I was reading through the DM guide, specifically the buying magic section where it is metioned that above 3rd level magic is very difficult to obtain and might even require a request from the wizard to obtain... as a level 5 wizard I cant help but feel that this is a bit silly. As when reverse engineered I could go into any town and charge prices for spells that are either A. Extortionate and then a reason would need to be crafted as to why its not really that valuable (thereby requiring magic to be more abundant and taking away the rarity) or B. Charge low prices and just get as much money as I deem would be necessary for the essentials of our campaign.
I would like to say that I am not for this plan, its dull and boring and would inevitably lead to DM fiat that somehow it just doesnt work. I just don't know why they went this far to try and make magic so rarified in comparison to previous editions and pathfinder.
Think about it,first off less then 2% of the population can cast spells at all.An even tinier fraction of those guys can cast 3rd level (0.5% of the population got 2nd level spells,0.125 of the population can cast 3rd level spells.) then thing of the chance that you happen to be near a person who knows the spell you want,is willing to sell there magic,and does'nt want to suck you dry.You need thousands of people for that do happen,and then you still need to pay an exuberant price for your magical bombing service or whatever your buying.
This makes perfect sense,and magic has pretty always been this rare,even in almost every previous edition.In reality,you don't often need to buy spellcasting services,and when you do,you can find the people and have the money anyway.Because your a rich ass adventurer.
Want to sell your services,well your only customers are the rich ass elite and the occasional desperate plea from common folk.
Want to sell your services, well your only customers are the rich ass elite and the occasional desperate plea from common folk.
This.
Just because your 10th level character who can cast higher level spells wants to charge thousands of gold pieces to cast them, doesn't mean anyone in the town can afford those prices.
The OP seems to assume that you can just look at the DMG, figure out the price of a 4th level spell, and then assume you are casting your max # of spell slots per day every day during down time and convert spell slots into gold. It doesn't work that way. Even a nobleman won't be able to afford more than the occasional, emergency cast of a spell that high, and 99% of the population won't see as much gold as you'd be charging in their lifetimes.
It's like selling magic items. Just because the DMG says a particular magic item is worth 10,000 gp, doesn't mean there's anyone in town willing or able to pay that much for it.
If you're willing to sell your spells at a much lower price, you will be able to sell significantly more of them. Depending on the size of the city, the result will be either running out of customers as everyone with more than a couple gp has gotten all they need, or you will start to run into problems with other wizards upset over being undercut.
If you're willing to sell your spells at a much lower price, you will be able to sell significantly more of them. Depending on the size of the city, the result will be either running out of customers as everyone with more than a couple gp has gotten all they need, or you will start to run into problems with other wizards upset over being undercut.
But the official line is that there likely are no other wizards anywhere in the region. Most Churches (officially) do not even have levelled clergy.
If you're going by the numbers posted above, there's a caster capable of casting 3rd level spells for every 800 people. When you have a city of ten thousand or so you're likely to have competition that will be upset by lower prices. If the city is too much smaller than that, you aren't going to have enough people that need something done that's worth the price of a spell and are able to pay for it.
If you're willing to sell your spells at a much lower price, you will be able to sell significantly more of them. Depending on the size of the city, the result will be either running out of customers as everyone with more than a couple gp has gotten all they need, or you will start to run into problems with other wizards upset over being undercut.
But the official line is that there likely are no other wizards anywhere in the region. Most Churches (officially) do not even have levelled clergy.
If you're going by the numbers posted above, there's a caster capable of casting 3rd level spells for every 800 people. When you have a city of ten thousand or so you're likely to have competition that will be upset by lower prices. If the city is too much smaller than that, you aren't going to have enough people that need something done that's worth the price of a spell and are able to pay for it.
No clue where those percentages come from, actually. Curious as to source. In my campaigns the numbers are higher for major cities, but there are no 'magic shops' per se.
Some rough estimates regarding the guidlines in 3.5 guidlines for class demographics.And yeah,it's different for a lot of settings (a setting with mainly magical races and/or with more intergrated magic will have a way higher percentage) but this is the rough guidline for the percentage of leveled spellcasters in the world.
