No, actually I am not looking at it from an Eberron perspective. I don't know shit about Eberron. I am trying to look at it from the perspective of what an artificer, as defined in the class description, is. And that is a caster who casts spells from items they have created. Not needing to make permanent choices for cantrips is not an overpowered feature. At best, it is a quality of life improvement. What you are saying is like saying that warlocks in other settings do not cast spells from a patron. That goes against the definition of what a warlock is.
the warlock is OP because it regains spell slots on a short rest, something no other class in the game does. the barbarian at level 1 gets an ability that allows it to gain resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage, for a minute, and advantage on strength checks, something no other class in the game can do. The wizard spell list is way too big compared to the other classes spell lists, and has way too many exclusive spells, making it OP. The paladin has a class feature that runs on spell slots? thats op, because no one else has that as a class feature. The ranger can just IGNORE difficult terrain in certain situations? Thats so OP, difficult terrain is an area that is difficult to walk through, how is a ranger better than that on short distances. The sorcerer can regain spell slots with sorcery points? Thats op, gives them more spell slots than anyone else in the game. Fighter has the highest DPS of any class, ridiculously OP, as well as not just getting extra attack, but multiple extra attacks. Monk can attack as a bonus action at level 1? Op. Druid can completely change its statistics at second level? Op. Cleric can pretty much nullify an undead encounter at level 2, if the rolls are right, which is OP. Bard gets access to every spell list? That goes against what spell lists are supposed to be, which is OP. Rogue can deal SO MUCH extra damage on a turn its ridiculous, and they are too good at sneaking, as well as being able to dash as a bonus action, thats really OP. Artificer can switch out cantrips with other cantrips on rests? OP. I may have forgotten a class or two in this, but i hope i have made my point clear.
Cantrip - A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will, without using a spell slot and without being prepared in advanced. Repeated practice has fixed the spell in the caster's mind and infused the caster with the magic needed to produce the effect over and over. (PHB pg. 201)
The ability "The Right Cantrip for the Job" negates the very definition of a cantrip.
I never said or hinted that the warlock's spellcasting ability didn't come from their patron.
You said that the class description of the artificer was not what the artificer was in settings other than eberron, even though i was referring to an area of it that was not eberron specific. That was why I made that point. Artificers, by definition, cast their spells through items of their creation. Also, according to the description of the artificer, "They see magic as a complex system waiting to be decoded and controlled.". This comes from a paragraph not referring to eberron, but to artificers in general. Artificers are the masters of adaptability, which is why right cantrip for the job makes sense for them.
the warlock is OP because it regains spell slots on a short rest, something no other class in the game does. the barbarian at level 1 gets an ability that allows it to gain resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage, for a minute, and advantage on strength checks, something no other class in the game can do. The wizard spell list is way too big compared to the other classes spell lists, and has way too many exclusive spells, making it OP. The paladin has a class feature that runs on spell slots? thats op, because no one else has that as a class feature. The ranger can just IGNORE difficult terrain in certain situations? Thats so OP, difficult terrain is an area that is difficult to walk through, how is a ranger better than that on short distances. The sorcerer can regain spell slots with sorcery points? Thats op, gives them more spell slots than anyone else in the game. Fighter has the highest DPS of any class, ridiculously OP, as well as not just getting extra attack, but multiple extra attacks. Monk can attack as a bonus action at level 1? Op. Druid can completely change its statistics at second level? Op. Cleric can pretty much nullify an undead encounter at level 2, if the rolls are right, which is OP. Bard gets access to every spell list? That goes against what spell lists are supposed to be, which is OP. Rogue can deal SO MUCH extra damage on a turn its ridiculous, and they are too good at sneaking, as well as being able to dash as a bonus action, thats really OP. Artificer can switch out cantrips with other cantrips on rests? OP. I may have forgotten a class or two in this, but i hope i have made my point clear.
A warlock is not op because they only have a max of 4 spell slots. A barbarian's rage ends early if they are knocked unconscious or if their turn ends without attacking someone or take damage. The wizard's spell list represents their years of study. Paladin's already have a limited spellcasting ability. Ranger's are master's of their chosen terrains and ignoring difficult terrain fits their class. Sorcerer's have a limited number of sorcery points (that they regain after a long rest. Fighters by nature should have the highest DPS given their class. Clerics are the undead's natural enemy (and even then that ability is limited). Bard's steal from everyone so it is expected. Rogues are supposed to be sneaky and quick.
