It's simply immensely frustrating to watch people carp so heavily on this - and absolutely doom the subclass, if you guys think Love cleric is coming back at this point after the social blowup you're nuts - when the exact same people give just absolutely no shits whatsoever about anybody else's problems. The answer has always been "if this is a problem at your table, solve it at your table".
I don't think WotC is gonna dump the subclass because of blowback on a thing they could just easily change.
Side note, I don't think "that's your table's problem" is a good response to criticism of a class feature being a little rapey. Either from a moral standpoint, a PR standpoint, or even a design standpoint.
Do you actually read what we type Yurei? We have never called you evil. And we have frequently said that we like the bonding feature and want to see the subclass brought back with that bonding feature. You, in fact, are the only one who talks about scrapping a subclass altogether. Do you ignore those facts because they don't fit the narrative of you being the unappreciated hero?
It doesn't really matter whether or not it makes sense anymore, Iwright. Sadly, the subclass is already sunk. Even if it's not pulled from the next UA doc completely, which I'm still strongly expecting, it'll never progress beyond that point. People'd rather ban it than wrestle with the issues it may highlight.
Ok my last word on the subject in response to "People'd rather ban it than wrestle with the issues it may highlight."
Pretty much every response I've read has been along the lines of "this is a good subclass that has a problematic element, they should fix it in the release, here's [suggestion of how to fix it]." Nobody's banning anything, nobody's suggesting banning anything, nobody wants to ban anything, and people have wrestled with the highlighted problems to suggest workarounds/solutions. I for one have every confidence that Wizards will use the feedback and do the subclass justice. I urge you to go back and re-read some of those responses.
That said, though I'm not a mod so people can feel free to disagree/ ignore this, I'm gonna suggest we lay off this one for now. I think all avenues have been touched on and things seem kind of heated, and I don't foresee anyone changing their stance based on the discussion. Let's talk about Clockwork sorcerer for a while?
All I will say is that, as a player who has to constantly bottle up and sit on something that bugs the shit out of me because not only does nobody else give a shit, but people get offended at me for giving a shit, it is so beyond frustrating to see this great big conflagration of "DX!!!"
Quite all right. This is after all the internet, and people have been known to have thoughts while using it; I'm just fortunate in that I *did* happen to have something akin to a bucket of popcorn while reading it.
Moving on, I'm curious if there's anything people can tell me about what they saw of the clockwork sorcerer? From what I've heard I can gather it's rather sorcery-point heavy, but beyond that I'm a little left in the dark.
Just one last thing. There's a difference between having a bard that can seduce them with an skill that exists in the game, and literally giving clerics a way to easily seduce people.
This is the difference between giving a mass murderer a bow, or an automatic rifle.
I missed the PDF, so I don't know what Clockwork Sorcerer does at all. I'd like to know what it does as well.
The bard was weird, but in a good way.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
The Clockwork Soul had four abilities I can remember.
At 1st level, you can use your reaction any time a creature within 60 feet makes a d20 roll with either advantage or disadvantage. This reaction lets you impose both advantage AND disadvantage on the roll, forcing it to default to a straight d20. You get [CHA Mod] number of uses per long rest. To me, this is actually pretty freaking huge; you can negate the Magic Resistance of high-level enemies against key saves, or allow a blinded/restrained/otherwise-hindered character to act or attack normally one key time. On top of myriad other uses.
At 6th level, you can burn between 1 to 5 sorcery points and give a critter a "shimmering golden barrier of Order". While that barrier is in place, the critter can roll a number of d6s up to whatever number of points was expended and reduce incoming damage by the result.
At 14th, you get the ability to invoke a Supah Saiyan Powah Mode once per long rest, or again if you kill five sorcery points to do it. While in this mode, enemies cannot have advantage when attacking you, and you cannot roll below a 10 on any attack, ability check, or saving throw you make. Which is holy shitballs and probably one of the strongest sorcerer class features ever printed, even with the obnoxious reuse cost.
