I think it's cool, but I wish it felt a little more complete. Like most of the planes, it feels a bit like a concept sketch, not a real place. It does get my imagination going though.
I think it's cool, but I wish it felt a little more complete. Like most of the planes, it feels a bit like a concept sketch, not a real place. It does get my imagination going though.
What do you feel the more wholesome planes have that planes like mechanus lack? Social identity, an economy, unique characters created from their environment, guidelines to describe how these things take form?
I think it's cool, but I wish it felt a little more complete. Like most of the planes, it feels a bit like a concept sketch, not a real place. It does get my imagination going though.
What do you feel the more wholesome planes have that planes like mechanus lack? Social identity, an economy, unique characters created from their environment, guidelines to describe how these things take form?
Mechanus had a bit more background information in the 2nd edition supplement "Planes of Law" and the 2nd edtion adventure compilation "The Great Modron March." Both can be found on Dmsguild.com.
However, in terms of "Wholesome" no, that's not how I would describe it. Ordered to the Nth degree, where every second on the clock has a distinct, unique name, and where not following the rules have unforgiving penalties. It is Law/Order personified in the extreme.
Huge fan of Mechanus and Modrons (of course, I wrote the official 3.5 stats for modrons in Dragon magazine, so I'm biased). ;) It's nice that they keep popping up here and there, but I'd love for WotC to give all of the Outer Planes and planar paragon races more attention in this edition beyond just demons & devils. But at least most of the 2e Planescape books are 90% lore and 10% mechanics, so they are still very useful even in 5e.
Huge fan of Mechanus and Modrons (of course, I wrote the official 3.5 stats for modrons in Dragon magazine, so I'm biased). ;) It's nice that they keep popping up here and there, but I'd love for WotC to give all of the Outer Planes and planar paragon races more attention in this edition beyond just demons & devils. But at least most of the 2e Planescape books are 90% lore and 10% mechanics, so they are still very useful even in 5e.
I suppose part of it because, it's easy to think of Modrons and Slaadi as occassional foes to mortal races, and Baatorian, Yugoloths, and Tanar'ri as perenial foes. With celestials and their ilk, you just don't seem to see that, unless are dealing with a fall (see Trias, or Zariel). But the lore of different organizations or theocrasies would be nice. Keith Baker did a slice in his DMSguild book for Eberron and it could go even deeper. We really could use one for the general other branches of D&D comsology and provide ideas on how to integrate them if the DM chose. (Like how does Krynn's align/not align with FR? ).
I really like the lore. I even like how the lore evovles (usually. Not a fan of the faction war). And there are a lot of folks who like a consistnent space to refer to, and determine how their worlds fit into it (or not...its all optional)
I enjoy the idea of Mechanus and modrons, but I'm not thrilled with how modrons are frequently portrayed as incredibly stupid, more prone to causing chaos than enforcing the law. That's part of why I preferred the inevitables as a concept to the modrons.
I think it's cool, but I wish it felt a little more complete. Like most of the planes, it feels a bit like a concept sketch, not a real place. It does get my imagination going though.
What do you feel the more wholesome planes have that planes like mechanus lack? Social identity, an economy, unique characters created from their environment, guidelines to describe how these things take form?
Yeah, stuff like that. It feels like if you go to the Plane of Fire, at least, you might end up in some mountains with giants, or a sea of magma with trade ships sailing across it, or near the City of Brass. There's some detail. Not as much as the Material plane, but still, some. But Mechanus is like, an endless expanse of the same thing: giant gears with little robots walking around. I'm sure that's not exactly accurate, but 5e doesn't have much about it, is all. I seem to recall there's a gigantic courthouse. So that's two things, then. The gears and the courthouse. Lol.
I think it's cool, but I wish it felt a little more complete. Like most of the planes, it feels a bit like a concept sketch, not a real place. It does get my imagination going though.
What do you feel the more wholesome planes have that planes like mechanus lack? Social identity, an economy, unique characters created from their environment, guidelines to describe how these things take form?
Yeah, stuff like that. It feels like if you go to the Plane of Fire, at least, you might end up in some mountains with giants, or a sea of magma with trade ships sailing across it, or near the City of Brass. There's some detail. Not as much as the Material plane, but still, some. But Mechanus is like, an endless expanse of the same thing: giant gears with little robots walking around. I'm sure that's not exactly accurate, but 5e doesn't have much about it, is all. I seem to recall there's a gigantic courthouse. So that's two things, then. The gears and the courthouse. Lol.
Do you feel that mechanus is a concept for neutral-order that hinders itself creatively?
I think it's cool, but I wish it felt a little more complete. Like most of the planes, it feels a bit like a concept sketch, not a real place. It does get my imagination going though.
