Oh. I mean, artificer is weird in how spells work for them, but it makes narrative sense to me. Those are spells that a magic invention could do, and the artificer can pick and choose what inventions they have made in their downtime.
The Artificer is the 1st half-caster that is spellcaster 1st and combat 2nd. However, if (when>) they take Arcane Armaments away from all Artificers and give it to the Battle Smith only, what spellcastign we have will not be enough to make up for the loss in my opinion.
I can't really make comments until the finalized version of the Artificer goes live, but the lack of unique (to the artificer) spells and the lack of martial prowess for artificer's other than the Battle Smith makes me doughtful at this time.
To me, at this time, the artificer is a one trick pony based on the Arcane Weapon spell (similar to the way the warlock was with Eldritch Blast.
Just my 2 cents.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
And the artificer should only be a martial class second if thats what you want. Arcane weapon is a spell designed to let them do that. The artificer could also be a support class first (healing spells, alchemist abilities, giving infusions to others), and a spellcaster second. They are not supposed to be a spellcaster first, by any means. Unless you mean cantrips, which i guess makes sense.
I myself was thinking a reworked Spell-Storing Item would be a good candidate for being moved to 10th level, though that would in turn require a replacement feature for 18th level...
Level 10 spell storing. At the end of a long rest, you may infuse an item with magic. When you do this, choose 1 artificer spell you know of 1st level or lower. While holding this item, you may cast this spell at any point without expending a spell slot until the beginning of your next long rest, a number of times equal to your artificer level / 4.
Level 18 spell storing. You may choose 1 artificer spell of 2nd level or below to store in an item. You may cast this spell a number of times equal to your INT modifier*2. By spending 10 minutes with tools you are proficient in, you may change this spell to another artificer spell of 2nd level or lower.
honestly right cantrip for the job is a GREAT feature, it just really isnt a 10th level feature. It would work better as a 5th level feature, because at the point that you get it, you most likely arent using cantrips to their full degree, unless you are an artillerist, but even then you have the wands to already switch out cantrips. If it was ANY cantrip in the game then id be more inclined to agree, because then you get the promised versatility, but the only subclass that gets any use of it now as is is Alchemist, who really is only going to pick poison spray and acid splash to capitalize on their subclass, because that is the ones they have chosen to specialize in instead of a general elemental magic plus. Also, artificers should get mending for free. Every subclass revolves around using mending to heal their companion thing, and it feels unfair for that to take up a cantrip slot.
Similar to the plan I have proposed before, hear me out: (Firstly I would make subclasses give features at 3,3,6,6,14)
1. Move Right Cantrip for the Job to level 1 granting two flexible Cantrips, and never move to 3/4 Cantrips known. Matched with Magical Tinkering/Identify & Detect Magic at level 1. And something that makes crafting a core feature of Artificer, eg. Work through long rests without exhaustion or using spell slots to extend hours.
2. Move Spellcasting to here like every other half caster (no Cantrips like every other half caster as you already have them) Matched with Infuse Items which might include SSI in 2017 version as a Choosable Infuse.
5. Either handled by the power spike in Infusions and Spells or grant SSI here or something defensive like Arcane Armor / Pet (I’d still put all those options in Infusions)
6. In subclass either Extra Attack or Dual Cantrip. (Cast an Artificer cantrip as bonus action after using cantrip) Matched with another feature that is more theme defining, like Arcane jolt or Acid spells +int.
My highest level artificer, at this time, is 8th level. I have 4 artificer of which 8th level is my highest level to date.
Since creation, I have never been tempted to change a cantrip and if I had, doing so at level up would have beenok. In my opinion, the 10th level ability of the Right tool for the Job is the absolute worst ability WotC has ever put out and I include Beastmaster Ranger abilities in that.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I think it is a mind set change, you don’t need to optimise which Cantrips you cast for weaknesses etc. I am thinking more like you walk into a city pop on minor illusion and prestidigitation for the day. It just feels free and could help facilitate some RP moments without feeling a need.
