So, First of all, I’m old. Started playing D&D in 1985. Loved Spelljammer when it came out, immediately bought everything. As we played and got more into the mechanics, I found myself asking more and more……”why sails”?
I mean, I get it on sailing ships that can land on water, then sail into port, but look at the Triop. Useless. I say useless as the “sailing” part is done using a helm, and the “sails” lay flat along the outer hull.
Also, a Spelljammer helm, in atmosphere, will fly faster than sails. So, pics of ships with full sails, flying in the sky….why? they would act as a brake. I mean, you could sail, but it is so much slower than SJ speed, so again, ….why?
As SJ helms work always, you don’t need sails, even if you are on the water technically.
So much of the artwork shows the ships with full sail while in space. It looks cool, but tactically, you are opening your ship up to massive damage as in space, the sails do nothing.
Some argue, the Phlo has a current and you could ride said current with sails when the helm or helmsman is down. True and I’ll concede that point for emergency use. However, in the Phlo, unless you are near the sphere you started from or are going to, the distances are so vast that sailing means certain death. Death due to fouled air first, or simply starving, or aging.
I’m looking for some good ship designs that make sense, and have class. Like the ship on the cover of Greyspace or the Eagle Carriers, but slightly more sleek.
I cant draw to save my life but love deckplans and would love to see some new ideas.
Hopefully, with the new Spelljammer due out soon, we will see something fresh. From what Ive seen lately, phoned in copy paste, weak content, I’m not getting my hopes up.
If anyone has any good links for artists, ship art and/ or deckplans, please post.
I'm not yet into the Spelljammer lore so I don't know if what I'm saing makes any real sense, but it might be some relic of time, It might be "Just how you build a ship." When the first steamboats and Ironclads were introduced into the worlds navys they had masts and crowsnests and all that jazz they didn't relly need. But it's just how a ship was build back then. Change needed some time.
The Triop, specifically, is submersible, so the sail arrangement would allow for a fluttering motion similar to that of the gold dragon. It also uses its fins for tactical maneuvering, like a fish.
Otherwise, yeah, in a world with magic propulsion, deployed sails are an artistic choice.
When the first steamboats and Ironclads were introduced into the worlds navys they had masts and crowsnests and all that jazz they didn't relly need. But it's just how a ship was build back then. Change needed some time.
One half of the first ever engagement between two armored steamships. Note the lack of a mast. Similar vessels (referred to categorically as monitors after the first of the design type) often did include masts and not for aesthetic reasons but rather the Monitor lacked a mast probably because it was built in haste to get into service as fast as possible, racing the enemy construction that was simultaneously converting the former Merrimack into the ironclad Virginia. You mention crow's nests, which are exactly why those masts were placed on the ships that don't need sails. The elevated position still granted a huge increase in visual range for not only detecting other vessels but also for communicating with them via semaphore or heliotrope. Handheld telescopes and signal flags were eventually replaced with radar and radios and modern warships all the way up to nuclear powered aircraft carriers still have such equipment on masts elevated above the rest of the ship.
The sails allow a ship to maneuver, much like a sailing ship. The Helm only makes the ship move....."the wind'.
In the 2E rules the captain (not the helmsman) would make the check to do a maneuver by ordering the crew to move the sails (just like a sailing ship).
The sails allow a ship to maneuver, much like a sailing ship. The Helm only makes the ship move....."the wind'.
In the 2E rules the captain (not the helmsman) would make the check to do a maneuver by ordering the crew to move the sails (just like a sailing ship).
Salutations Bloodtide,
Could you provide a reference to the statement about the captain regarding the sails on a Spelljammer and the maneuver checks? Based on what I’m finding, whoever sits in the helm controls the ship. Granted, the captain gives the orders, but the checks for maneuvers are only the helmsman. Ref: War Captains Companion book set.
Sails have naught to do with the maneuvering of Spelljammer, my original point, as all movement is done via the helm.
Though, in the original point, ships which land on water, could then sail normally to allow the mage, or priest, to rest. I suppose, if you were at SJ speeds, and there was something to provide resistance to the sails, one could deploy them for braking or a braking type direction change……hmmm. (New random thought).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Known in other realms as Ranxaeroth.
“Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and good with bar-b-que sauce.” ~Cheshire Dragon
”You can fool most of the people most of the time, but a Sphinx….never.” ~Torwyn Vantalion.