Want to sell your services, well your only customers are the rich ass elite and the occasional desperate plea from common folk.
This.
Just because your 10th level character who can cast higher level spells wants to charge thousands of gold pieces to cast them, doesn't mean anyone in the town can afford those prices.
The OP seems to assume that you can just look at the DMG, figure out the price of a 4th level spell, and then assume you are casting your max # of spell slots per day every day during down time and convert spell slots into gold. It doesn't work that way. Even a nobleman won't be able to afford more than the occasional, emergency cast of a spell that high, and 99% of the population won't see as much gold as you'd be charging in their lifetimes.
It's like selling magic items. Just because the DMG says a particular magic item is worth 10,000 gp, doesn't mean there's anyone in town willing or able to pay that much for it.
And also consider not just the lack of funds for the casting, but the general lack of demand for the spells on the wizard list. How many townsfolk need to be able to fly for an hour? Really, remove curse is the only level 3 wizard spell I could see civilians ever needing. And even then, it would be pretty rare for Jane Q Shopkeeper to get cursed in the first place, and if she was, it’s probably more of an adventure hook than anything else. There’s quite a few cleric spell an average person might need or use, but wizard, not so much.
The intersection between the set of people with enough money to pay a higher level wizard spell, and the set of people who happen to need just such a spell, is probably a fairly small one.
It'd be like trying to sell private jets to the average middle class person....
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
In general, I don't see Adventurers as being the sort of people who become merchants. There are a lot of easier ways to get money than raiding ancient ruins and delving into forgotten tombs and dungeons. If a player wants to spend their downtime selling stuff, I believe there are rules in Xanathar's for that, but near as I have noticed, it's rare that you come out ahead much. It's worth mentioning that if spell casters are common enough, there will be guilds for them, and they probably won't like it if you tread on their turf. It's the same with Divine casters. The Church (whatever you want to call it) might not like the idea of someone going around charging money for something the want to confine to the laity.
Making lots of gold by being a merchant also has the problem that most cities have laws about that. You might find yourself visited by the local lord''s tax collectors, the only thing equally common is Death, which you might also get if the local lord is sufficiently upset or you don't pay your taxes. People with hoards of gold also may find themselves with a Dragon coming by, because hoarding gold is a specialty of theirs.
My own setting is trying to be a low magic one. I don't let people buy anything more than Uncommon items and I'm on the fence about Rare ones. I don't have leveled NPCs as such, unless my player characters are looking to kill some. I confine spell casting services to Priests for Divine magic, and those aren't really leveled, what they do is channel the power of holy places or relics as ritual casters. I have similar rules for Mages. A Wizard is a good deal more mighty than a Mage. I'm shooting for Heroic Fantasy, and I want even low level characters to feel like they are the heroes of a story, at the first Tier they are apprentices pretty much, the second Tier they are beginning to be heroes but they aren't there yet, by the third, they are full fledged Heroes and are running around saving the world, and they approach Super-Heroes in Tier 4.
The wizard spell I'd actually expect to be most in demand is Continual Flame.
Yep and under 3.5 you could do multiple objects. I used copper pieces and quickly equipped my PCs with flashlights (a continual light CP at the bottom of a would tube with a cap on the front) takes a lot less space than a bulls eye lantern. Even under 5e it’s the most useful spell for sales because it’s a permanent replacement for candles, lamps and torches and pays for itself eventually.
Yup. Have a wizard cast Continual Flame on a bunch of items and you can suddenly have streets that are illuminated at night for no ongoing costs or indoor lights without the issues of smoke, unwanted heat, or risk of fire.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It'll be more than 50 gp, since the spell consumes that much resource, and the Wizard would likely have a mark-up. It'd probably cost over 100 gp per cast.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
IMO it's probably an attempt to evoke the classic high fantasy feel where magic is something rare and wondrous, which IMO is a motif D&D has never really been able to capture that well without extensive modifications to the core assumptions of the settings.