The 2019 Artificer by second level can create fake magic items that simulate the properties of real magic items (infusions). But the ability to swap cantrips (a spell that doesn't need preparation or a spell slot) after a short or long rest is still OP. The wizard who is supposed to be the master of the arcane doesn't even have that ability.
The 2019 artificer is all about creating temporary magic items and items that can cast spells.
I haven’t seen anyone agree with Marine on the strength of Right Cantrip for the Job, so it is not something to get frustrated about.
In my mind the term OP can only be applied to something that is vertical, deal more damage hits more people, not to something horizontal, ie have more options. Eg it is perfectly fine that a Wizard can cast Fly and Haste and Animate Weapon’s and Conjure Elemental, because he has to choose one at a time. In the same way it is fine if an Artificer effectively knows all his Cantrips because he still has to choose one at a time to cast.
I have also used the argument of each class expands one something that hasn’t been done before (otherwise it is dull as ****) by definition. It hasn’t worked previously for Marine so just know others understand this too.
And I think the issue here is that we still haven't come to terms with the fact that the Artificer isn't an ordinary caster. This is a half-caster that has spellcasting and cantrips right at Level 1, which is unprecedented in 5e. This is a class that can just "poof" magic items into existence after a long rest. This is a class that needs its focus in hand to cast any of its spells, even if it has no material components. This is a class that gets expertise in Thieves' Tools (one of the most useful tools in the game) for free with no decision on the player's part unlike the Rogue.
In short, this class breaks a lot of notions that have been set about spellcasting classes as a whole.
I feel that the way this artificer has been created it isn't a half-caster. It actually expands upon it's spellcasting ability in such a way that yes "it breaks a lot of notions that have been set about spellcasting classes as a whole" and other half-casters.
But everything that is said is all moot as the final version of the Artificer has already been decided and we will see it when Eberron: Rising from the Last War is released on November 19th.
Yeah it aint a half caster, it isnt supposed to be. It is its own thing. Also, infusions are not fake magic items. they are real ones. Not every class design is a cookie cutter of another one. An artificer is a half caster in spell slots only.
the warlock is OP because it regains spell slots on a short rest, something no other class in the game does. the barbarian at level 1 gets an ability that allows it to gain resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage, for a minute, and advantage on strength checks, something no other class in the game can do. The wizard spell list is way too big compared to the other classes spell lists, and has way too many exclusive spells, making it OP. The paladin has a class feature that runs on spell slots? thats op, because no one else has that as a class feature. The ranger can just IGNORE difficult terrain in certain situations? Thats so OP, difficult terrain is an area that is difficult to walk through, how is a ranger better than that on short distances. The sorcerer can regain spell slots with sorcery points? Thats op, gives them more spell slots than anyone else in the game. Fighter has the highest DPS of any class, ridiculously OP, as well as not just getting extra attack, but multiple extra attacks. Monk can attack as a bonus action at level 1? Op. Druid can completely change its statistics at second level? Op. Cleric can pretty much nullify an undead encounter at level 2, if the rolls are right, which is OP. Bard gets access to every spell list? That goes against what spell lists are supposed to be, which is OP. Rogue can deal SO MUCH extra damage on a turn its ridiculous, and they are too good at sneaking, as well as being able to dash as a bonus action, thats really OP. Artificer can switch out cantrips with other cantrips on rests? OP. I may have forgotten a class or two in this, but i hope i have made my point clear.
A warlock is not op because they only have a max of 4 spell slots. A barbarian's rage ends early if they are knocked unconscious or if their turn ends without attacking someone or take damage. The wizard's spell list represents their years of study. Paladin's already have a limited spellcasting ability. Ranger's are master's of their chosen terrains and ignoring difficult terrain fits their class. Sorcerer's have a limited number of sorcery points (that they regain after a long rest. Fighters by nature should have the highest DPS given their class. Clerics are the undead's natural enemy (and even then that ability is limited). Bard's steal from everyone so it is expected. Rogues are supposed to be sneaky and quick.
The 2019 Artificer by second level can create fake magic items that simulate the properties of real magic items (infusions). But the ability to swap cantrips (a spell that doesn't need preparation or a spell slot) after a short or long rest is still OP. The wizard who is supposed to be the master of the arcane doesn't even have that ability.
The 2019 artificer is all about creating temporary magic items and items that can cast spells.
