So my group and I had an incident recently which reminded me of something I've thought about before... which is how different DM's deal common sense and basic memory for player characters even if the player does not remember/Notice.
So in this case, our group was exploring a dungeon, and my wizard was walking up and down a hallway to check which of the many doors may have been enchanted with magic.. One of the doors give a blip, and I note it for later. According to our Dm he said its evocation magic, which I don't notice that (we're on a voice call so sometimes information gets lost).. Anyway, we don't immediately interact with the door but rather start exploring a bunch of other rooms, during which we have a small combat encounter with a ghost happens and one of our companions is magically aged 10 years, it's all rather dramatic.
Afterwards I decide to investigate the magical door (having forgotten/not noticed that my character know's in an evocatino trap) and as I'm about to do it I remember that detect magic tells me the school and ask my Dm "wait, what school of magic was the magic on this door?" He answers "evocation" and I go "Oh! well then I wouldn't be examining it like this" and he basically goes something akin to "nonono, you said you are doing it, so you're doing it".
After a short argument he allows it but there's sort this uncomfortable air in the voice call.. So when our warlock decides to poke at the door with mage hnad I deliberately stand too close to the door so our Dm might get his will and we can move on with the matter properly settled.. Turns out the door explodes in a fireball when touched. (this killed all my precious skeletons btw)
So in this particular instance, I have no personal beef with my DM..I can understand why he'd want his traps to actually work once in a while.. But honestly, I feel like my character would remember that that's a dangerous door to touch and he might have asked me if I'm sure.. similar to if I said I was about to jump into lava or drink acid... Sometimes It can be several hours or days for the player and only a few mins for the character after all... In this case I think It'd been about 90 mins IRL but 5-10 mins ingame.
I was just crurious as to how people around here feel about this subject.
I don't have any problem with you recovering the fumble, so to speak, in this scenario. If I was your DM I'd certainly have allowed you to take back your action before the trap went off, as long as it was, well, before the trap went off. I would not have reminded you or helped you out in any other way though. If you, the player, forgets, them's the breaks for your character. That character just went through a very dramatic episode, you said - it's perfectly possible your wizard was momentarily off his game due to the recent storm of emotions ot something.
"My character would know better than to do X" is a bit of a slippery slope. I don't know the potentially superlative type of humans you play with, but I assume our fictional superhero characters are just better at pretty much everything they do than we would be in their position - if that's to be the basis for retconning stuff that went wrong just because we, the players, misjudged something or bit off more than our character could chew or just had a brain fart however, that's taking things a bit far for me. Take your lumps and move on, I say.
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I don't have any problem with you recovering the fumble, so to speak, in this scenario. If I was your DM I'd certainly have allowed you to take back your action before the trap went off, as long as it was, well, before the trap went off. I would not have reminded you or helped you out in any other way though. If you, the player, forgets, them's the breaks for your character. That character just went through a very dramatic episode, you said - it's perfectly possible your wizard was momentarily off his game due to the recent storm of emotions ot something.
"My character would know better than to do X" is a bit of a slippery slope. I don't know the potentially superlative type of humans you play with, but I assume our fictional superhero characters are just better at pretty much everything they do than we would be in their position - if that's to be the basis for retconning stuff that went wrong just because we, the players, misjudged something or bit off more than our character could chew or just had a brain fart however, that's taking things a bit far for me. Take your lumps and move on, I say.
To take that to an extreme, if there was a pool of lava and a player decided to walk across it, would you not remind them that it is indeed lava? Fact is that stakes and time is very different for the character than it is for the player.
I don't really think It's a matter of retconning, but rather for the DM to make sure informatino which is obvious and important for the characters to be made clear to the players if it's relevant for a decision. I mean I'm all for failing.. I actually enjoy it it more than success more often than not (Had an interseting episode with some mushroom my char was offered once).
I don't have any problem with you recovering the fumble, so to speak, in this scenario. If I was your DM I'd certainly have allowed you to take back your action before the trap went off, as long as it was, well, before the trap went off. I would not have reminded you or helped you out in any other way though. If you, the player, forgets, them's the breaks for your character. That character just went through a very dramatic episode, you said - it's perfectly possible your wizard was momentarily off his game due to the recent storm of emotions ot something.