That was really my point - for wealthy families or businesses it pays for itself over time so while it is expensive it’s a worthwhile expense. Same thing for adventurers a human fighter with a helmet could have one embedded in the helmet with a cap on a pivot so when he needs it he has it and when he doesn’t it’s covered. Never has to buy or carry torches again. Granted torches are very cheap in cost but their encumberance is hefty especially when you realize you need a new one every hour.
In general, I don't see Adventurers as being the sort of people who become merchants. There are a lot of easier ways to get money than raiding ancient ruins and delving into forgotten tombs and dungeons. If a player wants to spend their downtime selling stuff, I believe there are rules in Xanathar's for that, but near as I have noticed, it's rare that you come out ahead much. It's worth mentioning that if spell casters are common enough, there will be guilds for them, and they probably won't like it if you tread on their turf. It's the same with Divine casters. The Church (whatever you want to call it) might not like the idea of someone going around charging money for something the want to confine to the laity.
Making lots of gold by being a merchant also has the problem that most cities have laws about that. You might find yourself visited by the local lord''s tax collectors, the only thing equally common is Death, which you might also get if the local lord is sufficiently upset or you don't pay your taxes. People with hoards of gold also may find themselves with a Dragon coming by, because hoarding gold is a specialty of theirs.
My own setting is trying to be a low magic one. I don't let people buy anything more than Uncommon items and I'm on the fence about Rare ones. I don't have leveled NPCs as such, unless my player characters are looking to kill some. I confine spell casting services to Priests for Divine magic, and those aren't really leveled, what they do is channel the power of holy places or relics as ritual casters. I have similar rules for Mages. A Wizard is a good deal more mighty than a Mage. I'm shooting for Heroic Fantasy, and I want even low level characters to feel like they are the heroes of a story, at the first Tier they are apprentices pretty much, the second Tier they are beginning to be heroes but they aren't there yet, by the third, they are full fledged Heroes and are running around saving the world, and they approach Super-Heroes in Tier 4.
Being a merchant really isn't that heroic.
This answer basically does prove my point though, DM fiat is absolutely necessary to balance out the rules that they decided to include. And I firmly disagree, there could be no easier way to make money than waiting for people to bring it in large quantities at no risk of death that an adventure would provide. The book establishes that magic is so rare and valuable that people actually need to perform tasks to get it. Therefore it seems disingenuous to suggest that its a small market, "oh it's super rare and valuable so you can't buy it... but it's also nothing anyone really wants so you can't make money from it". I'm not saying this is exciting btw, I'm just saying that it was a silly thing to include just to try and curb the excesses of other editions where you could custom build characters over time (which in fairness I generally preferred) and opens up a host of problems.
And I find the 1 in 800 suggested elsewhere in the thread quite confusing.. as thats actually quite a large proportion really, every town would have a spellcaster at the very least. Plus it seems actually unlikely considering the amount of races that have magic built in to their very existence
That was really my point - for wealthy families or businesses it pays for itself over time so while it is expensive it’s a worthwhile expense. Same thing for adventurers a human fighter with a helmet could have one embedded in the helmet with a cap on a pivot so when he needs it he has it and when he doesn’t it’s covered. Never has to buy or carry torches again. Granted torches are very cheap in cost but their encumberance is hefty especially when you realize you need a new one every hour.
It is literally an everburning flame though. That would make carrying it as an adventurer much trickier than carrying a conventional torch.
Why? Continual Flame specifically says it produces no heat - doesn't use oxygen - and can be covered. It's vastly easier to carry around than even an unlit torch - especially when put on something light like a copper coin.
So what this amounts to is... 3.5e was better, 5e should be more like that, is that right?
Nah, if anything what I would be referencing would be pathfinder as that fixed some of the issues of 3.5, while 5e fixed some of the problems of pathfinder (I think spell slots rather than preparing individual spells is a great QOL), but this is an issue I specifically find as an odd choice to do. It's far too breakable an idea, for no purpose I can see other than attempting to create magical limits for the players.