“When the DM smiles, its already to late.” ~many a player.
I'm not yet into the Spelljammer lore so I don't know if what I'm saing makes any real sense, but it might be some relic of time, It might be "Just how you build a ship." When the first steamboats and Ironclads were introduced into the worlds navys they had masts and crowsnests and all that jazz they didn't relly need. But it's just how a ship was build back then. Change needed some time.
I mean that and you know - looks cool.
Salutations Sutlo,
Steamboats and ironclads are vastly differently in type of ship. Ironclads only had a mast for a crows nest application, if that. Mostly, not.
Steamboats, any which traveled in deep water, outsider of rivers, (big lakes or oceans), would have sails. Not just because it was “how ships were made”….but in case the boiler blew a leak, couldn’t hold pressure …..or any other of a long list of issues which would render the ship “dead in the water”. The sails were a backup propulsion system to ensure they weren’t stranded or, if the wind was great, to make better time and take some strain off the engine.
Sails on say a Clipper ship, with a helm, that is flying, has no use for sails once its airborne, not even as a backup. Because, if the helm fails, it becomes a 100 ton rock due to loss of flight ability.
I suppose, if they had gone the route of Treasure Planet or even the Shanara series type of sails, where they collect energy/radiation etc, then yes. Sails would be perfect.
Cloth sails on a spaceship, where there is no air in space…..pointless beyond aesthetics.
Again, these little interjections of mine are mostly my opinion regarding spelljammer mechanics. Mostly, I’m looking for a design of ship, making more sense for the setting.
Everyone has their own opinions, that’s cool. It is D&D after all. There isn’t really a wrong or right answer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Known in other realms as Ranxaeroth.
“Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and good with bar-b-que sauce.” ~Cheshire Dragon
”You can fool most of the people most of the time, but a Sphinx….never.” ~Torwyn Vantalion.
“When the DM smiles, its already to late.” ~many a player.
One other reason for masts and sails would be disguise - even in a place like FR spelljamming is relatively unknown so landing on the ocean and sailing into port without a visible means of sailing is not really smart. Having masts and sails you can put up to look like every other ship out there starts to be a good idea to keep your unusual ship unknown to any potential thieves/pirates/etc. sailing at normal sailing speeds is a good idea as well saving the extra spelljamming speeds for emergencies. As for floor plans don’t limit yourself to just sailing ships. These are space going vehicles so feel free to steal spaceship plans from games and other sources as well. There are physical reasons for the shapes of waterborne, airborne, and space borne ships that enter atmospheres but that still leaves a lot of room for fun play. The only reasons not to have something like a starship enterprise spelljammer is that it holds too freaking many people for a standard DnD team. But something like the Millenium falcon would be reasonable. Same sort of problem for ships like frigates and man of wars vs sloops. The large ships may well be out there as parts of war fleets for spelljamming worlds/nations ( the Vyshantean elves of the crown wars eras?) but most adventuring bands should have smaller craft.
One other reason for masts and sails would be disguise - even in a place like FR spelljamming is relatively unknown so landing on the ocean and sailing into port without a visible means of sailing is not really smart. Having masts and sails you can put up to look like every other ship out there starts to be a good idea to keep your unusual ship unknown to any potential thieves/pirates/etc. sailing at normal sailing speeds is a good idea as well saving the extra spelljamming speeds for emergencies.
Salutations Wi1dBi11,
Great feedback and input. Much appreciated.
One thing to differ with though. According to SJR2: Realspace, Spelljamming is common in the sphere and there are multiple ports on Toril itself. Tradesmen, being one of the more common ships, but ships of all types are seen and regularly. Sails as a disguise doesn’t seem to fit.
Lately, I’ve been looking at the ships from Eberron strangely enough. No sails, powered by captured elementals. The only sail like structure are the steering fins. Perfect example of what I’m speaking about. Putting sails on one of those would be ridiculous, the sail-like fins are practical for the design.
I have also started looking at other games for deck plans, as I cant draw to save my life. The Alternity setting might see the light of day from my collection soon methinks.
Yeah, most adventuring bands would have smaller ships as a high tonnage equals a rapidly declining movement class. If you cant move fast, you’re just a target.
Again, thanks for the ideas and the feedback. Much appreciated.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Known in other realms as Ranxaeroth.
“Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and good with bar-b-que sauce.” ~Cheshire Dragon
”You can fool most of the people most of the time, but a Sphinx….never.” ~Torwyn Vantalion.