"My character would know better than to do X" is a bit of a slippery slope. I don't know the potentially superlative type of humans you play with, but I assume our fictional superhero characters are just better at pretty much everything they do than we would be in their position - if that's to be the basis for retconning stuff that went wrong just because we, the players, misjudged something or bit off more than our character could chew or just had a brain fart however, that's taking things a bit far for me. Take your lumps and move on, I say.
To take that to an extreme, if there was a pool of lava and a player decided to walk across it, would you not remind them that it is indeed lava? Fact is that stakes and time is very different for the character than it is for the player.
I don't really think It's a matter of retconning, but rather for the DM to make sure informatino which is obvious and important for the characters to be made clear to the players if it's relevant for a decision. I mean I'm all for failing.. I actually enjoy it it more than success more often than not (Had an interseting episode with some mushroom my char was offered once).
I'd say there's a bit more absent-mindedness involved in not noticing the roiling hot lava you're stepping on is roiling hot lava but sure, I'll cop to that - if it's a really extreme case, I might make an exception. I wouldn't for your wizard, had you gone through with it to the point the trap had been set off.
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It's a difficult subject, because there are all sorts of memories, short term, long term, player, character, from real play, from background, etc. Because we interlock playing campaigns, and because of holidays, sometimes a few weeks pass between games on the same campaign, etc.
So in general, we are fairly lenient and help each other, including the DM, if it's something that the character/player should really know about. But we are much less lenient if it's something that happened just earlier in the session and the player was not paying attention, and we don't look too favourably on "but my character would have remembered", not that anyone tries it (anymore).
In your case, I think it depends what you exactly said by "as I'm about to do it I". Did you, or did you not say "my character examines the door" ? Honestly, in your case, I think that everyone was fair about it, and considering the fact that some traumatic time had passed, it is actually very possible that your character might have forgotten as well as you. Seeing what your DM said of "you said you are doing it", in our groups, we would have just let the statement stand.
Note that this is because we grew tired of people declaring intentions and stopping and rewinding when someone around the table, not necessarily in character (and often ooc), just made another comment or suggestion. Discussing before is fine (although we already have a tendency to plan for hours), but once something is declared, it stands, good or bad. And it's especially bad in combat, when someone makes a suggestion that might or might not be just slightly biased in their favor.
By enforcing the speaking rules during combat (you can only speak on your turn unless you use a reaction to do it on someone's turn, and both have to be short, one short sentence max), and letting declarations stand, we have sped up play by at least a factor 2 if not a lot more, and the game is much much more exciting.
And as for memory, if it's during the planning, as you can see, we can be lenient, but once it's gone, it's gone.
In this particular case, I think the information simply slipped me by because we have a bit of lag on our voice calls so people end up speaking over eachother, but I honestly can't be sure if that's the case or that I heard it and forgot it due to everything else going on...
I'm definitely not the type to take back my actions after having committed to them.. I try to be very fair about that kinda stuff.. However, I do think that there is some limit where the DM needs to make sure a course of action wchich seems suicidal in character is actually informed according to what the character knows and has obsersved.. After all a DM's job to to make sure a player has fun, and I think trying to punish people for not noticing or forgetting important information they knew 5-10 mins ago is not that. I personally feel like spotting a potentially deadly trap is one of those cases.
You can could of course say "your character could have forgotten during the short combat", which is true, but seems extremely unlikely to me. we generally don't have a DM vs player mentality in our group.. And I felt like my DM was just trying to do cash in on a mistake rather than proper decision making in this instance... which honestly isn't very fun.
I think there's a pretty distinct difference between common knowledge for the player and for the character for example because so many things are much more obvious and/or important from the first person perspective of the character.
As for how far along I was before I remembered. Hmm.. hard to tell, but I do know nothing had happened yet, the DM was about to narrate what was about to happen and then I asked about the magic school... So I I for example had no idea what would happen when the door was touched.
To take that to an extreme, if there was a pool of lava and a player decided to walk across it, would you not remind them that it is indeed lava? Fact is that stakes and time is very different for the character than it is for the player.
I don't really think It's a matter of retconning, but rather for the DM to make sure informatino which is obvious and important for the characters to be made clear to the players if it's relevant for a decision.