What do you feel the more wholesome planes have that planes like mechanus lack? Social identity, an economy, unique characters created from their environment, guidelines to describe how these things take form?
Yeah, stuff like that. It feels like if you go to the Plane of Fire, at least, you might end up in some mountains with giants, or a sea of magma with trade ships sailing across it, or near the City of Brass. There's some detail. Not as much as the Material plane, but still, some. But Mechanus is like, an endless expanse of the same thing: giant gears with little robots walking around. I'm sure that's not exactly accurate, but 5e doesn't have much about it, is all. I seem to recall there's a gigantic courthouse. So that's two things, then. The gears and the courthouse. Lol.
Do you feel that mechanus is a concept for neutral-order that hinders itself creatively?
Nah, I don't think there's anything wrong with the foundations. It's just that the foundations are all there is. Again, probably not true: I'm sure there was a 3.5e book that expanded it, but I've never seen it.
I think it's cool, but I wish it felt a little more complete. Like most of the planes, it feels a bit like a concept sketch, not a real place. It does get my imagination going though.
What do you feel the more wholesome planes have that planes like mechanus lack? Social identity, an economy, unique characters created from their environment, guidelines to describe how these things take form?
Yeah, stuff like that. It feels like if you go to the Plane of Fire, at least, you might end up in some mountains with giants, or a sea of magma with trade ships sailing across it, or near the City of Brass. There's some detail. Not as much as the Material plane, but still, some. But Mechanus is like, an endless expanse of the same thing: giant gears with little robots walking around. I'm sure that's not exactly accurate, but 5e doesn't have much about it, is all. I seem to recall there's a gigantic courthouse. So that's two things, then. The gears and the courthouse. Lol.
Do you feel that mechanus is a concept for neutral-order that hinders itself creatively?
Nah, I don't think there's anything wrong with the foundations. It's just that the foundations are all there is. Again, probably not true: I'm sure there was a 3.5e book that expanded it, but I've never seen it.
There is the second edition set Planes of Law that covers several planes but includes a 32 page book on Mechanus. I think that’s probably the most detail on the plane they’ve had yet. It mentions some other interesting places like a town so focused on order of the universe that time is meaningless to them, a myconid realm, a contested layer that recently moved over from Arcadia, etc. It’s not a ton of info but it’s far more than in other editions.
Personally: I love Mechanus as a concept/location design. THe Modrons on the other hand are sort of horribly designed in their current incarnation honestly... They just don't quite match the overall look or indeed have a consistent look within themselves.
Personally: I love Mechanus as a concept/location design. THe Modrons on the other hand are sort of horribly designed in their current incarnation honestly... They just don't quite match the overall look or indeed have a consistent look within themselves.
I feel a collector theme might work for the modrons e.g. brainiac (DC) or Trazyn the infinite (Warhammer 40k). Set on collecting things and isolating them and maintaining absolute control over them.
I initially find modrons to be amusing…even “The Great Modron March” has a whimsical feeling behind the concept.
And then I realize they come from a plane that asserts order in it’s entirety; and you realize with dawning horror that you and your characters start to look a lot like noisy flaws to them.
I would not want to visit Mechanus in a campaign for that very reason…it is perhaps one of the more dangerous places for a party to visit. If I did, it would have to be a VERY clandestine visit…which could be fun. Hiding from modron scouts, sneaking inside clockwork structures, etc…
Outside of Mechanus, though, encounters with modrons can be interesting…they are no longer on their native plane of order; so they must deal with the naturally chaotic aspects of the other planes.
Encounters do not have to be violent, either…if you rationalize that conflict will only perpetuate further chaos for them, you can talk them down & maybe even have a conversation with them.
I’ve had sessions where they show up once or twice; very eager to work them into my own campaign as a DM.
I initially find modrons to be amusing…even “The Great Modron March” has a whimsical feeling behind the concept.
And then I realize they come from a plane that asserts order in it’s entirety; and you realize with dawning horror that you and your characters start to look a lot like noisy flaws to them.
I would not want to visit Mechanus in a campaign for that very reason…it is perhaps one of the more dangerous places for a party to visit. If I did, it would have to be a VERY clandestine visit…which could be fun. Hiding from modron scouts, sneaking inside clockwork structures, etc…
Outside of Mechanus, though, encounters with modrons can be interesting…they are no longer on their native plane of order; so they must deal with the naturally chaotic aspects of the other planes.
Encounters do not have to be violent, either…if you rationalize that conflict will only perpetuate further chaos for them, you can talk them down & maybe even have a conversation with them.