At 18th, you can spend five sorcery points to invoke a Cavalcade of Robuddy Rebuilders. Within 30 feet of you, a swarm of mechanical helperbots: *stabilize any dying creature *Completely restore/repair the HP of all constructs/objects *End the effect of any ongoing spell of 5th level or lower on a creature or object.
Which is kind of a niche-y ability unless you desperately need to land a no-roll-required Dispell Magic and don't have a 5th-level spell slot left, or unless you're helping your artificer buddy keep her Steel Defender intact, but it's still kinda cool.
Nevertheless, you can maybe see where this bastard'd be out of sorcery points ALL THE TIME. Five for the Supah Saiyan mode, five for the Cavalcade, 1-5 for the barrier, on top of the normal fuel-my-Metamagic-please use for sorcery points. Holy hell this thing will be scraping the dirt beneath the bottom of the barrel for every last sorcery point it can get.
I disagree about the analogy. one thing I definitely agree with Yurei about is that this ability is no more powerful than other tools. I see the difference as handing One person a professional grade kitchen knife, and telling them "it's a knife". then you turn around and hand someone else a big-ass military grade K-bar and tell them "This is a stabbin' knife." yeah, both tools can accomplish the same thing, but you have heavily incentivized one of them to act a certain way.
Well then we need to take Drow poison out of the game, oh and sleep spell..... anything could be used to do terrible things like that if the player is looking to do that. This is a clerk who worships a god similar to a Greek god of love ,which are basically just manipulators.
Ultimately, I would have preferred a very aware sidebar about consent.
Charm Person aside, the Channel Divinity feature was pretty specific about what it does. The target spends their Reaction either attacking, or doing nothing (admiring). And it lasts one turn. Even if you wanted to take advantage of the "admiration" factor, you only have seconds to capitalize on it.
If any form of this subclass make a reappearance, I expect it'll be the Friendship Domain.
I don't think WotC is gonna dump the subclass because of blowback on a thing they could just easily change.
Side note, I don't think "that's your table's problem" is a good response to criticism of a class feature being a little rapey. Either from a moral standpoint, a PR standpoint, or even a design standpoint.
Do you actually read what we type Yurei? We have never called you evil. And we have frequently said that we like the bonding feature and want to see the subclass brought back with that bonding feature. You, in fact, are the only one who talks about scrapping a subclass altogether. Do you ignore those facts because they don't fit the narrative of you being the unappreciated hero?
Ok my last word on the subject in response to "People'd rather ban it than wrestle with the issues it may highlight."
Pretty much every response I've read has been along the lines of "this is a good subclass that has a problematic element, they should fix it in the release, here's [suggestion of how to fix it]." Nobody's banning anything, nobody's suggesting banning anything, nobody wants to ban anything, and people have wrestled with the highlighted problems to suggest workarounds/solutions. I for one have every confidence that Wizards will use the feedback and do the subclass justice. I urge you to go back and re-read some of those responses.
That said, though I'm not a mod so people can feel free to disagree/ ignore this, I'm gonna suggest we lay off this one for now. I think all avenues have been touched on and things seem kind of heated, and I don't foresee anyone changing their stance based on the discussion. Let's talk about Clockwork sorcerer for a while?
Very well, Charlie.
All I will say is that, as a player who has to constantly bottle up and sit on something that bugs the shit out of me because not only does nobody else give a shit, but people get offended at me for giving a shit, it is so beyond frustrating to see this great big conflagration of "DX!!!"
Just...god damnit, Internet...
Please do not contact or message me.
Removed. Have a great day!
*reads the last 2 1/2 pages of this thread*
Whelp. My day just got a WHOLE heck of a lot more interesting than it was earlier...
You know how it goes any time I dare to open my chicken hatch anywhere within hailing distance of other people, Mezz. Sorry about that.
Please do not contact or message me.
Chicken Hatch? that... that is a new one.
Quite all right. This is after all the internet, and people have been known to have thoughts while using it; I'm just fortunate in that I *did* happen to have something akin to a bucket of popcorn while reading it.
