can't exactly go shopping for new groups or DMs, and the ones I do play with tend to be rules sticklers. It's not derailing to the entire game by any means, but getting a clear answer on my questions is part of the reason I pay like $50 to buy these hardcover rulebooks.
I'd also like more definition and hard thematic elements beyond "oh your tools help you do the magic, make it up on your own". I want the Alchemist to actually do alchemy stuff, not be a pet-based support healer who I have to ~*~imagine~*~ doing alchemy! I want the Artillerist to have its focus on ARTILLERY, not wands that any old spellcaster has. Just give the turret more abilities instead! Stop forcing Eberron flavor into my universal class!
Though, TBF, I honestly don't even think Artificers and Alchemists should be related. I think alchemy and artifice have chemical vs. arcanomechanical trappings and should be separate entities altogether.
This is what I am talking about!!!! The Alchemist in the UA Artificer that was introduce back in Jan 2017 felt more like Alchemist than the one in the Artificer Revisited UA. The new one has a pet homunculus (that in my opinion is useless) and 2 additional subclass features that for the most part but do nothing but expand upon the Alchemist's "SPELLCASTING" ability. I want an Alchemist that has features that has something that deals with alchemy and not a pet or anything that improves spellcasting.
I agree that the wands do nothing for the Artillerist. Crafting any good wand will require the character to be at least 9th level.
With that being said, I have no issues with the Alchemist being a subclass for the Artificer. They both create things. The Alchemist just specializes in crafting potions.
The elements are there to account for the alchemy. You can work with your DM to make a better system for you BUT, there is a system in place for you to do more alchemy than other players... and to do it better (one example):
Alchemy Crafting: Takes 1/4 time and 1/2 gold.
Workday: 8hr.
Common: (1 per 2hr. @ 12.5g)
Healing Potion
Any other character is going to spend 8 hours doing what you do in 2, they are going to spend twice the amount of gold, and they are going to have more complications and less successes. Now, that’s just one example out of what amounts to an expanded spell list of potions: Potions of Climbing, Healing, Bottled Breath, Oil of Slipperiness, Potions of Giant Strength, Heroism, Invulnerability, etc. Depending on your downtime/play ratio you could be bringing a lot of support to your group just through potions. (note: Make sure to set up, early on, with your group that you can save them money at least on potions of healing by making them ‘in-house’. I’ve made a lot of coin for crafting without it having to come from my poersonal coffers this way.)
Explan to your DM that it is a staple of your class and see if they can work with you to make it fit their needs, most DMs worth their salt will jump at the chance to homebrew with you.
Downtime crafting shouldn't be the only good thing about the Alchemist. The revisited Alchemist has a pet and advantages to spellcasting. Nothing to do with Alchemy.
One other question to ask yourself @Salo, can you really think of at least 10 subclasses for an Alchemist and seperate 10 for Artificer? I mean Alchemist crafts magic potions Artificer crafts magic items, seems correlated?
I do think the subclasses lack a initial feature to help feel more Alchemical/Artillery before jumping straight into the pets etc. For Alchemist I would suggest:
“You have learned to weave your spellcasting into potions. As part of a cast action you can choose to deliver a touch spell or Cantrip via a thrown potion. Make a ranged spell attack using your dexterity modifier, if targeting allies roll against an AC of 10.”
NO!!!! Why is everyone going back to spellcasting with the Alchemist? And why would you add a negative when trying to assist allies?
The alchemist is about making potions and using those to aid and support yourself and your allies. Requiring the player to use a tool kit (uncorking a beaker to cast stinking cloud) or flair (drinking a potion that has a consistency of mud when they cast a alter self) when they are casting a spell isn't a useful feature. It hinders a player and forces them to use imagination. The vast majority of RPG players already have an imagination, and if for some reason a player loses all of their stuff (put in jail or robbed), they can't cast spells and spellcasting is a major part of the class.