I’ve had sessions where they show up once or twice; very eager to work them into my own campaign as a DM.
Do you believe that modrons have a radical compulsion to conform things to their idea of "order" and how does this manifest? Do they just murder anything in mechanus that isn't a modron, would it not make sense that modrons have certain laws for handling foreigners of mechanus?
I initially find modrons to be amusing…even “The Great Modron March” has a whimsical feeling behind the concept.
And then I realize they come from a plane that asserts order in it’s entirety; and you realize with dawning horror that you and your characters start to look a lot like noisy flaws to them.
I would not want to visit Mechanus in a campaign for that very reason…it is perhaps one of the more dangerous places for a party to visit. If I did, it would have to be a VERY clandestine visit…which could be fun. Hiding from modron scouts, sneaking inside clockwork structures, etc…
Outside of Mechanus, though, encounters with modrons can be interesting…they are no longer on their native plane of order; so they must deal with the naturally chaotic aspects of the other planes.
Encounters do not have to be violent, either…if you rationalize that conflict will only perpetuate further chaos for them, you can talk them down & maybe even have a conversation with them.
I’ve had sessions where they show up once or twice; very eager to work them into my own campaign as a DM.
Do you believe that modrons have a radical compulsion to conform things to their idea of "order" and how does this manifest? Do they just murder anything in mechanus that isn't a modron, would it not make sense that modrons have certain laws for handling foreigners of mechanus?
That’s a real interesting question that depends on what the DM wants to do with them.
I feel like if you’re on the Modron’s home-turf, Mechanus, then they probably have stricter reactions to outsiders.
At the same time, the Primarch of Mechanus is aware of other worlds, and that all the other living creatures have vastly different behaviors.
Personally, I interpret the Primarch as having a “grand master plan”, where these seemingly-chaotic realms actually serve an orderly purpose…they’re just another cog in the clockwork, so to speak.
These gives modron encounters a bit more flexibility…yes, they probably have programming that allows them to interact with outsiders without blatantly murdering them every time. Other times, they might seek to use adventurers as allies to achieve a specific objective…once completed, they disappear and move on to their next objective.
On Mechanus, a public encounter need not be violent, either…the adventurers just have to obey their laws: stay inside the lines, keep off the grass, fill out the paperwork, etc…they probably DO have laws with dealing with outsiders.
That’s a real interesting question that depends on what the DM wants to do with them.
I feel like if you’re on the Modron’s home-turf, Mechanus, then they probably have stricter reactions to outsiders.
At the same time, the Primarch of Mechanus is aware of other worlds, and that all the other living creatures have vastly different behaviors.
Personally, I interpret the Primarch as having a “grand master plan”, where these seemingly-chaotic realms actually serve an orderly purpose…they’re just another cog in the clockwork, so to speak.
These gives modron encounters a bit more flexibility…yes, they probably have programming that allows them to interact with outsiders without blatantly murdering them every time. Other times, they might seek to use adventurers as allies to achieve a specific objective…once completed, they disappear and move on to their next objective.
On Mechanus, a public encounter need not be violent, either…the adventurers just have to obey their laws: stay inside the lines, keep off the grass, fill out the paperwork, etc…they probably DO have laws with dealing with outsiders.
Do you think this rule system may be beaurocratic or efficient? Ultimately I think order can be subjective when it is based on the question "order for who?" If order is determined by someone's OCD, then order would be based on arbitrary standards, if it's order for a dictator then absolute subservience would be order, if order is something more internal, like tranquility, then it would be about the mind set and lifestyles I guess. Whether and if order is viewed as social or personal principles and based on subjective or objectives forms significantly impacts how and what order is.
Ultimately I think order can be subjective when it is based on the question "order for who?" If order is determined by someone's OCD, then order would be based on arbitrary standards, if it's order for a dictator then absolute subservience would be order, if order is something more internal, like tranquility, then it would be about the mind set and lifestyles I guess. Whether and if order is viewed as social or personal principles and based on subjective or objectives forms significantly impacts how and what order is.
The order of the universe (multiverse?) encompasses basically everything. Presumably it has no power over chaos, but my point is it's not disrupted or bothered by the ordinary strangenesses of life. However, on Mechanus itself, I'd imagine you would encounter some friction behaving like a normal person, because the plane and its denizens have jobs to do. They're busy and their schedules are very precisely tuned. As I understand it, Primus basically gives the orders on Mechanus, so whatever his goals are, that's what shapes the structures of the plane. It's similar to a dictatorship, but I don't think modrons are capable of desiring freedom, at least under ordinary circumstances.