“When the DM smiles, its already to late.” ~many a player.
Yes they are “ common” in realmspace and on Toril and yes Waterdeep is one of the ports they frequent. However they are rare enough that the average citizen of Waterdeep ( let alone Toril) has no idea they exist. At best if they have even heard of them they think they are some special type of the legendary Halruaan sky ship.
Salutations,
So, First of all, I’m old. Started playing D&D in 1985. Loved Spelljammer when it came out, immediately bought everything. As we played and got more into the mechanics, I found myself asking more and more……”why sails”?
I mean, I get it on sailing ships that can land on water, then sail into port, but look at the Triop. Useless. I say useless as the “sailing” part is done using a helm, and the “sails” lay flat along the outer hull.
Also, a Spelljammer helm, in atmosphere, will fly faster than sails. So, pics of ships with full sails, flying in the sky….why? they would act as a brake. I mean, you could sail, but it is so much slower than SJ speed, so again, ….why?
As SJ helms work always, you don’t need sails, even if you are on the water technically.
So much of the artwork shows the ships with full sail while in space. It looks cool, but tactically, you are opening your ship up to massive damage as in space, the sails do nothing.
Some argue, the Phlo has a current and you could ride said current with sails when the helm or helmsman is down. True and I’ll concede that point for emergency use. However, in the Phlo, unless you are near the sphere you started from or are going to, the distances are so vast that sailing means certain death. Death due to fouled air first, or simply starving, or aging.
I’m looking for some good ship designs that make sense, and have class. Like the ship on the cover of Greyspace or the Eagle Carriers, but slightly more sleek.
I cant draw to save my life but love deckplans and would love to see some new ideas.
Hopefully, with the new Spelljammer due out soon, we will see something fresh. From what Ive seen lately, phoned in copy paste, weak content, I’m not getting my hopes up.
If anyone has any good links for artists, ship art and/ or deckplans, please post.
Thank you for your input.
Known in other realms as Ranxaeroth.
“Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and good with bar-b-que sauce.” ~Cheshire Dragon
”You can fool most of the people most of the time, but a Sphinx….never.” ~Torwyn Vantalion.
“When the DM smiles, its already to late.” ~many a player.
I'm not yet into the Spelljammer lore so I don't know if what I'm saing makes any real sense, but it might be some relic of time, It might be "Just how you build a ship." When the first steamboats and Ironclads were introduced into the worlds navys they had masts and crowsnests and all that jazz they didn't relly need. But it's just how a ship was build back then. Change needed some time.
I mean that and you know - looks cool.
The Triop, specifically, is submersible, so the sail arrangement would allow for a fluttering motion similar to that of the gold dragon. It also uses its fins for tactical maneuvering, like a fish.
Otherwise, yeah, in a world with magic propulsion, deployed sails are an artistic choice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Monitor
One half of the first ever engagement between two armored steamships. Note the lack of a mast. Similar vessels (referred to categorically as monitors after the first of the design type) often did include masts and not for aesthetic reasons but rather the Monitor lacked a mast probably because it was built in haste to get into service as fast as possible, racing the enemy construction that was simultaneously converting the former Merrimack into the ironclad Virginia. You mention crow's nests, which are exactly why those masts were placed on the ships that don't need sails. The elevated position still granted a huge increase in visual range for not only detecting other vessels but also for communicating with them via semaphore or heliotrope. Handheld telescopes and signal flags were eventually replaced with radar and radios and modern warships all the way up to nuclear powered aircraft carriers still have such equipment on masts elevated above the rest of the ship.
Maneuverability.
The sails allow a ship to maneuver, much like a sailing ship. The Helm only makes the ship move....."the wind'.
In the 2E rules the captain (not the helmsman) would make the check to do a maneuver by ordering the crew to move the sails (just like a sailing ship).
Salutations Bloodtide,
Could you provide a reference to the statement about the captain regarding the sails on a Spelljammer and the maneuver checks? Based on what I’m finding, whoever sits in the helm controls the ship. Granted, the captain gives the orders, but the checks for maneuvers are only the helmsman. Ref: War Captains Companion book set.
Sails have naught to do with the maneuvering of Spelljammer, my original point, as all movement is done via the helm.
Though, in the original point, ships which land on water, could then sail normally to allow the mage, or priest, to rest. I suppose, if you were at SJ speeds, and there was something to provide resistance to the sails, one could deploy them for braking or a braking type direction change……hmmm. (New random thought).
