A ship has the six ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) and the corresponding modifiers.
The Strength of a ship expresses its size and weight. Dexterity represents a ship’s ease of handling. A ship’s Constitution covers its durability and the quality of its construction. Ships usually have a score of 0 in Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
If a ship has a 0 in a score, it automatically fails any ability check or saving throw that uses that score.
Vulnerabilities, Resistances, and Immunities
A ship’s vulnerabilities, resistances, and immunities apply to all its components, unless otherwise noted in the stat block.
Still that does not answer the problem of what are the Strength, Constitution and Dexterity scores for spelljammer ships. Or are you saying they are all 0 so auto fail everything because some lazy person could be bothered to do what they were being paid to do? So take a ship from saltmarsh, like the galleon, and put a helm on it now all it's scores are 0... Why?
Hell the maps are 2nd edition rips as well.. .they mention jettisons on several and those weapons are not in 5th edition...
This is how they're presented in the book, so not really a matter for D&D Beyond feedback. As such, I'm going to move this thread to General Discussion
Sorry wizardoftherose I have yet to find the ability scores on Spelljammer ships. Saltmarsh listed scores. All SJ does is give crew size and then repeats the ballista and mangonel requirement. Aka padding the page count when they could had one page list ship weapons.
A small note: the rule "If a ship has a 0 in a score, it automatically fails any ability check or saving throw that uses that score." is not present in SJ either. That's a rule from Saltmarsh, referring to the ships in that book.
I guess it's worth asking... In what situations would a ship make an ability check or saving throw? Saltmarsh has Grasping Rounds, sandbars, and whirlpools, none of which you'll find in space. It has currents and a particular ship upgrade that can damage vessels on a failed save, which, once again, neither one exists in Spelljammer. And crashing involves the ship making a saving throw in Saltmarsh, but in Spelljammer it doesn't. I think maybe they didn't include this info because you won't need it!
There might be more, but it's tedious to search on mobile.
A small note: the rule "If a ship has a 0 in a score, it automatically fails any ability check or saving throw that uses that score." is not present in SJ either. That's a rule from Saltmarsh, referring to the ships in that book.
I guess it's worth asking... In what situations would a ship make an ability check or saving throw? Saltmarsh has Grasping Rounds, sandbars, and whirlpools, none of which you'll find in space. It has currents and a particular ship upgrade that can damage vessels on a failed save, which, once again, neither one exists in Spelljammer. And crashing involves the ship making a saving throw in Saltmarsh, but in Spelljammer it doesn't. I think maybe they didn't include this info because you won't need it!
There might be more, but it's tedious to search on mobile.
If someone targets the ship with a fireball, is the first thing I think of for it making a saving throw.
A small note: the rule "If a ship has a 0 in a score, it automatically fails any ability check or saving throw that uses that score." is not present in SJ either. That's a rule from Saltmarsh, referring to the ships in that book.
I guess it's worth asking... In what situations would a ship make an ability check or saving throw? Saltmarsh has Grasping Rounds, sandbars, and whirlpools, none of which you'll find in space. It has currents and a particular ship upgrade that can damage vessels on a failed save, which, once again, neither one exists in Spelljammer. And crashing involves the ship making a saving throw in Saltmarsh, but in Spelljammer it doesn't. I think maybe they didn't include this info because you won't need it!
There might be more, but it's tedious to search on mobile.
Haven't played Spelljammer, so applying my sci fi hat:
Rogue asteroid gets close and you need to make emergency manoeuvres to avoid it.
You get caught in the gravitational field of a black hole.
Someone tries ramming you and you try to avoid it.
You're navigating an asteroid field.
Some kind of anomaly that you have to dodge.
Someone casts an AoE spell.
I'm sure there are more, but you get the idea. It's not an accident that features.that present perils to naval vessels generally have equivalents in space.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I guess it's worth asking... In what situations would a ship make an ability check or saving throw?
Haven't played Spelljammer, so applying my sci fi hat:
Rogue asteroid gets close and you need to make emergency manoeuvres to avoid it.
You get caught in the gravitational field of a black hole.