And, taken to the extreme this is one more burden to lay at the feet of the DM and for the players to find excuses when some harm befalls them. "But you did not warn me again that it was lava before I stepped in! (although the DM has described the room 2 minutes ago), closely followed by "but you did not warn me that the goblins would hit back !" and finally "you did not tell me that it would hurt my cat familiar if I put him in the blade barrier" ! All similarities to real life situation are absolutely and totally unintentional, obviously. :p
I know that I'm exaggerating, but you can't lay all that at the feet of the DM. There is a balance to be struck. For example, in the Lost Cavern of Tsojcanth, there is a rockslide that is announced by a faint splintering sound. But we were French, and no one had any idea what it meant. So we had many deaths: "The party will hear a faint splintering sound followed by a rocky clattering and rumbling. They must immediately (before the DM counts to 10) move or else be crushed by the avalanche. The falling rocks will kill each party member who fails a saving throw versus Spells (although the avalanche is not magic, of course; the save simply indicates the relative danger)."
So yes, sometimes the DM's descriptions are important, and neglecting to mention that the floor is lava would not be good DMing. But how often does he need to do this ? Does he need to be idiot-proof by asking confirmation at each step the character made ? Because I can guarantee that the game will soon invent better idiots.
Again, you played it fairly in your group standing there on purpose, etc. But there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution for this, and in particular not laying it at the feet of the DM every single time.
I don't think I agree with the mindset that this is laying things at anyone's feet... I just think it's matter of coorperation and making sure everyone is reasonably informed.. If A group of goblins ran across an obvious patch of lava and my DM went "uff, forgot that lava was there!".. I would never expect the goblins to just commit suicide because a detail slipped the DM's mind.
It's not fun to have important choices be made on not noticing/forgetting things your character obviously should've known.
Obviously there is a balance to be struck, but I think it has to be based on reasonable expectations and cooperation.
I'd definitely let a player reconsider an action if it hasn't been actioned yet. It's the same as if someone says "I jump to the left to dodge" and the DM can either say "there's an abyss to your left, remember" or they can say "you fall screaming to your death".
If it had been "I touch the door", "the door explodes", "wait, no, I don't touch the door" then too late, sorry. If they say "I touch the door, actually, what magic was it? oh wait, no then, I don't touch it" then that's just perambulation to the final conclusion of not touching the door. If consequences happen, the thing happened. If you're halfway through deciding your move and change your mind, it's not an issue. It's like letting go of the piece in chess - you basically said "I will move here... wait, how does a knight move? Ok, I won't move there then" whilst holding the piece.
As for player memory vs character, I feel that the players are responsible for remembering whether their character knows something, but the details are a collaborative effort - as evidenced in you remembering that you were told the magic type, but not remembering the answer yourself. The DM agrees that your character knows it and tells you what it was.
I'd definitely let a player reconsider an action if it hasn't been actioned yet. It's the same as if someone says "I jump to the left to dodge" and the DM can either say "there's an abyss to your left, remember" or they can say "you fall screaming to your death".
If it had been "I touch the door", "the door explodes", "wait, no, I don't touch the door" then too late, sorry. If they say "I touch the door, actually, what magic was it? oh wait, no then, I don't touch it" then that's just perambulation to the final conclusion of not touching the door. If consequences happen, the thing happened. If you're halfway through deciding your move and change your mind, it's not an issue. It's like letting go of the piece in chess - you basically said "I will move here... wait, how does a knight move? Ok, I won't move there then" whilst holding the piece.
As for player memory vs character, I feel that the players are responsible for remembering whether their character knows something, but the details are a collaborative effort - as evidenced in you remembering that you were told the magic type, but not remembering the answer yourself. The DM agrees that your character knows it and tells you what it was.
I think I'm in the same camp as you with regards to take backs having to come before the events actually taking place... Knowing the specific consequences and then making another decision is pretty game breaking and anti-fun I believe.
Honestly I don't think we ever made it to discussing if my character knew it in the instance or not... I wasn't really interested in a long debate and wasting everyone's time.
Oh I understand you're not taking issue with my dealing handling of the situation, don't worry :P
I don't think this is asking the DM to remember everything though? It's just asking both the DM and the players to remind eachother of important things they're supposed to know but are apparently forgetting, and I don't think having an imperfect memory justifies forgetting about what is basically a potential bomb within 10 mins... But we probably will not see eye to eye on that one.
I honestly don't think this is laying any burden on my DM at all... I'm probably to first to remind him if he's uncertain about something.
