Random thought and I'm not even sure if this is the right place for it... But being someone who remembers teh "D20 Modern" spin-off back in the days of 3e/3.5... What would your thoughts be on a 5e equivalent? I've seen some rumblings on line of this being in the cards potentially but nothing concrete.
Just something that sprang to mind given it would fit a setting I've been toying with for a while now to have some slightly more contemporary skills/backgrounds, gear balancing, and the like while still being the basic template that a lot of people have come to know.
What are some things you'd like to see/things you'd change in a "5e modern" version of the game if WotC ever decided to make one? Or should they just not at all and leave that to the realm of homebrew, and focus more on bringing us more 5e settings?
WotC did a lot of non D&D d20 stuff in house during 3/3.5, Star Wars probably being the one that got the most support. I think the studio has sorta tightened focus these days under Hasbro. Also 2024 is where we're seeing what some folks are calling 5.5e. The fact that 5e has been around this long and WotC hasn't done there on in house games beyond D&D in 5e and we're getting close to what some folks are prognosticating as 5.5 or 6e suggests to me that WotC as far as the D&D Design studio is concerned (and nothing it's the D&D Design studio, not the d20 Role Playing Games design studio) tells me they're focusing on doubling down on enriching Dungeons and Dragons, and not producing a new system.
That said, there's something in the 3rd party OGL pipeline call Everyday Heroes which has Jeff Grubb and Stan Brown, who were part of the d20 Modern team, involved and the game is being called the "spiritual successor to d20 Modern." Kickstarter launches this spring with a planned release Winter 2023. If there was any inkling of WotC doing a Modern 5e spinoff in house, I don't think we'd be seeing that. I'm sure they exist but I'm not familiar with other titles doing 5e variant games, at least offical publications. I'm familiar with Star Wars 5e which is an IP bootleg, but that's it. Not saying that there isn't though.
It sort of seems to me that Powered by the Apocalypse sort of occupies a space that 3/3.5 used to hold in the OGL game space. But that's just a conjecture from what lands in my feeds, I haven't really studied the market. I think the Savage Worlds system is another contender, in fact I know Robotech licensed two TTRPGs, one more of an independent system and the other using Savage Worlds.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I did enjoy d20 Modern. The class design achieved what a lot of modern RPGs don't do well, which is to let characters have variety of design and abilities without tying them to a fixed archetype.
The thing it didn't do so well for me was mechanical action (i.e., vehicles and mecha). I wasn't completely pleased with anything in the core book or in the expansions like d20 Future when it came to mechanical design (though I was amused to recognize concepts from the old Alternity RPG system TSR published in the 90s), nor were the 3rd party works built by DP9 or GoO completely what I was looking for. In every case, running action wasn't smooth. Rules were clunky or there were too many details for action to run smoothly.
These days, when it comes to modern gaming, I tend to look for more abstract systems like Cortex Prime, where I don't get bogged down with numbers and scaling, like rating the damage difference between a Sidewinder and a Maverick missile, or maneuver scores for an F-15 vs. a Mig-29. Basically, I want a modern/future gaming system that lets me run dogfights and giant robot action in a smooth, dynamic fashion that emphasizes story and character over numbers and details.
Long story short, I would probably pick up a 5e-adjacent version of d20 Modern, but it would need a system for mechanical action substantially different than what we've seen in 5e so far with ships for me to buy in and continue supporting it.
I did enjoy d20 Modern. The class design achieved what a lot of modern RPGs don't do well, which is to let characters have variety of design and abilities without tying them to a fixed archetype.
The thing it didn't do so well for me was mechanical action (i.e., vehicles and mecha). I wasn't completely pleased with anything in the core book or in the expansions like d20 Future when it came to mechanical design (though I was amused to recognize concepts from the old Alternity RPG system TSR published in the 90s), nor were the 3rd party works built by DP9 or GoO completely what I was looking for. In every case, running action wasn't smooth. Rules were clunky or there were too many details for action to run smoothly.
These days, when it comes to modern gaming, I tend to look for more abstract systems like Cortex Prime, where I don't get bogged down with numbers and scaling, like rating the damage difference between a Sidewinder and a Maverick missile, or maneuver scores for an F-15 vs. a Mig-29. Basically, I want a modern/future gaming system that lets me run dogfights and giant robot action in a smooth, dynamic fashion that emphasizes story and character over numbers and details.
Long story short, I would probably pick up a 5e-adjacent version of d20 Modern, but it would need a system for mechanical action substantially different than what we've seen in 5e so far with ships for me to buy in and continue supporting it.
Couldn't agree more when it comes to vehicles; I've actually been working on an overhaul for ship combat rules for my group fora while now precisely because 5e's existing rules are well... franklys sort of bizarre in addition to being clunky.
Being a child of 3.5 (my first real TTRPG) I do sort of miss the crunchy stuff; but that could easily be nostalgia goggles talking there. I've recently bought the Aliens RPG book and been reading my way through that; that system seems pretty neat as a more streamlined "story over numbers" means of handling things while still having gear tables and the like to play with.
I picked up a lot of the Alien RPG (I used to really big into Alien, basically had the Dark Horse Omnibus in single issues before the Omnibus was pubished ... so I guess I'm what Free League would call the nostalgia market). I like it enough that I'm curious how the core system is used in its other games.
It actually speaks to the sort of middle ground Dallon lays out: the weapons (both personal and vehicular) are in pretty broad categories, but with some specificicity, though the combat, particularly vehicular combat is very much into resolving the action, like if you're going to drive an APC over a fortification placed in chonky terrain, you just do it, you don't consult a horsepower table, a tire thickness table, and all wheel drive vs. independent wheel drive table. Don't get me wrong, I like me some crunchy starship combat a la Traveller, but I also like games that resolve with a bit more pulpy momentum.