Someone tries ramming you and you try to avoid it.
You're navigating an asteroid field.
Some kind of anomaly that you have to dodge.
Someone casts an AoE spell.
I'm sure there are more, but you get the idea. It's not an accident that features.that present perils to naval vessels generally have equivalents in space.
Those all* sound like challenges for the crew! Particularly for the jammer, probably. I've often felt that leaving it up to the ship (essentially an NPC) feels bad. Players have features that let them play the game when they do these things! Inspiration, Flash of Genius, Expertise and so on. If you just roll for the ship, none of those things can be used.
It is a shame there's no mechanics for making the jammer dodge stuff. But if there were, it would surely result in mandatory builds for jammers, and that's no fun. Like, you have to have proficiency in Dex saves or something, otherwise you're a liability.
(*Ramming has its own rules, and similar to how new players will often respond to "the orc hits you" with "can't I dodge?," I regret to inform you that "no." Also, most AoE spells don't matter here, they don't tend to affect vehicles.)
In the cases mentioned above, if I check is warranted than I would have the Spelljammer make a check with a bonus of spellcasting ability modifier plus proficiency bonus since the SJer controls the ship with their spellcasting ability.
A SJing ship is different than a sailing ship. It is controlled by magic. A sailing ship’s performance is more affected by the environment.
In the cases mentioned above, if I check is warranted than I would have the Spelljammer make a check with a bonus of spellcasting ability modifier plus proficiency bonus since the SJer controls the ship with their spellcasting ability.
A SJing ship is different than a sailing ship. It is controlled by magic. A sailing ship’s performance is more affected by the environment.
But you shouldn’t have to homebrew such a basic thing. There should be a rule in the book for it. Wizards should be ashamed for publishing such a shodddy piece of work, let alone the astronomical price tag they have the gumption to charge for it.
They didn't assign components like sails that could be targeted and destroyed to slow down or otherwise impact a spelljammer, they didn't provide stats...these are things every previous vehicle has. They made it that if grappled a spelljammer has no way to escape that grapple while a creature can...they turned grappling into if your hit you suck...they could have provided a mechanism other than if grappled destroy other ship before it destroys you... But no instead they pad page count by repeating weapon listings over and over... They don't even have all the tables on the DM screen within the books...you know the tables that detail random ship cargo or quirks or tasks...stuff that would be useful to have with the ships... The ships were pure laziness reprint old 2ed maps that still mention jettisons despite those no longer being in spelljammer and they assume no ship will ever have normal passengers as the crew they support with an air envelope is pretty much weapons crews plus one or two to accommodate not for spelljammer operator and caption.
Based on these rules, a smalljammer or the spelljammer itself would not have an air envelope that could not even support a normal sized adventuring party...due to no weapons. No wonder they didn't include them....
This was just sloppy and and is pathetic compared to the work done on the artwork and other areas of the books.
That's as it may be, but on the subject raised in the OP, it contributes very little.
I'm sympathetic to a lot of what you're saying, but to belabor the point is just not helpful to anyone. In terms of resolutions to your problems, you can... 1) try to get a refund for the product, 2) find free or paid resources online to fix the product, 3) fix the product yourself, or 4) write it off as a failure and move on. It's not that I don't think it's worth talking about, because it is -- but that's not what this thread is for.
I'd like to address the grappling thing, as an illustration. What happens if a ship's Spelljammer can potentially break a grapple, like you suggest they should be able to do? Well, firstly, it means that while there's a battle breaking out between the crews, one member of the party, or at least of the crew, is not fighting. I don't like that. They have magic, they should be using it, not repeatedly rolling the same ability check. Secondly, it means that the captor will probably pursue, which leads to a sort of back and forth exchange that has no way to actually end. I REALLY don't like that. Thirdly, it means that a victory against a larger vessel doesn't need to result in the takeover of said vessel. No negotiations with survivors are needed, no jettisoning of excess cargo will ever be required, and the ship you have now might very well be the only ship you ever use. That sounds boring to me. I don't like it. You might not agree with any of those preferences. But remember, it's an illustration. By leaving this rule out, they have caused a lot of other things to happen. Authorship is as much about what you put in as it is about what you leave out. Just a thought.