I did actually tell everyone in the group aswell btw, but noone had much time to say or do anything before I asked about the magic school.
Edit: Oh and I honestly really admire people who are able to pay attention and take notes at the same time.. luckily we have such a guy in our group.. I usually miss half of what's being said If I try to take notes. Really takes me out of the moment.
This is not an easy issue -- player remembering vs. PC.
For example, in the OP case, it might be a couple hours of play between when the door was "Detected" and when they tried to open it, but in-character it might only be 10 or 15 minutes. So while the players might forget after 2 hours what the door was like, the PCs probably wouldn't, since it was a lot more recently to them. I frequently remind players of things from previous sessions, because it's been 2 weeks for us, and only maybe an hour or a day for the PCs.
As a matter of courtesy, I will usually remind players of things. In the OP situation, I would probably allow the wizard to say "Oh then I stand back here instead," without complaint. The player legit forgot (or did not hear) something the PC probably would not have forgotten. If unsure, I'd have the PC make an INT check or something, to see if the characters remember something the players might not.
Unfortunately there is no great rule about this... you have to kind of go with your gut as both a DM and a player to figure out if the PCs might remember something the player doesn't. Or perhaps, might have forgotten something that a player with access to notes the PC doesn't take, would remember.
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This is not an easy issue -- player remembering vs. PC.
For example, in the OP case, it might be a couple hours of play between when the door was "Detected" and when they tried to open it, but in-character it might only be 10 or 15 minutes. So while the players might forget after 2 hours what the door was like, the PCs probably wouldn't, since it was a lot more recently to them. I frequently remind players of things from previous sessions, because it's been 2 weeks for us, and only maybe an hour or a day for the PCs.
As a matter of courtesy, I will usually remind players of things. In the OP situation, I would probably allow the wizard to say "Oh then I stand back here instead," without complaint. The player legit forgot (or did not hear) something the PC probably would not have forgotten. If unsure, I'd have the PC make an INT check or something, to see if the characters remember something the players might not.
Unfortunately there is no great rule about this... you have to kind of go with your gut as both a DM and a player to figure out if the PCs might remember something the player doesn't. Or perhaps, might have forgotten something that a player with access to notes the PC doesn't take, would remember.
Pretty much sums up my view of things. I guess what really gave me a bad vibe from the whole thing, is that I felt like it was more of a "gotcha!" moment rather than me actually playing the game... Luckily only half my face burned off when I deliberately stood in the fireball afterwards :P
we've used the int roll for memory before, but for us it's usually been when a character is trying to remember remember the layout of an area when trying to where to position a spell in an area they can no longer see but could see previously (assuming the spell doesn't require line of sight of course).. Our warlock REALLY likes the darkness spell.
For example, in the OP case, it might be a couple hours of play between when the door was "Detected" and when they tried to open it, but in-character it might only be 10 or 15 minutes. So while the players might forget after 2 hours what the door was like, the PCs probably wouldn't, since it was a lot more recently to them.
Without knowing every little detail (and certainly not being a mindreader), if I was the DM and thought the player remembered having tried Detect Magic it wouldn't even occur to me they might need a reminder of the result. So even general modus operandi aside, in this specific case to me it'd feel more like a moment of carelessness than one of forgetfulness. Don't know if that made a difference for MamasToast's DM/table, I think it would've for me.
One thing to remember, and this will depend on how long the DM has been playing D&D, the comment, "you said you are doing it, so you're doing it" -- that was the rule, back in the old days. Once you said, "I open the door," that was it. There was no "Oh wait, I changed my mind." It was kind of like the "touch/move" rule in chess -- you touch a piece, and if it's your piece, you have to move it (if possible), and if it's an opponent's piece, you have to take it (if possible).
As some have pointed out on this thread, the reason for "touch/move" or for "say it/do it" rules is to prevent it from getting out of hand. "I attack the goblin" (rolls a nat 1), "Miss!", "Oh wait, I change my mind and cast a healing spell instead." "Roll your saving throw," "oh no, a 3!", "That's your 3rd death-save fail, your character..." "Wait I feed him a healing potion." You can't play D&D (at least as it was intended to be played) that way.
Now again, in this case, I would probably have said, "OK, since you forgot but your PC would have remembered, you can go ahead and reposition." But not after traps have gone off, rolls have been made, etc. Basically once you roll the dice, you are committed at that point, no matter how much courtesy we are trying to show.
