Best of your knowledge, is there any faction in some D&D worlds / planes that came out with an attempt to a systematic theory of magic?
(in the same way in which modern scientists are theorizing quantum physics or even a more primitive set of theories like Newtonian or even Aristotelian logic – for magic).
Something like if magic is a wave, a set of subatomic particles (taumions?), a field etc?
And, according to these theories…with more practical implication like… how spellcasters draw from magic while they are sleeping? Or where artifacts with permanent magic are absorbing magic from?
While I get that this is probably above knowledge of the average Wizard in Luskan, I think that more advanced magic societies, like Netheril, Thay or the Wizards of Eberron, and other Magocracies in the universe, must have worked how some theoretic explanation , given how much energy their civilizations are investing in perfecting their magic knowledge and capabilities is not possible that they are working exclusively on practical applications. (It would be like a society of engineering bros never having thought about the basic laws of thermodynamics: unlikely).
Such a theory certainly exists in Eberron, where magic is science, though what that theory is has never been laid out (and probably differs between cultures). In my game, I describe magic as a set of fields, like the electromagnetic field, one for each school of magic. A spell is a unique combination of excitations of these fields at unique frequencies. What it means for a spell to be an evocation spell (or whatever) is that its effect primarily but not exclusively involves the “evocation field.”
In Exploring Eberron, there is a chapter dealing with the workings of magic and the difference between arcane and divine (and how does it work for warforged when worshipping the Lord of Blades) in Eberron.
I think FR uses the weave, but maybe not anymore, I don’t keep up with that continuity. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Weave But it’s definitely table dependent. Many, many people don’t use published settings, and magic in those worlds is whatever the DM says it is.
Spellcasters in The Forgotten Realms especially have a very clear understanding of how all magic comes from manipulating the Weave. It has had very dramatic and devastating effects on the world. How much that applies to other settings fluctuates.
I think FR uses the weave, but maybe not anymore, I don’t keep up with that continuity. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Weave But it’s definitely table dependent. Many, many people don’t use published settings, and magic in those worlds is whatever the DM says it is.
I know about the Wave, but does anyone managed to explain how it worked more in detail?
Because it seems me more like that the wave is described in a mystic intuitive fashion, but not like it’s properties, if it’s related to normal cause/effect or to synchronies, etc…
In retrospective (with the eyes of a person living in a scientific based society, like our) The Wave seems to be either some sort of probabilistic state-field, with the ability to alter reality (messing with quantum physics?) or a sort of energy permeating the planes (something along to dark energy or a like a radiation) or a fundamental force binding planes (a fifth one after gravity strong and weak force and electromagnetism). At least based on the description, but they seem more mystic (like a how a sorcerer would perceive it) than someone (like an archmage) trying to make logic assumptions and theories.
Science doesn't apply to magic, that's what makes it makes it magic. You're not going to find answers involving probability and quantum mechanics and strong and weak forces.
I hate to break it to you, but the designers were creating a game and enough lore to support it - they're not going to put enough effort to create such a detailed theory that you tie it in to real physics, even if it were possible. Don't expect any modern physics in the game. I mean, they only just decided that they didn't want phlogiston.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Ancient Greeks had very very detailed explanations for the phenomenon natural world. From a scientific point of view they are little more than fairytales… but they were able to describe with a certain degree of accuracy different phenomenons (“retrograde” motion of planets, eclipses, mechanics…). Again, those theories were not correct and not scientific (in a modern sense) but they were able to describe the world and to forecast phenomena or they could be used to do surgery.
It was a logic construct.
I would be surprised if the Netheril didn’t have a logic, systematic and Omni comprehensive construction to explain magic phenomena and the natural laws of magic. If for no other reason for the sake of operating magic in a more efficient way, besides intellectual curiosity.
Maybe the way in which they described that is not accurate (from the omniscient point of view of Ao), but as long as is able to describe with a certain precision the magic phenomenons, is like a “scientific system”.
Then, maybe, I’m too modern thinking of magic in terms of physical laws.
