Given Vecna's new 5e stat block, who do you think would win in a fight between the two? I don't mean theoretically based on lore or god-dom. I mean if one person were to pit both solely based on their stat blocks and abilities, who would come out as the winner?
Tiamat has size, flight, and a higher hit point cache, but Vecna has vile teleport and an amazing list of spells and reactions at their disposal.
Assuming you're talking about the Tiamat that was statted out in Rise of Tiamat and not the Aspect of Tiamat, Tiamat's going to win. She's got +10 to Con saves and advantage on saves vs spells and other magical effects (which is everything Vecna can throw at her) and Vecna's got no protection from fire or acid damage.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I would say based on raw stats, it'd be Tiamat no question. She has more than twice Vecna's hit points, she's flat out immune to many of his spells, and has great saves against the rest, she can fly, her red and black breath weapons and her bite can whittle down his hit points to almost nothing very quickly, and she regenerates 30 HP every round.
It's also worth noting that Vecna is particularly built to body other spellcasters, which Tiamat basically is not.
Against the Aspect of Tiamat this winds up weird because her melee attacks do not count as magical, meaning being within melee range her damage output is less than Vecna can heal with Vile Teleport, so optimal tactics are for Tiamat to just remain out of range using her breath every time it comes off of recharge. Given that Vecna has a speed of 30' (60' with fly) and no attacks beyond 120', while Tiamat has a speed of 120' and a range of 300', which becomes 60' if he casts fly (which he will lose concentration on every time Tiamat breathes, because he can't make a DC 38 concentration save) the only way he can actually engage is by casting Dimension Door, which he only has two uses per day -- cast fly one turn, cast dimension door the second to wind up next to Tiamat, make two attacks with Afterthought, use Vile Teleport to move away and heal. Expected damage from doing this is 36.1 and healing by 80. Once that's used up, Tiamat just grinds him down; it will take 6 breath weapon attacks total and an average of 16 rounds. Except Vecna will just Plane Shift away.
In an enclosed space where Tiamat can't kite him I'm not sure she can exceed his healing, at least until Chromatic Wrath triggers and she can use Chromatic Flare.
I would say based on raw stats, it'd be Tiamat no question. She has more than twice Vecna's hit points, she's flat out immune to many of his spells, and has great saves against the rest, she can fly, her red and black breath weapons and her bite can whittle down his hit points to almost nothing very quickly, and she regenerates 30 HP every round.
It's also worth noting that Vecna is particularly built to body other spellcasters, which Tiamat basically is not.
pretty much.
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She has more hp has a 10 to con saves and with just the legendary actions she can do 202 average damage to him on his turn he only has 272 hp rotten fate is not going to save him soooooo.
Tiamat wins--ps the state block in rise of Tiamat is only her avatar--
Based on BOTH Stats and Lore, it’s got to be Tiamat. She is as ancient as the gods come and was the First Lord of Avernus. Vecna is a prodigy but overwhelmed by an original Goddess. If they weren’t allies she’d devour him.
Given Vecna's new 5e stat block, who do you think would win in a fight between the two? I don't mean theoretically based on lore or god-dom. I mean if one person were to pit both solely based on their stat blocks and abilities, who would come out as the winner?
Tiamat has size, flight, and a higher hit point cache, but Vecna has vile teleport and an amazing list of spells and reactions at their disposal.
Under no situation would Vecna have a chance against Tiamat in a 1 vs 1 fight. Nor a war between the two, as Vecna doesn't have anywhere near the amount of cultist, servants, or followers that Tiamat has. Tiamat has an army in the millions strong if she wanted. Vecna has a few cults scattered across time and space.
But... and this is the big but...
If Vecna wanted to remove Tiamat from power and take her holdings in hell, he has the intelligence, and magical knowledge and the patience to change history and replace her with himself.
Given Vecna's new 5e stat block, who do you think would win in a fight between the two? I don't mean theoretically based on lore or god-dom. I mean if one person were to pit both solely based on their stat blocks and abilities, who would come out as the winner?
Tiamat has size, flight, and a higher hit point cache, but Vecna has vile teleport and an amazing list of spells and reactions at their disposal.
Under no situation would Vecna have a chance against Tiamat in a 1 vs 1 fight. Nor a war between the two, as Vecna doesn't have anywhere near the amount of cultist, servants, or followers that Tiamat has. Tiamat has an army in the millions strong if she wanted. Vecna has a few cults scattered across time and space.
But... and this is the big but...
If Vecna wanted to remove Tiamat from power and take her holdings in hell, he has the intelligence, and magical knowledge and the patience to change history and replace her with himself.