It makes total sense that artificers get spellcasting at level 1 to me. Without it, you would have potentially the WORST 1st level in the entire game. It would be like wizard except you don't get 1st level spells at 1st level. Instead, you are completely devoted to cantrips (which, by design, are less useful than weapons, unless it's Eldritch Blast), or weapons, forcing you to put points into DEX or STR to do anything with them. With spells as an artificer, you have arcane weapon to improve your fighting, or cure wounds if you want to heal, as well as a multitude of other spells i can't remember right now. Paladin and Ranger, if you remove their spells, still have stuff they are good at (well, paladin anyways). Classes aren't templates to insert other classes on. Artificer is not a normal half caster, they get more use out of their spells than paladin or ranger does. Also, considering there are 4 different crafting systems in 5e right now, they are not going to make a main class centered around using it as a feature, more a plus if you use it, like with your tool proficiencies.
right cantrip for the job is great in concept and terrible at the level it is. Every subclass substitutes the need for it by that point. With alchemist, if you don't have acid splash, poison spray, and mending, you are not optimizing for your subclass. With artillerist, you have a better version of this ability at level 6. With battle mage, you are probably not using cantrips (except mending) at this point, considering that arcane weapon is better at dealing the same kinds of damage you would with the cantrips (as it should, considering it expends a spell slot, but by this point you probably don't need to worry about that considering you have a healthy amount and you can have your iron defender use defensive pounce and help to avoid losing concentration). It would be useful at lower levels, giving you more utility with your cantrips, but at this point you have made it pretty much worthless. I would compare it to Foe Slayer from the ranger, it is nice in concept but it is WAY too high a level for what it is. If it allowed you any cantrip, or if you knew more cantrips in the first place, then i would see the value. Also the artificer cantrip scaling is stupid. You have 2 cantrips for 9 levels, 3 cantrips for 4 levels, and 4 cantrips for the rest. That is just weird, and seems lopsided to me.
Right Cantrip for the Job is blatantly overpowered. No matter how you look at it, cantrips are still spells. We are just encouraged to flavor spells as some sort of contraption when playing an Artificer. Wizards are supposed to be the masters of the arcane and they only get 5 cantrips (without any feats). Cantrips are supposed to represent those spells that have become second nature after extensive practice. The same should be said for the Artificer. If you are going to flavor your spells as some sort of contraption, then the Artificer cantrips should be a permanent contraption. Not something that can be taken apart and reconfigured to produce the effects of a different cantrip.
It is not overpowered. first of all, sorcerers are the ones who specialize in cantrips, not wizards (sorcerers have the most in the game), and even then, how is it overpowered in gameplay terms? the artificer clearly goes against normal spellcasting lore, this is actually not that OP of an ability, especially considering they are a half caster.
Right cantrip for the job is underpowered where it is, but i would imagine it as being able to take apart your old cantrip items and alter them to become new cantrips. Like, a firearm looking thing for firebolt, you take it apart reverse the polarities or something, and it now casts frostbite.
Right Cantrip for the Job is blatantly overpowered. No matter how you look at it, cantrips are still spells. We are just encouraged to flavor spells as some sort of contraption when playing an Artificer. Wizards are supposed to be the masters of the arcane and they only get 5 cantrips (without any feats). Cantrips are supposed to represent those spells that have become second nature after extensive practice. The same should be said for the Artificer. If you are going to flavor your spells as some sort of contraption, then the Artificer cantrips should be a permanent contraption. Not something that can be taken apart and reconfigured to produce the effects of a different cantrip.
The feature's description doesn't say you're taking it apart. It says that you get the ability to have the right tool for the situation you find yourself in. In other words, this feature treats the artificer cantrip list as a much bigger toolbox that you can take tools out of and put in your "tool belt", which is your list of cantrips known. Also this is at 10th level, where leveled spells do most of the heavy lifting.