If you want to see crunch, compare Alien to Leading Edge Game's Aliens Adventure Game from sometime in the 90s. We played it once, largely because first gunfight (Colonial Marines vs. Corporate Mercs with better small arms) it took us something like ten minutes to figure out the hit one character got translated into a round going through his heart and while not outright dead in that instant, the only way he'd survive into the next round would be if he had been shot in a State of the Art research hospital's cardiac surgical suite. I don't even think we ever finished that fight, the PCs weren't doing well. We switched to West End's D6 system for a while after that.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I liked D20 Modern at the time, particularly Urban Arcana, and ran a few one shots that sort of connected as an episodic mini-campaign between other games with my D&D group in college. Looking back on it, though, it was far from a perfect system, mechanically speaking. One thing that bugged me was how, despite being clearly designed with the inclusion of magic in mind (the Urban Arcana supplement was even previewed in the core book) it has no primary caster classes, only prestige classes that mean iirc at best you could be casting second level spells at sixth level as a PC and was functionally less than useless in combat compared to what any other character could be doing by that level. There were some cool utility spells for out of combat but even those were limited by the availability of slots to cast them because of the level handicap from casting being dependent on a prestige class.
IIRC there's also the massive damage threshold rule that forces a save or die situation any time you take damage equal to or greater than your Con score. Yes, guns are deadly in real life and a single shot from a high power sniper rifle can kill anybody with a semi-direct hit but that kind of instadeath built into a system that seems to encourage big action movie style combat encounters seems a bit counterintuitive. And not just guns can deal that kind of damage...again yes the big scary monster in a lot of horror flicks instakills victims but those are NPCs and the hero(es) of the movie don't get dropped by a single hit in most cases when they have a knock down drag out fight with the beasty. It also seems counterintuitive from a game balance perspective when a high level tank can have having upwards of 150 HP but still be one shot killed by 20 damage (which is something most foes at that level can easily do). Though to be fair I just said "we're going to ignore this particular rule" and my group was cool with that, so I suppose it isn't necessarily a big issue. Just bugged the hell out of me.
As much as the "just reskin the existing 5e system" seems like a lazy fallback, I honestly think it's a good approach to running modern setting games with 5e. Keep in mind that most of what made D20 Modern mechanically different from regular 3.5e was really just that it used different classes and equipment. And most of those classes were just tweaked mishmashes of mechanics from the original 3.5 classes. From what I understand, that's pretty much what Star Wars 5e is, different races/classes/equipment for a specific setting. SW5e is an open source "system" that basically originates from a self appointed council of players, but that just means it's well organized homebrew. If WotC were to make an official "5e Modern" it would probably just be a setting book with new subclasses and items. Though I honestly think that if they have any plans to do that they're going to wait until after whatever revision or "not a new system" overhaul they've already scheduled for two years from now.
I picked up a lot of the Alien RPG (I used to really big into Alien, basically had the Dark Horse Omnibus in single issues before the Omnibus was pubished ... so I guess I'm what Free League would call the nostalgia market). I like it enough that I'm curious how the core system is used in its other games.
It actually speaks to the sort of middle ground Dallon lays out: the weapons (both personal and vehicular) are in pretty broad categories, but with some specificicity, though the combat, particularly vehicular combat is very much into resolving the action, like if you're going to drive an APC over a fortification placed in chonky terrain, you just do it, you don't consult a horsepower table, a tire thickness table, and all wheel drive vs. independent wheel drive table. Don't get me wrong, I like me some crunchy starship combat a la Traveller, but I also like games that resolve with a bit more pulpy momentum.
If you want to see crunch, compare Alien to Leading Edge Game's Aliens Adventure Game from sometime in the 90s. We played it once, largely because first gunfight (Colonial Marines vs. Corporate Mercs with better small arms) it took us something like ten minutes to figure out the hit one character got translated into a round going through his heart and while not outright dead in that instant, the only way he'd survive into the next round would be if he had been shot in a State of the Art research hospital's cardiac surgical suite. I don't even think we ever finished that fight, the PCs weren't doing well. We switched to West End's D6 system for a while after that.
Sounds like you and I have had some similar gaming and interest paths. I remember the interminable wait for the 6th issue of the original Dark Horse Aliens series (the first Omnibus was too sweet to resist, though), and I too ran a short-lived campaign with the Leading Edge system. I cooked up an idea where a few marines end up saving some W-Y execs from terrorists in a "Die Hard" scenario, impressing some bigwigs and getting them tapped as USCM observers on the ship that responded to Fury 161. Alien madness would ensue. We managed to get through the first scenario with only one member incapacitated with a shattered leg. Just as you experienced, resolving combat was a ludicrously complex chore, with its multiple lookup tables. And to think that was a simplified version of their Phoenix Command system! And of course, the rules for anything other than combat were given barely any thought at all. All that being said, my friends and I love playing the Aliens board game they also made. The Free League Game is such a massive improvement. I've thought of rebuilding my original idea in their system more than once.
The 5e rules do lend to some interesting ideas for a modern RPG. I was tooling around with an adaptation myself. There were some promising ideas for mechanical action, like using attack roll vs. saving throw to model direct fire vs. guided weapons, and using Evasion to model countermeasures like chaff and flares. I had some ideas around abandoning classes in favor of a single progression and ability trees that leveraged a lot of D&D and classic d20 Modern class features, and splitting skills and proficiencies into a background + occupation design. I stalled out over the chore of modelling vehicles, though.
In case my mention of "dogfights and giant robots" wasn't a clue, I'm a fan of the Macross anime franchise, and I use the ability to present that as my benchmark to assess a modern RPG system. My friends and I encountered the Cortex rules in the short-lived Margaret Weis Marvel RPG, and we loved the open, imaginative flow of it. I've been able to build my dream RPG there in a relatively short time.
