So shall we pickup where we left off our conversation? What do people think of the changes in Artificer Released?
I have only skimmed and checked Subclasses mostly. Flash of Genius looks fun, making Artificer a better support quite similar to Bardic Inspiration. But some of the subclasses do still disappoint, so I'll probably make a Arutha's Artificer which does take even more changes suggested in this thread in the next few days.
1. Alchemist's Random potion does look great and a nice compromise between 2017 and not as controversial as Homonculous ended up being. I do still think they dropped the ball making the Alchemist too much of a healer in later levels and would have appreciated the choice of heal or sickness spells.
2. Most disappointingly Artillerist still has its spell focus, leaving us without a nice grounded tech option for crossbow and turret. The turret though is nicely buffed, lasts 1 hour, can be a tiny turret meaning you can carry it, and at higher levels can summon two using the same action. Still a main action though but very good buffs. Also the damage got buffed a lot to offset loss of Extra attack, now we should do a spell plus 2d8, 3d8 at 9th and 6d8 at 15th. Also not a bad capstone if first multiclassing for EA. Just wish they removed the wand.
3. Battle Smith looks least changed as it was made most recently, likely they were quite happy with it. This is likely the best to keep as the default option for Artificer since Int Attacks are quite iconic.
For main class Flash of Genius stands out as does the new Right Tool for the Job, which helps build Improvised tools as we suggested, but I cant see any Long Rest cantrips any more. Also the 10, 14 & 20 seem nicely crafting related to satisfy everyone. As well a SSI at 11th level for 1st and 2nd level spells, i'd still allow 3rd for rule of cool power abilities like self hasted rogues but I see WotC really wanted to restrain that. Overall I think improved will need a few more reads and deeper dive into the expanded replicate infusions to have a full opinion if this is best of all options so far.
Alchemist random potion is severely underpowered comparitively. Also, as an artillerist, i think the idea is that you cast cantrips out of it, dealing an extra 1d8 damage, or 2d10+1d8 fire damage every turn with firebolt, then fire your cannon. Artillerist got SERIOUSLY buffed, and i actually really like the new level 5 (just flavor it as a gun, it was clearly intended to possibly be favored that way).
I love what they did with battle smith and artillerist. they ****ed over alchemist, and basically gave them "homunculus but worse because you dont get nearly as many free ones, and the free ones are randomized. and you cant use them to deal some extra damage, or to absorb some damage"
Alchemist is perfectly fine at higher levels, actually. once they reach level 9, id say that they work totally well. But before then? They are by far the worst artificer subclass.
So shall we pickup where we left off our conversation? What do people think of the changes in Artificer Released?
I have only skimmed and checked Subclasses mostly. Flash of Genius looks fun, making Artificer a better support quite similar to Bardic Inspiration. But some of the subclasses do still disappoint, so I'll probably make a Arutha's Artificer which does take even more changes suggested in this thread in the next few days.
1. Alchemist's Random potion does look great and a nice compromise between 2017 and not as controversial as Homonculous ended up being. I do still think they dropped the ball making the Alchemist too much of a healer in later levels and would have appreciated the choice of heal or sickness spells.
2. Most disappointingly Artillerist still has its spell focus, leaving us without a nice grounded tech option for crossbow and turret. The turret though is nicely buffed, lasts 1 hour, can be a tiny turret meaning you can carry it, and at higher levels can summon two using the same action. Still a main action though but very good buffs. Also the damage got buffed a lot to offset loss of Extra attack, now we should do a spell plus 2d8, 3d8 at 9th and 6d8 at 15th. Also not a bad capstone if first multiclassing for EA. Just wish they removed the wand.
3. Battle Smith looks least changed as it was made most recently, likely they were quite happy with it. This is likely the best to keep as the default option for Artificer since Int Attacks are quite iconic.
For main class Flash of Genius stands out as does the new Right Tool for the Job, which helps build Improvised tools as we suggested, but I cant see any Long Rest cantrips any more. Also the 10, 14 & 20 seem nicely crafting related to satisfy everyone. As well a SSI at 11th level for 1st and 2nd level spells, i'd still allow 3rd for rule of cool power abilities like self hasted rogues but I see WotC really wanted to restrain that. Overall I think improved will need a few more reads and deeper dive into the expanded replicate infusions to have a full opinion if this is best of all options so far.
I made the mistake of pre-ordering. A mistake I now greatly regret. The fact they forced the racial changes on WGtE (Bait & Switch if I have ever seen or heard or it) now pisses me off. I have cancelled my DDB subscription simply because these changes have made my running of my Eberron campaign impracical via Campaigns without more work than I am willing to put in. My players are now no longer interested in the campaign I have been running since WGtE came out. Liek myself, they believe WotC, and their partners, are goign the way of WotC's 4E character builder website where they forced their changes on the players,
Right now the talk among my players is that they want to go back to a Pathfinder (not PF2 with is PF goen the way of 4E) and my running of a Iron Gods campaign.