I know what the features says. I am merely stating what others in the past have stated in this thread and what Jeremy Crawford has said in youtube videos. The feature also says....
"Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can replace one of the artificer cantrips you know with another cantrip from the artificer spell list."
No matter how you try explain it, you are still replacing one cantrip (a spell) with another. It doesn't matter if the feature was available at 18th or 20th level, the ability to replace a cantrip with another after a short or long rest is overpowered. No matter if you flavor it as pulling a different tool out of a "bigger toolbox" and putting it on your "tool belt" or taking apart a contraption and putting back together in such a way that it simulates the effects of a different spell. The feature is overpowered.
How is it overpowered. Tell me how it is overpowered. All you have said is that it is overpowered, you have not provided an explanation outside of the lore of spellcasting, which the artificer is already blatantly ignoring. So, in specific gameplay terms, with examples, how is the feature overpowered. Not compared to any other class, not compared to the idea of what other classes are, not compared to anything except specific gameplay terms. How is it overpowered.
It is not overpowered. first of all, sorcerers are the ones who specialize in cantrips, not wizards (sorcerers have the most in the game), and even then, how is it overpowered in gameplay terms? the artificer clearly goes against normal spellcasting lore, this is actually not that OP of an ability, especially considering they are a half caster.
Actually the Warlock with Pact of the Tome has the most cantrips (7). The sorcerer doesn't get its magic from book learning like the Wizard. The sorcerer's magic comes from an outside source that has affected them in one way or another. And, the sorcerer only know 15 spells, while a wizard has access to hundreds. So, my statement "Wizards are supposed to be the masters of the arcane", was correct. It wasn't about who knows the most cantrips.
Cantrips are supposed to be permanent spells that do not require a spell slot to cast them. Hence why they are not that powerful and the caster only knows a handful of them. The ability to swap them after a short or long rest, ignores the very definition and idea of a cantrip. Most players take time to decide which cantrips would work best for their character. This feature "The Right Cantrip for the Job", means that the player no longer has to think about what cantrip would work best for their character as they can just change it after a short or long rest.
You (like others) are still looking at the artificer as a purely Eberron perspective. That is why my disappointment for the class centers it's entire design from Eberron (yes I know the Artificer in game sense originated from Eberron). There are other worlds besides Eberron and those artificers may produce their magic in similar ways as wizards. That is why I felt a more neutral/generic base-class and more specialized subclasses would make the Artificer class playable in other worlds.
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Oh. I mean, artificer is weird in how spells work for them, but it makes narrative sense to me. Those are spells that a magic invention could do, and the artificer can pick and choose what inventions they have made in their downtime.
The Artificer is the 1st half-caster that is spellcaster 1st and combat 2nd. However, if (when>) they take Arcane Armaments away from all Artificers and give it to the Battle Smith only, what spellcastign we have will not be enough to make up for the loss in my opinion.
I can't really make comments until the finalized version of the Artificer goes live, but the lack of unique (to the artificer) spells and the lack of martial prowess for artificer's other than the Battle Smith makes me doughtful at this time.
To me, at this time, the artificer is a one trick pony based on the Arcane Weapon spell (similar to the way the warlock was with Eldritch Blast.
Just my 2 cents.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Arcane armament 6th level feature for the battle smith, right cantrip for the job at level 5, something better at level 10
And the artificer should only be a martial class second if thats what you want. Arcane weapon is a spell designed to let them do that. The artificer could also be a support class first (healing spells, alchemist abilities, giving infusions to others), and a spellcaster second. They are not supposed to be a spellcaster first, by any means. Unless you mean cantrips, which i guess makes sense.
I myself was thinking a reworked Spell-Storing Item would be a good candidate for being moved to 10th level, though that would in turn require a replacement feature for 18th level...
Level 10 spell storing. At the end of a long rest, you may infuse an item with magic. When you do this, choose 1 artificer spell you know of 1st level or lower. While holding this item, you may cast this spell at any point without expending a spell slot until the beginning of your next long rest, a number of times equal to your artificer level / 4.
