May already be a thread on this i overlooked, wild shape allows you to retain abilities from class and race as long as it is physically possible, if you are a changeling can you use that ability in wildshape? For example; wildshape into a dog then shapechange to a wolf? More interesting abuse would be wildshape into a baboon then shapechange into halfling (probably with a tail still) thus circumventing the restriction to size and shape limitations in changeling’s ability…. Brown bear into a minotaur… pegasus to a hippogryph…etc.
I would ask the DM but I am the DM and before I give the players ideas I want to know if that breaks any rules…
Edit* the fine print, RAI, shape change will not alter stats so you retain the properties as they are before you use it. Wild shape only lets you turn into a beast, shape change will not alter size from medium to small. Wild shape specifies physically able to do so but I am interpreting that as you can not pick locks without fingers. If shape change were allowed in wild shape form you would also have to allow the Dhampir bite ability (if the wild shape had teeth) the vedalken breathe underwater (if the wild shape has skin) the dwarven ability to identify stonework if the shape has eyes?
If you were allowed to use racial ability, which I am leaning toward no anyway, you could become a small monkey with wild shape then become a halfling with shape change: RAW = you would be a naked halfling, your clothes were your fur now they look like flesh, you would still have a tail, cant change number of body parts, you would still have all the stats of a monkey, most likely unable to speak but really good at climbing and all the townsfolk are trying to figure out why so many guards are chasing the naked halfling.
From the druid class page on Wild Shape: " You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense. "
I do not think dogs are physically capable of shapechanging naturally.
From the druid class page on Wild Shape: " You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense. "
I do not think dogs are physically capable of shapechanging naturally.
Interesting point, but easy to knock over. If a changeling transforms into a human, can the changeling no longer change shape, as humans cannot normally change shape?
MilestoGo_24, that limitation was on using Wild Shape. Wild Shape changes appearance and stats, Change Appearance only does what it's called so, if you look like a human your stats and abilities are still your own Changeling ones.
From the druid class page on Wild Shape: " You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense. "
I do not think dogs are physically capable of shapechanging naturally.
Interesting point, but easy to knock over. If a changeling transforms into a human, can the changeling no longer change shape, as humans cannot normally change shape?
You cannot use Wild Shape to change into a human, as humans are not beasts.
I also do not see how it is easy to knock over. If a Changeling uses Wild Shape to turn into a humanoid (assuming the GM allows it), a Changeling cannot change shape because Wild Shape prevents it from doing so while Wild Shape is active. However, a Changeling is not stuck since they can just simply get out of Wild Shape and turn back into a changeling, and use change shape to change into another humanoid.
A Changeling can use its racial ability change its appearance, not its in game stats, so you still have the change shape ability. You may look human (or whatever else you transform into), but you are still a Changeling. A Changeling that does not look like a Changeling can still use Wild Shape to turn into whatever beast creature they want.
The closest thing to an exploit i can see (assuming your dm rules that the changeling change shape is available while wildshaped) is to wildshape into a wolf and pretend to be another party members pet golden retriever by using change shape to look less threatening. But i can't think of any situation this would actually be useful unless you want to cheat at a dog show maybe?
As others have said, since the changeling ability doesn't affect stats you cant do a silly double dip to get more powerful that wildshape alone.
Longer answer: Aside from being weenie munchkin rules lawyering that should be punished by the character in question being struck by lightning out of a clear sky, even if they're underground at the time, it doesn't go with the spirit of the rules at all and via strict interpretation the argument is dubious at best. Any plan with the stated intention including the term "abuse" is grounds for immediate and unconditional DM veto. Also, as stated by others already, while wildshape changes your stats Change Appearance expressly does not. Change Appearance also can't change body type so I would argue that your monkey to halfling idea would be a no-go because of that tail, especially if it's being considered prehensile (which functionally counts as an extra limb).
On somewhat further thought, one could possibly argue (and it remains merely an argument) that a changeling druid wildshaped into a wolf could Change Appearance into, say, a sheep dog of the same size category (same body type) and retain the stats of the wolf regardless of what canine form they shifted their appearance to. Or wildshape into an eagle, then Change Appearance into a hawk, owl, or other similar sized bird. Stats and any and all functional abilities would still never change beyond the initial wildshape because Change Appearance expressly does not do that. As DM I would be ready to revoke any such abilities the very first time the player tried to get a non-cosmetic advantage out of it; abuse=veto and lightning. It could be a totally decent and creative combination of the race/class abilities, but the way you presented it reeks of munchkinism and will cause a lot of DMs to react with "No, no, and hell no" as soon as they see the crazed look in your eyes when you suggest it.