Direct quote from the Artificer Revisited UA...
"Tools Required -You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus — specifically, Thieves’ Tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature. You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of these tools. After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus."
So, as I stated above, if an Artificer is robbed or they are put in jail they will be unable to use their spellcasting ability. And until they get their stuff back or get access to some tools, a wizard without their spellbook would be more useful.
I think the problem some folks are having isn't a lack of imagination (imagination's a given with a game like DnD) I think it's some of us expected WotC to keep some of the crunchier elements of the last Artificer iteration, only to find that they were removed either partly or wholly and replaced either with fluff (you use your tools to cast spells) or with features that are just bland, worse versions of features that other classes have (Arcane Armament, both subclass' level 6 abilites that add your Intelligence modifier to a limited number of your spells).
I appreciate that there's things folks are liking, and I appreciate that in certain areas there have been steps taken forward, but in some regards steps were taken backward as well, I (and apparently others) feel...
I dunno. I'm trying to be fair, and I'm trying to put together feedback that encompasses more than just my own preferences, but I'd be lying if I said I liked where this class was at. I guess right now it's wait and see what the next UA brings...
On a scale of Crunch to Fluff I lean farther on the fluff side of things. If I wanted crunch I'd play Warhammer, Descent or some other battle simulator.
That being said, I do think there or some oddities that could be resolved, which I have already discussed within this thread and much if what Jeremy Crawford has discussed I like the direction. If you have listens to the Dragon+ YouTube chat with him, I recommend. He goes into depth on things that will likely change and added. For example, Arcane Armaments will more than likely be relegated to a subclass and something else will replace it at level 5.
I think the problem some folks are having isn't a lack of imagination (imagination's a given with a game like DnD) I think it's some of us expected WotC to keep some of the crunchier elements of the last Artificer iteration, only to find that they were removed either partly or wholly and replaced either with fluff (you use your tools to cast spells) or with features that are just bland, worse versions of features that other classes have (Arcane Armament, both subclass' level 6 abilites that add your Intelligence modifier to a limited number of your spells).
I appreciate that there's things folks are liking, and I appreciate that in certain areas there have been steps taken forward, but in some regards steps were taken backward as well, I (and apparently others) feel...
I dunno. I'm trying to be fair, and I'm trying to put together feedback that encompasses more than just my own preferences, but I'd be lying if I said I liked where this class was at. I guess right now it's wait and see what the next UA brings...
In the D&D Beyond YouTube video "The New Artificer In Dungeons & Dragons' Unearthed Arcana" at around the 1:35 mark, Jeremy Crawford states that they channeled the Artificer as it originally appeared in the World of Eberron and they are also channeling many things that were in D&D for many years.
The problem I have is that everything that I have read or watched, mentions how the Artificer Revisited has that Eberron feel to it. D&D isn't just the World of Eberron. D&D is made up of thousands of world, whether they are Official WotC D&D worlds or the homebrew worlds like the one seen on Critical Role. So why would they make the Artificer feel like it came from Eberron?
I understand that no class is perfect, but like you said they went backwards with the Artificer. Infusions and the homunculus both came from the Artificer is 3.5's Eberron Campaign Setting. The Mechanical Servant from the UA Artificer didn't really fit and it seems like others didn't care for it as well, so why bring in the homunculus? And infusion are only temporary items and the advantages that they give the player is broken. A +1 returning weapon and a +1 shield or armor at 2nd level is overpowered in my opinion.
My biggest complaint about the revisit is that everything is literally spellcasting. Everything. I like the Artillerist but it requires the smith's tools to magical summon a medium sized turret, as if you were summoning a lesser or greater demon. What about during downtime, the Artillerist tinkers away and comes up with plans for a new turret design. He builds the turret and tests it, once complete he magically causes the turret to reduce in size and collapse in on itself making the turret look like a mundane item the size of a deck of cards. To use it, he throws the mundane item out while chanting some words. When the turret lands, it begins to enlarge and transforms into the turret. This explanation of summoning the turret is better than saying I pullout my smithing hammer and strike it on the ground causing a turret to appear.