Warlocks do get Eldritch Invocations that let you cast certain leveled spells as cantrips. The point he is making that the Artificer, like these other classes, has quirks that changes the game with something in a way that no other class does. The Right Cantrip for the Job is one of them, and it makes sense in the context of the "cantrips" not being literal manifestations of manipulating the Weave, but mundane objects that simulate what those spells do. Maybe this is why they felt the need to emphasize that you have to visualize spellcasting differently with this class.
Nothing states that those who play the artificer have to use contraptions to simulate the effects of spells when used. They encourages to think out of the box and use contraptions, but we are not held to that suggestion/encouragement. In the gray box "Artificer in Other Worlds" (pg. 2 of the UA), it has been says....
"Eberron is the world most associated with artificers, yet the class can be found throughout the multiverse. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, the island of Lantan is home to many artificers, and in the world of Dragonlance, tinker gnomes are often members of this class. The strange technologies in the Barrier Peaks of the World of Greyhawk have inspired some folk to walk the path of the artificer, and in Mystara, various nations employ artificers to keep airships and other wondrous devices operational. In the City of Sigil, artificers share discoveries from throughout the cosmos, and one in particular—the gnome inventor named Vi—runs a multiverse-spanning business from there. In the worldcity Ravnica, the Izzet League trains numerous artificers, the destructiveness of whom is unparalleled in other worlds, except by the tinker gnomes of Krynn."
The problem is that D&D seems to think that all artificers in the multiverse are the same as the artificers from Eberron.
But everything is all moot, as we have over a month before the sourcebook that contains the new Artificer class is released.
Yeah it aint a half caster, it isnt supposed to be. It is its own thing. Also, infusions are not fake magic items. they are real ones. Not every class design is a cookie cutter of another one. An artificer is a half caster in spell slots only.
Actually, infusions are fake magic items. Because when the artificer dies, the infusion lose their magical properties after a number of days equal to the Intelligence modifier or you decided to get rid of an infusion you know for another one.
"Your infusion remains in an item indefinitely, but when you die, the infusion vanishes after a number of days have passed equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1 day). The infusion also vanishes if you give up your knowledge of the infusion for another one." (pg. 5 of the UA, 2nd paragraph of Infusing an Item)
I haven’t seen anyone agree with Marine on the strength of Right Cantrip for the Job, so it is not something to get frustrated about.
In my mind the term OP can only be applied to something that is vertical, deal more damage hits more people, not to something horizontal, ie have more options. Eg it is perfectly fine that a Wizard can cast Fly and Haste and Animate Weapon’s and Conjure Elemental, because he has to choose one at a time. In the same way it is fine if an Artificer effectively knows all his Cantrips because he still has to choose one at a time to cast.
I have also used the argument of each class expands one something that hasn’t been done before (otherwise it is dull as ****) by definition. It hasn’t worked previously for Marine so just know others understand this too.
All of the spells you listed require the wizard to expend a spell slot. So, comparing them to having the ability of changing a cantrip after a short or long rest doesn't really work.
But as I said, everything is all moot until the Artificer class is released in Eberron: Rising from the Last War.
I'd like to see the content that being able to switch out your all-of-two, three-if-you're-lucky cantrips with Right Cantrip for the Job invalidates or renders unfun.
That's the real, proper definition of overpowered - it breaks something, or renders it unfun. Something being 'overpowered' means something else is no longer fun or relevant because the overpowered thing overshadows it so heavily, or that the thing is powerful enough (or designed poorly enough) that it breaks or invalidates some other system or content.
Right Cantrip for the Job is not overpowered. It does not break anything, and it does not overshadow anything. It is simply a very handy trick that one class gets to better emphasis its toolboxy nature. Wizards are still the Masters Of The Arcane because they get four times the spells artificers do and a ton of other Master Of The Arcane features. If you're going to claim that someone being able to do something a wizard can't do as being overpowered, then every other arcane caster in the game, including Tricksters and Eldritch Knights, all better vamoose because they're all overpowered.
Metamagic Magical Secrets Mage Hand Legerdemain, Magical Ambush Weapon Bond, Eldritch Strike Literally the entirety of how warlocks work
All of it arcane stuff the wizard can't do. How is RCftJ any different?
Yurei I want to thank you for saying that, because I really wanted have my words mean something along those lines but I did not know how to have it make sense.