But, since humans think in terms of cause-effect is probable that there is a way to describe magic in a systematic way.
Even if if something like. “The three laws of Synchrony”. Law one “Meaning drives correlation between synchronies. A major synchrony attracts a minor synchrony.” Law two : “As soon as a major synchrony is determined the minor synchrony will follow, without determination of time and space. Synchronies in the future can affect events in the past.” Law three: “Synchronies are already determined, but sentient conscience, with specific ritual actions, may determine major synchronies and affect the material world.”
Those above won’t be considered scientific laws in a modern scientific sense, but they could explain some General properties of magic and you could go ahead detailing those three General laws in the example over and over, until you are able to to describe very minute phenomenon (like how elemental energy flows when electricity is summoned using a lighting spell).
You can have another example of what I’m speaking about thinking to the very detailed systematization of traditional Chinese medicine or chakra in modern world. Or on how Taoist Chinese were conceiving the natural laws.
Science doesn't apply to magic, that's what makes it makes it magic. You're not going to find answers involving probability and quantum mechanics and strong and weak forces.
There are no such laws for magic in pretty much any D&D setting because it'd be too limiting from a game design/game experience perspective. The game is designed to be interacted with rather than observed so creating convoluted rationales behind magic would be a barrier.
I hate to break it to you, but the designers were creating a game and enough lore to support it - they're not going to put enough effort to create such a detailed theory that you tie it in to real physics, even if it were possible. Don't expect any modern physics in the game. I mean, they only just decided that they didn't want phlogiston.
No, sure. But many things in the lore have been detailed later.
Is normal that the DM is filling the necessarily existing holes.
But, of course, if you have (for example) a player that, before starting to rover the world was a very respected professor of theoretical magic, for example you can’t expect to tell him: “the best explanation that you have is that when you move your hands and shout very loud <<CALLILALEGH>> a lightning strike and you have no clue whatsoever of why is that happening. You have no theory at all and none has ever thought why is happening this way.”
Probably even a first level Wizard must have some idea and he must have had very boring hours in which his master was explaining him the theoretical 77 principles of evocation or the theories detailing the differences between how arcane magic flows from the Wave vs divine magic flows from the Celestial planes… WAAAY BEFORE the Wizard apprentice successfully performs his first prestidigitation.
Otherwise what the heck are Wizards studying all their life?
There are no such laws for magic in pretty much any D&D setting because it'd be too limiting from a game design/game experience perspective. The game is designed to be interacted with rather than observed so creating convoluted rationales behind magic would be a barrier.
Yes, it’s better to leave something to figure out to DMs and players and to interact with more flexible rules.
I was not speaking of game rules, but of lore.
There is plenty of lore, for example in novels. I was wandering if in some point of the lore some Wizard explained in a more detailed some theory for magic.
(Going also to the “how” level, besides the “what”. Going more in deep than just saying “is the Wave” or “is Lunitari’s magic”. Again, in a society where magic is very pervasive someone must had wondered about that and maybe some writer thought about explaining that.)
I think it has already been mentioned that a deep dive into fantasy magic is A) Counterproductive for game designers, B) Impossible to do practically, and C) varies by source to source.
Game design is Top-Down, so even if someone wanted to do a Bottom-Up scientific analysis, it simply wouldn't be viable because all of the "hard evidence" is prescriptive. It would be necessary to scrap the system and start over, as an author might do for their own fantasy world. Start with a system and build the spells from that. (You'd end up with obvious magic that would make a game unplayable.)
The only practical answer is that D&D magic is ultimately drawn from an intelligent source with opinions on the matter. Maybe that filters through a Weave, or something else, but there is ultimately someone(s) with their fingers in the pie that is determining what kind of magic is viable and available to mortals. Almost exactly like a game designer and DM telling an incomprehensible story.
Science doesn't apply to magic, that's what makes it makes it magic. You're not going to find answers involving probability and quantum mechanics and strong and weak forces.
*angry Ponder Stibbons noises* ;-)
Though overall, if you're looking to have a better idea of how magic works, what's the goal you're trying to achieve?