I'm just not really sure what Primus wants. The creatures of his plane don't invade or occupy other territories, so I don't think he cares about imposing rules onto other planes. They don't really infiltrate or manipulate, so it doesn't seem like he's trying to build political power. They don't seek out magic or make alliances, they don't crusade against opposing viewpoints or experiment with technology, they don't dig up the past. When creatures do leave Mechanus, it seems to be for one of two reasons. 1) Take someone to court, or 2) Observe the state of the world.
So my impression is that Primus wants to know everything about everything. I think that's his main drive. He's afraid of interfering with anything because it will introduce a bias into his data. But he needs to ensure he continues to exist. So he's pulled in two directions.
Encounters do not have to be violent, either…if you rationalize that conflict will only perpetuate further chaos for them, you can talk them down & maybe even have a conversation with them.
You have to consider the fact that they only speak Modron and that no other creatures naturally speak it outside of those that specifically know All languages. Creatures that can speak telepathically can go around it, but it's rare for player characters to have access to such an ability. Not even casting comprehend languages can allow you to speak with a modron, as the only thing it does is allow you to comprehend what you hear and read, not speak and write in any language you want. It's also against the RAW for a player to choose Modron as a language for their character. And even if it was allowed, who in their right mind would pick such a ridiculously niche language that would most likely never be of use in any given campaign? So for the vast majority of the time, it's impossible for player characters to converse with a modron.
Do you believe Mechanus as a whole is a place that is cool or stupid? Boring or interesting? Relaxing or cringe?
I think it's cool, but I wish it felt a little more complete. Like most of the planes, it feels a bit like a concept sketch, not a real place. It does get my imagination going though.
What do you feel the more wholesome planes have that planes like mechanus lack? Social identity, an economy, unique characters created from their environment, guidelines to describe how these things take form?
Mechanus had a bit more background information in the 2nd edition supplement "Planes of Law" and the 2nd edtion adventure compilation "The Great Modron March." Both can be found on Dmsguild.com.
However, in terms of "Wholesome" no, that's not how I would describe it. Ordered to the Nth degree, where every second on the clock has a distinct, unique name, and where not following the rules have unforgiving penalties. It is Law/Order personified in the extreme.
Huge fan of Mechanus and Modrons (of course, I wrote the official 3.5 stats for modrons in Dragon magazine, so I'm biased). ;) It's nice that they keep popping up here and there, but I'd love for WotC to give all of the Outer Planes and planar paragon races more attention in this edition beyond just demons & devils. But at least most of the 2e Planescape books are 90% lore and 10% mechanics, so they are still very useful even in 5e.
I suppose part of it because, it's easy to think of Modrons and Slaadi as occassional foes to mortal races, and Baatorian, Yugoloths, and Tanar'ri as perenial foes. With celestials and their ilk, you just don't seem to see that, unless are dealing with a fall (see Trias, or Zariel). But the lore of different organizations or theocrasies would be nice. Keith Baker did a slice in his DMSguild book for Eberron and it could go even deeper. We really could use one for the general other branches of D&D comsology and provide ideas on how to integrate them if the DM chose. (Like how does Krynn's align/not align with FR? ).
I really like the lore. I even like how the lore evovles (usually. Not a fan of the faction war). And there are a lot of folks who like a consistnent space to refer to, and determine how their worlds fit into it (or not...its all optional)
I enjoy the idea of Mechanus and modrons, but I'm not thrilled with how modrons are frequently portrayed as incredibly stupid, more prone to causing chaos than enforcing the law. That's part of why I preferred the inevitables as a concept to the modrons.
Yeah, stuff like that. It feels like if you go to the Plane of Fire, at least, you might end up in some mountains with giants, or a sea of magma with trade ships sailing across it, or near the City of Brass. There's some detail. Not as much as the Material plane, but still, some. But Mechanus is like, an endless expanse of the same thing: giant gears with little robots walking around. I'm sure that's not exactly accurate, but 5e doesn't have much about it, is all. I seem to recall there's a gigantic courthouse. So that's two things, then. The gears and the courthouse. Lol.
Do you feel that mechanus is a concept for neutral-order that hinders itself creatively?
:-)
i am a human being.
Nah, I don't think there's anything wrong with the foundations. It's just that the foundations are all there is. Again, probably not true: I'm sure there was a 3.5e book that expanded it, but I've never seen it.
There is the second edition set Planes of Law that covers several planes but includes a 32 page book on Mechanus. I think that’s probably the most detail on the plane they’ve had yet. It mentions some other interesting places like a town so focused on order of the universe that time is meaningless to them, a myconid realm, a contested layer that recently moved over from Arcadia, etc. It’s not a ton of info but it’s far more than in other editions.