I'm interested to see what comes out of the upcoming Transformers and G.I.Joe RPGs, as they were both 5e d20 inspired. I was a huge fan of Larry Hama's G.I.Joe comic, but I hate all the nonsense that weighs down the movies. If they have a system that can present a bunch of military characters with interesting, diverse designs, and cover the cool vehicles from the JUMP and RAM to the Skystriker, they'll have a fan in me. I just hope they are less cartoon-inspired and more comic-inspired. Every time I watched an F-14 dogfight an A-10, I just rolled my eyes. Apparently that's the limit of my suspension of disbelief.
I liked d20 modern pretty well, and I’m looking forward to seeing the new version. I remember really liking the wealth system. I’m curious to see how that will work with the 5e skill system.
Personally, I'd want to play it (or something similar, at least) before judgement. It's one of those things that could go either way and I'd want to try it out first. My concern is that one of the strengths of 5e, a wide variety of attacks, may be wasted on it. Still, until I play it, I won't know.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I remember really liking the wealth system. I’m curious to see how that will work with the 5e skill system.
Actually the wealth system was another big thing that drove me nuts. It's an overly complex abstraction intended to replace just counting money. I'm pretty sure the reason for it is because pricing things for game balance is going to result in some inconsistencies with real world pricing. And it serves as a "simplification" of regular expenses like rent and food and such in modern civilization. But honestly? It's much more complex than just tracking all of those things normally, which are typically glossed over in favor of just focusing on the narrative anyways. Also, players get over a healing potion costing 50g in D&D they can deal with it being $500 in a modern setting with the explanation that magic is rare and expensive (also have you checked out how much things like guns actually cost? A quick search for a new AR-15 comes back between $500-1500). Learning how the system works took several readthroughs to wrap my brain around it and when I tried explaining it to my players most of them defaulted to "How about you just tell us if we can afford things or not?"
I picked up a lot of the Alien RPG (I used to really big into Alien, basically had the Dark Horse Omnibus in single issues before the Omnibus was pubished ... so I guess I'm what Free League would call the nostalgia market). I like it enough that I'm curious how the core system is used in its other games.
It actually speaks to the sort of middle ground Dallon lays out: the weapons (both personal and vehicular) are in pretty broad categories, but with some specificicity, though the combat, particularly vehicular combat is very much into resolving the action, like if you're going to drive an APC over a fortification placed in chonky terrain, you just do it, you don't consult a horsepower table, a tire thickness table, and all wheel drive vs. independent wheel drive table. Don't get me wrong, I like me some crunchy starship combat a la Traveller, but I also like games that resolve with a bit more pulpy momentum.
If you want to see crunch, compare Alien to Leading Edge Game's Aliens Adventure Game from sometime in the 90s. We played it once, largely because first gunfight (Colonial Marines vs. Corporate Mercs with better small arms) it took us something like ten minutes to figure out the hit one character got translated into a round going through his heart and while not outright dead in that instant, the only way he'd survive into the next round would be if he had been shot in a State of the Art research hospital's cardiac surgical suite. I don't even think we ever finished that fight, the PCs weren't doing well. We switched to West End's D6 system for a while after that.
Sounds like you and I have had some similar gaming and interest paths. I remember the interminable wait for the 6th issue of the original Dark Horse Aliens series (the first Omnibus was too sweet to resist, though), and I too ran a short-lived campaign with the Leading Edge system. I cooked up an idea where a few marines end up saving some W-Y execs from terrorists in a "Die Hard" scenario, impressing some bigwigs and getting them tapped as USCM observers on the ship that responded to Fury 161. Alien madness would ensue. We managed to get through the first scenario with only one member incapacitated with a shattered leg. Just as you experienced, resolving combat was a ludicrously complex chore, with its multiple lookup tables. And to think that was a simplified version of their Phoenix Command system! And of course, the rules for anything other than combat were given barely any thought at all. All that being said, my friends and I love playing the Aliens board game they also made. The Free League Game is such a massive improvement. I've thought of rebuilding my original idea in their system more than once.
The 5e rules do lend to some interesting ideas for a modern RPG. I was tooling around with an adaptation myself. There were some promising ideas for mechanical action, like using attack roll vs. saving throw to model direct fire vs. guided weapons, and using Evasion to model countermeasures like chaff and flares. I had some ideas around abandoning classes in favor of a single progression and ability trees that leveraged a lot of D&D and classic d20 Modern class features, and splitting skills and proficiencies into a background + occupation design. I stalled out over the chore of modelling vehicles, though.
In case my mention of "dogfights and giant robots" wasn't a clue, I'm a fan of the Macross anime franchise, and I use the ability to present that as my benchmark to assess a modern RPG system. My friends and I encountered the Cortex rules in the short-lived Margaret Weis Marvel RPG, and we loved the open, imaginative flow of it. I've been able to build my dream RPG there in a relatively short time.
I'm interested to see what comes out of the upcoming Transformers and G.I.Joe RPGs, as they were both 5e d20 inspired. I was a huge fan of Larry Hama's G.I.Joe comic, but I hate all the nonsense that weighs down the movies. If they have a system that can present a bunch of military characters with interesting, diverse designs, and cover the cool vehicles from the JUMP and RAM to the Skystriker, they'll have a fan in me. I just hope they are less cartoon-inspired and more comic-inspired. Every time I watched an F-14 dogfight an A-10, I just rolled my eyes. Apparently that's the limit of my suspension of disbelief.
