It is important to state that I understand the following will have various answers, including "up to the GM" and "it just works". But what's the fun of those? I'd like input from people on the topic of how metaphysics might work, and I've got a few questions.
So, there are several official metals in D&D which imply that the periodic table would exist on a D&D world (more or less). But if true how do the Elemental Planes work? Is the Elemental Plane of Earth any number of solids? Is the Elemental Plane of Water really just the Elemental Plane of H2O? Or is water simply "water" and not able to be broken down further? What makes air breathable? Is it composed of multiple different gasses or is it just simply "elemental air"? What allows the Elemental Plane of Fire to burn if there's no fuel?
And, of course, are the "atoms" (or subatomic particles) the same at all? Metals, for instance, could have several properties that are metaphysical rather then chemical. There could be, for instance, particles of "color", "conductivity", "ductility", "hardness", "malleability" and "reflectiveness". There could even be an Elemental Plane of Toxins which makes air/water/minerals/food dangerous or even deadly.
Basically, if a physicist/chemist from our world were to do experiments in a typical D&D world, what would they find?
If you take that page at its word...no, the periodic table would not work the way it does in real life.
So, adamantine is an alloy of adamant, silver and electrum
Adamant is a pure metal, so is silver. Electrum is an alloy of silver and gold. That's fine, breaking it down to its fundamental roots, adamantine has adamant, silver and gold.
However, it also says that mithral, a metal, can be combined with steel to make adamantine. That's mithral (a metal), iron and carbon to makes adamantine.
Those don't jive. In the second instance, where did the adamant come from? The silver and the gold? In the former, where is the iron or carbon or mithral?
In the real world, that would be describing to very different alloys. In D&D, there seems to be some kind of alchemy going on where mithral, iron and carbon are being transmuted into adamant, silver and gold. This isn't being done by magicians either, but smiths, so it seems to be a fundamental of nature that these things can happen using mundane tools. It could just be someone not understanding the concept of elements and how they work, but taking it as being intended, the periodic table works in a fundamentally different manner.
Which is to say, as a physicist, I can't tell you what you'd find, if that page is accurate to canon. Perhaps someone with a deeper knowledge of lore could help, but I don't have the information needed to even make a guess at this point.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You haven't even begun to scratch the surface of weird. Consider that a zombie is not immune to psychic damage or to sleep. Ask yourself whether a headless zombie could still take psychic damage. A philosopher would have an aneurysm trying to work out where the mind resides in such a being. And if the dead can sleep, a scientist could demonstrate that Hamlet is wrong to equate death with sleep. Also, how does curative magic cure? It seems to have some way of knowing what the idealized state of the character is absent that idealized state and present a state which exists on a spectrum over the life of the creature being healed. Does that mean Platonic forms are a thing? If so, is there a Platonic form of the gibbering mouther--a monster defined by its chaotic nature? Also, why is the Platonic form of a human the uninjured human at their present age, not some younger or older version of that human? It would be tempting to say the answer is simply that Aristotelian physics is a true description of reality, but then we'd all be playing Ars Magicka!
*Edit* BTW, these are the sorts of questions which led to a modern understanding of the world... There's a huge suspension of disbelief problem when you start asking them--namely, why can't a person in Faerun pursue answers to these questions and so develop a deeper understanding of their world? Perhaps Vecna's more powerful than we thought...
IRL theories of matter and elements are "cruder"* than D&D metaphysics where substances in the material plane are influenced by elemental planes, forces of evil and good within the outer planes, and the whole cosmic system enervated by positive (life) and negative (undeath) planes, and anything substantiated from the Far Realm comes with a pretty clear do not touch sign.
Modern periodic table enforces relationship of properties between elements based on among other things atomic structure. There's no such explicit strictures in D&D matter, what with magic and all capable of doing end runs around a lot of laws of physics.
by "cruder" I mean physics posits physical being as substantiated, there's no accounting for other planes of existence giving shape to the prime material plane, whereas in D&D you have cosmological structure where both matter and morality can be seen to have almost Platonic forms on other planes.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Also, how does curative magic cure? It seems to have some way of knowing what the idealized state of the character is absent that idealized state and present a state which exists on a spectrum over the life of the creature being healed.
(quickly whips up an Order Domain cleric who serves a time deity, and whose cure spells involve rewinding time around the wound to before it happened)
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So, there are several official metals in D&D which imply that the periodic table would exist on a D&D world (more or less).