Level 18 spell storing. You may choose 1 artificer spell of 2nd level or below to store in an item. You may cast this spell a number of times equal to your INT modifier*2. By spending 10 minutes with tools you are proficient in, you may change this spell to another artificer spell of 2nd level or lower.
honestly right cantrip for the job is a GREAT feature, it just really isnt a 10th level feature. It would work better as a 5th level feature, because at the point that you get it, you most likely arent using cantrips to their full degree, unless you are an artillerist, but even then you have the wands to already switch out cantrips. If it was ANY cantrip in the game then id be more inclined to agree, because then you get the promised versatility, but the only subclass that gets any use of it now as is is Alchemist, who really is only going to pick poison spray and acid splash to capitalize on their subclass, because that is the ones they have chosen to specialize in instead of a general elemental magic plus. Also, artificers should get mending for free. Every subclass revolves around using mending to heal their companion thing, and it feels unfair for that to take up a cantrip slot.
Similar to the plan I have proposed before, hear me out: (Firstly I would make subclasses give features at 3,3,6,6,14)
1. Move Right Cantrip for the Job to level 1 granting two flexible Cantrips, and never move to 3/4 Cantrips known. Matched with Magical Tinkering/Identify & Detect Magic at level 1. And something that makes crafting a core feature of Artificer, eg. Work through long rests without exhaustion or using spell slots to extend hours.
2. Move Spellcasting to here like every other half caster (no Cantrips like every other half caster as you already have them) Matched with Infuse Items which might include SSI in 2017 version as a Choosable Infuse.
5. Either handled by the power spike in Infusions and Spells or grant SSI here or something defensive like Arcane Armor / Pet (I’d still put all those options in Infusions)
6. In subclass either Extra Attack or Dual Cantrip. (Cast an Artificer cantrip as bonus action after using cantrip) Matched with another feature that is more theme defining, like Arcane jolt or Acid spells +int.
10+15. Superior Attunement.
My highest level artificer, at this time, is 8th level. I have 4 artificer of which 8th level is my highest level to date.
Since creation, I have never been tempted to change a cantrip and if I had, doing so at level up would have beenok. In my opinion, the 10th level ability of the Right tool for the Job is the absolute worst ability WotC has ever put out and I include Beastmaster Ranger abilities in that.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
If they added a wider selection of cantrip as you mentioned, then the ability might be worthwhile . . . maybe.
In you playtesting, has anyone every changed one of their artificer cantrips?
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I think it is a mind set change, you don’t need to optimise which Cantrips you cast for weaknesses etc. I am thinking more like you walk into a city pop on minor illusion and prestidigitation for the day. It just feels free and could help facilitate some RP moments without feeling a need.
It makes total sense that artificers get spellcasting at level 1 to me. Without it, you would have potentially the WORST 1st level in the entire game. It would be like wizard except you don't get 1st level spells at 1st level. Instead, you are completely devoted to cantrips (which, by design, are less useful than weapons, unless it's Eldritch Blast), or weapons, forcing you to put points into DEX or STR to do anything with them. With spells as an artificer, you have arcane weapon to improve your fighting, or cure wounds if you want to heal, as well as a multitude of other spells i can't remember right now. Paladin and Ranger, if you remove their spells, still have stuff they are good at (well, paladin anyways). Classes aren't templates to insert other classes on. Artificer is not a normal half caster, they get more use out of their spells than paladin or ranger does. Also, considering there are 4 different crafting systems in 5e right now, they are not going to make a main class centered around using it as a feature, more a plus if you use it, like with your tool proficiencies.