The caveat is that Tiamat is trapped in Avernus, so I don't see Vecna envying her position there.
too true, he wants the power of divinity, not the restrictions and responsibilities. The irony being his self imposed restrictions and responsivities are far heavier than Tiamat.
Honestly, considering Tiamat is sometimes implied to have played a roll in Creation with a capital "C" (such as in the lore material in Fizban's), I wouldn't be so sure that one can even get rid of her by fiddling with the timestream. I mean, your campaign, your story, your call and all that, but I feel like this is one of those cases where if you aren't already in her weight class, you're just not going to be able to beat her on that level. Kill off her avatar, call up Bahamut to oppose her, banish her back to the Hells, sure. But I don't think even a cunning lesser deity could be able to do an end run around her and supplant her, given that.
Or if they did, they might find themselves to be so overwhelmed by her primordial essence that they functionally lose themselves and become indistinguishable from her.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Given Vecna's new 5e stat block, who do you think would win in a fight between the two? I don't mean theoretically based on lore or god-dom. I mean if one person were to pit both solely based on their stat blocks and abilities, who would come out as the winner?
Tiamat has size, flight, and a higher hit point cache, but Vecna has vile teleport and an amazing list of spells and reactions at their disposal.
Under no situation would Vecna have a chance against Tiamat in a 1 vs 1 fight. Nor a war between the two, as Vecna doesn't have anywhere near the amount of cultist, servants, or followers that Tiamat has. Tiamat has an army in the millions strong if she wanted. Vecna has a few cults scattered across time and space.
But... and this is the big but...
If Vecna wanted to remove Tiamat from power and take her holdings in hell, he has the intelligence, and magical knowledge and the patience to change history and replace her with himself.
One caveat being, as statted, Tiamat has a higher INT, WIS and CHA than Vecna. I don't see her being out-gambitted all that easily.
Honestly, considering Tiamat is sometimes implied to have played a roll in Creation with a capital "C" (such as in the lore material in Fizban's), I wouldn't be so sure that one can even get rid of her by fiddling with the timestream. I mean, your campaign, your story, your call and all that, but I feel like this is one of those cases where if you aren't already in her weight class, you're just not going to be able to beat her on that level. Kill off her avatar, call up Bahamut to oppose her, banish her back to the Hells, sure. But I don't think even a cunning lesser deity could be able to do an end run around her and supplant her, given that.
Fair enough, but there’s always the ultimate end runner of lore, Raistlin. I’ve really outgrown those books obviously, but it’s still canon within the greater D&D Cosmology that a mortal took down a Prime Deity. Obviously, though, his plan relied on the other gods being so opposed to Tiamat having an Avatar (or fully herself?) in the mortal plane that they’d rather give him the DragonballZ super charge than have her in control.
I'd put that under the same general heading as "call up Bahamut to oppose her". That's beings already in her weight class weighing in to tip the scales. Plus while she was stymied, she obviously wasn't truly destroyed, so there's that too.
Yeah, it's also part of the D&D canon that the inhabitants of Krynn are especially clueless about the greater D&D cosmology and the true nature of the gods. Even Raistlin knew very little about the Outer Planes.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
LOL, totally true on Krynn(ites?) being clueless and out of the loop. I think the only character that hopped from Krynn to any other world was Lord Soth into Ravenloft. Though the book that ushered that change made him out to be a complete moronic bully that was also too powerful for the armies of Strahd to take out (I kid you not). Personally the whole world always felt so much smaller than other Settings and Games I gravitated to elsewhere, so it’s hard to say the world had much to grow on.
Given Vecna's new 5e stat block, who do you think would win in a fight between the two? I don't mean theoretically based on lore or god-dom. I mean if one person were to pit both solely based on their stat blocks and abilities, who would come out as the winner?
Tiamat has size, flight, and a higher hit point cache, but Vecna has vile teleport and an amazing list of spells and reactions at their disposal.
Full of rice, beans, and bad ideas.
Assuming you're talking about the Tiamat that was statted out in Rise of Tiamat and not the Aspect of Tiamat, Tiamat's going to win. She's got +10 to Con saves and advantage on saves vs spells and other magical effects (which is everything Vecna can throw at her) and Vecna's got no protection from fire or acid damage.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I would say based on raw stats, it'd be Tiamat no question. She has more than twice Vecna's hit points, she's flat out immune to many of his spells, and has great saves against the rest, she can fly, her red and black breath weapons and her bite can whittle down his hit points to almost nothing very quickly, and she regenerates 30 HP every round.
It's also worth noting that Vecna is particularly built to body other spellcasters, which Tiamat basically is not.