Just like in chess, in a friendly game it may not be "touch/move" but if you are going to pick up your knight, move it up and over, land it in my pawn's square, and take the pawn off the board, and say "Your turn," you can't then, when I pick up my queen to move it into the check-mate position, say "Oh wait!"
While in most cases it should be easy for a PC to remember things, combat is a huge distraction. I forget all about stuff if my kids ask me do something, and that's not even a life threatening situation.
Yes, a between sessions recap is advisable, but same session...I dunno. OP knew to go back to the magic door and said something along the lines of "I touch it". They already knew it had magic on it so /shrug.
I dislike backtracking actions as it is distracting and the players sometimes try to take advantage of it like Bio said above. So I generally institute a lot of "are you sure"s during the first few sessions. Even if it's for nothing. It makes the players think about their actions. Then later, I give them a short pause giving them the chance to consider before I state the result.
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One thing that jumps out to me in the initial post is a mention of this being done by voice chat or phone conversation.
If you're trying to play D&D online using voice chat, that makes it harder to track who's saying what at any given time and really the GM should be more lenient with reminding players of information than they'd be when playing at a table in real life.
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In general, I feel what characters remember can be a collective responsibility. It's a arrogant of a DM to presume their conveyance of characters' experience to the players creates a memory perfect verisimilitude. So I don't play "you forgot, gotcha!" It's a cheap DM shot from when the game set things a bit more adversarial between the DM and the party.
I do this because sometimes my players remind _me_ of story elements in the game. Usually it's information granted them by an NPC I completely personified on the fly at random. So in those instances I'm flattered with their having got such an impression on something I pulled out of my mind, I also take the reminder to run with those details in our more freeform moments. If I can do that, literally impress their imaginations almost entirely by accident, I feel I should also honor with the humility that when I'm trying to impress something upon them, I may miss the mark. Inter-player memory, perhaps seen as meta by some, is also something I frequently allow, sometimes I'll actually put it into the game, "So yes, Acturon reminds you that you two have in fact been in this town before and after "the incident" you may want to enter by cover of night if you want to set foot there ever again." I think if you're lucky to have a table where "keeping account" is kept by everyone at the table, don't challenge it. It's hard to attain that level of round table collaboration.
It's also at a point in my life where I don't think my memory is ever going to get "better" so I'll take all the help I can get, and give it when it seems prudent.
Sometimes, with warning I will go "hard core" on the players, running for their lives type scenario and I won't be as helpful, mistakes can be made in stress, but if I'm dealing with a situation where the character would reasonably recall say what magic told them not too long ago in game time, I'm not going to let a character suffer the consequences of a player's brainfart.
Yeah everyone saying "tough you need to remember everything for your character" seem to forget that the DM is literally the eyes, ears, nose and literally world of the characters. The player sitting at the other end doesn't have all the info, and especially over voice chat. I just had this happen - PC got attacked I said the damage the PC didn't hear me and when their turn came around I said "roll a death save" and they were totally lost on why because they missed my damage over VC.
Yeah I don't like to roll back things, but if I just told a PC the door was trapped and they say I touch it, I would absolutely throw in an "are you sure" and if they give me the confused dog look just remind them their character had just learn XYZ about the door.
As Slyflourish said this week DMs should be on the side of the player, not in the hope they win, but set them up so they can do their best. The DM should be hoping that the dice fall correctly, but not change the game so the PCs always win, but the DM shouldn't be hoping to "gotcha" a player.
I pretty much always try to remind players of details their character would know that they have forgotten. Hell, for that matter I cannot tell you how many times I have had to rely on my players mid-session to help me remember details of my own goddamn campaign...
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So my group and I had an incident recently which reminded me of something I've thought about before... which is how different DM's deal common sense and basic memory for player characters even if the player does not remember/Notice.
So in this case, our group was exploring a dungeon, and my wizard was walking up and down a hallway to check which of the many doors may have been enchanted with magic.. One of the doors give a blip, and I note it for later. According to our Dm he said its evocation magic, which I don't notice that (we're on a voice call so sometimes information gets lost).. Anyway, we don't immediately interact with the door but rather start exploring a bunch of other rooms, during which we have a small combat encounter with a ghost happens and one of our companions is magically aged 10 years, it's all rather dramatic.