Looking for something to have serious intellectual studies on? Then building concrete laws and whatnot can make sense. Could steal ideas from other works such as suggesting magic is derived from the life force and magic-users are better at replenishing that or something. (Could offer an explanation as to the limited spell slots: it's not that the wizard can't cast another spell. It's that if they did that they'd die. And then levelling up could represent getting more magical fortitude.)
Looking for something more mystical? Then building more on a feeling of things like saying magic is a force surrounding everyone but that magic-users can tap into it might be a way to go a la The Force from Star Wars. (midichlorians notwithstanding)
Looking for whimsy? Can combine things. For example Terry Pratchett's Discworld (with its aforementioned Ponder Stibbons) both has some of the more scientific things like the wizards discover the Thaum Particle of magic with magic still behaving erratically at other times. (Gotta love the sentient computer, Hex, that refused to function if they took away its teddy bear.)
Otherwise what the heck are Wizards studying all their life?
Well depends on which way you're going.
If it's highly technical, then getting into the concrete laws and whatnot could make sense.
If it's highly mystical, then it could be training a sort of mindset or repetition of skills. (Consider martial artists. They're skilled at using their bodies for fighting, but that doesn't mean they're getting into the nitty gritty of cellular biology every day. They're putting it into practice. So perhaps a wizard is training each time on how to actually use magic, even they're not studying the nitty gritty of how it works.)
Or, for a potential quest hook, maybe the wizards all think magic is highly technical with clearly defined rules only for the party's wizard to get confronted with a new reality: it's actually mystical and they've been trying to force a pattern over magic. And then maybe that revelation is how the wizard gets some powerful artifact that represents him actually beginning to understand magic as he gets into the mindset.)
But, of course, if you have (for example) a player that, before starting to rover the world was a very respected professor of theoretical magic, for example you can’t expect to tell him: “the best explanation that you have is that when you move your hands and shout very loud <<CALLILALEGH>> a lightning strike and you have no clue whatsoever of why is that happening. You have no theory at all and none has ever thought why is happening this way.”
This sort of character is the best reason why there shouldn't be a canon explanation of how magic works. Almost anyone who makes such a character wants to be able to blather on in abstruse detail about their theories of how it all works, and if you tell them how it all works, you're spoiling the fun.
Science doesn't apply to magic, that's what makes it makes it magic. You're not going to find answers involving probability and quantum mechanics and strong and weak forces.
*angry Ponder Stibbons noises* ;-)
Though overall, if you're looking to have a better idea of how magic works, what's the goal you're trying to achieve?
Looking for something to have serious intellectual studies on? Then building concrete laws and whatnot can make sense. Could steal ideas from other works such as suggesting magic is derived from the life force and magic-users are better at replenishing that or something. (Could offer an explanation as to the limited spell slots: it's not that the wizard can't cast another spell. It's that if they did that they'd die. And then levelling up could represent getting more magical fortitude.)
Looking for something more mystical? Then building more on a feeling of things like saying magic is a force surrounding everyone but that magic-users can tap into it might be a way to go a la The Force from Star Wars. (midichlorians notwithstanding)
Looking for whimsy? Can combine things. For example Terry Pratchett's Discworld (with its aforementioned Ponder Stibbons) both has some of the more scientific things like the wizards discover the Thaum Particle of magic with magic still behaving erratically at other times. (Gotta love the sentient computer, Hex, that refused to function if they took away its teddy bear.)
Otherwise what the heck are Wizards studying all their life?
Well depends on which way you're going.
If it's highly technical, then getting into the concrete laws and whatnot could make sense.
If it's highly mystical, then it could be training a sort of mindset or repetition of skills. (Consider martial artists. They're skilled at using their bodies for fighting, but that doesn't mean they're getting into the nitty gritty of cellular biology every day. They're putting it into practice. So perhaps a wizard is training each time on how to actually use magic, even they're not studying the nitty gritty of how it works.)