They try to say that the Artificer isn't about magic and casting spells, but everything that is discussed about it is magic and casting spells.
Jeremy Crawford in the same video that I mentioned above states that the beginning of the video that the Artificer Revisited is meant to have more versatility than any other class in the game. Why?
@grizzlebub I can appreciate that, I just think that (for me at least) it just needs a little more *oomph*, especially at the early levels.
I've had those videos loaded up but haven't had a chance to watch them yet (thanks, school...). When I can, hopefully that will give me a better idea of where to focus my thoughts.
@marine2874 your wizard friend will be stuck without focus or component pouch and with only spells that do not have "M" in them. I dont think your wizard will like it either as most if not all damage dealers will be turned off. Sorry but your argument is lacking since all spellcasters are in the same boat. You still have infusions to help out. The same way clerics have still channel divinity.
Seriously if your goal is to always have an out if taken to prisons. Then i think you are missing the point of being jailed. Being jailed should never be a walk in the park. If it was then the fear of consequences would be severely diminished.
My players for exemples fear the capital city prison. Because it has magic dempeners as well as stregth sapping chains. They know that if they get taken in to that one they may never see the light of day ever again. And that is only 2 of the devices inside. They fear the xray vision of a warlock warden who will just see thru them if they try to hide thieves tools or anything to help out by eating it.
Those are very real consequences to being a wanted bad guy. Now if i remove these because of players wanting an out to the prison... Then whats the point of the prison if anyone can get in or out that easily ?
Seems to me like you are thinking only players have classes and the rest of the world just suck at everything. That to me is giving too much advantages to the players for next to no rewards for great role play.
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just saying also to others... By discussions it feels like you want more stuff at low levels because you know youll never higher levels.
My cousin thinks like that. He always think whats the best multiclass since ill never get beyond level 8 in a campaign. Cant blame him for that one since it takes almost a full year to level up to 20. But asking all features at low level because of that is ludicrous.
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Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
For the record, I don't want them to take away the fluff, I just want them to add something more that isn't so fluff-dependent. I can't remember if I mentioned it here or not, but I think one way they could do it is re-tune Spell-Storing Item and move it to lower levels, give it some sort of scaling for higher level play, and maybe add a replacement feature that, if it can't be something new, at least give it a meaningful twist.
They did mention that there is a high likelihood that spell storing will be brought to a lower level, now how low they didn't specify.
Personally I think they should also add infusions that are subclass dependent. Maybe infusions that can be applied to turrets, or bring back the alchemist's bag as an infusion just for the alchemist (they did say this was likely as well).
@DnDPaladin I don't think anyone is asking for all the features to be at low level (at least, I'm not) but I do think it needs something more at early levels that isn't mostly fluff. It's been mentioned that Arcane Armament might be moved to a subclass and replaced with something else, perhaps that might be an opportunity to see something with more of a unique twist to the class (doesn't have to be "ZOMG NEW!" just something a little different).
@marine2874 your wizard friend will be stuck without focus or component pouch and with only spells that do not have "M" in them. I dont think your wizard will like it either as most if not all damage dealers will be turned off. Sorry but your argument is lacking since all spellcasters are in the same boat. You still have infusions to help out. The same way clerics have still channel divinity.
Seriously if your goal is to always have an out if taken to prisons. Then i think you are missing the point of being jailed. Being jailed should never be a walk in the park. If it was then the fear of consequences would be severely diminished.
My players for exemples fear the capital city prison. Because it has magic dempeners as well as stregth sapping chains. They know that if they get taken in to that one they may never see the light of day ever again. And that is only 2 of the devices inside. They fear the xray vision of a warlock warden who will just see thru them if they try to hide thieves tools or anything to help out by eating it.