Eh, no. D&D elements are more or less based on Aristotle's theory of elements, and Aristotle did know about a number of metals, though explanations of the difference in ancient/medieval sources are convoluted at best, and it was not obvious that transmuting lead into gold wasn't possible.
D&D is usually played in a world with alchemy, crystal spheres, visitable astral and ethereal planes, real gods, magic, etc etc. Trying to make real world physical and chemical sense of this makes for good and heated forum debates but less meaningful results.
At my table things are what they are in the game world. If a player want to do metallurgic or substance research, I just wing it to what creates fun for my players. Yes, the unobtainium can shure be used to power a spelljamming ship. But then you need the ancient space dwarf artifact forge, rumored to be lost in the depths of Kara-Schwing on the moon Bobo, fabled birthplace of the space dwarf race. And so on.
If you take that page at its word...no, the periodic table would not work the way it does in real life.
So, adamantine is an alloy of adamant, silver and electrum
Adamant is a pure metal, so is silver. Electrum is an alloy of silver and gold. That's fine, breaking it down to its fundamental roots, adamantine has adamant, silver and gold.
However, it also says that mithral, a metal, can be combined with steel to make adamantine. That's mithral (a metal), iron and carbon to makes adamantine.
Those don't jive. In the second instance, where did the adamant come from? The silver and the gold? In the former, where is the iron or carbon or mithral?
In the real world, that would be describing to very different alloys. In D&D, there seems to be some kind of alchemy going on where mithral, iron and carbon are being transmuted into adamant, silver and gold. This isn't being done by magicians either, but smiths, so it seems to be a fundamental of nature that these things can happen using mundane tools. It could just be someone not understanding the concept of elements and how they work, but taking it as being intended, the periodic table works in a fundamentally different manner.
Which is to say, as a physicist, I can't tell you what you'd find, if that page is accurate to canon. Perhaps someone with a deeper knowledge of lore could help, but I don't have the information needed to even make a guess at this point.
Well, it's certainly possible some typo would be made. I just like hearing what other people have to say on this! And it's especially fun when scientists get involved because, on the one hand, this is all relaxing fun as long as no one takes it too seriously. On the other, it's nice to hear what someone that knows what they're about would even start to look for here.
You haven't even begun to scratch the surface of weird. Consider that a zombie is not immune to psychic damage or to sleep. Ask yourself whether a headless zombie could still take psychic damage. A philosopher would have an aneurysm trying to work out where the mind resides in such a being. And if the dead can sleep, a scientist could demonstrate that Hamlet is wrong to equate death with sleep. Also, how does curative magic cure? It seems to have some way of knowing what the idealized state of the character is absent that idealized state and present a state which exists on a spectrum over the life of the creature being healed. Does that mean Platonic forms are a thing? If so, is there a Platonic form of the gibbering mouther--a monster defined by its chaotic nature? Also, why is the Platonic form of a human the uninjured human at their present age, not some younger or older version of that human? It would be tempting to say the answer is simply that Aristotelian physics is a true description of reality, but then we'd all be playing Ars Magicka!
*Edit* BTW, these are the sorts of questions which led to a modern understanding of the world... There's a huge suspension of disbelief problem when you start asking them--namely, why can't a person in Faerun pursue answers to these questions and so develop a deeper understanding of their world? Perhaps Vecna's more powerful than we thought...
Yep. In theory Wizards ought to be looking into these sorts of things. I've always found their inability to harness positive energy odd, since they can pretty easily harness negative energy. I mean, consider healing someone that's polymorphed. Why does it heal as the current state and not the base? Or, when returned, why isn't the healed area still transformed? Is Elemental Water made of Water Elementals? Is water on a Prime elemental Water or even bits of Water elementals? How does blood even work?
Energy (Radiant, Light, Heat, Electricity, Gravity, Radiation, ....)
Void (Vacuum, Necrotic, Cold,...)
I'm not sure Energy would be different than Plasma except in cases like Healing, Gravity, or Time. Acids and Poisons can come in different forms while Plants (Wood) and Animal could be totally different things.
IRL theories of matter and elements are "cruder"* than D&D metaphysics where substances in the material plane are influenced by elemental planes, forces of evil and good within the outer planes, and the whole cosmic system enervated by positive (life) and negative (undeath) planes, and anything substantiated from the Far Realm comes with a pretty clear do not touch sign.