Afterwards I decide to investigate the magical door (having forgotten/not noticed that my character know's in an evocatino trap) and as I'm about to do it I remember that detect magic tells me the school and ask my Dm "wait, what school of magic was the magic on this door?" He answers "evocation" and I go "Oh! well then I wouldn't be examining it like this" and he basically goes something akin to "nonono, you said you are doing it, so you're doing it".
After a short argument he allows it but there's sort this uncomfortable air in the voice call.. So when our warlock decides to poke at the door with mage hnad I deliberately stand too close to the door so our Dm might get his will and we can move on with the matter properly settled.. Turns out the door explodes in a fireball when touched. (this killed all my precious skeletons btw)
So in this particular instance, I have no personal beef with my DM..I can understand why he'd want his traps to actually work once in a while.. But honestly, I feel like my character would remember that that's a dangerous door to touch and he might have asked me if I'm sure.. similar to if I said I was about to jump into lava or drink acid... Sometimes It can be several hours or days for the player and only a few mins for the character after all... In this case I think It'd been about 90 mins IRL but 5-10 mins ingame.
I was just crurious as to how people around here feel about this subject.
I don't have any problem with you recovering the fumble, so to speak, in this scenario. If I was your DM I'd certainly have allowed you to take back your action before the trap went off, as long as it was, well, before the trap went off. I would not have reminded you or helped you out in any other way though. If you, the player, forgets, them's the breaks for your character. That character just went through a very dramatic episode, you said - it's perfectly possible your wizard was momentarily off his game due to the recent storm of emotions ot something.
"My character would know better than to do X" is a bit of a slippery slope. I don't know the potentially superlative type of humans you play with, but I assume our fictional superhero characters are just better at pretty much everything they do than we would be in their position - if that's to be the basis for retconning stuff that went wrong just because we, the players, misjudged something or bit off more than our character could chew or just had a brain fart however, that's taking things a bit far for me. Take your lumps and move on, I say.
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To take that to an extreme, if there was a pool of lava and a player decided to walk across it, would you not remind them that it is indeed lava? Fact is that stakes and time is very different for the character than it is for the player.
I don't really think It's a matter of retconning, but rather for the DM to make sure informatino which is obvious and important for the characters to be made clear to the players if it's relevant for a decision. I mean I'm all for failing.. I actually enjoy it it more than success more often than not (Had an interseting episode with some mushroom my char was offered once).
I'd say there's a bit more absent-mindedness involved in not noticing the roiling hot lava you're stepping on is roiling hot lava but sure, I'll cop to that - if it's a really extreme case, I might make an exception. I wouldn't for your wizard, had you gone through with it to the point the trap had been set off.
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In this particular case, I think the information simply slipped me by because we have a bit of lag on our voice calls so people end up speaking over eachother, but I honestly can't be sure if that's the case or that I heard it and forgot it due to everything else going on...
I'm definitely not the type to take back my actions after having committed to them.. I try to be very fair about that kinda stuff.. However, I do think that there is some limit where the DM needs to make sure a course of action wchich seems suicidal in character is actually informed according to what the character knows and has obsersved.. After all a DM's job to to make sure a player has fun, and I think trying to punish people for not noticing or forgetting important information they knew 5-10 mins ago is not that. I personally feel like spotting a potentially deadly trap is one of those cases.
You can could of course say "your character could have forgotten during the short combat", which is true, but seems extremely unlikely to me. we generally don't have a DM vs player mentality in our group.. And I felt like my DM was just trying to do cash in on a mistake rather than proper decision making in this instance... which honestly isn't very fun.
I think there's a pretty distinct difference between common knowledge for the player and for the character for example because so many things are much more obvious and/or important from the first person perspective of the character.
As for how far along I was before I remembered. Hmm.. hard to tell, but I do know nothing had happened yet, the DM was about to narrate what was about to happen and then I asked about the magic school... So I I for example had no idea what would happen when the door was touched.
I don't think I agree with the mindset that this is laying things at anyone's feet... I just think it's matter of coorperation and making sure everyone is reasonably informed.. If A group of goblins ran across an obvious patch of lava and my DM went "uff, forgot that lava was there!".. I would never expect the goblins to just commit suicide because a detail slipped the DM's mind.
It's not fun to have important choices be made on not noticing/forgetting things your character obviously should've known.