Those are very real consequences to being a wanted bad guy. Now if i remove these because of players wanting an out to the prison... Then whats the point of the prison if anyone can get in or out that easily ?
Seems to me like you are thinking only players have classes and the rest of the world just suck at everything. That to me is giving too much advantages to the players for next to no rewards for great role play.
The point I was making about the Artificer losing their ability to cast spells is because they need a tool or infusion item in order to cast spells. Any other spellcaster has the ability to cast spells without a focus or materials. They still have verbal (saying words) and somatic (gestures) to cast a spell. As for damage dealers, the majority of damage cantrips do not require a material component, only verbal and somatic and there are other lower level damaging spells that do not require a material component. As for infusion, you need a specific item in order for the infusion to work and I don't see how a DM would allow a player (who is in jail)to use a pair of boots that were infused to be "Boots of the Winding Path" to cast any spell that doesn't have anything to do with movement.
Jail and prison are 2 completely different things. Yes, a prison will have been warded to prevent the use of magic and any other number of enchantments that prevent escape. That is because a prison is designed to hold a large number of people of all backgrounds and types. But a jail is not designed to hold a large number of people. And that jail may not have any wards or enchantments placed on it. But this is not the point.
The point that I am making is that the Artificer Revisited relies heavily on spellcasting to do almost anything. The original UA Artificer did not rely heavily on spellcasting but instead the ability crafting magic items and subclasses did not rely heavily on spellcasting as well.
@DnDPaladin I don't think anyone is asking for all the features to be at low level (at least, I'm not) but I do think it needs something more at early levels that isn't mostly fluff. It's been mentioned that Arcane Armament might be moved to a subclass and replaced with something else, perhaps that might be an opportunity to see something with more of a unique twist to the class (doesn't have to be "ZOMG NEW!" just something a little different).
The Magical Tinkering ability/feature is fluff. In my opinion it doesn't bring anything meaningful to the class. To me Arcane Armament limits the players ability to use a normal or ranged melee attack. That ability/feature guarantees that one of the characters infusions will be an enhanced weapon or returning weapon, until they can get their hands on a magical weapon. As it is not until the 6th level that you can have more than 2 infused items.
@Marine 2874 They're probably putting more focus on the Eberron setting because they'll be adding the class to the Eberron source book. With that said, I think it might be a good idea for them to take a step back from that and keep a more setting-general flavor to it.
I know some other people like it, but I don't care for the homunculus any more than I cared for the mechanical servant. I would like to see the Infusions have more unique effects to them rather than number increases, but I'm coming at that from more of a flavor/utility standpoint than any sort of numbers game.
I'm not sure why they placed such emphasis on versatility (is there something I'm missing from the earlier editions here?). Personally I'm fine with it having versatility as a class, but they should take care not to make it too general when they do so.
@Grizzlebub I've been wondering about that with the Infusions as well. I know when they were doing an UA for Warlock invocations they toyed around with having subclass specific invocations and later decided against that, but maybe that's something that could work well with the Artificer instead. I did like the Alchemist Bag in the previous version, I just thought it needed some tweaking. I would love if they brought that back as an infusion or as a choice between that and the homcunulus.
@DnDPaladin I don't think anyone is asking for all the features to be at low level (at least, I'm not) but I do think it needs something more at early levels that isn't mostly fluff. It's been mentioned that Arcane Armament might be moved to a subclass and replaced with something else, perhaps that might be an opportunity to see something with more of a unique twist to the class (doesn't have to be "ZOMG NEW!" just something a little different).
The Magical Tinkering ability/feature is fluff. In my opinion it doesn't bring anything meaningful to the class. To me Arcane Armament limits the players ability to use a normal or ranged melee attack. That ability/feature guarantees that one of the characters infusions will be an enhanced weapon or returning weapon, until they can get their hands on a magical weapon. As it is not until the 6th level that you can have more than 2 infused items.