Modern periodic table enforces relationship of properties between elements based on among other things atomic structure. There's no such explicit strictures in D&D matter, what with magic and all capable of doing end runs around a lot of laws of physics.
by "cruder" I mean physics posits physical being as substantiated, there's no accounting for other planes of existence giving shape to the prime material plane, whereas in D&D you have cosmological structure where both matter and morality can be seen to have almost Platonic forms on other planes.
Not to mention souls and an afterlife are real. There are real Elementals, Angels, Demons, etc.
So, there are several official metals in D&D which imply that the periodic table would exist on a D&D world (more or less).
Eh, no. D&D elements are more or less based on Aristotle's theory of elements, and Aristotle did know about a number of metals, though explanations of the difference in ancient/medieval sources are convoluted at best, and it was not obvious that transmuting lead into gold wasn't possible.
Well, yes. And sympathetic/contagious magics can also play a part in things with "like brings like" or using some item a person owned to trace that person down.
The phlogiston theory might be true in a D&D world, so the periodic table might not be correct. Heck, even the concept of an atom might not apply.
Sure, the Expanding Earth Prime theory could also be correct on some level, especially given how demiplanes get formed. Well, the concept of an atom goes back to around the 5th century BCE, and it's been mentioned that things like Platonic solids could also be real and really attached to Aether, Air, Earth, Fire, and Water--and these do exist in one way or another in D&D.
D&D is usually played in a world with alchemy, crystal spheres, visitable astral and ethereal planes, real gods, magic, etc etc. Trying to make real world physical and chemical sense of this makes for good and heated forum debates but less meaningful results.
At my table things are what they are in the game world. If a player want to do metallurgic or substance research, I just wing it to what creates fun for my players. Yes, the unobtainium can shure be used to power a spelljamming ship. But then you need the ancient space dwarf artifact forge, rumored to be lost in the depths of Kara-Schwing on the moon Bobo, fabled birthplace of the space dwarf race. And so on.
Well, the whole point of this was to get a nice debate started and see what everyone thinks on it.
That's cool! Like I said, there's always going to be a certain amount of "because I say so" but it's interesting to hear how people approach this sort of thing.
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It is important to state that I understand the following will have various answers, including "up to the GM" and "it just works". But what's the fun of those? I'd like input from people on the topic of how metaphysics might work, and I've got a few questions.
So, there are several official metals in D&D which imply that the periodic table would exist on a D&D world (more or less). But if true how do the Elemental Planes work? Is the Elemental Plane of Earth any number of solids? Is the Elemental Plane of Water really just the Elemental Plane of H2O? Or is water simply "water" and not able to be broken down further? What makes air breathable? Is it composed of multiple different gasses or is it just simply "elemental air"? What allows the Elemental Plane of Fire to burn if there's no fuel?
And, of course, are the "atoms" (or subatomic particles) the same at all? Metals, for instance, could have several properties that are metaphysical rather then chemical. There could be, for instance, particles of "color", "conductivity", "ductility", "hardness", "malleability" and "reflectiveness". There could even be an Elemental Plane of Toxins which makes air/water/minerals/food dangerous or even deadly.
Basically, if a physicist/chemist from our world were to do experiments in a typical D&D world, what would they find?
If you take that page at its word...no, the periodic table would not work the way it does in real life.
So, adamantine is an alloy of adamant, silver and electrum
Adamant is a pure metal, so is silver. Electrum is an alloy of silver and gold. That's fine, breaking it down to its fundamental roots, adamantine has adamant, silver and gold.
However, it also says that mithral, a metal, can be combined with steel to make adamantine. That's mithral (a metal), iron and carbon to makes adamantine.
Those don't jive. In the second instance, where did the adamant come from? The silver and the gold? In the former, where is the iron or carbon or mithral?
In the real world, that would be describing to very different alloys. In D&D, there seems to be some kind of alchemy going on where mithral, iron and carbon are being transmuted into adamant, silver and gold. This isn't being done by magicians either, but smiths, so it seems to be a fundamental of nature that these things can happen using mundane tools. It could just be someone not understanding the concept of elements and how they work, but taking it as being intended, the periodic table works in a fundamentally different manner.