Personally: I love Mechanus as a concept/location design. THe Modrons on the other hand are sort of horribly designed in their current incarnation honestly... They just don't quite match the overall look or indeed have a consistent look within themselves.
I feel a collector theme might work for the modrons e.g. brainiac (DC) or Trazyn the infinite (Warhammer 40k). Set on collecting things and isolating them and maintaining absolute control over them.
I initially find modrons to be amusing…even “The Great Modron March” has a whimsical feeling behind the concept.
And then I realize they come from a plane that asserts order in it’s entirety; and you realize with dawning horror that you and your characters start to look a lot like noisy flaws to them.
I would not want to visit Mechanus in a campaign for that very reason…it is perhaps one of the more dangerous places for a party to visit. If I did, it would have to be a VERY clandestine visit…which could be fun. Hiding from modron scouts, sneaking inside clockwork structures, etc…
Outside of Mechanus, though, encounters with modrons can be interesting…they are no longer on their native plane of order; so they must deal with the naturally chaotic aspects of the other planes.
Encounters do not have to be violent, either…if you rationalize that conflict will only perpetuate further chaos for them, you can talk them down & maybe even have a conversation with them.
I’ve had sessions where they show up once or twice; very eager to work them into my own campaign as a DM.
Do you believe that modrons have a radical compulsion to conform things to their idea of "order" and how does this manifest? Do they just murder anything in mechanus that isn't a modron, would it not make sense that modrons have certain laws for handling foreigners of mechanus?
That’s a real interesting question that depends on what the DM wants to do with them.
I feel like if you’re on the Modron’s home-turf, Mechanus, then they probably have stricter reactions to outsiders.
At the same time, the Primarch of Mechanus is aware of other worlds, and that all the other living creatures have vastly different behaviors.
Personally, I interpret the Primarch as having a “grand master plan”, where these seemingly-chaotic realms actually serve an orderly purpose…they’re just another cog in the clockwork, so to speak.
These gives modron encounters a bit more flexibility…yes, they probably have programming that allows them to interact with outsiders without blatantly murdering them every time. Other times, they might seek to use adventurers as allies to achieve a specific objective…once completed, they disappear and move on to their next objective.
On Mechanus, a public encounter need not be violent, either…the adventurers just have to obey their laws: stay inside the lines, keep off the grass, fill out the paperwork, etc…they probably DO have laws with dealing with outsiders.
Do you think this rule system may be beaurocratic or efficient? Ultimately I think order can be subjective when it is based on the question "order for who?" If order is determined by someone's OCD, then order would be based on arbitrary standards, if it's order for a dictator then absolute subservience would be order, if order is something more internal, like tranquility, then it would be about the mind set and lifestyles I guess. Whether and if order is viewed as social or personal principles and based on subjective or objectives forms significantly impacts how and what order is.
The order of the universe (multiverse?) encompasses basically everything. Presumably it has no power over chaos, but my point is it's not disrupted or bothered by the ordinary strangenesses of life. However, on Mechanus itself, I'd imagine you would encounter some friction behaving like a normal person, because the plane and its denizens have jobs to do. They're busy and their schedules are very precisely tuned. As I understand it, Primus basically gives the orders on Mechanus, so whatever his goals are, that's what shapes the structures of the plane. It's similar to a dictatorship, but I don't think modrons are capable of desiring freedom, at least under ordinary circumstances.
I'm just not really sure what Primus wants. The creatures of his plane don't invade or occupy other territories, so I don't think he cares about imposing rules onto other planes. They don't really infiltrate or manipulate, so it doesn't seem like he's trying to build political power. They don't seek out magic or make alliances, they don't crusade against opposing viewpoints or experiment with technology, they don't dig up the past. When creatures do leave Mechanus, it seems to be for one of two reasons. 1) Take someone to court, or 2) Observe the state of the world.
So my impression is that Primus wants to know everything about everything. I think that's his main drive. He's afraid of interfering with anything because it will introduce a bias into his data. But he needs to ensure he continues to exist. So he's pulled in two directions.
You have to consider the fact that they only speak Modron and that no other creatures naturally speak it outside of those that specifically know All languages. Creatures that can speak telepathically can go around it, but it's rare for player characters to have access to such an ability. Not even casting comprehend languages can allow you to speak with a modron, as the only thing it does is allow you to comprehend what you hear and read, not speak and write in any language you want. It's also against the RAW for a player to choose Modron as a language for their character. And even if it was allowed, who in their right mind would pick such a ridiculously niche language that would most likely never be of use in any given campaign? So for the vast majority of the time, it's impossible for player characters to converse with a modron.
You forgot 3) when a wild magic sorcerer accidentally summons one.
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