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I was reading through the DM guide, specifically the buying magic section where it is metioned that above 3rd level magic is very difficult to obtain and might even require a request from the wizard to obtain... as a level 5 wizard I cant help but feel that this is a bit silly. As when reverse engineered I could go into any town and charge prices for spells that are either A. Extortionate and then a reason would need to be crafted as to why its not really that valuable (thereby requiring magic to be more abundant and taking away the rarity) or B. Charge low prices and just get as much money as I deem would be necessary for the essentials of our campaign.
I would like to say that I am not for this plan, its dull and boring and would inevitably lead to DM fiat that somehow it just doesnt work. I just don't know why they went this far to try and make magic so rarified in comparison to previous editions and pathfinder.
Think about it,first off less then 2% of the population can cast spells at all.An even tinier fraction of those guys can cast 3rd level (0.5% of the population got 2nd level spells,0.125 of the population can cast 3rd level spells.) then thing of the chance that you happen to be near a person who knows the spell you want,is willing to sell there magic,and does'nt want to suck you dry.You need thousands of people for that do happen,and then you still need to pay an exuberant price for your magical bombing service or whatever your buying.
This makes perfect sense,and magic has pretty always been this rare,even in almost every previous edition.In reality,you don't often need to buy spellcasting services,and when you do,you can find the people and have the money anyway.Because your a rich ass adventurer.
Want to sell your services,well your only customers are the rich ass elite and the occasional desperate plea from common folk.
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
This.
Just because your 10th level character who can cast higher level spells wants to charge thousands of gold pieces to cast them, doesn't mean anyone in the town can afford those prices.
The OP seems to assume that you can just look at the DMG, figure out the price of a 4th level spell, and then assume you are casting your max # of spell slots per day every day during down time and convert spell slots into gold. It doesn't work that way. Even a nobleman won't be able to afford more than the occasional, emergency cast of a spell that high, and 99% of the population won't see as much gold as you'd be charging in their lifetimes.
It's like selling magic items. Just because the DMG says a particular magic item is worth 10,000 gp, doesn't mean there's anyone in town willing or able to pay that much for it.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If you're willing to sell your spells at a much lower price, you will be able to sell significantly more of them. Depending on the size of the city, the result will be either running out of customers as everyone with more than a couple gp has gotten all they need, or you will start to run into problems with other wizards upset over being undercut.
If you're going by the numbers posted above, there's a caster capable of casting 3rd level spells for every 800 people. When you have a city of ten thousand or so you're likely to have competition that will be upset by lower prices. If the city is too much smaller than that, you aren't going to have enough people that need something done that's worth the price of a spell and are able to pay for it.
Some rough estimates regarding the guidlines in 3.5 guidlines for class demographics.And yeah,it's different for a lot of settings (a setting with mainly magical races and/or with more intergrated magic will have a way higher percentage) but this is the rough guidline for the percentage of leveled spellcasters in the world.
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
i am a sauce priest
help create a world here
And also consider not just the lack of funds for the casting, but the general lack of demand for the spells on the wizard list. How many townsfolk need to be able to fly for an hour? Really, remove curse is the only level 3 wizard spell I could see civilians ever needing. And even then, it would be pretty rare for Jane Q Shopkeeper to get cursed in the first place, and if she was, it’s probably more of an adventure hook than anything else.
There’s quite a few cleric spell an average person might need or use, but wizard, not so much.
Yup.
The intersection between the set of people with enough money to pay a higher level wizard spell, and the set of people who happen to need just such a spell, is probably a fairly small one.
It'd be like trying to sell private jets to the average middle class person....
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
In general, I don't see Adventurers as being the sort of people who become merchants. There are a lot of easier ways to get money than raiding ancient ruins and delving into forgotten tombs and dungeons. If a player wants to spend their downtime selling stuff, I believe there are rules in Xanathar's for that, but near as I have noticed, it's rare that you come out ahead much. It's worth mentioning that if spell casters are common enough, there will be guilds for them, and they probably won't like it if you tread on their turf. It's the same with Divine casters. The Church (whatever you want to call it) might not like the idea of someone going around charging money for something the want to confine to the laity.