Actually one of my favorite issues of the Hama Marvel run of G.I. Joe was "Shakedown", where Ace and Lady Jay in a Skystriker/F-14 (hey, Lady Jay's an RTO ... and an E-4 at time of publication?) and Wild Weasel and the Baroness in a Rattler (Cobra being the only organization outside the U.S. that's ever had access to A-10s ... I bet that was the Jugglers doing) dogfight it out over New Jersey ... but I get you. I've been tempted by the G.I. Joe RPG, but everytime I think about pre-ordering I see that cover image with RoadBlock wielding what looks like the BFG from Doom based on what I think is a plasma discharge and figure I'll wait to see if it's more 80's comic leadslinging or 80s cartoon red lasers vs. blue lasers. Also curious about the Transformers game, hoping it embraces the deep mythos Simon Furman developed in the IDW run and some of the colation of all that in the recent cartoons. The broken Quintesson in the recent Netflix cartoons who's literally of five minds is my main role play characterization influence for Tiamat in my main campaign (my Tiamat is technically of 8, but a few are literally absent at this point in the game).
Curious if you've checked out Strange Machine Game's Robotech game, and you're thoughts. I've been more on the fence with that one than G.I. Joe and that one's been out for a while that I think expansion or games covering the other two Robotech eras (Sentinels sorta straddles both latter eras) are due in short order I think. Yeah I know Macross isn't Robotech, but I think the system makes a strong effort to cover the anime action of blistering salvos of missiles, etc.
I think G.I. Joe and the 80s speaks to something else about d20 modern. Modern does not necessarily = realism, just as D&D does not represent "historical realism." I believe d20 Modern was probably decent at covering G.I. Joe or the Lethal Weapon movies, but not so much The Viet Nam portrayed in Full Metal Jacket or the more realistic violent criminal investigation in Dead Bang.
I don't _think_ current G.I. Joe is actually a d20 or 5e derivative. I might be wrong though, but the character sheets I saw when this thread inspired me to go back to the site and say "Yep, Roadblocks got a plasma blaster or something, think I'll wait it out till they let me know whether Beach Head is packing 9, .45, or 'blue laser ammo' and is stuck teaching Don Johnson Lt. Falcon how to negotiate an obstacle course with the Police Academy Platoon" didn't look so much current d20 games as something derived from other currently popular systems.
EDIT: Oh! The fact that Hasbro granted a completely different game studio the license to make Transformers, G.I. Joe, My Little Pony etc. TTRPG and CCCGs (that's what we call games like Magic right?) I think speaks volumes to WotC's continued focus on D&D and Magic under Hasbro's structure, and to the likelihood or lack thereof of WotC producing a different game from D&D with its 5e engine in house. I mean you all think Hasbro couldn't have wrestled Star Wars back to WotC from Asmodee if they wanted to go that way?
I want it, I was looking at the modern UA that WotC made a long while ago because I was thinking of maybe running something in the present or bringing in some tech/NPCs from the future and having it show it up in my games because it's funny.
Modern society being much more heavily skill based, I would rather a system better built for that. Could likely be managed with a d20 system but would be a pain to build from scratch.
And we have lousy vehicle rules for regular 5e, where even sailing vessels do not move unless an action is expended to order them to move. Even less appropriate for modern settings than for quasi-medieval/renaissance fantasy settings.
The skill issue can be adjusted by just adding a few more proficiencies to each class, or backgrounds, or something similar. If the alternative is something with dice pools you can count me out (also WotC wouldn't do something that far off it's tried and true base system). Also it doesn't really take a lot of skill to make your way through modern society so most checks would be pretty low DC; I see people I'd rate as Int 8 at best navigating social media every day. It doesn't take a hacker to make a facebook account, but if you want to be professionally good at something that's where the mechanics of skill proficiency come into play.
And a new, or at least improved, set of vehicle rules shouldn't be that difficult to work out in a way that remains simple and streamlined enough to fit with 5e's general approach while still being better than the existing ones. The existing rules for vehicles, much like mounted combat, are not only not very good but also generally more "not" than anything; I'm pretty sure that's a result of negligence and possibly just plain laziness than anything else. Actually putting a bit of thought into that would be integral to a good modern setting.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that the pervasive and effectively universal education system you're talking about makes at least many basic skill checks superfluous. If everyone has that basic level of training then you don't need to complicate things by requiring such abilities to be included in character builds. As you say, performing simple tasks isn't what adventuring is about. If you want your modern PC to be a hacker, then you should have proficiency in an IT skill to do things more complicated than what a basic user (ie everybody) can do. Such a skill is an important part of a character build so it should be gained at the expense of something that other characters can do well; all you need for this is to create an appropriate background that grants it or possibly include it as an option for a base or even sub-class.
As I was saying, all you really need to "adapt" the current system is new backgrounds and classes that are suited for the modern setting.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that the pervasive and effectively universal education system you're talking about makes at least many basic skill checks superfluous. If everyone has that basic level of training then you don't need to complicate things by requiring such abilities to be included in character builds. As you say, performing simple tasks isn't what adventuring is about. If you want your modern PC to be a hacker, then you should have proficiency in an IT skill to do things more complicated than what a basic user (ie everybody) can do. Such a skill is an important part of a character build so it should be gained at the expense of something that other characters can do well; all you need for this is to create an appropriate background that grants it or possibly include it as an option for a base or even sub-class.
As I was saying, all you really need to "adapt" the current system is new backgrounds and classes that are suited for the modern setting.
Well that is the thing, though. People have those seemingly mundane skills to different degrees, so while nigh everyone can use the basics of their phone, send messages, take pictures, etc, there will be times when image composition might actually matter beyond that which anyone could have easily taken. Similarly, there is skill to using a search engine, getting a sense of how it reacts to different search term wordings, for example.
Driving a car, vs combat driving or driving under hazardous or unfamiliar conditions. Topping up oil vs doing an oil change vs changing an oil pump vs replacing an engine...
Right, because maintaining a mount in 5e D&D doesn't require any upkeep to the mount....