After seeing what WotC did to the WGtE races via my purchase on DDB, one of my playershas applied to a refund on his pre-order and another has simply desiced not to buy the hard cover book locally.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
You missed the boat, Arutha. We've been discussing this since page 10 of the other Artificer thread. In summation:
1.) The Alchemist got turbo-bonernerfed. It has no combat capacity, severely diminished exploration/adventuring capacity, and reduced downtime crafting viability, primarily because idiots demanded that the entire class be built around potions, nothing but potions, everything potions, potions potions more potions potions additional potions potions potions POTIONS. So. We got an Alchemist with an "Experimental Elixir" ability that's almost strictly weaker than the homunculus was, a 'Homunculus' infusion that is strictly weaker than the old Alchemical Homunculus whilst also consuming more resources (a precious infusion slot), and ended up with a subclass that cannot effectively contribute to an adventuring party beyond what a basic, no-subclass-selected artificer could do until it gets to the levels where it gets free Lesser/Greater Restos.
2.) The artificer as a whole has lost its ability to effectively engage in martial/weapon combat, outside the Battlesmith. No crossbow proficiencies, no Arcane Weapon. No ability to make use of the magical weapons it can create on its own; the artificer is instead expected to give all of its infusions to other party members and then demand those party members haul the helpless artificer around like a sack of loot-sucking spuds. The Alchemist and Artillerist instead get weak spell-boosting abilities that in no way make up for the loss of Arcane Assault and Arcane Weapon. The artillerist is strictly weaker than an Evocation wizard until 15th level when it can double its cannon damage, and the alchemist is never effective outside of town beyond the extremely unfun and sharply limited role of "out of combat heal***** boi".
3.) On the flip side, the reintroduction of Magic Item Adept/Master/Savant allowing a gradual increase in attunement slots is very welcome, and Flash of Genius is an interesting and fitting ability that allows the artificer to squeak its team through tough spots. Infusion selection was improved, and the ability to craft any Uncommon or lesser item for half the cost and a quarter of the time is likely to be more broadly useful than the item-specific crafting discounts which were previously tied to subclass.
On the whole, discussion seems to agree that the artificer in general got a bit weaker but in acceptable ways. The Alchemist was unfairly overnerfed, and the Artillerist is in a weird spot, but the Battlesmith is excellent. The loss of Arcane Weapon is deeply confusing, the loss of Arcane Assault is deeply frustrating, the loss of Right Cantrip for the Job is both, and there's a lot of talk of homebrew fixes to get the class back to a point where people feel confident playing it.
The artillerists +1d8 is actually super powerful, and it works with cantrips, making its DPR an average of 25, which is pretty good. Please do not blame potions for WOTC inability to make a thematically interesting and appealing alchemist subclass (for the majority of people who wanted to play one) yurei. They SERIOUSLY buffed infusions, however, which I like.
I'm going to regret asking this, especially so far into the thread, but what exactly was everyone's problem with the homunculus? The original one, not the one that got released? Was it the acid spit? Just limit uses of that so that the homunculus can still exist and be useful in other ways (help action, buffs).
I understand why Arcane Armament was nerfed except for the Battlesmith, but I still think it was unnecessary. The only reason I can think of for why they nerfed Arcane Weapon was so the Battlesmith would have to either find a magic weapon through gameplay or using one of their infusion slots to use their feature.
I'm going to regret asking this, especially so far into the thread, but what exactly was everyone's problem with the homunculus? The original one, not the one that got released? Was it the acid spit? Just limit uses of that so that the homunculus can still exist and be useful in other ways (help action, buffs).
I think people (definitely not me) mostly just objected to every subclass having a pet or pet-like magical object. So Homunculus became an infusion, max infusions went up to 6, and Artillerists turrets are small or tiny instead of being medium.
I think people (definitely not me) mostly just objected to every subclass having a pet or pet-like magical object. So Homunculus became an infusion, max infusions went up to 6, and Artillerists turrets are small or tiny instead of being medium.
Aww, darn! There goes my idea of my gnome riding her turrets into battle.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yeah i had less a problem with a homunculus conceptually than have a problem with every artificer subclass seeming to require a "pet". However, I would have asked them to replace it with a feature that is actually useful.
I think people (definitely not me) mostly just objected to every subclass having a pet or pet-like magical object. So Homunculus became an infusion, max infusions went up to 6, and Artillerists turrets are small or tiny instead of being medium.
Aww, darn! There goes my idea of my gnome riding her turrets into battle.