Odds are, if you use one of your infusions, you will have a magic weapon way before any other party member. I used Returning Weapon on my Spear, and Enhanced Weapon on our fighter's longsword. My other Infusion was Replicate Item (Goggles of Night) since I was plaing a Mark of Making human in Eberron an wanted Darkvision. Once we get the fighter a magic weapon, I'll swap buy a Hand Crossbow and swap Enhanced Weapon to that. I'll swap Returning Weapon over to Replicate Item (Bag of Holding). I plan to take Crossbow Expert at 4th level. That will give me 2 attacks/round with the hand crossbow (Action & Bonus Action), 3 attacks when I hit 5th. Each will get the bonus damage from my Arcane Weapon spell if I can keep it up . . .
The fact you can change 1 Infusion when you level is sweet.
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@Marine2874 Pardon me, I didn't see your second comment. I saw Magical Tinkering as being more like one of the utility cantrips like Prestidigitation or Druidcraft and was planning on suggesting they make it into one for the Artificer Spell List, though someone else (Grizzlebub I believe) suggested adding additional functionality to it by allowing one of the items made with it to be used as a rudimentary spellcasting focus, which I think would make it more meaningful and am planning on making that recommendation as well. As for Arcane Armaments, yeah, I didn't like it either. Unless they add some sort of additional functionality to make up for that, I'd rather they drop the fluff and just make it a normal Extra Attack.
@Marine2874 Pardon me, I didn't see your second comment. I saw Magical Tinkering as being more like one of the utility cantrips like Prestidigitation or Druidcraft and was planning on suggesting they make it into one for the Artificer Spell List, though someone else (Grizzlebub I believe) suggested adding additional functionality to it by allowing one of the items made with it to be used as a rudimentary spellcasting focus, which I think would make it more meaningful and am planning on making that recommendation as well. As for Arcane Armaments, yeah, I didn't like it either. Unless they add some sort of additional functionality to make up for that, I'd rather they drop the fluff and just make it a normal Extra Attack.
My DM has allowed me a Magical Tinker ability to create a Trigger/Detonator. When tapped, it counts down frpm a number you can set to a maximum or 25. When it hits 0, it creates a spark capable of lighting an oil soak rag. Each number of the countdown is 1 second. So the countdown can be set to up to 25 seconds.
Last session, I dropped a copper piece I'd put my trigger on into a barrel of oil after activating it and ran . . .
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I just had a thought.
When we cast Dispel magic, do we get to add out chosen tool set Proficiency bonus to the die roll when trying to dispel magic over a spell level higher than the spell slot we are using (ie: 3th level slot versus a 9th level spell)?
Our chosen tool grants us doub;e Proficiency bonus with them. Those same tools count as our Arcane spell focus.???
Just wondering, I haven't got there yet. :) But the previous post got me wondering.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Mergon - Interesting (although OP) idea, but no. Arcane focus (or any equivalent) doesn't let you add your proficiency bonus to your spellcasting. It just "allows" for spellcasting in the first place, and your proficiency bonus comes from you (if that makes sense). There are things like wands of the war mage that let you add +1, +2 or +3 to your attack rolls (not sure if damage rolls as well) of spells, and an amazing Rod of the Pact Keeper and Robe of Archmagi lets you add similar bonus to the DC of your spells (mighty powerful items).
The things that apply to Dispel Magic and Counterspell are the ones that specifically state bonus to "ability checks", and there's quite a lot of those:
Multiclass Warlock enthusiast.
I'd probable agree about being OP, but I'd be willing to argue about it over a beer. :)
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
This is what I am talking about!!!! The Alchemist in the UA Artificer that was introduce back in Jan 2017 felt more like Alchemist than the one in the Artificer Revisited UA. The new one has a pet homunculus (that in my opinion is useless) and 2 additional subclass features that for the most part but do nothing but expand upon the Alchemist's "SPELLCASTING" ability. I want an Alchemist that has features that has something that deals with alchemy and not a pet or anything that improves spellcasting.