I really don't know what sort of distinction you're trying to get at here. Search Engine operation sounds like an INT check that could be supplemented with particular knowledge skills that presumably have research methodologies. "Research" isn't anything new to TTRPGs, D&D doesn't have the most sophisticated investigatory system but it's not like the game is completely hamstrung for PCs researching lore in a library or Wizard's college. Driving? Going to and through a McDonalds drive-thru is a low DC, though disadvantaged if you're in certain conditions. Maintaining speed and position as part of a high speed motorcade as the advance, "limo"/protectee , follow or "muscle" vehicles through say New York when the city is largely under UN General Assemble Lock down, moderate DC. Motorcade driving through Baghdad say 2008, harder. Mechanical work outside "routine" could go to INT or WIS ... and my main game's party does this stuff in Avernus in D&D alongside a goblinoid "family" modeled after the Torreto crew.
5e Modern (as unlikely as it will be) I don't see being particularly challenged as an ability score driven skill supplemented game. Some folks who insist checks can only be done with marked down skills despite high ability checks might be frustrated because there's a lot of "general know how" that most people derive from their abilities. I did sort of smirk at "navigating social media" as a skill. Most consumer folks don't really navigate so much are navigated algorithmically to consume, though there is a minority with higher information awareness skills (could be INT or WIS ... honestly simply Insight would work well here) more adept at assigning credibility to sources. Producing social media is largely a CHA thing for 5e purposes.
I guess I just don't see how 5e modern is somehow more problematic than 3.0/3.5 Modern system. Again, d20 Modern was never intended to be The Sims, and definitely not a Simulationist game. I just don't see most games calling for a check to determine whether you can fix your laundry dryer yourself or have to call in a professional. d20 Modern I don't think ever did that, at least seriously.
And we have lousy vehicle rules for regular 5e, where even sailing vessels do not move unless an action is expended to order them to move. Even less appropriate for modern settings than for quasi-medieval/renaissance fantasy settings.
To be fair, that's tactical movement, not overland travel. The idea is if the crew doesn't guide the ship, it just flounders aimlessly. Of course, in the real world, sailing vessels will keep moving, so this is an abstraction for ease rather than trying to model the intricacies of wind and current: assume all ships drift in the same general direction if not actively guided, then the drift cancels out and all that is left are the crew's actions.
I don't _think_ current G.I. Joe is actually a d20 or 5e derivative.
EDIT: Oh! The fact that Hasbro granted a completely different game studio the license to make Transformers, G.I. Joe, My Little Pony etc. TTRPG and CCCGs (that's what we call games like Magic right?) I think speaks volumes to WotC's continued focus on D&D and Magic under Hasbro's structure, and to the likelihood or lack thereof of WotC producing a different game from D&D with its 5e engine in house. I mean you all think Hasbro couldn't have wrestled Star Wars back to WotC from Asmodee if they wanted to go that way?
Yeah, I haven't looked into what the final result is going to be for those RPGs. I remember reading somewhere that they started with something 5e inspired, but went in another direction.
I've had the same thoughts: why license flagship properties if you have an in-house RPG company unless you don't see the value or potential return on investment. Licensing lets another company take all the risk. In the unlikely and extraordinary scenario that a G.I. Joe RPG sets the tabletop world on fire, Hasbro can just make them an offer they won't refu$e. "Keep your money, I'm in it for the dice!" said no RPG creators ever.
And we have lousy vehicle rules for regular 5e, where even sailing vessels do not move unless an action is expended to order them to move. Even less appropriate for modern settings than for quasi-medieval/renaissance fantasy settings.
To be fair, that's tactical movement, not overland travel. The idea is if the crew doesn't guide the ship, it just flounders aimlessly. Of course, in the real world, sailing vessels will keep moving, so this is an abstraction for ease rather than trying to model the intricacies of wind and current: assume all ships drift in the same general direction if not actively guided, then the drift cancels out and all that is left are the crew's actions.
It was an example, with the point being that, unlike a horse, or a horse drawn wagon, which will typically continue in a straight line unless directed via feet or reins to do otherwise, or a ship, which is much more massive with even more momentum and will continue based on how the prevailing winds hit the sails, or the actions of the rowers, regardless of who is at the wheel, control of an automobile travelling at likely much higher speed is proportionately riskier to forgo, even for 6 seconds. It does not simply and safely stop if the driver does not actively command it forwards that round.
Strategic travel is covered fine in 5e.
Yeah, I'll take you word on WotC not really thinking out the nautical combat rules, but you really ought to check the Infernal War Machine rules in Descent into Avernus, here's the helm rules, you can read all of the books Appendix B to see consequences of vehicle failed dex or autofail with no driver, as well as vehicle exhaustion and mishaps.
Helm
The helm of an infernal war machine is a chair with a wheel, levers, pedals, and other controls. The helm requires a driver to operate. An infernal war machine with no driver automatically fails Dexterity saving throws.
A driver proficient with land vehicles can add its proficiency bonus to ability checks and saving throws made using the infernal war machine’s ability scores.
Drive. While the infernal war machine’s engine is on, the driver can use an action to propel the vehicle up to its speed or bring the vehicle to a dead stop. While the vehicle is moving, the driver can steer it along any course.
If the driver is incapacitated, leaves the helm, or does nothing to alter the infernal war machine’s course and speed, the vehicle moves in the same direction and at the same speed as it did during the driver’s last turn until it hits an obstacle big enough to stop it.
Bonus Actions. As a bonus action, the driver can do one of the following:
Start the infernal war machine’s engine or shut it off.
Cause the infernal war machine to take the Dash or Disengage action while the vehicle’s engine is running.