It might still work though! Just not so much as "mounted." When ability checks are needed the turrets "stats" are solid 10s. That gives it a 10 in strength which gives it a carrying capacity of 150 lbs. Pulling capacity is 300 lbs. Both well above a gnome's average weight. Later on you could use some sort of chariot tied to two turrets to let them slowly drag up to 600 lbs.
I'm going to regret asking this, especially so far into the thread, but what exactly was everyone's problem with the homunculus? The original one, not the one that got released? Was it the acid spit? Just limit uses of that so that the homunculus can still exist and be useful in other ways (help action, buffs).
To me, the fact that there were no extra class features that interacted with the homunculus made the Alchemist feel unfinished, and kind of felt like it was just made because the people working on the UA realized they needed 2 subclasses for artificer so they took one class feature from the homunculus artificer they scrapped and some boring potion-themed class features and shoved them together.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Giant flaming rocks filled with tarrasques fall, everyone dies.
That was also it. Had the homunculus say, gotten more and better salves over time, I would have felt much better about it. It is for that reason why I do not mind the steel defender.
This is also the reason that despite how underwhelming it still is, the new Alchemist is(in my opinion) better since it at least knows what it wants to do, and has class features that build on that, instead of being an amalgemation of a few things that fit the word 'Alchemist'.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Giant flaming rocks filled with tarrasques fall, everyone dies.
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I did not mean at 5th level, i meant at 7th and 15th
I know what you meant. I was addressing the original feature from the 2017 UA which started Superior Attunement at 5th level.
oh, you said 8th
I missed the 8 key and hit 7.
oh, got it, thanks
So shall we pickup where we left off our conversation? What do people think of the changes in Artificer Released?
I have only skimmed and checked Subclasses mostly. Flash of Genius looks fun, making Artificer a better support quite similar to Bardic Inspiration. But some of the subclasses do still disappoint, so I'll probably make a Arutha's Artificer which does take even more changes suggested in this thread in the next few days.
1. Alchemist's Random potion does look great and a nice compromise between 2017 and not as controversial as Homonculous ended up being. I do still think they dropped the ball making the Alchemist too much of a healer in later levels and would have appreciated the choice of heal or sickness spells.
2. Most disappointingly Artillerist still has its spell focus, leaving us without a nice grounded tech option for crossbow and turret. The turret though is nicely buffed, lasts 1 hour, can be a tiny turret meaning you can carry it, and at higher levels can summon two using the same action. Still a main action though but very good buffs. Also the damage got buffed a lot to offset loss of Extra attack, now we should do a spell plus 2d8, 3d8 at 9th and 6d8 at 15th. Also not a bad capstone if first multiclassing for EA. Just wish they removed the wand.
3. Battle Smith looks least changed as it was made most recently, likely they were quite happy with it. This is likely the best to keep as the default option for Artificer since Int Attacks are quite iconic.
For main class Flash of Genius stands out as does the new Right Tool for the Job, which helps build Improvised tools as we suggested, but I cant see any Long Rest cantrips any more. Also the 10, 14 & 20 seem nicely crafting related to satisfy everyone. As well a SSI at 11th level for 1st and 2nd level spells, i'd still allow 3rd for rule of cool power abilities like self hasted rogues but I see WotC really wanted to restrain that. Overall I think improved will need a few more reads and deeper dive into the expanded replicate infusions to have a full opinion if this is best of all options so far.
Alchemist random potion is severely underpowered comparitively. Also, as an artillerist, i think the idea is that you cast cantrips out of it, dealing an extra 1d8 damage, or 2d10+1d8 fire damage every turn with firebolt, then fire your cannon. Artillerist got SERIOUSLY buffed, and i actually really like the new level 5 (just flavor it as a gun, it was clearly intended to possibly be favored that way).
I love what they did with battle smith and artillerist. they ****ed over alchemist, and basically gave them "homunculus but worse because you dont get nearly as many free ones, and the free ones are randomized. and you cant use them to deal some extra damage, or to absorb some damage"
Alchemist is perfectly fine at higher levels, actually. once they reach level 9, id say that they work totally well. But before then? They are by far the worst artificer subclass.
I made the mistake of pre-ordering. A mistake I now greatly regret. The fact they forced the racial changes on WGtE (Bait & Switch if I have ever seen or heard or it) now pisses me off. I have cancelled my DDB subscription simply because these changes have made my running of my Eberron campaign impracical via Campaigns without more work than I am willing to put in. My players are now no longer interested in the campaign I have been running since WGtE came out. Liek myself, they believe WotC, and their partners, are goign the way of WotC's 4E character builder website where they forced their changes on the players,
Right now the talk among my players is that they want to go back to a Pathfinder (not PF2 with is PF goen the way of 4E) and my running of a Iron Gods campaign.