Your glossing over the problem with ship grappling issue by assuming only answer is to let the spelljammer make a check and everyone else twiddles their thumbs. If they gave stats to the grappling mechanism you could have the party break the grappling equipment as a team... Then they can flee without being regrappled the following round. Right now to break that equipment you have to completely destroy the ship.
They put in hp and ac for other siege weapons but put '-' for the grappling weapons.
Remember the crew of the nautilus ship won't want your cargo they want the crew as slaves if not food. And you think it is a good idea to force the crew of a grappled ship onto it when it can effectively teleport away standing that crew onboard...
It isn't just that they left out rules they did things in a way that screws over a group of adventurers as you can't negotiate with races that refuse to do so and have the means to teleport you into separate prison cells if you fail saves... This is an issue with how the rules for the spelljaming ships are incomplete and on some areas just broken due to lazy writers who couldn't even keep consistency with rules from earlier books.
Yes if a DM wants to run a social encounter with an unusual crew on a grappling ship that can be done... But that requires DM fiat that such a crew would even be open to such an option and won't reneg on a deal as soon as it suits them.
Said it before and I'll say it again: the Spelljammer set feels like an incomplete rough draft wherein a GM has to make calls for things that should be covered by the actual rules.
Because as it stands right now, a first level druid with an entangle spell can immobilize a neogi nightspider which is a probably around 300 feet long with those arms.
Said it before and I'll say it again: the Spelljammer set feels like an incomplete rough draft wherein a GM has to make calls for things that should be covered by the actual rules.
Because as it stands right now, a first level druid with an entangle spell can immobilize a neogi nightspider which is a probably around 300 feet long with those arms.
What are you talking about? The Nightspider is an object, not a creature. Entangle only restrains creatures.
Remember the crew of the nautilus ship won't want your cargo they want the crew as slaves if not food. And you think it is a good idea to force the crew of a grappled ship onto it when it can effectively teleport away standing that crew onboard...
Ships can't be grappled because they are objects and conditions are only defined for creatures. Neither Lampreys nor Nautiloids can actually grapple a ship.
In fact, absolutely anyone the DM agrees is large and strong enough can simply pick up a ship and walk off with it, the same way you might a rock.
It isn't just that they left out rules they did things in a way that screws over a group of adventurers as you can't negotiate with races that refuse to do so and have the means to teleport you into separate prison cells if you fail saves...
Welcome to Mind Flayers.
I agree that no sane DM will let non-Illithids have a Nautilus, because that Plane Shift mechanic they have is incredibly OP and worth radically more than the 50k asking price of the ship.
This is an issue with how the rules for the spelljaming ships are incomplete and on some areas just broken due to lazy writers who couldn't even keep consistency with rules from earlier books.
While you're not wrong, Ghosts of Saltmarsh is an adventure module, not a rules source, and GoS itself wildly contradicts the actual RAW in the DMG for handling objects.
Said it before and I'll say it again: the Spelljammer set feels like an incomplete rough draft wherein a GM has to make calls for things that should be covered by the actual rules.
Because as it stands right now, a first level druid with an entangle spell can immobilize a neogi nightspider which is a probably around 300 feet long with those arms.
What are you talking about? The Nightspider is an object, not a creature. Entangle only restrains creatures.
Ok, Let's change it up then: a third level druid casts heat metal and causes basically everything on board to wither and die that is in contct with it's metal super structure and it's wooden supports will likely combust (because why the hell wouldn't they?)
I'd rule that enough of even metal hulled ships are nonmetal to disallow a ship as a target. Otherwise it is a no save kill entire crew on ship and could acquire the unharmed ship easily...with no counter... Can't see how anyone would enjoy that.
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Ships do not have Stats, Saves and Immunities listed. Like with Ghosts of Saltmarsh
Ability Scores
A ship has the six ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) and the corresponding modifiers.