Saltmarsh is also an adventure module, so it's not like one source of authority trumps the other. I do think Descent into Avernus gives good vehicular rules and don't see anything too at odds with porting them to nautical vessels, the Infernal War Machines are considered crewed too though I imagine moving a rigged ship radically in combat would be more a group skill challenge than simple a helm check.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
i grew up with 3.5. the Oriental campaign setting and the modern D20 and Eberon was my peanut butter and JAM. i have this great freaking ich every time i look up rules and guides on the newest edition on wanting to homebrew an updated version especially for Modern D20. like i've done it for pathfinder and a slow crawling the same for 5e. its a mind boggling experience
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Random thought and I'm not even sure if this is the right place for it... But being someone who remembers teh "D20 Modern" spin-off back in the days of 3e/3.5... What would your thoughts be on a 5e equivalent? I've seen some rumblings on line of this being in the cards potentially but nothing concrete.
Just something that sprang to mind given it would fit a setting I've been toying with for a while now to have some slightly more contemporary skills/backgrounds, gear balancing, and the like while still being the basic template that a lot of people have come to know.
What are some things you'd like to see/things you'd change in a "5e modern" version of the game if WotC ever decided to make one? Or should they just not at all and leave that to the realm of homebrew, and focus more on bringing us more 5e settings?
WotC did a lot of non D&D d20 stuff in house during 3/3.5, Star Wars probably being the one that got the most support. I think the studio has sorta tightened focus these days under Hasbro. Also 2024 is where we're seeing what some folks are calling 5.5e. The fact that 5e has been around this long and WotC hasn't done there on in house games beyond D&D in 5e and we're getting close to what some folks are prognosticating as 5.5 or 6e suggests to me that WotC as far as the D&D Design studio is concerned (and nothing it's the D&D Design studio, not the d20 Role Playing Games design studio) tells me they're focusing on doubling down on enriching Dungeons and Dragons, and not producing a new system.
That said, there's something in the 3rd party OGL pipeline call Everyday Heroes which has Jeff Grubb and Stan Brown, who were part of the d20 Modern team, involved and the game is being called the "spiritual successor to d20 Modern." Kickstarter launches this spring with a planned release Winter 2023. If there was any inkling of WotC doing a Modern 5e spinoff in house, I don't think we'd be seeing that. I'm sure they exist but I'm not familiar with other titles doing 5e variant games, at least offical publications. I'm familiar with Star Wars 5e which is an IP bootleg, but that's it. Not saying that there isn't though.
It sort of seems to me that Powered by the Apocalypse sort of occupies a space that 3/3.5 used to hold in the OGL game space. But that's just a conjecture from what lands in my feeds, I haven't really studied the market. I think the Savage Worlds system is another contender, in fact I know Robotech licensed two TTRPGs, one more of an independent system and the other using Savage Worlds.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I did enjoy d20 Modern. The class design achieved what a lot of modern RPGs don't do well, which is to let characters have variety of design and abilities without tying them to a fixed archetype.
The thing it didn't do so well for me was mechanical action (i.e., vehicles and mecha). I wasn't completely pleased with anything in the core book or in the expansions like d20 Future when it came to mechanical design (though I was amused to recognize concepts from the old Alternity RPG system TSR published in the 90s), nor were the 3rd party works built by DP9 or GoO completely what I was looking for. In every case, running action wasn't smooth. Rules were clunky or there were too many details for action to run smoothly.
These days, when it comes to modern gaming, I tend to look for more abstract systems like Cortex Prime, where I don't get bogged down with numbers and scaling, like rating the damage difference between a Sidewinder and a Maverick missile, or maneuver scores for an F-15 vs. a Mig-29. Basically, I want a modern/future gaming system that lets me run dogfights and giant robot action in a smooth, dynamic fashion that emphasizes story and character over numbers and details.
Long story short, I would probably pick up a 5e-adjacent version of d20 Modern, but it would need a system for mechanical action substantially different than what we've seen in 5e so far with ships for me to buy in and continue supporting it.
Couldn't agree more when it comes to vehicles; I've actually been working on an overhaul for ship combat rules for my group fora while now precisely because 5e's existing rules are well... franklys sort of bizarre in addition to being clunky.
Being a child of 3.5 (my first real TTRPG) I do sort of miss the crunchy stuff; but that could easily be nostalgia goggles talking there. I've recently bought the Aliens RPG book and been reading my way through that; that system seems pretty neat as a more streamlined "story over numbers" means of handling things while still having gear tables and the like to play with.
I picked up a lot of the Alien RPG (I used to really big into Alien, basically had the Dark Horse Omnibus in single issues before the Omnibus was pubished ... so I guess I'm what Free League would call the nostalgia market). I like it enough that I'm curious how the core system is used in its other games.
It actually speaks to the sort of middle ground Dallon lays out: the weapons (both personal and vehicular) are in pretty broad categories, but with some specificicity, though the combat, particularly vehicular combat is very much into resolving the action, like if you're going to drive an APC over a fortification placed in chonky terrain, you just do it, you don't consult a horsepower table, a tire thickness table, and all wheel drive vs. independent wheel drive table. Don't get me wrong, I like me some crunchy starship combat a la Traveller, but I also like games that resolve with a bit more pulpy momentum.
If you want to see crunch, compare Alien to Leading Edge Game's Aliens Adventure Game from sometime in the 90s. We played it once, largely because first gunfight (Colonial Marines vs. Corporate Mercs with better small arms) it took us something like ten minutes to figure out the hit one character got translated into a round going through his heart and while not outright dead in that instant, the only way he'd survive into the next round would be if he had been shot in a State of the Art research hospital's cardiac surgical suite. I don't even think we ever finished that fight, the PCs weren't doing well. We switched to West End's D6 system for a while after that.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I liked D20 Modern at the time, particularly Urban Arcana, and ran a few one shots that sort of connected as an episodic mini-campaign between other games with my D&D group in college. Looking back on it, though, it was far from a perfect system, mechanically speaking. One thing that bugged me was how, despite being clearly designed with the inclusion of magic in mind (the Urban Arcana supplement was even previewed in the core book) it has no primary caster classes, only prestige classes that mean iirc at best you could be casting second level spells at sixth level as a PC and was functionally less than useless in combat compared to what any other character could be doing by that level. There were some cool utility spells for out of combat but even those were limited by the availability of slots to cast them because of the level handicap from casting being dependent on a prestige class.