There needs to be something at level 7 and level 15 in this class. Yes, you learn a new infusion, but that is not an extra one because you do not actually GAIN an infusion, you just can learn a new one. These aren't even the levels that you gain more powerful infusions, in both these cases this unlock comes AFTER, at level 8 and 16 respectively. These levels are perfect for superior attunement, they could be there.
No, actually I am not looking at it from an Eberron perspective. I don't know shit about Eberron. I am trying to look at it from the perspective of what an artificer, as defined in the class description, is. And that is a caster who casts spells from items they have created. Not needing to make permanent choices for cantrips is not an overpowered feature. At best, it is a quality of life improvement. What you are saying is like saying that warlocks in other settings do not cast spells from a patron. That goes against the definition of what a warlock is.
the warlock is OP because it regains spell slots on a short rest, something no other class in the game does. the barbarian at level 1 gets an ability that allows it to gain resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage, for a minute, and advantage on strength checks, something no other class in the game can do. The wizard spell list is way too big compared to the other classes spell lists, and has way too many exclusive spells, making it OP. The paladin has a class feature that runs on spell slots? thats op, because no one else has that as a class feature. The ranger can just IGNORE difficult terrain in certain situations? Thats so OP, difficult terrain is an area that is difficult to walk through, how is a ranger better than that on short distances. The sorcerer can regain spell slots with sorcery points? Thats op, gives them more spell slots than anyone else in the game. Fighter has the highest DPS of any class, ridiculously OP, as well as not just getting extra attack, but multiple extra attacks. Monk can attack as a bonus action at level 1? Op. Druid can completely change its statistics at second level? Op. Cleric can pretty much nullify an undead encounter at level 2, if the rolls are right, which is OP. Bard gets access to every spell list? That goes against what spell lists are supposed to be, which is OP. Rogue can deal SO MUCH extra damage on a turn its ridiculous, and they are too good at sneaking, as well as being able to dash as a bonus action, thats really OP. Artificer can switch out cantrips with other cantrips on rests? OP. I may have forgotten a class or two in this, but i hope i have made my point clear.
Cantrip - A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will, without using a spell slot and without being prepared in advanced. Repeated practice has fixed the spell in the caster's mind and infused the caster with the magic needed to produce the effect over and over. (PHB pg. 201)
The ability "The Right Cantrip for the Job" negates the very definition of a cantrip.
I never said or hinted that the warlock's spellcasting ability didn't come from their patron.
You said that the class description of the artificer was not what the artificer was in settings other than eberron, even though i was referring to an area of it that was not eberron specific. That was why I made that point. Artificers, by definition, cast their spells through items of their creation. Also, according to the description of the artificer, "They see magic as a complex system waiting to be decoded and controlled.". This comes from a paragraph not referring to eberron, but to artificers in general. Artificers are the masters of adaptability, which is why right cantrip for the job makes sense for them.
A warlock is not op because they only have a max of 4 spell slots. A barbarian's rage ends early if they are knocked unconscious or if their turn ends without attacking someone or take damage. The wizard's spell list represents their years of study. Paladin's already have a limited spellcasting ability. Ranger's are master's of their chosen terrains and ignoring difficult terrain fits their class. Sorcerer's have a limited number of sorcery points (that they regain after a long rest. Fighters by nature should have the highest DPS given their class. Clerics are the undead's natural enemy (and even then that ability is limited). Bard's steal from everyone so it is expected. Rogues are supposed to be sneaky and quick.
The 2019 Artificer by second level can create fake magic items that simulate the properties of real magic items (infusions). But the ability to swap cantrips (a spell that doesn't need preparation or a spell slot) after a short or long rest is still OP. The wizard who is supposed to be the master of the arcane doesn't even have that ability.
The 2019 artificer is all about creating temporary magic items and items that can cast spells.
I haven’t seen anyone agree with Marine on the strength of Right Cantrip for the Job, so it is not something to get frustrated about.
In my mind the term OP can only be applied to something that is vertical, deal more damage hits more people, not to something horizontal, ie have more options. Eg it is perfectly fine that a Wizard can cast Fly and Haste and Animate Weapon’s and Conjure Elemental, because he has to choose one at a time. In the same way it is fine if an Artificer effectively knows all his Cantrips because he still has to choose one at a time to cast.
I have also used the argument of each class expands one something that hasn’t been done before (otherwise it is dull as ****) by definition. It hasn’t worked previously for Marine so just know others understand this too.