Easiest answer: there is nothing in the rules that prohibits the interaction. Wild shape into a beast, (maintaining racial abilities per wildshape rules) and then shape change into a similar sized beast with the same arrangement of limbs. No stats change (per shape change) and the only thing that differs is now your wolf shape looks like a yellow lab. It's purely a cosmetic ability in the first place so who actually cares?
Easiest answer: there is nothing in the rules that prohibits the interaction. Wild shape into a beast, (maintaining racial abilities per wildshape rules) and then shape change into a similar sized beast with the same arrangement of limbs. No stats change (per shape change) and the only thing that differs is now your wolf shape looks like a yellow lab. It's purely a cosmetic ability in the first place so who actually cares?
"We're looking for a wolf!" "Only that yellow dog down that alley, move on!"
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Completely allowed. Look at the description. You're limited to the abilities of your new form, not the original beast's.
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Wild Shape also says you can revert to your normal form. That's a class feature. Does it change your shape? Do you retain the benefit of it? If so, your new form is clearly capable of shape changing.
Druids are shape changers. Wild Shapes retain the ability to shape change. DMs who disagree, would you also rule against a druid who's already a hawk transforming directly into an owl?
Completely allowed. Look at the description. You're limited to the abilities of your new form, not the original beast's.
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Wild Shape also says you can revert to your normal form. That's a class feature. Does it change your shape? Do you retain the benefit of it? If so, your new form is clearly capable of shape changing.
Druids are shape changers. Wild Shapes retain the ability to shape change. DMs who disagree, would you also rule against a druid who's already a hawk transforming directly into an owl?
Both abilities are pretty strictly worded about what they actually allow you to do. The Changeling's Shapechanger ability is pretty blatantly worded to key off your character's default appearance, precluding the option to combine it with other shape-alteration effects for additional combinations.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Druids are shape changers. Wild Shapes retain the ability to shape change. DMs who disagree, would you also rule against a druid who's already a hawk transforming directly into an owl?
Yes. That's one of the limiting factors on Druids, and why they have Shapechange as a 9th level spell. Wild Shape changes you into a specific beast and back again. That is the beginning and end of the transformation abilities of that feature, and it does not add a shapechanging ability to the forms stat block. While in that form, you cannot do anything that form is not physically capable of, and no beast can change its shape in the way a changeling does.
no beast can change its shape in the way a changeling does.
No beast can revert to a humanoid form, either. "Your new form" doesn't refer to the original beast. It refers to your Wild Shape, a distinct form with its own mechanics. If you were limited to the physical capabilities of the original beast, you'd lose access to the "revert back to normal" class feature, because beasts can't shape change. Wild Shapes can. You are applying the limitations of a specific beast where the mechanics of Wild Shape don't refer to that beast. They refer to your Wild Shape form.
I had this come up in a one-shot where a player wanted to play a changeling druid. They asked about this very interaction and, since the stakes were pretty low being a one-shot, I came up with this: you can use your racial shapechanger ability while in wildshape, but the limitations are cosmetic and allow you look like a beast within the same related family (wildshaped into a wolf but shapechanged to look like a dog was actually the example I gave them). I also gave some general additional benefits: they could switch between Small and Medium if the creature they were wildshaped into was Small or Medium, and they could choose unnatural colorations for their wildshape's feathers, fur, and scales if they so desired. It still took them a bonus action to wildshape (moon druid, of course) and it still took them an action to use shapechanger.
One of the other characters, a divination wizard, decided they wanted to be a "blind seer" so I gave them the Grimlock's immunity to the blinded condition, Blindsight 30 feet (blind beyond this radius), Blind Senses, and Keen Hearing and Smell to simulate the "sensory exchange" they engaged in when they first became a divination wizard. I figured this was a fair trade for a one-shot and, as a fiddle fitter, wanted to see how it would play out.
The druid essentially disguised themselves as the poor blind bookbinder's faithful seeing eye dog when, in actuality, the druid was a cunning wolf guardian and the wizard was using divination spells to scout and spy. It was very encouraging to see in a one-shot. The group found the people being trafficked in the city and even used the "I'm sorry, I am blind and lost, can you help me?" ploy to distract the bandits so the rest of the party could free the defenseless people and spring a mighty ambush. All the while, the bandits are ignoring the flailing (read: casting mind spike) blind guy and his panicked (read: biting) dog.
A little interaction between mechanics that may not necessarily be "Rules as Written" made for a lot of fun times.