Known in other realms as Ranxaeroth.
“Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and good with bar-b-que sauce.” ~Cheshire Dragon
”You can fool most of the people most of the time, but a Sphinx….never.” ~Torwyn Vantalion.
“When the DM smiles, its already to late.” ~many a player.
Salutations Sutlo,
Steamboats and ironclads are vastly differently in type of ship. Ironclads only had a mast for a crows nest application, if that. Mostly, not.
Steamboats, any which traveled in deep water, outsider of rivers, (big lakes or oceans), would have sails. Not just because it was “how ships were made”….but in case the boiler blew a leak, couldn’t hold pressure …..or any other of a long list of issues which would render the ship “dead in the water”. The sails were a backup propulsion system to ensure they weren’t stranded or, if the wind was great, to make better time and take some strain off the engine.
Sails on say a Clipper ship, with a helm, that is flying, has no use for sails once its airborne, not even as a backup. Because, if the helm fails, it becomes a 100 ton rock due to loss of flight ability.
I suppose, if they had gone the route of Treasure Planet or even the Shanara series type of sails, where they collect energy/radiation etc, then yes. Sails would be perfect.
Cloth sails on a spaceship, where there is no air in space…..pointless beyond aesthetics.
Again, these little interjections of mine are mostly my opinion regarding spelljammer mechanics. Mostly, I’m looking for a design of ship, making more sense for the setting.
Everyone has their own opinions, that’s cool. It is D&D after all. There isn’t really a wrong or right answer.
Known in other realms as Ranxaeroth.
“Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and good with bar-b-que sauce.” ~Cheshire Dragon
”You can fool most of the people most of the time, but a Sphinx….never.” ~Torwyn Vantalion.
“When the DM smiles, its already to late.” ~many a player.
One other reason for masts and sails would be disguise - even in a place like FR spelljamming is relatively unknown so landing on the ocean and sailing into port without a visible means of sailing is not really smart. Having masts and sails you can put up to look like every other ship out there starts to be a good idea to keep your unusual ship unknown to any potential thieves/pirates/etc. sailing at normal sailing speeds is a good idea as well saving the extra spelljamming speeds for emergencies. As for floor plans don’t limit yourself to just sailing ships. These are space going vehicles so feel free to steal spaceship plans from games and other sources as well. There are physical reasons for the shapes of waterborne, airborne, and space borne ships that enter atmospheres but that still leaves a lot of room for fun play. The only reasons not to have something like a starship enterprise spelljammer is that it holds too freaking many people for a standard DnD team. But something like the Millenium falcon would be reasonable. Same sort of problem for ships like frigates and man of wars vs sloops. The large ships may well be out there as parts of war fleets for spelljamming worlds/nations ( the Vyshantean elves of the crown wars eras?) but most adventuring bands should have smaller craft.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Salutations Wi1dBi11,
Great feedback and input. Much appreciated.
One thing to differ with though. According to SJR2: Realspace, Spelljamming is common in the sphere and there are multiple ports on Toril itself. Tradesmen, being one of the more common ships, but ships of all types are seen and regularly. Sails as a disguise doesn’t seem to fit.
Lately, I’ve been looking at the ships from Eberron strangely enough. No sails, powered by captured elementals. The only sail like structure are the steering fins. Perfect example of what I’m speaking about. Putting sails on one of those would be ridiculous, the sail-like fins are practical for the design.
I have also started looking at other games for deck plans, as I cant draw to save my life. The Alternity setting might see the light of day from my collection soon methinks.
Yeah, most adventuring bands would have smaller ships as a high tonnage equals a rapidly declining movement class. If you cant move fast, you’re just a target.
Again, thanks for the ideas and the feedback. Much appreciated.
Known in other realms as Ranxaeroth.
“Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and good with bar-b-que sauce.” ~Cheshire Dragon
”You can fool most of the people most of the time, but a Sphinx….never.” ~Torwyn Vantalion.
“When the DM smiles, its already to late.” ~many a player.
Yes they are “ common” in realmspace and on Toril and yes Waterdeep is one of the ports they frequent. However they are rare enough that the average citizen of Waterdeep ( let alone Toril) has no idea they exist. At best if they have even heard of them they think they are some special type of the legendary Halruaan sky ship.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There is an entire spelljamming wiki I just discovered 😁
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.