I agree that the wands do nothing for the Artillerist. Crafting any good wand will require the character to be at least 9th level.
With that being said, I have no issues with the Alchemist being a subclass for the Artificer. They both create things. The Alchemist just specializes in crafting potions.
Downtime crafting shouldn't be the only good thing about the Alchemist. The revisited Alchemist has a pet and advantages to spellcasting. Nothing to do with Alchemy.
NO!!!! Why is everyone going back to spellcasting with the Alchemist? And why would you add a negative when trying to assist allies?
The alchemist is about making potions and using those to aid and support yourself and your allies. Requiring the player to use a tool kit (uncorking a beaker to cast stinking cloud) or flair (drinking a potion that has a consistency of mud when they cast a alter self) when they are casting a spell isn't a useful feature. It hinders a player and forces them to use imagination. The vast majority of RPG players already have an imagination, and if for some reason a player loses all of their stuff (put in jail or robbed), they can't cast spells and spellcasting is a major part of the class.
Direct quote from the Artificer Revisited UA...
"Tools Required - You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus — specifically, Thieves’ Tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature. You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of these tools. After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus."
So, as I stated above, if an Artificer is robbed or they are put in jail they will be unable to use their spellcasting ability. And until they get their stuff back or get access to some tools, a wizard without their spellbook would be more useful.
I think the problem some folks are having isn't a lack of imagination (imagination's a given with a game like DnD) I think it's some of us expected WotC to keep some of the crunchier elements of the last Artificer iteration, only to find that they were removed either partly or wholly and replaced either with fluff (you use your tools to cast spells) or with features that are just bland, worse versions of features that other classes have (Arcane Armament, both subclass' level 6 abilites that add your Intelligence modifier to a limited number of your spells).
I appreciate that there's things folks are liking, and I appreciate that in certain areas there have been steps taken forward, but in some regards steps were taken backward as well, I (and apparently others) feel...
I dunno. I'm trying to be fair, and I'm trying to put together feedback that encompasses more than just my own preferences, but I'd be lying if I said I liked where this class was at. I guess right now it's wait and see what the next UA brings...
On a scale of Crunch to Fluff I lean farther on the fluff side of things. If I wanted crunch I'd play Warhammer, Descent or some other battle simulator.
That being said, I do think there or some oddities that could be resolved, which I have already discussed within this thread and much if what Jeremy Crawford has discussed I like the direction. If you have listens to the Dragon+ YouTube chat with him, I recommend. He goes into depth on things that will likely change and added. For example, Arcane Armaments will more than likely be relegated to a subclass and something else will replace it at level 5.
In the D&D Beyond YouTube video "The New Artificer In Dungeons & Dragons' Unearthed Arcana" at around the 1:35 mark, Jeremy Crawford states that they channeled the Artificer as it originally appeared in the World of Eberron and they are also channeling many things that were in D&D for many years.
The problem I have is that everything that I have read or watched, mentions how the Artificer Revisited has that Eberron feel to it. D&D isn't just the World of Eberron. D&D is made up of thousands of world, whether they are Official WotC D&D worlds or the homebrew worlds like the one seen on Critical Role. So why would they make the Artificer feel like it came from Eberron?
I understand that no class is perfect, but like you said they went backwards with the Artificer. Infusions and the homunculus both came from the Artificer is 3.5's Eberron Campaign Setting. The Mechanical Servant from the UA Artificer didn't really fit and it seems like others didn't care for it as well, so why bring in the homunculus? And infusion are only temporary items and the advantages that they give the player is broken. A +1 returning weapon and a +1 shield or armor at 2nd level is overpowered in my opinion.