Halfling chaser for the win, if it is fun and does not unbalance stuff then allow it. No rules lawyers, no party poopers, just have fun. If the whole group laughs at the idea then just do it. Thanks
Super old post. Came here looking for a similar build idea. The rules are only a guideline. You can play the game however you want(as long as the DM agrees) but if they do then have fun being a cave bear that looks like an owlbear! I myself am gonna try this too. Sounds like so much fun!
just wanted to give an fyi and point out that Shapechanger lets you change your voice/vocal cords, which would let you speak while in wildshape. Felt like it was a really cool interaction
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May already be a thread on this i overlooked, wild shape allows you to retain abilities from class and race as long as it is physically possible, if you are a changeling can you use that ability in wildshape? For example; wildshape into a dog then shapechange to a wolf? More interesting abuse would be wildshape into a baboon then shapechange into halfling (probably with a tail still) thus circumventing the restriction to size and shape limitations in changeling’s ability…. Brown bear into a minotaur… pegasus to a hippogryph…etc.
I would ask the DM but I am the DM and before I give the players ideas I want to know if that breaks any rules…
Edit* the fine print, RAI, shape change will not alter stats so you retain the properties as they are before you use it. Wild shape only lets you turn into a beast, shape change will not alter size from medium to small. Wild shape specifies physically able to do so but I am interpreting that as you can not pick locks without fingers. If shape change were allowed in wild shape form you would also have to allow the Dhampir bite ability (if the wild shape had teeth) the vedalken breathe underwater (if the wild shape has skin) the dwarven ability to identify stonework if the shape has eyes?
If you were allowed to use racial ability, which I am leaning toward no anyway, you could become a small monkey with wild shape then become a halfling with shape change: RAW = you would be a naked halfling, your clothes were your fur now they look like flesh, you would still have a tail, cant change number of body parts, you would still have all the stats of a monkey, most likely unable to speak but really good at climbing and all the townsfolk are trying to figure out why so many guards are chasing the naked halfling.
I'd say that RAI is that the two abilities don't stack. I certainly wouldn't allow it in a game I was running.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
From the druid class page on Wild Shape:
"
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
"
I do not think dogs are physically capable of shapechanging naturally.
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Interesting point, but easy to knock over. If a changeling transforms into a human, can the changeling no longer change shape, as humans cannot normally change shape?
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MilestoGo_24, that limitation was on using Wild Shape. Wild Shape changes appearance and stats, Change Appearance only does what it's called so, if you look like a human your stats and abilities are still your own Changeling ones.
You cannot use Wild Shape to change into a human, as humans are not beasts.
I also do not see how it is easy to knock over. If a Changeling uses Wild Shape to turn into a humanoid (assuming the GM allows it), a Changeling cannot change shape because Wild Shape prevents it from doing so while Wild Shape is active. However, a Changeling is not stuck since they can just simply get out of Wild Shape and turn back into a changeling, and use change shape to change into another humanoid.
A Changeling can use its racial ability change its appearance, not its in game stats, so you still have the change shape ability. You may look human (or whatever else you transform into), but you are still a Changeling. A Changeling that does not look like a Changeling can still use Wild Shape to turn into whatever beast creature they want.
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So unless you wildshape into an actual chameleon….
The closest thing to an exploit i can see (assuming your dm rules that the changeling change shape is available while wildshaped) is to wildshape into a wolf and pretend to be another party members pet golden retriever by using change shape to look less threatening. But i can't think of any situation this would actually be useful unless you want to cheat at a dog show maybe?
As others have said, since the changeling ability doesn't affect stats you cant do a silly double dip to get more powerful that wildshape alone.
Short answer: No.
Longer answer: Aside from being weenie munchkin rules lawyering that should be punished by the character in question being struck by lightning out of a clear sky, even if they're underground at the time, it doesn't go with the spirit of the rules at all and via strict interpretation the argument is dubious at best. Any plan with the stated intention including the term "abuse" is grounds for immediate and unconditional DM veto. Also, as stated by others already, while wildshape changes your stats Change Appearance expressly does not. Change Appearance also can't change body type so I would argue that your monkey to halfling idea would be a no-go because of that tail, especially if it's being considered prehensile (which functionally counts as an extra limb).