After seeing what WotC did to the WGtE races via my purchase on DDB, one of my playershas applied to a refund on his pre-order and another has simply desiced not to buy the hard cover book locally.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
You missed the boat, Arutha. We've been discussing this since page 10 of the other Artificer thread. In summation:
1.) The Alchemist got turbo-bonernerfed. It has no combat capacity, severely diminished exploration/adventuring capacity, and reduced downtime crafting viability, primarily because idiots demanded that the entire class be built around potions, nothing but potions, everything potions, potions potions more potions potions additional potions potions potions POTIONS. So. We got an Alchemist with an "Experimental Elixir" ability that's almost strictly weaker than the homunculus was, a 'Homunculus' infusion that is strictly weaker than the old Alchemical Homunculus whilst also consuming more resources (a precious infusion slot), and ended up with a subclass that cannot effectively contribute to an adventuring party beyond what a basic, no-subclass-selected artificer could do until it gets to the levels where it gets free Lesser/Greater Restos.
2.) The artificer as a whole has lost its ability to effectively engage in martial/weapon combat, outside the Battlesmith. No crossbow proficiencies, no Arcane Weapon. No ability to make use of the magical weapons it can create on its own; the artificer is instead expected to give all of its infusions to other party members and then demand those party members haul the helpless artificer around like a sack of loot-sucking spuds. The Alchemist and Artillerist instead get weak spell-boosting abilities that in no way make up for the loss of Arcane Assault and Arcane Weapon. The artillerist is strictly weaker than an Evocation wizard until 15th level when it can double its cannon damage, and the alchemist is never effective outside of town beyond the extremely unfun and sharply limited role of "out of combat heal***** boi".
3.) On the flip side, the reintroduction of Magic Item Adept/Master/Savant allowing a gradual increase in attunement slots is very welcome, and Flash of Genius is an interesting and fitting ability that allows the artificer to squeak its team through tough spots. Infusion selection was improved, and the ability to craft any Uncommon or lesser item for half the cost and a quarter of the time is likely to be more broadly useful than the item-specific crafting discounts which were previously tied to subclass.
On the whole, discussion seems to agree that the artificer in general got a bit weaker but in acceptable ways. The Alchemist was unfairly overnerfed, and the Artillerist is in a weird spot, but the Battlesmith is excellent. The loss of Arcane Weapon is deeply confusing, the loss of Arcane Assault is deeply frustrating, the loss of Right Cantrip for the Job is both, and there's a lot of talk of homebrew fixes to get the class back to a point where people feel confident playing it.
Please do not contact or message me.
The artillerists +1d8 is actually super powerful, and it works with cantrips, making its DPR an average of 25, which is pretty good. Please do not blame potions for WOTC inability to make a thematically interesting and appealing alchemist subclass (for the majority of people who wanted to play one) yurei. They SERIOUSLY buffed infusions, however, which I like.
I'm going to regret asking this, especially so far into the thread, but what exactly was everyone's problem with the homunculus? The original one, not the one that got released? Was it the acid spit? Just limit uses of that so that the homunculus can still exist and be useful in other ways (help action, buffs).
I understand why Arcane Armament was nerfed except for the Battlesmith, but I still think it was unnecessary. The only reason I can think of for why they nerfed Arcane Weapon was so the Battlesmith would have to either find a magic weapon through gameplay or using one of their infusion slots to use their feature.
I think people (definitely not me) mostly just objected to every subclass having a pet or pet-like magical object. So Homunculus became an infusion, max infusions went up to 6, and Artillerists turrets are small or tiny instead of being medium.
Aww, darn! There goes my idea of my gnome riding her turrets into battle.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yeah i had less a problem with a homunculus conceptually than have a problem with every artificer subclass seeming to require a "pet". However, I would have asked them to replace it with a feature that is actually useful.
It might still work though! Just not so much as "mounted." When ability checks are needed the turrets "stats" are solid 10s. That gives it a 10 in strength which gives it a carrying capacity of 150 lbs. Pulling capacity is 300 lbs. Both well above a gnome's average weight. Later on you could use some sort of chariot tied to two turrets to let them slowly drag up to 600 lbs.
To me, the fact that there were no extra class features that interacted with the homunculus made the Alchemist feel unfinished, and kind of felt like it was just made because the people working on the UA realized they needed 2 subclasses for artificer so they took one class feature from the homunculus artificer they scrapped and some boring potion-themed class features and shoved them together.
Giant flaming rocks filled with tarrasques fall, everyone dies.
That was also it. Had the homunculus say, gotten more and better salves over time, I would have felt much better about it. It is for that reason why I do not mind the steel defender.
This is also the reason that despite how underwhelming it still is, the new Alchemist is(in my opinion) better since it at least knows what it wants to do, and has class features that build on that, instead of being an amalgemation of a few things that fit the word 'Alchemist'.
Giant flaming rocks filled with tarrasques fall, everyone dies.