Or, for a potential quest hook, maybe the wizards all think magic is highly technical with clearly defined rules only for the party's wizard to get confronted with a new reality: it's actually mystical and they've been trying to force a pattern over magic. And then maybe that revelation is how the wizard gets some powerful artifact that represents him actually beginning to understand magic as he gets into the mindset.)
But, of course, if you have (for example) a player that, before starting to rover the world was a very respected professor of theoretical magic, for example you can’t expect to tell him: “the best explanation that you have is that when you move your hands and shout very loud <<CALLILALEGH>> a lightning strike and you have no clue whatsoever of why is that happening. You have no theory at all and none has ever thought why is happening this way.”
This sort of character is the best reason why there shouldn't be a canon explanation of how magic works. Almost anyone who makes such a character wants to be able to blather on in abstruse detail about their theories of how it all works, and if you tell them how it all works, you're spoiling the fun.
Yes, sure, in fact the point is not telling them how it works, but how people *think* it works.
A bit like, if you lived in Ancient Rome, people around you thought that the Sun orbited around Earth. It was not true, of course, but it was described in a way detailed enough both to be consistent with people’s observations and to be used for practical proposes (like building meridians).
But even in Ancient Rome there was a minority natural philosophers thinking that, instead, the Sun was the centre of the universe. Which was less far from the true, but wasn’t true either (spoiler: there is no centre of the universe).
But, of course, if you have (for example) a player that, before starting to rover the world was a very respected professor of theoretical magic, for example you can’t expect to tell him: “the best explanation that you have is that when you move your hands and shout very loud <<CALLILALEGH>> a lightning strike and you have no clue whatsoever of why is that happening. You have no theory at all and none has ever thought why is happening this way.”
This sort of character is the best reason why there shouldn't be a canon explanation of how magic works. Almost anyone who makes such a character wants to be able to blather on in abstruse detail about their theories of how it all works, and if you tell them how it all works, you're spoiling the fun.
Only if you can tell him what people generally thinks (and what minorities in the academia are thinking) he can have his own theories.
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Best of your knowledge, is there any faction in some D&D worlds / planes that came out with an attempt to a systematic theory of magic?
(in the same way in which modern scientists are theorizing quantum physics or even a more primitive set of theories like Newtonian or even Aristotelian logic – for magic).
Something like if magic is a wave, a set of subatomic particles (taumions?), a field etc?
And, according to these theories…with more practical implication like… how spellcasters draw from magic while they are sleeping? Or where artifacts with permanent magic are absorbing magic from?
While I get that this is probably above knowledge of the average Wizard in Luskan, I think that more advanced magic societies, like Netheril, Thay or the Wizards of Eberron, and other Magocracies in the universe, must have worked how some theoretic explanation , given how much energy their civilizations are investing in perfecting their magic knowledge and capabilities is not possible that they are working exclusively on practical applications. (It would be like a society of engineering bros never having thought about the basic laws of thermodynamics: unlikely).
Or someone of you had that figured out homebrew?
Such a theory certainly exists in Eberron, where magic is science, though what that theory is has never been laid out (and probably differs between cultures). In my game, I describe magic as a set of fields, like the electromagnetic field, one for each school of magic. A spell is a unique combination of excitations of these fields at unique frequencies. What it means for a spell to be an evocation spell (or whatever) is that its effect primarily but not exclusively involves the “evocation field.”
In Exploring Eberron, there is a chapter dealing with the workings of magic and the difference between arcane and divine (and how does it work for warforged when worshipping the Lord of Blades) in Eberron.
I think FR uses the weave, but maybe not anymore, I don’t keep up with that continuity.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Weave
But it’s definitely table dependent. Many, many people don’t use published settings, and magic in those worlds is whatever the DM says it is.
Spellcasters in The Forgotten Realms especially have a very clear understanding of how all magic comes from manipulating the Weave. It has had very dramatic and devastating effects on the world. How much that applies to other settings fluctuates.
I know about the Wave, but does anyone managed to explain how it worked more in detail?