Which is to say, as a physicist, I can't tell you what you'd find, if that page is accurate to canon. Perhaps someone with a deeper knowledge of lore could help, but I don't have the information needed to even make a guess at this point.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You haven't even begun to scratch the surface of weird. Consider that a zombie is not immune to psychic damage or to sleep. Ask yourself whether a headless zombie could still take psychic damage. A philosopher would have an aneurysm trying to work out where the mind resides in such a being. And if the dead can sleep, a scientist could demonstrate that Hamlet is wrong to equate death with sleep. Also, how does curative magic cure? It seems to have some way of knowing what the idealized state of the character is absent that idealized state and present a state which exists on a spectrum over the life of the creature being healed. Does that mean Platonic forms are a thing? If so, is there a Platonic form of the gibbering mouther--a monster defined by its chaotic nature? Also, why is the Platonic form of a human the uninjured human at their present age, not some younger or older version of that human? It would be tempting to say the answer is simply that Aristotelian physics is a true description of reality, but then we'd all be playing Ars Magicka!
*Edit* BTW, these are the sorts of questions which led to a modern understanding of the world... There's a huge suspension of disbelief problem when you start asking them--namely, why can't a person in Faerun pursue answers to these questions and so develop a deeper understanding of their world? Perhaps Vecna's more powerful than we thought...
I always felt the concepts of elements need an update, admit it is not an 'element' but a state of matter, and throw in the absence as well.
To my mind they should be:
IRL theories of matter and elements are "cruder"* than D&D metaphysics where substances in the material plane are influenced by elemental planes, forces of evil and good within the outer planes, and the whole cosmic system enervated by positive (life) and negative (undeath) planes, and anything substantiated from the Far Realm comes with a pretty clear do not touch sign.
Modern periodic table enforces relationship of properties between elements based on among other things atomic structure. There's no such explicit strictures in D&D matter, what with magic and all capable of doing end runs around a lot of laws of physics.
by "cruder" I mean physics posits physical being as substantiated, there's no accounting for other planes of existence giving shape to the prime material plane, whereas in D&D you have cosmological structure where both matter and morality can be seen to have almost Platonic forms on other planes.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
(quickly whips up an Order Domain cleric who serves a time deity, and whose cure spells involve rewinding time around the wound to before it happened)
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Eh, no. D&D elements are more or less based on Aristotle's theory of elements, and Aristotle did know about a number of metals, though explanations of the difference in ancient/medieval sources are convoluted at best, and it was not obvious that transmuting lead into gold wasn't possible.
The phlogiston theory might be true in a D&D world, so the periodic table might not be correct. Heck, even the concept of an atom might not apply.
D&D is usually played in a world with alchemy, crystal spheres, visitable astral and ethereal planes, real gods, magic, etc etc. Trying to make real world physical and chemical sense of this makes for good and heated forum debates but less meaningful results.
At my table things are what they are in the game world. If a player want to do metallurgic or substance research, I just wing it to what creates fun for my players. Yes, the unobtainium can shure be used to power a spelljamming ship. But then you need the ancient space dwarf artifact forge, rumored to be lost in the depths of Kara-Schwing on the moon Bobo, fabled birthplace of the space dwarf race. And so on.
Well, it's certainly possible some typo would be made. I just like hearing what other people have to say on this! And it's especially fun when scientists get involved because, on the one hand, this is all relaxing fun as long as no one takes it too seriously. On the other, it's nice to hear what someone that knows what they're about would even start to look for here.
Yep. In theory Wizards ought to be looking into these sorts of things. I've always found their inability to harness positive energy odd, since they can pretty easily harness negative energy. I mean, consider healing someone that's polymorphed. Why does it heal as the current state and not the base? Or, when returned, why isn't the healed area still transformed? Is Elemental Water made of Water Elementals? Is water on a Prime elemental Water or even bits of Water elementals? How does blood even work?
I'm not sure Energy would be different than Plasma except in cases like Healing, Gravity, or Time. Acids and Poisons can come in different forms while Plants (Wood) and Animal could be totally different things.
Not to mention souls and an afterlife are real. There are real Elementals, Angels, Demons, etc.
Well, yes. And sympathetic/contagious magics can also play a part in things with "like brings like" or using some item a person owned to trace that person down.
Sure, the Expanding
EarthPrime theory could also be correct on some level, especially given how demiplanes get formed. Well, the concept of an atom goes back to around the 5th century BCE, and it's been mentioned that things like Platonic solids could also be real and really attached to Aether, Air, Earth, Fire, and Water--and these do exist in one way or another in D&D.Well, the whole point of this was to get a nice debate started and see what everyone thinks on it.
That's cool! Like I said, there's always going to be a certain amount of "because I say so" but it's interesting to hear how people approach this sort of thing.