Against the Aspect of Tiamat this winds up weird because her melee attacks do not count as magical, meaning being within melee range her damage output is less than Vecna can heal with Vile Teleport, so optimal tactics are for Tiamat to just remain out of range using her breath every time it comes off of recharge. Given that Vecna has a speed of 30' (60' with fly) and no attacks beyond 120', while Tiamat has a speed of 120' and a range of 300', which becomes 60' if he casts fly (which he will lose concentration on every time Tiamat breathes, because he can't make a DC 38 concentration save) the only way he can actually engage is by casting Dimension Door, which he only has two uses per day -- cast fly one turn, cast dimension door the second to wind up next to Tiamat, make two attacks with Afterthought, use Vile Teleport to move away and heal. Expected damage from doing this is 36.1 and healing by 80. Once that's used up, Tiamat just grinds him down; it will take 6 breath weapon attacks total and an average of 16 rounds. Except Vecna will just Plane Shift away.
In an enclosed space where Tiamat can't kite him I'm not sure she can exceed his healing, at least until Chromatic Wrath triggers and she can use Chromatic Flare.
Probably Tiamet
Raw power?
Tiamat. No question.
Vecna would need a substantial power boost and / or some narrative “behind the scenes” action to go toe-to-toe with Tiamat.
Which really wouldn’t be his style anyway, I suppose.
pretty much.
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...and started me on my way into my next chapter in life...
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Tiamat no question
She has more hp has a 10 to con saves and with just the legendary actions she can do 202 average damage to him on his turn he only has 272 hp rotten fate is not going to save him soooooo.
Tiamat wins--ps the state block in rise of Tiamat is only her avatar--
Tiamat. She's CR 30, Vecna's CR 23, I think.
In addition, Tiamat's Chromatic Wrath would do Vecna in.
Based on BOTH Stats and Lore, it’s got to be Tiamat. She is as ancient as the gods come and was the First Lord of Avernus. Vecna is a prodigy but overwhelmed by an original Goddess. If they weren’t allies she’d devour him.
Under no situation would Vecna have a chance against Tiamat in a 1 vs 1 fight. Nor a war between the two, as Vecna doesn't have anywhere near the amount of cultist, servants, or followers that Tiamat has. Tiamat has an army in the millions strong if she wanted. Vecna has a few cults scattered across time and space.
But... and this is the big but...
If Vecna wanted to remove Tiamat from power and take her holdings in hell, he has the intelligence, and magical knowledge and the patience to change history and replace her with himself.
too true, he wants the power of divinity, not the restrictions and responsibilities. The irony being his self imposed restrictions and responsivities are far heavier than Tiamat.
Honestly, considering Tiamat is sometimes implied to have played a roll in Creation with a capital "C" (such as in the lore material in Fizban's), I wouldn't be so sure that one can even get rid of her by fiddling with the timestream. I mean, your campaign, your story, your call and all that, but I feel like this is one of those cases where if you aren't already in her weight class, you're just not going to be able to beat her on that level. Kill off her avatar, call up Bahamut to oppose her, banish her back to the Hells, sure. But I don't think even a cunning lesser deity could be able to do an end run around her and supplant her, given that.
Or if they did, they might find themselves to be so overwhelmed by her primordial essence that they functionally lose themselves and become indistinguishable from her.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Oh, I like that. Classic archetypal mantling stuff.
One caveat being, as statted, Tiamat has a higher INT, WIS and CHA than Vecna. I don't see her being out-gambitted all that easily.
Fair enough, but there’s always the ultimate end runner of lore, Raistlin. I’ve really outgrown those books obviously, but it’s still canon within the greater D&D Cosmology that a mortal took down a Prime Deity. Obviously, though, his plan relied on the other gods being so opposed to Tiamat having an Avatar (or fully herself?) in the mortal plane that they’d rather give him the DragonballZ super charge than have her in control.
I'd put that under the same general heading as "call up Bahamut to oppose her". That's beings already in her weight class weighing in to tip the scales. Plus while she was stymied, she obviously wasn't truly destroyed, so there's that too.
Yeah, it's also part of the D&D canon that the inhabitants of Krynn are especially clueless about the greater D&D cosmology and the true nature of the gods. Even Raistlin knew very little about the Outer Planes.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
LOL, totally true on Krynn(ites?) being clueless and out of the loop. I think the only character that hopped from Krynn to any other world was Lord Soth into Ravenloft. Though the book that ushered that change made him out to be a complete moronic bully that was also too powerful for the armies of Strahd to take out (I kid you not). Personally the whole world always felt so much smaller than other Settings and Games I gravitated to elsewhere, so it’s hard to say the world had much to grow on.