Obviously there is a balance to be struck, but I think it has to be based on reasonable expectations and cooperation.
I'd definitely let a player reconsider an action if it hasn't been actioned yet. It's the same as if someone says "I jump to the left to dodge" and the DM can either say "there's an abyss to your left, remember" or they can say "you fall screaming to your death".
If it had been "I touch the door", "the door explodes", "wait, no, I don't touch the door" then too late, sorry. If they say "I touch the door, actually, what magic was it? oh wait, no then, I don't touch it" then that's just perambulation to the final conclusion of not touching the door. If consequences happen, the thing happened. If you're halfway through deciding your move and change your mind, it's not an issue. It's like letting go of the piece in chess - you basically said "I will move here... wait, how does a knight move? Ok, I won't move there then" whilst holding the piece.
As for player memory vs character, I feel that the players are responsible for remembering whether their character knows something, but the details are a collaborative effort - as evidenced in you remembering that you were told the magic type, but not remembering the answer yourself. The DM agrees that your character knows it and tells you what it was.
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I think I'm in the same camp as you with regards to take backs having to come before the events actually taking place... Knowing the specific consequences and then making another decision is pretty game breaking and anti-fun I believe.
Honestly I don't think we ever made it to discussing if my character knew it in the instance or not... I wasn't really interested in a long debate and wasting everyone's time.
Oh I understand you're not taking issue with my dealing handling of the situation, don't worry :P
I don't think this is asking the DM to remember everything though? It's just asking both the DM and the players to remind eachother of important things they're supposed to know but are apparently forgetting, and I don't think having an imperfect memory justifies forgetting about what is basically a potential bomb within 10 mins... But we probably will not see eye to eye on that one.
I honestly don't think this is laying any burden on my DM at all... I'm probably to first to remind him if he's uncertain about something.
I did actually tell everyone in the group aswell btw, but noone had much time to say or do anything before I asked about the magic school.
Edit: Oh and I honestly really admire people who are able to pay attention and take notes at the same time.. luckily we have such a guy in our group.. I usually miss half of what's being said If I try to take notes. Really takes me out of the moment.
This is not an easy issue -- player remembering vs. PC.
For example, in the OP case, it might be a couple hours of play between when the door was "Detected" and when they tried to open it, but in-character it might only be 10 or 15 minutes. So while the players might forget after 2 hours what the door was like, the PCs probably wouldn't, since it was a lot more recently to them. I frequently remind players of things from previous sessions, because it's been 2 weeks for us, and only maybe an hour or a day for the PCs.
As a matter of courtesy, I will usually remind players of things. In the OP situation, I would probably allow the wizard to say "Oh then I stand back here instead," without complaint. The player legit forgot (or did not hear) something the PC probably would not have forgotten. If unsure, I'd have the PC make an INT check or something, to see if the characters remember something the players might not.
Unfortunately there is no great rule about this... you have to kind of go with your gut as both a DM and a player to figure out if the PCs might remember something the player doesn't. Or perhaps, might have forgotten something that a player with access to notes the PC doesn't take, would remember.
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Pretty much sums up my view of things. I guess what really gave me a bad vibe from the whole thing, is that I felt like it was more of a "gotcha!" moment rather than me actually playing the game... Luckily only half my face burned off when I deliberately stood in the fireball afterwards :P
we've used the int roll for memory before, but for us it's usually been when a character is trying to remember remember the layout of an area when trying to where to position a spell in an area they can no longer see but could see previously (assuming the spell doesn't require line of sight of course).. Our warlock REALLY likes the darkness spell.
Without knowing every little detail (and certainly not being a mindreader), if I was the DM and thought the player remembered having tried Detect Magic it wouldn't even occur to me they might need a reminder of the result. So even general modus operandi aside, in this specific case to me it'd feel more like a moment of carelessness than one of forgetfulness. Don't know if that made a difference for MamasToast's DM/table, I think it would've for me.
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One thing to remember, and this will depend on how long the DM has been playing D&D, the comment, "you said you are doing it, so you're doing it" -- that was the rule, back in the old days. Once you said, "I open the door," that was it. There was no "Oh wait, I changed my mind." It was kind of like the "touch/move" rule in chess -- you touch a piece, and if it's your piece, you have to move it (if possible), and if it's an opponent's piece, you have to take it (if possible).