The Strength of a ship expresses its size and weight. Dexterity represents a ship’s ease of handling. A ship’s Constitution covers its durability and the quality of its construction. Ships usually have a score of 0 in Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
If a ship has a 0 in a score, it automatically fails any ability check or saving throw that uses that score.
Vulnerabilities, Resistances, and Immunities
A ship’s vulnerabilities, resistances, and immunities apply to all its components, unless otherwise noted in the stat block.
Ships are typically immune to poison and psychic damage. Ships are also usually immune to the following conditions: blinded, charmed, deafened, exhaustion, frightened, incapacitated, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, stunned, and unconscious.
Still that does not answer the problem of what are the Strength, Constitution and Dexterity scores for spelljammer ships. Or are you saying they are all 0 so auto fail everything because some lazy person could be bothered to do what they were being paid to do? So take a ship from saltmarsh, like the galleon, and put a helm on it now all it's scores are 0... Why?
Hell the maps are 2nd edition rips as well.. .they mention jettisons on several and those weapons are not in 5th edition...
This is how they're presented in the book, so not really a matter for D&D Beyond feedback. As such, I'm going to move this thread to General Discussion
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Sorry wizardoftherose I have yet to find the ability scores on Spelljammer ships. Saltmarsh listed scores. All SJ does is give crew size and then repeats the ballista and mangonel requirement. Aka padding the page count when they could had one page list ship weapons.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
A small note: the rule "If a ship has a 0 in a score, it automatically fails any ability check or saving throw that uses that score." is not present in SJ either. That's a rule from Saltmarsh, referring to the ships in that book.
I guess it's worth asking... In what situations would a ship make an ability check or saving throw? Saltmarsh has Grasping Rounds, sandbars, and whirlpools, none of which you'll find in space. It has currents and a particular ship upgrade that can damage vessels on a failed save, which, once again, neither one exists in Spelljammer. And crashing involves the ship making a saving throw in Saltmarsh, but in Spelljammer it doesn't. I think maybe they didn't include this info because you won't need it!
There might be more, but it's tedious to search on mobile.
If someone targets the ship with a fireball, is the first thing I think of for it making a saving throw.
Haven't played Spelljammer, so applying my sci fi hat:
I'm sure there are more, but you get the idea. It's not an accident that features.that present perils to naval vessels generally have equivalents in space.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Those all* sound like challenges for the crew! Particularly for the jammer, probably. I've often felt that leaving it up to the ship (essentially an NPC) feels bad. Players have features that let them play the game when they do these things! Inspiration, Flash of Genius, Expertise and so on. If you just roll for the ship, none of those things can be used.
It is a shame there's no mechanics for making the jammer dodge stuff. But if there were, it would surely result in mandatory builds for jammers, and that's no fun. Like, you have to have proficiency in Dex saves or something, otherwise you're a liability.
(*Ramming has its own rules, and similar to how new players will often respond to "the orc hits you" with "can't I dodge?," I regret to inform you that "no." Also, most AoE spells don't matter here, they don't tend to affect vehicles.)
In the cases mentioned above, if I check is warranted than I would have the Spelljammer make a check with a bonus of spellcasting ability modifier plus proficiency bonus since the SJer controls the ship with their spellcasting ability.
A SJing ship is different than a sailing ship. It is controlled by magic. A sailing ship’s performance is more affected by the environment.
But you shouldn’t have to homebrew such a basic thing. There should be a rule in the book for it. Wizards should be ashamed for publishing such a shodddy piece of work, let alone the astronomical price tag they have the gumption to charge for it.
I don’t disagree in principle but this is such a simple thing that it doesn’t detract from the product for me.
They didn't assign components like sails that could be targeted and destroyed to slow down or otherwise impact a spelljammer, they didn't provide stats...these are things every previous vehicle has. They made it that if grappled a spelljammer has no way to escape that grapple while a creature can...they turned grappling into if your hit you suck...they could have provided a mechanism other than if grappled destroy other ship before it destroys you... But no instead they pad page count by repeating weapon listings over and over... They don't even have all the tables on the DM screen within the books...you know the tables that detail random ship cargo or quirks or tasks...stuff that would be useful to have with the ships... The ships were pure laziness reprint old 2ed maps that still mention jettisons despite those no longer being in spelljammer and they assume no ship will ever have normal passengers as the crew they support with an air envelope is pretty much weapons crews plus one or two to accommodate not for spelljammer operator and caption.