I feel that the way this artificer has been created it isn't a half-caster. It actually expands upon it's spellcasting ability in such a way that yes "it breaks a lot of notions that have been set about spellcasting classes as a whole" and other half-casters.
But everything that is said is all moot as the final version of the Artificer has already been decided and we will see it when Eberron: Rising from the Last War is released on November 19th.
Yeah it aint a half caster, it isnt supposed to be. It is its own thing. Also, infusions are not fake magic items. they are real ones. Not every class design is a cookie cutter of another one. An artificer is a half caster in spell slots only.
Nothing states that those who play the artificer have to use contraptions to simulate the effects of spells when used. They encourages to think out of the box and use contraptions, but we are not held to that suggestion/encouragement. In the gray box "Artificer in Other Worlds" (pg. 2 of the UA), it has been says....
"Eberron is the world most associated with artificers, yet the class can be found throughout the multiverse. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, the island of Lantan is home to many artificers, and in the world of Dragonlance, tinker gnomes are often members of this class. The strange technologies in the Barrier Peaks of the World of Greyhawk have inspired some folk to walk the path of the artificer, and in Mystara, various nations employ artificers to keep airships and other wondrous devices operational. In the City of Sigil, artificers share
discoveries from throughout the cosmos, and one in particular—the gnome inventor named Vi—runs a multiverse-spanning business from there. In the worldcity Ravnica, the Izzet League trains numerous artificers, the destructiveness of whom is unparalleled in other worlds, except by the tinker gnomes of Krynn."
The problem is that D&D seems to think that all artificers in the multiverse are the same as the artificers from Eberron.
But everything is all moot, as we have over a month before the sourcebook that contains the new Artificer class is released.
Actually, infusions are fake magic items. Because when the artificer dies, the infusion lose their magical properties after a number of days equal to the Intelligence modifier or you decided to get rid of an infusion you know for another one.
"Your infusion remains in an item indefinitely, but when you die, the infusion vanishes after a number of days have passed equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1 day). The
infusion also vanishes if you give up your knowledge of the infusion for another one." (pg. 5 of the UA, 2nd paragraph of Infusing an Item)
All wizards in the multiverse are the same as the wizards from the forgotten realms (except some extra subclasses in some places)
All fighters in the multiverse are the same as the fighters from the forgotten realms (except some extra subclasses)
doesnt make them fake
All of the spells you listed require the wizard to expend a spell slot. So, comparing them to having the ability of changing a cantrip after a short or long rest doesn't really work.
But as I said, everything is all moot until the Artificer class is released in Eberron: Rising from the Last War.
a cantrip is almost infinitely weaker than haste, does not matter whether or not it is a spell slot
I'd like to see the content that being able to switch out your all-of-two, three-if-you're-lucky cantrips with Right Cantrip for the Job invalidates or renders unfun.
That's the real, proper definition of overpowered - it breaks something, or renders it unfun. Something being 'overpowered' means something else is no longer fun or relevant because the overpowered thing overshadows it so heavily, or that the thing is powerful enough (or designed poorly enough) that it breaks or invalidates some other system or content.
Right Cantrip for the Job is not overpowered. It does not break anything, and it does not overshadow anything. It is simply a very handy trick that one class gets to better emphasis its toolboxy nature. Wizards are still the Masters Of The Arcane because they get four times the spells artificers do and a ton of other Master Of The Arcane features. If you're going to claim that someone being able to do something a wizard can't do as being overpowered, then every other arcane caster in the game, including Tricksters and Eldritch Knights, all better vamoose because they're all overpowered.
Metamagic
Magical Secrets
Mage Hand Legerdemain, Magical Ambush
Weapon Bond, Eldritch Strike
Literally the entirety of how warlocks work
All of it arcane stuff the wizard can't do. How is RCftJ any different?
Please do not contact or message me.
Yurei I want to thank you for saying that, because I really wanted have my words mean something along those lines but I did not know how to have it make sense.
There needs to be something at level 7 and level 15 in this class. Yes, you learn a new infusion, but that is not an extra one because you do not actually GAIN an infusion, you just can learn a new one. These aren't even the levels that you gain more powerful infusions, in both these cases this unlock comes AFTER, at level 8 and 16 respectively. These levels are perfect for superior attunement, they could be there.
Eh, honestly superior attunement at these levels would fix a lot of stuff
I loved Superior Attunement. Unfortunately, we're apparently the minority on this one...
I like Superior Attunement, but not at 5th level. Maybe at 8th and 15th level though.