As some have pointed out on this thread, the reason for "touch/move" or for "say it/do it" rules is to prevent it from getting out of hand. "I attack the goblin" (rolls a nat 1), "Miss!", "Oh wait, I change my mind and cast a healing spell instead." "Roll your saving throw," "oh no, a 3!", "That's your 3rd death-save fail, your character..." "Wait I feed him a healing potion." You can't play D&D (at least as it was intended to be played) that way.
Now again, in this case, I would probably have said, "OK, since you forgot but your PC would have remembered, you can go ahead and reposition." But not after traps have gone off, rolls have been made, etc. Basically once you roll the dice, you are committed at that point, no matter how much courtesy we are trying to show.
Just like in chess, in a friendly game it may not be "touch/move" but if you are going to pick up your knight, move it up and over, land it in my pawn's square, and take the pawn off the board, and say "Your turn," you can't then, when I pick up my queen to move it into the check-mate position, say "Oh wait!"
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While in most cases it should be easy for a PC to remember things, combat is a huge distraction. I forget all about stuff if my kids ask me do something, and that's not even a life threatening situation.
Yes, a between sessions recap is advisable, but same session...I dunno. OP knew to go back to the magic door and said something along the lines of "I touch it". They already knew it had magic on it so /shrug.
I dislike backtracking actions as it is distracting and the players sometimes try to take advantage of it like Bio said above. So I generally institute a lot of "are you sure"s during the first few sessions. Even if it's for nothing. It makes the players think about their actions. Then later, I give them a short pause giving them the chance to consider before I state the result.
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One thing that jumps out to me in the initial post is a mention of this being done by voice chat or phone conversation.
If you're trying to play D&D online using voice chat, that makes it harder to track who's saying what at any given time and really the GM should be more lenient with reminding players of information than they'd be when playing at a table in real life.
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In general, I feel what characters remember can be a collective responsibility. It's a arrogant of a DM to presume their conveyance of characters' experience to the players creates a memory perfect verisimilitude. So I don't play "you forgot, gotcha!" It's a cheap DM shot from when the game set things a bit more adversarial between the DM and the party.
I do this because sometimes my players remind _me_ of story elements in the game. Usually it's information granted them by an NPC I completely personified on the fly at random. So in those instances I'm flattered with their having got such an impression on something I pulled out of my mind, I also take the reminder to run with those details in our more freeform moments. If I can do that, literally impress their imaginations almost entirely by accident, I feel I should also honor with the humility that when I'm trying to impress something upon them, I may miss the mark. Inter-player memory, perhaps seen as meta by some, is also something I frequently allow, sometimes I'll actually put it into the game, "So yes, Acturon reminds you that you two have in fact been in this town before and after "the incident" you may want to enter by cover of night if you want to set foot there ever again." I think if you're lucky to have a table where "keeping account" is kept by everyone at the table, don't challenge it. It's hard to attain that level of round table collaboration.
It's also at a point in my life where I don't think my memory is ever going to get "better" so I'll take all the help I can get, and give it when it seems prudent.
Sometimes, with warning I will go "hard core" on the players, running for their lives type scenario and I won't be as helpful, mistakes can be made in stress, but if I'm dealing with a situation where the character would reasonably recall say what magic told them not too long ago in game time, I'm not going to let a character suffer the consequences of a player's brainfart.
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Yeah everyone saying "tough you need to remember everything for your character" seem to forget that the DM is literally the eyes, ears, nose and literally world of the characters. The player sitting at the other end doesn't have all the info, and especially over voice chat. I just had this happen - PC got attacked I said the damage the PC didn't hear me and when their turn came around I said "roll a death save" and they were totally lost on why because they missed my damage over VC.
Yeah I don't like to roll back things, but if I just told a PC the door was trapped and they say I touch it, I would absolutely throw in an "are you sure" and if they give me the confused dog look just remind them their character had just learn XYZ about the door.
As Slyflourish said this week DMs should be on the side of the player, not in the hope they win, but set them up so they can do their best. The DM should be hoping that the dice fall correctly, but not change the game so the PCs always win, but the DM shouldn't be hoping to "gotcha" a player.
I pretty much always try to remind players of details their character would know that they have forgotten. Hell, for that matter I cannot tell you how many times I have had to rely on my players mid-session to help me remember details of my own goddamn campaign...