Because it seems me more like that the wave is described in a mystic intuitive fashion, but not like it’s properties, if it’s related to normal cause/effect or to synchronies, etc…
In retrospective (with the eyes of a person living in a scientific based society, like our) The Wave seems to be either some sort of probabilistic state-field, with the ability to alter reality (messing with quantum physics?) or a sort of energy permeating the planes (something along to dark energy or a like a radiation) or a fundamental force binding planes (a fifth one after gravity strong and weak force and electromagnetism). At least based on the description, but they seem more mystic (like a how a sorcerer would perceive it) than someone (like an archmage) trying to make logic assumptions and theories.
Science doesn't apply to magic, that's what makes it makes it magic. You're not going to find answers involving probability and quantum mechanics and strong and weak forces.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I hate to break it to you, but the designers were creating a game and enough lore to support it - they're not going to put enough effort to create such a detailed theory that you tie it in to real physics, even if it were possible. Don't expect any modern physics in the game. I mean, they only just decided that they didn't want phlogiston.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yes, mine was an analogy.
Ancient Greeks had very very detailed explanations for the phenomenon natural world. From a scientific point of view they are little more than fairytales… but they were able to describe with a certain degree of accuracy different phenomenons (“retrograde” motion of planets, eclipses, mechanics…). Again, those theories were not correct and not scientific (in a modern sense) but they were able to describe the world and to forecast phenomena or they could be used to do surgery.
It was a logic construct.
I would be surprised if the Netheril didn’t have a logic, systematic and Omni comprehensive construction to explain magic phenomena and the natural laws of magic.
If for no other reason for the sake of operating magic in a more efficient way, besides intellectual curiosity.
Maybe the way in which they described that is not accurate (from the omniscient point of view of Ao), but as long as is able to describe with a certain precision the magic phenomenons, is like a “scientific system”.
Then, maybe, I’m too modern thinking of magic in terms of physical laws.
But, since humans think in terms of cause-effect is probable that there is a way to describe magic in a systematic way.
Even if if something like. “The three laws of Synchrony”. Law one “Meaning drives correlation between synchronies. A major synchrony attracts a minor synchrony.” Law two : “As soon as a major synchrony is determined the minor synchrony will follow, without determination of time and space. Synchronies in the future can affect events in the past.” Law three: “Synchronies are already determined, but sentient conscience, with specific ritual actions, may determine major synchronies and affect the material world.”
Those above won’t be considered scientific laws in a modern scientific sense, but they could explain some General properties of magic and you could go ahead detailing those three General laws in the example over and over, until you are able to to describe very minute phenomenon (like how elemental energy flows when electricity is summoned using a lighting spell).
You can have another example of what I’m speaking about thinking to the very detailed systematization of traditional Chinese medicine or chakra in modern world. Or on how Taoist Chinese were conceiving the natural laws.
Replied above
There are no such laws for magic in pretty much any D&D setting because it'd be too limiting from a game design/game experience perspective. The game is designed to be interacted with rather than observed so creating convoluted rationales behind magic would be a barrier.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
No, sure. But many things in the lore have been detailed later.
Is normal that the DM is filling the necessarily existing holes.
But, of course, if you have (for example) a player that, before starting to rover the world was a very respected professor of theoretical magic, for example you can’t expect to tell him: “the best explanation that you have is that when you move your hands and shout very loud <<CALLILALEGH>> a lightning strike and you have no clue whatsoever of why is that happening. You have no theory at all and none has ever thought why is happening this way.”
Probably even a first level Wizard must have some idea and he must have had very boring hours in which his master was explaining him the theoretical 77 principles of evocation or the theories detailing the differences between how arcane magic flows from the Wave vs divine magic flows from the Celestial planes… WAAAY BEFORE the Wizard apprentice successfully performs his first prestidigitation.
Otherwise what the heck are Wizards studying all their life?
Thats normally just flavor for each campaing or setting.
- FR has the Weave
- Eberron has the dragon marks and other stuff.
- Dragonlance magic is tied to the Moons (gods of magic) and Chaos (later).
