The vast majority of games never even get to level 20 so giving each class even more levels that no one will ever use seems like a bit of a wasted effort when they can be focusing on things people would actually use. The 2024 rules has introduced high level Epic Boon feats so if you did want to go higher than 20 just give your players one of those each time they “level up”
The vast majority of games never even get to level 20 so giving each class even more levels that no one will ever use seems like a bit of a wasted effort when they can be focusing on things people would actually use.
This is a common copy and pasted reply based on some once posted stats.
Yes a vast number of games stop early because the players left high school, or fell out, or hated their DM, didn't, or got bored and didn't want to play D&D any more.
But that is not the hard core center of D&D. Many many games went past 20th level in earlier editions because the stories went on and on and you could just add HP and more spells.
I don't think it is a "wasted effort" to do something for hard core groups that want to play on.
The vast majority of games never even get to level 20 so giving each class even more levels that no one will ever use seems like a bit of a wasted effort when they can be focusing on things people would actually use.
This is a common copy and pasted reply based on some once posted stats.
Yes a vast number of games stop early because the players left high school, or fell out, or hated their DM, didn't, or got bored and didn't want to play D&D any more.
But that is not the hard core center of D&D. Many many games went past 20th level in earlier editions because the stories went on and on and you could just add HP and more spells.
I don't think it is a "wasted effort" to do something for hard core groups that want to play on.
I think that is the point some were making with the epic boon feats. The boon of fortitude adds health. Some boons add resistances and many other things. Main way to add spells though I think is through magic items which can still be gathered as well.
The vast majority of games never even get to level 20 so giving each class even more levels that no one will ever use seems like a bit of a wasted effort when they can be focusing on things people would actually use.
This is a common copy and pasted reply based on some once posted stats.
Yes a vast number of games stop early because the players left high school, or fell out, or hated their DM, didn't, or got bored and didn't want to play D&D any more.
But that is not the hard core center of D&D. Many many games went past 20th level in earlier editions because the stories went on and on and you could just add HP and more spells.
I don't think it is a "wasted effort" to do something for hard core groups that want to play on.
It’s copy and pasted because it’s true, WotC has repeatedly done market research (and once they bought DDB that backed it up too) that the vast majority of campaigns only go to around level 10-12. It may not be your experience but it’s the truth. And any company in their right mind is going to produce products and focus their efforts on stuff that appeals to the widest number of people. If very few people even get to 20 it’s going to be even fewer people who will get to 25 or 30 so why spend time and resources on something for them when instead you can release more stuff for the majority? Even then, a I said above, they’ve actually done something for this small minority in the 2024 rules by offering Epic Boons
I wouldn't recommend going here yet as a new DM. Get used to the low levels then look at the high level stuff and you'll have a much better understanding of what you might want to dohttps://mobdro.bio/
A notable difference about those older editions where you could move past 20th level was that there were no "special things gained at each level" that creates a sense of increasing power.
A 60th level Fighter was pretty much the same as a 20th level fighter -- they just had a lot fewer misses in combat. A 60th level Wizard had a lot more spells they could cast -- but that was only if the DM ever created the extension for the levels. The original games never gave anything beyond that.
Now, personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a thing about going to level 30 -- but as a core function of the game as a whole, not an optional addition to it. That is, power scaling for each of th classes so that instead of 20th level the cap was 30th -- very much like the CR system.
And, with it, I would like to see the CR system scaled by single individuals, with a multiplier for party size, as well, since that would make it tie mor cleanly into the whole system -- but I understand why it is done the way it is.
But, that's me.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
As someone who has actually played with epic levels ( from 2e on) some comments from the gallery: 1) don’t expect it from WotC - for all the reasons given above. 2) before you start trying to build a world with epic levels try playing a few campaigns at levels 15-20. When we tell folks about how powerful they already are it often feels like folks ignore the warning without trying it first - so please try it we aren’t speaking out of our rear ends. 3) yes epic boons etc are a solid way to do more levels after 20, however, when you look at epic level NPCs ( mostly from FR like Elminster) they have more than just a couple of boons.so eventually your going to want something more as well. That means designing epic only progressions for classes. That’s not too hard for casters but much harder for martials. 4) try building some 1e style multiclasses or switch classes first (build a L15 elven fighter/ level 15 mage if you want to see a real Gish) to see what old style epics sort of looked like. If you or someone at your table has the old books build them there first then translate them to 5e. 5) yes I have epic progressions in my game - mostly because I have a large number of my original 1e - 3e PCs that I now use as NPCs and they had reached epic levels in those editions. So making a world for them called for epic capability. I have yet to have an actual PC reach epic levels - we just get tired of playing them somewhere between levels 12 and 18 and move on to new characters in different locations while the old ones “retire” to NPC status.