Based on these rules, a smalljammer or the spelljammer itself would not have an air envelope that could not even support a normal sized adventuring party...due to no weapons. No wonder they didn't include them....
This was just sloppy and and is pathetic compared to the work done on the artwork and other areas of the books.
That's as it may be, but on the subject raised in the OP, it contributes very little.
I'm sympathetic to a lot of what you're saying, but to belabor the point is just not helpful to anyone. In terms of resolutions to your problems, you can... 1) try to get a refund for the product, 2) find free or paid resources online to fix the product, 3) fix the product yourself, or 4) write it off as a failure and move on. It's not that I don't think it's worth talking about, because it is -- but that's not what this thread is for.
I'd like to address the grappling thing, as an illustration. What happens if a ship's Spelljammer can potentially break a grapple, like you suggest they should be able to do? Well, firstly, it means that while there's a battle breaking out between the crews, one member of the party, or at least of the crew, is not fighting. I don't like that. They have magic, they should be using it, not repeatedly rolling the same ability check. Secondly, it means that the captor will probably pursue, which leads to a sort of back and forth exchange that has no way to actually end. I REALLY don't like that. Thirdly, it means that a victory against a larger vessel doesn't need to result in the takeover of said vessel. No negotiations with survivors are needed, no jettisoning of excess cargo will ever be required, and the ship you have now might very well be the only ship you ever use. That sounds boring to me. I don't like it. You might not agree with any of those preferences. But remember, it's an illustration. By leaving this rule out, they have caused a lot of other things to happen. Authorship is as much about what you put in as it is about what you leave out. Just a thought.
Your glossing over the problem with ship grappling issue by assuming only answer is to let the spelljammer make a check and everyone else twiddles their thumbs. If they gave stats to the grappling mechanism you could have the party break the grappling equipment as a team... Then they can flee without being regrappled the following round. Right now to break that equipment you have to completely destroy the ship.
They put in hp and ac for other siege weapons but put '-' for the grappling weapons.
Remember the crew of the nautilus ship won't want your cargo they want the crew as slaves if not food. And you think it is a good idea to force the crew of a grappled ship onto it when it can effectively teleport away standing that crew onboard...
It isn't just that they left out rules they did things in a way that screws over a group of adventurers as you can't negotiate with races that refuse to do so and have the means to teleport you into separate prison cells if you fail saves... This is an issue with how the rules for the spelljaming ships are incomplete and on some areas just broken due to lazy writers who couldn't even keep consistency with rules from earlier books.
Yes if a DM wants to run a social encounter with an unusual crew on a grappling ship that can be done... But that requires DM fiat that such a crew would even be open to such an option and won't reneg on a deal as soon as it suits them.
Said it before and I'll say it again: the Spelljammer set feels like an incomplete rough draft wherein a GM has to make calls for things that should be covered by the actual rules.
Because as it stands right now, a first level druid with an entangle spell can immobilize a neogi nightspider which is a probably around 300 feet long with those arms.
What are you talking about? The Nightspider is an object, not a creature. Entangle only restrains creatures.
Welcome to Mind Flayers.
I agree that no sane DM will let non-Illithids have a Nautilus, because that Plane Shift mechanic they have is incredibly OP and worth radically more than the 50k asking price of the ship.
While you're not wrong, Ghosts of Saltmarsh is an adventure module, not a rules source, and GoS itself wildly contradicts the actual RAW in the DMG for handling objects.
Ok, Let's change it up then: a third level druid casts heat metal and causes basically everything on board to wither and die that is in contct with it's metal super structure and it's wooden supports will likely combust (because why the hell wouldn't they?)
I'd rule that enough of even metal hulled ships are nonmetal to disallow a ship as a target. Otherwise it is a no save kill entire crew on ship and could acquire the unharmed ship easily...with no counter... Can't see how anyone would enjoy that.