- MTG has the mana system where caster draw from the land around them. Strixhaven has their own magic system akin to DnD.
...but in the end is just the flavor the DM describes in his world (or the Player Character...).
Yes, it’s better to leave something to figure out to DMs and players and to interact with more flexible rules.
I was not speaking of game rules, but of lore.
There is plenty of lore, for example in novels. I was wandering if in some point of the lore some Wizard explained in a more detailed some theory for magic.
(Going also to the “how” level, besides the “what”. Going more in deep than just saying “is the Wave” or “is Lunitari’s magic”. Again, in a society where magic is very pervasive someone must had wondered about that and maybe some writer thought about explaining that.)
I think it has already been mentioned that a deep dive into fantasy magic is A) Counterproductive for game designers, B) Impossible to do practically, and C) varies by source to source.
Game design is Top-Down, so even if someone wanted to do a Bottom-Up scientific analysis, it simply wouldn't be viable because all of the "hard evidence" is prescriptive. It would be necessary to scrap the system and start over, as an author might do for their own fantasy world. Start with a system and build the spells from that. (You'd end up with obvious magic that would make a game unplayable.)
The only practical answer is that D&D magic is ultimately drawn from an intelligent source with opinions on the matter. Maybe that filters through a Weave, or something else, but there is ultimately someone(s) with their fingers in the pie that is determining what kind of magic is viable and available to mortals. Almost exactly like a game designer and DM telling an incomprehensible story.
*angry Ponder Stibbons noises*
;-)
Though overall, if you're looking to have a better idea of how magic works, what's the goal you're trying to achieve?
Looking for something to have serious intellectual studies on? Then building concrete laws and whatnot can make sense. Could steal ideas from other works such as suggesting magic is derived from the life force and magic-users are better at replenishing that or something. (Could offer an explanation as to the limited spell slots: it's not that the wizard can't cast another spell. It's that if they did that they'd die. And then levelling up could represent getting more magical fortitude.)
Looking for something more mystical? Then building more on a feeling of things like saying magic is a force surrounding everyone but that magic-users can tap into it might be a way to go a la The Force from Star Wars. (midichlorians notwithstanding)
Looking for whimsy? Can combine things. For example Terry Pratchett's Discworld (with its aforementioned Ponder Stibbons) both has some of the more scientific things like the wizards discover the Thaum Particle of magic with magic still behaving erratically at other times. (Gotta love the sentient computer, Hex, that refused to function if they took away its teddy bear.)
Well depends on which way you're going.
If it's highly technical, then getting into the concrete laws and whatnot could make sense.
If it's highly mystical, then it could be training a sort of mindset or repetition of skills. (Consider martial artists. They're skilled at using their bodies for fighting, but that doesn't mean they're getting into the nitty gritty of cellular biology every day. They're putting it into practice. So perhaps a wizard is training each time on how to actually use magic, even they're not studying the nitty gritty of how it works.)
Or, for a potential quest hook, maybe the wizards all think magic is highly technical with clearly defined rules only for the party's wizard to get confronted with a new reality: it's actually mystical and they've been trying to force a pattern over magic. And then maybe that revelation is how the wizard gets some powerful artifact that represents him actually beginning to understand magic as he gets into the mindset.)
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This sort of character is the best reason why there shouldn't be a canon explanation of how magic works. Almost anyone who makes such a character wants to be able to blather on in abstruse detail about their theories of how it all works, and if you tell them how it all works, you're spoiling the fun.
This is interesting…
Yes, sure, in fact the point is not telling them how it works, but how people *think* it works.
A bit like, if you lived in Ancient Rome, people around you thought that the Sun orbited around Earth. It was not true, of course, but it was described in a way detailed enough both to be consistent with people’s observations and to be used for practical proposes (like building meridians).
But even in Ancient Rome there was a minority natural philosophers thinking that, instead, the Sun was the centre of the universe. Which was less far from the true, but wasn’t true either (spoiler: there is no centre of the universe).
Only if you can tell him what people generally thinks (and what minorities in the academia are thinking) he can have his own theories.