My biggest complaint about the revisit is that everything is literally spellcasting. Everything. I like the Artillerist but it requires the smith's tools to magical summon a medium sized turret, as if you were summoning a lesser or greater demon. What about during downtime, the Artillerist tinkers away and comes up with plans for a new turret design. He builds the turret and tests it, once complete he magically causes the turret to reduce in size and collapse in on itself making the turret look like a mundane item the size of a deck of cards. To use it, he throws the mundane item out while chanting some words. When the turret lands, it begins to enlarge and transforms into the turret. This explanation of summoning the turret is better than saying I pullout my smithing hammer and strike it on the ground causing a turret to appear.
They try to say that the Artificer isn't about magic and casting spells, but everything that is discussed about it is magic and casting spells.
Jeremy Crawford in the same video that I mentioned above states that the beginning of the video that the Artificer Revisited is meant to have more versatility than any other class in the game. Why?
@grizzlebub I can appreciate that, I just think that (for me at least) it just needs a little more *oomph*, especially at the early levels.
I've had those videos loaded up but haven't had a chance to watch them yet (thanks, school...). When I can, hopefully that will give me a better idea of where to focus my thoughts.
@marine2874 your wizard friend will be stuck without focus or component pouch and with only spells that do not have "M" in them. I dont think your wizard will like it either as most if not all damage dealers will be turned off. Sorry but your argument is lacking since all spellcasters are in the same boat. You still have infusions to help out. The same way clerics have still channel divinity.
Seriously if your goal is to always have an out if taken to prisons. Then i think you are missing the point of being jailed. Being jailed should never be a walk in the park. If it was then the fear of consequences would be severely diminished.
My players for exemples fear the capital city prison. Because it has magic dempeners as well as stregth sapping chains. They know that if they get taken in to that one they may never see the light of day ever again. And that is only 2 of the devices inside. They fear the xray vision of a warlock warden who will just see thru them if they try to hide thieves tools or anything to help out by eating it.
Those are very real consequences to being a wanted bad guy. Now if i remove these because of players wanting an out to the prison... Then whats the point of the prison if anyone can get in or out that easily ?
Seems to me like you are thinking only players have classes and the rest of the world just suck at everything. That to me is giving too much advantages to the players for next to no rewards for great role play.
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just saying also to others... By discussions it feels like you want more stuff at low levels because you know youll never higher levels.
My cousin thinks like that. He always think whats the best multiclass since ill never get beyond level 8 in a campaign. Cant blame him for that one since it takes almost a full year to level up to 20. But asking all features at low level because of that is ludicrous.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
For the record, I don't want them to take away the fluff, I just want them to add something more that isn't so fluff-dependent. I can't remember if I mentioned it here or not, but I think one way they could do it is re-tune Spell-Storing Item and move it to lower levels, give it some sort of scaling for higher level play, and maybe add a replacement feature that, if it can't be something new, at least give it a meaningful twist.
They did mention that there is a high likelihood that spell storing will be brought to a lower level, now how low they didn't specify.
Personally I think they should also add infusions that are subclass dependent. Maybe infusions that can be applied to turrets, or bring back the alchemist's bag as an infusion just for the alchemist (they did say this was likely as well).
@DnDPaladin I don't think anyone is asking for all the features to be at low level (at least, I'm not) but I do think it needs something more at early levels that isn't mostly fluff. It's been mentioned that Arcane Armament might be moved to a subclass and replaced with something else, perhaps that might be an opportunity to see something with more of a unique twist to the class (doesn't have to be "ZOMG NEW!" just something a little different).
The point I was making about the Artificer losing their ability to cast spells is because they need a tool or infusion item in order to cast spells. Any other spellcaster has the ability to cast spells without a focus or materials. They still have verbal (saying words) and somatic (gestures) to cast a spell. As for damage dealers, the majority of damage cantrips do not require a material component, only verbal and somatic and there are other lower level damaging spells that do not require a material component. As for infusion, you need a specific item in order for the infusion to work and I don't see how a DM would allow a player (who is in jail)to use a pair of boots that were infused to be "Boots of the Winding Path" to cast any spell that doesn't have anything to do with movement.