Moving on, I'm curious if there's anything people can tell me about what they saw of the clockwork sorcerer? From what I've heard I can gather it's rather sorcery-point heavy, but beyond that I'm a little left in the dark.
I really wish I could read the source document. I hope I find a way or perhaps someone could help me. I’m not suggesting posting it publicly but...
@Zoken44 Regardless of what else may happen, Yurei is delightfully creative with words and for that I am always thankful.
Just one last thing. There's a difference between having a bard that can seduce them with an skill that exists in the game, and literally giving clerics a way to easily seduce people.
This is the difference between giving a mass murderer a bow, or an automatic rifle.
I missed the PDF, so I don't know what Clockwork Sorcerer does at all. I'd like to know what it does as well.
The bard was weird, but in a good way.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
@ZealotGromm It shouldn't be too much longer, either later this week or next.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1224827523176906752
I’m interested in the controversial version. I’m trying to educate myself.
The Clockwork Soul had four abilities I can remember.
At 1st level, you can use your reaction any time a creature within 60 feet makes a d20 roll with either advantage or disadvantage. This reaction lets you impose both advantage AND disadvantage on the roll, forcing it to default to a straight d20. You get [CHA Mod] number of uses per long rest. To me, this is actually pretty freaking huge; you can negate the Magic Resistance of high-level enemies against key saves, or allow a blinded/restrained/otherwise-hindered character to act or attack normally one key time. On top of myriad other uses.
At 6th level, you can burn between 1 to 5 sorcery points and give a critter a "shimmering golden barrier of Order". While that barrier is in place, the critter can roll a number of d6s up to whatever number of points was expended and reduce incoming damage by the result.
At 14th, you get the ability to invoke a Supah Saiyan Powah Mode once per long rest, or again if you kill five sorcery points to do it. While in this mode, enemies cannot have advantage when attacking you, and you cannot roll below a 10 on any attack, ability check, or saving throw you make. Which is holy shitballs and probably one of the strongest sorcerer class features ever printed, even with the obnoxious reuse cost.
At 18th, you can spend five sorcery points to invoke a Cavalcade of Robuddy Rebuilders. Within 30 feet of you, a swarm of mechanical helperbots:
*stabilize any dying creature
*Completely restore/repair the HP of all constructs/objects
*End the effect of any ongoing spell of 5th level or lower on a creature or object.
Which is kind of a niche-y ability unless you desperately need to land a no-roll-required Dispell Magic and don't have a 5th-level spell slot left, or unless you're helping your artificer buddy keep her Steel Defender intact, but it's still kinda cool.
Nevertheless, you can maybe see where this bastard'd be out of sorcery points ALL THE TIME. Five for the Supah Saiyan mode, five for the Cavalcade, 1-5 for the barrier, on top of the normal fuel-my-Metamagic-please use for sorcery points. Holy hell this thing will be scraping the dirt beneath the bottom of the barrel for every last sorcery point it can get.
Please do not contact or message me.
This sounds good, but will take a bunch of sorcery points, which are already limited.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Accurate.
I disagree about the analogy. one thing I definitely agree with Yurei about is that this ability is no more powerful than other tools.
I see the difference as handing One person a professional grade kitchen knife, and telling them "it's a knife". then you turn around and hand someone else a big-ass military grade K-bar and tell them "This is a stabbin' knife." yeah, both tools can accomplish the same thing, but you have heavily incentivized one of them to act a certain way.
Well then we need to take Drow poison out of the game, oh and sleep spell..... anything could be used to do terrible things like that if the player is looking to do that. This is a clerk who worships a god similar to a Greek god of love ,which are basically just manipulators.
Ultimately, I would have preferred a very aware sidebar about consent.
Charm Person aside, the Channel Divinity feature was pretty specific about what it does. The target spends their Reaction either attacking, or doing nothing (admiring). And it lasts one turn. Even if you wanted to take advantage of the "admiration" factor, you only have seconds to capitalize on it.
If any form of this subclass make a reappearance, I expect it'll be the Friendship Domain.
Gnome Armorist - Artificer Subclass Homebrew