IIRC there's also the massive damage threshold rule that forces a save or die situation any time you take damage equal to or greater than your Con score. Yes, guns are deadly in real life and a single shot from a high power sniper rifle can kill anybody with a semi-direct hit but that kind of instadeath built into a system that seems to encourage big action movie style combat encounters seems a bit counterintuitive. And not just guns can deal that kind of damage...again yes the big scary monster in a lot of horror flicks instakills victims but those are NPCs and the hero(es) of the movie don't get dropped by a single hit in most cases when they have a knock down drag out fight with the beasty. It also seems counterintuitive from a game balance perspective when a high level tank can have having upwards of 150 HP but still be one shot killed by 20 damage (which is something most foes at that level can easily do). Though to be fair I just said "we're going to ignore this particular rule" and my group was cool with that, so I suppose it isn't necessarily a big issue. Just bugged the hell out of me.
As much as the "just reskin the existing 5e system" seems like a lazy fallback, I honestly think it's a good approach to running modern setting games with 5e. Keep in mind that most of what made D20 Modern mechanically different from regular 3.5e was really just that it used different classes and equipment. And most of those classes were just tweaked mishmashes of mechanics from the original 3.5 classes. From what I understand, that's pretty much what Star Wars 5e is, different races/classes/equipment for a specific setting. SW5e is an open source "system" that basically originates from a self appointed council of players, but that just means it's well organized homebrew. If WotC were to make an official "5e Modern" it would probably just be a setting book with new subclasses and items. Though I honestly think that if they have any plans to do that they're going to wait until after whatever revision or "not a new system" overhaul they've already scheduled for two years from now.
Sounds like you and I have had some similar gaming and interest paths. I remember the interminable wait for the 6th issue of the original Dark Horse Aliens series (the first Omnibus was too sweet to resist, though), and I too ran a short-lived campaign with the Leading Edge system. I cooked up an idea where a few marines end up saving some W-Y execs from terrorists in a "Die Hard" scenario, impressing some bigwigs and getting them tapped as USCM observers on the ship that responded to Fury 161. Alien madness would ensue. We managed to get through the first scenario with only one member incapacitated with a shattered leg. Just as you experienced, resolving combat was a ludicrously complex chore, with its multiple lookup tables. And to think that was a simplified version of their Phoenix Command system! And of course, the rules for anything other than combat were given barely any thought at all. All that being said, my friends and I love playing the Aliens board game they also made. The Free League Game is such a massive improvement. I've thought of rebuilding my original idea in their system more than once.
The 5e rules do lend to some interesting ideas for a modern RPG. I was tooling around with an adaptation myself. There were some promising ideas for mechanical action, like using attack roll vs. saving throw to model direct fire vs. guided weapons, and using Evasion to model countermeasures like chaff and flares. I had some ideas around abandoning classes in favor of a single progression and ability trees that leveraged a lot of D&D and classic d20 Modern class features, and splitting skills and proficiencies into a background + occupation design. I stalled out over the chore of modelling vehicles, though.
In case my mention of "dogfights and giant robots" wasn't a clue, I'm a fan of the Macross anime franchise, and I use the ability to present that as my benchmark to assess a modern RPG system. My friends and I encountered the Cortex rules in the short-lived Margaret Weis Marvel RPG, and we loved the open, imaginative flow of it. I've been able to build my dream RPG there in a relatively short time.
I'm interested to see what comes out of the upcoming Transformers and G.I.Joe RPGs, as they were both 5e d20 inspired. I was a huge fan of Larry Hama's G.I.Joe comic, but I hate all the nonsense that weighs down the movies. If they have a system that can present a bunch of military characters with interesting, diverse designs, and cover the cool vehicles from the JUMP and RAM to the Skystriker, they'll have a fan in me. I just hope they are less cartoon-inspired and more comic-inspired. Every time I watched an F-14 dogfight an A-10, I just rolled my eyes. Apparently that's the limit of my suspension of disbelief.
I liked d20 modern pretty well, and I’m looking forward to seeing the new version.
I remember really liking the wealth system. I’m curious to see how that will work with the 5e skill system.
Personally, I'd want to play it (or something similar, at least) before judgement. It's one of those things that could go either way and I'd want to try it out first. My concern is that one of the strengths of 5e, a wide variety of attacks, may be wasted on it. Still, until I play it, I won't know.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Actually the wealth system was another big thing that drove me nuts. It's an overly complex abstraction intended to replace just counting money. I'm pretty sure the reason for it is because pricing things for game balance is going to result in some inconsistencies with real world pricing. And it serves as a "simplification" of regular expenses like rent and food and such in modern civilization. But honestly? It's much more complex than just tracking all of those things normally, which are typically glossed over in favor of just focusing on the narrative anyways. Also, players get over a healing potion costing 50g in D&D they can deal with it being $500 in a modern setting with the explanation that magic is rare and expensive (also have you checked out how much things like guns actually cost? A quick search for a new AR-15 comes back between $500-1500). Learning how the system works took several readthroughs to wrap my brain around it and when I tried explaining it to my players most of them defaulted to "How about you just tell us if we can afford things or not?"