On somewhat further thought, one could possibly argue (and it remains merely an argument) that a changeling druid wildshaped into a wolf could Change Appearance into, say, a sheep dog of the same size category (same body type) and retain the stats of the wolf regardless of what canine form they shifted their appearance to. Or wildshape into an eagle, then Change Appearance into a hawk, owl, or other similar sized bird. Stats and any and all functional abilities would still never change beyond the initial wildshape because Change Appearance expressly does not do that. As DM I would be ready to revoke any such abilities the very first time the player tried to get a non-cosmetic advantage out of it; abuse=veto and lightning. It could be a totally decent and creative combination of the race/class abilities, but the way you presented it reeks of munchkinism and will cause a lot of DMs to react with "No, no, and hell no" as soon as they see the crazed look in your eyes when you suggest it.
Well said
Easiest answer: there is nothing in the rules that prohibits the interaction. Wild shape into a beast, (maintaining racial abilities per wildshape rules) and then shape change into a similar sized beast with the same arrangement of limbs. No stats change (per shape change) and the only thing that differs is now your wolf shape looks like a yellow lab. It's purely a cosmetic ability in the first place so who actually cares?
"We're looking for a wolf!" "Only that yellow dog down that alley, move on!"
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Completely allowed. Look at the description. You're limited to the abilities of your new form, not the original beast's.
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
Wild Shape also says you can revert to your normal form. That's a class feature. Does it change your shape? Do you retain the benefit of it? If so, your new form is clearly capable of shape changing.
Druids are shape changers. Wild Shapes retain the ability to shape change. DMs who disagree, would you also rule against a druid who's already a hawk transforming directly into an owl?
Both abilities are pretty strictly worded about what they actually allow you to do. The Changeling's Shapechanger ability is pretty blatantly worded to key off your character's default appearance, precluding the option to combine it with other shape-alteration effects for additional combinations.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yes. That's one of the limiting factors on Druids, and why they have Shapechange as a 9th level spell. Wild Shape changes you into a specific beast and back again. That is the beginning and end of the transformation abilities of that feature, and it does not add a shapechanging ability to the forms stat block. While in that form, you cannot do anything that form is not physically capable of, and no beast can change its shape in the way a changeling does.
No beast can revert to a humanoid form, either. "Your new form" doesn't refer to the original beast. It refers to your Wild Shape, a distinct form with its own mechanics. If you were limited to the physical capabilities of the original beast, you'd lose access to the "revert back to normal" class feature, because beasts can't shape change. Wild Shapes can. You are applying the limitations of a specific beast where the mechanics of Wild Shape don't refer to that beast. They refer to your Wild Shape form.
I had this come up in a one-shot where a player wanted to play a changeling druid. They asked about this very interaction and, since the stakes were pretty low being a one-shot, I came up with this: you can use your racial shapechanger ability while in wildshape, but the limitations are cosmetic and allow you look like a beast within the same related family (wildshaped into a wolf but shapechanged to look like a dog was actually the example I gave them). I also gave some general additional benefits: they could switch between Small and Medium if the creature they were wildshaped into was Small or Medium, and they could choose unnatural colorations for their wildshape's feathers, fur, and scales if they so desired. It still took them a bonus action to wildshape (moon druid, of course) and it still took them an action to use shapechanger.
One of the other characters, a divination wizard, decided they wanted to be a "blind seer" so I gave them the Grimlock's immunity to the blinded condition, Blindsight 30 feet (blind beyond this radius), Blind Senses, and Keen Hearing and Smell to simulate the "sensory exchange" they engaged in when they first became a divination wizard. I figured this was a fair trade for a one-shot and, as a fiddle fitter, wanted to see how it would play out.
The druid essentially disguised themselves as the poor blind bookbinder's faithful seeing eye dog when, in actuality, the druid was a cunning wolf guardian and the wizard was using divination spells to scout and spy. It was very encouraging to see in a one-shot. The group found the people being trafficked in the city and even used the "I'm sorry, I am blind and lost, can you help me?" ploy to distract the bandits so the rest of the party could free the defenseless people and spring a mighty ambush. All the while, the bandits are ignoring the flailing (read: casting mind spike) blind guy and his panicked (read: biting) dog.
A little interaction between mechanics that may not necessarily be "Rules as Written" made for a lot of fun times.
Halfling chaser for the win, if it is fun and does not unbalance stuff then allow it. No rules lawyers, no party poopers, just have fun. If the whole group laughs at the idea then just do it. Thanks
Super old post. Came here looking for a similar build idea. The rules are only a guideline. You can play the game however you want(as long as the DM agrees) but if they do then have fun being a cave bear that looks like an owlbear! I myself am gonna try this too. Sounds like so much fun!
just wanted to give an fyi and point out that Shapechanger lets you change your voice/vocal cords, which would let you speak while in wildshape. Felt like it was a really cool interaction