For my settings, I decided to add a homebrew rule or new lore piece to the magic. I've decided to create Dark or Forbidden magic. Which if used, PC's will have to do a wisdom saving throw or become evil.
So far, the only spells I've put on the list are the ones that harm a person's free will or identity. Dominate Person, Feeblemind, and Geas, are all on the list because you're taking away someone's free will and/or identity. Even using these on a truly vile person or creature can risk you becoming as bad as them. Because you're taking away what truly makes people unique.
I've also put on the list, Flesh to Stone. I can't think of any punishment worse then being turned to stone. And like the last three spells, even using it on a truly vile person or creature risks you turning evil.
Are there any other spells that have similar effects as these? With so many spells it's easy to forget them. What other spells with different effects do you think would do well? I won't stop PC's from using them, but I may create in universe consequences for them. Anything else apart from tampering with freewill and identity? Or turning living things to stone? What are some particular spells or types of damage or effects that you find horrifying?
The problem with such thinking is that it escapes the real problem - evil intent. Almost every spell (and even action) in D&D is evil in that it impinges on the target's agency and free will - indeed, that's why we have dice in the game, every time.you roll, it's about whose agency wins. Is temporarily impinging on a person's agency with Dominate Person for one minute really all that worse than lobbing a Fireball and permanently robbing them and give others of their agency?
Ultimately, nearly every spell is about impinging on agency and free will, in different ways. Which one is worse depends on preference - for example, you don't like the idea of petrification, but I'd take that any day over being roasted alive. It's quite subjective. What's dark is quite...fluid, just ask JKR.
Which is all to say that it's hard to come up with an objective list, because most spells are "dark". We're not using them because there are good ones, we're using them because the alternative is even worse (if we're playing good characters, at least). It's bad to punch someone, but if the alternative is that they shoot you, then it's perfectly fine to punch them. Not because punching has suddenly become good, but because the alternative is even worse.
I don't think there is a good answer to this question for those reasons. We could answer what spells we wouldn't like to be the target of, but that's not the question. We could answer what might be considered dark by people in the game?
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I won't stop PC's from using them, but I may create in universe consequences for them.
What do you mean by "consequences"?
If you're talking about the characters' reputation suffering, and them being labeled as "magical abusers" or "purveyors of dark magicks" or something that impacts their interactions with NPCs, that's fine
If you're talking about some kind of forced alignment change, well, there's a reason 5e doesn't really do that any more. I would hope at least you would appreciate the irony of responding to PCs taking away the agency of NPCs by becoming a DM that takes away the agency of their players
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You'd have to tweak a few things to bring them inline with 5e rules but it might save you a few headaches. Clutch of Orcus is one spell I always wanted to use even if it was just so i could say "Kali Ma!!! Kali Ma!!!!" for the verbal component. And I give a cyber cookie to anyone that gets the reference.
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You'd have to tweak a few things to bring them inline with 5e rules but it might save you a few headaches. Clutch of Orcus is one spell I always wanted to use even if it was just so i could say "Kali Ma!!! Kali Ma!!!!" for the verbal component. And I give a cyber cookie to anyone that gets the reference.
I won't stop PC's from using them, but I may create in universe consequences for them.
What do you mean by "consequences"?
If you're talking about the characters' reputation suffering, and them being labeled as "magical abusers" or "purveyors of dark magicks" or something that impacts their interactions with NPCs, that's fine
If you're talking about some kind of forced alignment change, well, there's a reason 5e doesn't really do that any more. I would hope at least you would appreciate the irony of responding to PCs taking away the agency of NPCs by becoming a DM that takes away the agency of their players
Well, it does have them in Curse of Strahd and there are optional rules about that for visiting the outer planes.
For my settings, I decided to add a homebrew rule or new lore piece to the magic. I've decided to create Dark or Forbidden magic. Which if used, PC's will have to do a wisdom saving throw or become evil.
So far, the only spells I've put on the list are the ones that harm a person's free will or identity. Dominate Person, Feeblemind, and Geas, are all on the list because you're taking away someone's free will and/or identity. Even using these on a truly vile person or creature can risk you becoming as bad as them. Because you're taking away what truly makes people unique.
I've also put on the list, Flesh to Stone. I can't think of any punishment worse then being turned to stone. And like the last three spells, even using it on a truly vile person or creature risks you turning evil.
Are there any other spells that have similar effects as these? With so many spells it's easy to forget them. What other spells with different effects do you think would do well? I won't stop PC's from using them, but I may create in universe consequences for them. Anything else apart from tampering with freewill and identity? Or turning living things to stone? What are some particular spells or types of damage or effects that you find horrifying?
Overall, I think it's excessive to any of those spells qualifies as absolutely evil all the time no matter the reason for using them.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The problem with such thinking is that it escapes the real problem - evil intent. Almost every spell (and even action) in D&D is evil in that it impinges on the target's agency and free will - indeed, that's why we have dice in the game, every time.you roll, it's about whose agency wins. Is temporarily impinging on a person's agency with Dominate Person for one minute really all that worse than lobbing a Fireball and permanently robbing them and give others of their agency?
Ultimately, nearly every spell is about impinging on agency and free will, in different ways. Which one is worse depends on preference - for example, you don't like the idea of petrification, but I'd take that any day over being roasted alive. It's quite subjective. What's dark is quite...fluid, just ask JKR.
Which is all to say that it's hard to come up with an objective list, because most spells are "dark". We're not using them because there are good ones, we're using them because the alternative is even worse (if we're playing good characters, at least). It's bad to punch someone, but if the alternative is that they shoot you, then it's perfectly fine to punch them. Not because punching has suddenly become good, but because the alternative is even worse.
I don't think there is a good answer to this question for those reasons. We could answer what spells we wouldn't like to be the target of, but that's not the question. We could answer what might be considered dark by people in the game?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
What do you mean by "consequences"?
If you're talking about the characters' reputation suffering, and them being labeled as "magical abusers" or "purveyors of dark magicks" or something that impacts their interactions with NPCs, that's fine
If you're talking about some kind of forced alignment change, well, there's a reason 5e doesn't really do that any more. I would hope at least you would appreciate the irony of responding to PCs taking away the agency of NPCs by becoming a DM that takes away the agency of their players
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah, I don't see how poisoning someone or burning them alive are just and noble, but turning them to stone is just inherently evil.
You might be better off going through the spells in the 3e book of vile darkness which has a lot of spells which do some horrific things, link to wiki here: https://world-walker-chronicles.fandom.com/wiki/Book_of_Vile_Darkness_Spells
You'd have to tweak a few things to bring them inline with 5e rules but it might save you a few headaches. Clutch of Orcus is one spell I always wanted to use even if it was just so i could say "Kali Ma!!! Kali Ma!!!!" for the verbal component. And I give a cyber cookie to anyone that gets the reference.
Cookie for me! "He no nuts. He crazy!"
Well, it does have them in Curse of Strahd and there are optional rules about that for visiting the outer planes.
It's all taste. But perhaps I could put a few spells with those effects on the list.