right cantrip for the job is great in concept and terrible at the level it is. Every subclass substitutes the need for it by that point. With alchemist, if you don't have acid splash, poison spray, and mending, you are not optimizing for your subclass. With artillerist, you have a better version of this ability at level 6. With battle mage, you are probably not using cantrips (except mending) at this point, considering that arcane weapon is better at dealing the same kinds of damage you would with the cantrips (as it should, considering it expends a spell slot, but by this point you probably don't need to worry about that considering you have a healthy amount and you can have your iron defender use defensive pounce and help to avoid losing concentration). It would be useful at lower levels, giving you more utility with your cantrips, but at this point you have made it pretty much worthless. I would compare it to Foe Slayer from the ranger, it is nice in concept but it is WAY too high a level for what it is. If it allowed you any cantrip, or if you knew more cantrips in the first place, then i would see the value. Also the artificer cantrip scaling is stupid. You have 2 cantrips for 9 levels, 3 cantrips for 4 levels, and 4 cantrips for the rest. That is just weird, and seems lopsided to me.
Right Cantrip for the Job is blatantly overpowered. No matter how you look at it, cantrips are still spells. We are just encouraged to flavor spells as some sort of contraption when playing an Artificer. Wizards are supposed to be the masters of the arcane and they only get 5 cantrips (without any feats). Cantrips are supposed to represent those spells that have become second nature after extensive practice. The same should be said for the Artificer. If you are going to flavor your spells as some sort of contraption, then the Artificer cantrips should be a permanent contraption. Not something that can be taken apart and reconfigured to produce the effects of a different cantrip.
It is not overpowered. first of all, sorcerers are the ones who specialize in cantrips, not wizards (sorcerers have the most in the game), and even then, how is it overpowered in gameplay terms? the artificer clearly goes against normal spellcasting lore, this is actually not that OP of an ability, especially considering they are a half caster.
Right cantrip for the job is underpowered where it is, but i would imagine it as being able to take apart your old cantrip items and alter them to become new cantrips. Like, a firearm looking thing for firebolt, you take it apart reverse the polarities or something, and it now casts frostbite.
I know what the features says. I am merely stating what others in the past have stated in this thread and what Jeremy Crawford has said in youtube videos. The feature also says....
"Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can replace one of the artificer cantrips you know with another cantrip from the artificer spell list."
No matter how you try explain it, you are still replacing one cantrip (a spell) with another. It doesn't matter if the feature was available at 18th or 20th level, the ability to replace a cantrip with another after a short or long rest is overpowered. No matter if you flavor it as pulling a different tool out of a "bigger toolbox" and putting it on your "tool belt" or taking apart a contraption and putting back together in such a way that it simulates the effects of a different spell. The feature is overpowered.
How is it overpowered. Tell me how it is overpowered. All you have said is that it is overpowered, you have not provided an explanation outside of the lore of spellcasting, which the artificer is already blatantly ignoring. So, in specific gameplay terms, with examples, how is the feature overpowered. Not compared to any other class, not compared to the idea of what other classes are, not compared to anything except specific gameplay terms. How is it overpowered.
Actually the Warlock with Pact of the Tome has the most cantrips (7). The sorcerer doesn't get its magic from book learning like the Wizard. The sorcerer's magic comes from an outside source that has affected them in one way or another. And, the sorcerer only know 15 spells, while a wizard has access to hundreds. So, my statement "Wizards are supposed to be the masters of the arcane", was correct. It wasn't about who knows the most cantrips.
Cantrips are supposed to be permanent spells that do not require a spell slot to cast them. Hence why they are not that powerful and the caster only knows a handful of them. The ability to swap them after a short or long rest, ignores the very definition and idea of a cantrip. Most players take time to decide which cantrips would work best for their character. This feature "The Right Cantrip for the Job", means that the player no longer has to think about what cantrip would work best for their character as they can just change it after a short or long rest.
You (like others) are still looking at the artificer as a purely Eberron perspective. That is why my disappointment for the class centers it's entire design from Eberron (yes I know the Artificer in game sense originated from Eberron). There are other worlds besides Eberron and those artificers may produce their magic in similar ways as wizards. That is why I felt a more neutral/generic base-class and more specialized subclasses would make the Artificer class playable in other worlds.