Making lots of gold by being a merchant also has the problem that most cities have laws about that. You might find yourself visited by the local lord''s tax collectors, the only thing equally common is Death, which you might also get if the local lord is sufficiently upset or you don't pay your taxes. People with hoards of gold also may find themselves with a Dragon coming by, because hoarding gold is a specialty of theirs.
My own setting is trying to be a low magic one. I don't let people buy anything more than Uncommon items and I'm on the fence about Rare ones. I don't have leveled NPCs as such, unless my player characters are looking to kill some. I confine spell casting services to Priests for Divine magic, and those aren't really leveled, what they do is channel the power of holy places or relics as ritual casters. I have similar rules for Mages. A Wizard is a good deal more mighty than a Mage. I'm shooting for Heroic Fantasy, and I want even low level characters to feel like they are the heroes of a story, at the first Tier they are apprentices pretty much, the second Tier they are beginning to be heroes but they aren't there yet, by the third, they are full fledged Heroes and are running around saving the world, and they approach Super-Heroes in Tier 4.
Being a merchant really isn't that heroic.
<Insert clever signature here>
The wizard spell I'd actually expect to be most in demand is Continual Flame.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yep and under 3.5 you could do multiple objects. I used copper pieces and quickly equipped my PCs with flashlights (a continual light CP at the bottom of a would tube with a cap on the front) takes a lot less space than a bulls eye lantern. Even under 5e it’s the most useful spell for sales because it’s a permanent replacement for candles, lamps and torches and pays for itself eventually.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yup. Have a wizard cast Continual Flame on a bunch of items and you can suddenly have streets that are illuminated at night for no ongoing costs or indoor lights without the issues of smoke, unwanted heat, or risk of fire.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It'll be more than 50 gp, since the spell consumes that much resource, and the Wizard would likely have a mark-up. It'd probably cost over 100 gp per cast.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
IMO it's probably an attempt to evoke the classic high fantasy feel where magic is something rare and wondrous, which IMO is a motif D&D has never really been able to capture that well without extensive modifications to the core assumptions of the settings.
It's a permanent affect. That adds up over time.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That was really my point - for wealthy families or businesses it pays for itself over time so while it is expensive it’s a worthwhile expense. Same thing for adventurers a human fighter with a helmet could have one embedded in the helmet with a cap on a pivot so when he needs it he has it and when he doesn’t it’s covered. Never has to buy or carry torches again. Granted torches are very cheap in cost but their encumberance is hefty especially when you realize you need a new one every hour.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This answer basically does prove my point though, DM fiat is absolutely necessary to balance out the rules that they decided to include. And I firmly disagree, there could be no easier way to make money than waiting for people to bring it in large quantities at no risk of death that an adventure would provide. The book establishes that magic is so rare and valuable that people actually need to perform tasks to get it. Therefore it seems disingenuous to suggest that its a small market, "oh it's super rare and valuable so you can't buy it... but it's also nothing anyone really wants so you can't make money from it". I'm not saying this is exciting btw, I'm just saying that it was a silly thing to include just to try and curb the excesses of other editions where you could custom build characters over time (which in fairness I generally preferred) and opens up a host of problems.
And I find the 1 in 800 suggested elsewhere in the thread quite confusing.. as thats actually quite a large proportion really, every town would have a spellcaster at the very least. Plus it seems actually unlikely considering the amount of races that have magic built in to their very existence
Why? Continual Flame specifically says it produces no heat - doesn't use oxygen - and can be covered. It's vastly easier to carry around than even an unlit torch - especially when put on something light like a copper coin.
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So what this amounts to is... 3.5e was better, 5e should be more like that, is that right?
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Nah, if anything what I would be referencing would be pathfinder as that fixed some of the issues of 3.5, while 5e fixed some of the problems of pathfinder (I think spell slots rather than preparing individual spells is a great QOL), but this is an issue I specifically find as an odd choice to do. It's far too breakable an idea, for no purpose I can see other than attempting to create magical limits for the players.