Jail and prison are 2 completely different things. Yes, a prison will have been warded to prevent the use of magic and any other number of enchantments that prevent escape. That is because a prison is designed to hold a large number of people of all backgrounds and types. But a jail is not designed to hold a large number of people. And that jail may not have any wards or enchantments placed on it. But this is not the point.
The point that I am making is that the Artificer Revisited relies heavily on spellcasting to do almost anything. The original UA Artificer did not rely heavily on spellcasting but instead the ability crafting magic items and subclasses did not rely heavily on spellcasting as well.
The Magical Tinkering ability/feature is fluff. In my opinion it doesn't bring anything meaningful to the class. To me Arcane Armament limits the players ability to use a normal or ranged melee attack. That ability/feature guarantees that one of the characters infusions will be an enhanced weapon or returning weapon, until they can get their hands on a magical weapon. As it is not until the 6th level that you can have more than 2 infused items.
@Marine 2874 They're probably putting more focus on the Eberron setting because they'll be adding the class to the Eberron source book. With that said, I think it might be a good idea for them to take a step back from that and keep a more setting-general flavor to it.
I know some other people like it, but I don't care for the homunculus any more than I cared for the mechanical servant. I would like to see the Infusions have more unique effects to them rather than number increases, but I'm coming at that from more of a flavor/utility standpoint than any sort of numbers game.
I'm not sure why they placed such emphasis on versatility (is there something I'm missing from the earlier editions here?). Personally I'm fine with it having versatility as a class, but they should take care not to make it too general when they do so.
@Grizzlebub I've been wondering about that with the Infusions as well. I know when they were doing an UA for Warlock invocations they toyed around with having subclass specific invocations and later decided against that, but maybe that's something that could work well with the Artificer instead. I did like the Alchemist Bag in the previous version, I just thought it needed some tweaking. I would love if they brought that back as an infusion or as a choice between that and the homcunulus.
Odds are, if you use one of your infusions, you will have a magic weapon way before any other party member. I used Returning Weapon on my Spear, and Enhanced Weapon on our fighter's longsword. My other Infusion was Replicate Item (Goggles of Night) since I was plaing a Mark of Making human in Eberron an wanted Darkvision. Once we get the fighter a magic weapon, I'll swap buy a Hand Crossbow and swap Enhanced Weapon to that. I'll swap Returning Weapon over to Replicate Item (Bag of Holding). I plan to take Crossbow Expert at 4th level. That will give me 2 attacks/round with the hand crossbow (Action & Bonus Action), 3 attacks when I hit 5th. Each will get the bonus damage from my Arcane Weapon spell if I can keep it up . . .
The fact you can change 1 Infusion when you level is sweet.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
@Marine2874 Pardon me, I didn't see your second comment. I saw Magical Tinkering as being more like one of the utility cantrips like Prestidigitation or Druidcraft and was planning on suggesting they make it into one for the Artificer Spell List, though someone else (Grizzlebub I believe) suggested adding additional functionality to it by allowing one of the items made with it to be used as a rudimentary spellcasting focus, which I think would make it more meaningful and am planning on making that recommendation as well. As for Arcane Armaments, yeah, I didn't like it either. Unless they add some sort of additional functionality to make up for that, I'd rather they drop the fluff and just make it a normal Extra Attack.
My DM has allowed me a Magical Tinker ability to create a Trigger/Detonator. When tapped, it counts down frpm a number you can set to a maximum or 25. When it hits 0, it creates a spark capable of lighting an oil soak rag. Each number of the countdown is 1 second. So the countdown can be set to up to 25 seconds.
Last session, I dropped a copper piece I'd put my trigger on into a barrel of oil after activating it and ran . . .
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!