I agree with you OP. I've never had the problems others seem to have with playing at level 20+. Whether it was in 1e, 2e or in the current edition. And just about every game I have played, we always got to max level. What's the point of having those levels and abilities if you aren't going to use them? If you have a great DM who loves making epic battles and stories for his players, you would have no problem playing in or running a high level campaign. And by the time you got to that level, your campaign should already be fleshed out to where high level characters are already sorted out. The campaigns I've played in and ran see it no different than the Companions of the Hall existing and living amongst the people in Icewind Dale.
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I really wish they would adopt epic level advancement past level 20, like they did in 3.5E. Anyone else?
I never really got that. It's just more levels?
The vast majority of games never even get to level 20 so giving each class even more levels that no one will ever use seems like a bit of a wasted effort when they can be focusing on things people would actually use. The 2024 rules has introduced high level Epic Boon feats so if you did want to go higher than 20 just give your players one of those each time they “level up”
In addition to epic boon feats, the DMG also has Charms and blessings that could be used as well.
This is a common copy and pasted reply based on some once posted stats.
Yes a vast number of games stop early because the players left high school, or fell out, or hated their DM, didn't, or got bored and didn't want to play D&D any more.
But that is not the hard core center of D&D. Many many games went past 20th level in earlier editions because the stories went on and on and you could just add HP and more spells.
I don't think it is a "wasted effort" to do something for hard core groups that want to play on.
I think that is the point some were making with the epic boon feats. The boon of fortitude adds health. Some boons add resistances and many other things. Main way to add spells though I think is through magic items which can still be gathered as well.
It’s copy and pasted because it’s true, WotC has repeatedly done market research (and once they bought DDB that backed it up too) that the vast majority of campaigns only go to around level 10-12. It may not be your experience but it’s the truth. And any company in their right mind is going to produce products and focus their efforts on stuff that appeals to the widest number of people. If very few people even get to 20 it’s going to be even fewer people who will get to 25 or 30 so why spend time and resources on something for them when instead you can release more stuff for the majority? Even then, a I said above, they’ve actually done something for this small minority in the 2024 rules by offering Epic Boons
I wouldn't recommend going here yet as a new DM. Get used to the low levels then look at the high level stuff and you'll have a much better understanding of what you might want to do https://mobdro.bio/
A notable difference about those older editions where you could move past 20th level was that there were no "special things gained at each level" that creates a sense of increasing power.
A 60th level Fighter was pretty much the same as a 20th level fighter -- they just had a lot fewer misses in combat. A 60th level Wizard had a lot more spells they could cast -- but that was only if the DM ever created the extension for the levels. The original games never gave anything beyond that.
Now, personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a thing about going to level 30 -- but as a core function of the game as a whole, not an optional addition to it. That is, power scaling for each of th classes so that instead of 20th level the cap was 30th -- very much like the CR system.
And, with it, I would like to see the CR system scaled by single individuals, with a multiplier for party size, as well, since that would make it tie mor cleanly into the whole system -- but I understand why it is done the way it is.
But, that's me.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
As someone who has actually played with epic levels ( from 2e on) some comments from the gallery:
1) don’t expect it from WotC - for all the reasons given above.
2) before you start trying to build a world with epic levels try playing a few campaigns at levels 15-20. When we tell folks about how powerful they already are it often feels like folks ignore the warning without trying it first - so please try it we aren’t speaking out of our rear ends.
3) yes epic boons etc are a solid way to do more levels after 20, however, when you look at epic level NPCs ( mostly from FR like Elminster) they have more than just a couple of boons.so eventually your going to want something more as well. That means designing epic only progressions for classes. That’s not too hard for casters but much harder for martials.
4) try building some 1e style multiclasses or switch classes first (build a L15 elven fighter/ level 15 mage if you want to see a real Gish) to see what old style epics sort of looked like. If you or someone at your table has the old books build them there first then translate them to 5e.
5) yes I have epic progressions in my game - mostly because I have a large number of my original 1e - 3e PCs that I now use as NPCs and they had reached epic levels in those editions. So making a world for them called for epic capability. I have yet to have an actual PC reach epic levels - we just get tired of playing them somewhere between levels 12 and 18 and move on to new characters in different locations while the old ones “retire” to NPC status.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I agree with you OP. I've never had the problems others seem to have with playing at level 20+. Whether it was in 1e, 2e or in the current edition. And just about every game I have played, we always got to max level. What's the point of having those levels and abilities if you aren't going to use them? If you have a great DM who loves making epic battles and stories for his players, you would have no problem playing in or running a high level campaign. And by the time you got to that level, your campaign should already be fleshed out to where high level characters are already sorted out. The campaigns I've played in and ran see it no different than the Companions of the Hall existing and living amongst the people in Icewind Dale.