Actually one of my favorite issues of the Hama Marvel run of G.I. Joe was "Shakedown", where Ace and Lady Jay in a Skystriker/F-14 (hey, Lady Jay's an RTO ... and an E-4 at time of publication?) and Wild Weasel and the Baroness in a Rattler (Cobra being the only organization outside the U.S. that's ever had access to A-10s ... I bet that was the Jugglers doing) dogfight it out over New Jersey ... but I get you. I've been tempted by the G.I. Joe RPG, but everytime I think about pre-ordering I see that cover image with RoadBlock wielding what looks like the BFG from Doom based on what I think is a plasma discharge and figure I'll wait to see if it's more 80's comic leadslinging or 80s cartoon red lasers vs. blue lasers. Also curious about the Transformers game, hoping it embraces the deep mythos Simon Furman developed in the IDW run and some of the colation of all that in the recent cartoons. The broken Quintesson in the recent Netflix cartoons who's literally of five minds is my main role play characterization influence for Tiamat in my main campaign (my Tiamat is technically of 8, but a few are literally absent at this point in the game).
Curious if you've checked out Strange Machine Game's Robotech game, and you're thoughts. I've been more on the fence with that one than G.I. Joe and that one's been out for a while that I think expansion or games covering the other two Robotech eras (Sentinels sorta straddles both latter eras) are due in short order I think. Yeah I know Macross isn't Robotech, but I think the system makes a strong effort to cover the anime action of blistering salvos of missiles, etc.
I think G.I. Joe and the 80s speaks to something else about d20 modern. Modern does not necessarily = realism, just as D&D does not represent "historical realism." I believe d20 Modern was probably decent at covering G.I. Joe or the Lethal Weapon movies, but not so much The Viet Nam portrayed in Full Metal Jacket or the more realistic violent criminal investigation in Dead Bang.
I don't _think_ current G.I. Joe is actually a d20 or 5e derivative. I might be wrong though, but the character sheets I saw when this thread inspired me to go back to the site and say "Yep, Roadblocks got a plasma blaster or something, think I'll wait it out till they let me know whether Beach Head is packing 9, .45, or 'blue laser ammo' and is stuck teaching Don Johnson Lt. Falcon how to negotiate an obstacle course with the Police Academy Platoon" didn't look so much current d20 games as something derived from other currently popular systems.
EDIT: Oh! The fact that Hasbro granted a completely different game studio the license to make Transformers, G.I. Joe, My Little Pony etc. TTRPG and CCCGs (that's what we call games like Magic right?) I think speaks volumes to WotC's continued focus on D&D and Magic under Hasbro's structure, and to the likelihood or lack thereof of WotC producing a different game from D&D with its 5e engine in house. I mean you all think Hasbro couldn't have wrestled Star Wars back to WotC from Asmodee if they wanted to go that way?
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I want it, I was looking at the modern UA that WotC made a long while ago because I was thinking of maybe running something in the present or bringing in some tech/NPCs from the future and having it show it up in my games because it's funny.
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
The skill issue can be adjusted by just adding a few more proficiencies to each class, or backgrounds, or something similar. If the alternative is something with dice pools you can count me out (also WotC wouldn't do something that far off it's tried and true base system). Also it doesn't really take a lot of skill to make your way through modern society so most checks would be pretty low DC; I see people I'd rate as Int 8 at best navigating social media every day. It doesn't take a hacker to make a facebook account, but if you want to be professionally good at something that's where the mechanics of skill proficiency come into play.
And a new, or at least improved, set of vehicle rules shouldn't be that difficult to work out in a way that remains simple and streamlined enough to fit with 5e's general approach while still being better than the existing ones. The existing rules for vehicles, much like mounted combat, are not only not very good but also generally more "not" than anything; I'm pretty sure that's a result of negligence and possibly just plain laziness than anything else. Actually putting a bit of thought into that would be integral to a good modern setting.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that the pervasive and effectively universal education system you're talking about makes at least many basic skill checks superfluous. If everyone has that basic level of training then you don't need to complicate things by requiring such abilities to be included in character builds. As you say, performing simple tasks isn't what adventuring is about. If you want your modern PC to be a hacker, then you should have proficiency in an IT skill to do things more complicated than what a basic user (ie everybody) can do. Such a skill is an important part of a character build so it should be gained at the expense of something that other characters can do well; all you need for this is to create an appropriate background that grants it or possibly include it as an option for a base or even sub-class.
As I was saying, all you really need to "adapt" the current system is new backgrounds and classes that are suited for the modern setting.
Right, because maintaining a mount in 5e D&D doesn't require any upkeep to the mount....
I really don't know what sort of distinction you're trying to get at here. Search Engine operation sounds like an INT check that could be supplemented with particular knowledge skills that presumably have research methodologies. "Research" isn't anything new to TTRPGs, D&D doesn't have the most sophisticated investigatory system but it's not like the game is completely hamstrung for PCs researching lore in a library or Wizard's college. Driving? Going to and through a McDonalds drive-thru is a low DC, though disadvantaged if you're in certain conditions. Maintaining speed and position as part of a high speed motorcade as the advance, "limo"/protectee , follow or "muscle" vehicles through say New York when the city is largely under UN General Assemble Lock down, moderate DC. Motorcade driving through Baghdad say 2008, harder. Mechanical work outside "routine" could go to INT or WIS ... and my main game's party does this stuff in Avernus in D&D alongside a goblinoid "family" modeled after the Torreto crew.
5e Modern (as unlikely as it will be) I don't see being particularly challenged as an ability score driven skill supplemented game. Some folks who insist checks can only be done with marked down skills despite high ability checks might be frustrated because there's a lot of "general know how" that most people derive from their abilities. I did sort of smirk at "navigating social media" as a skill. Most consumer folks don't really navigate so much are navigated algorithmically to consume, though there is a minority with higher information awareness skills (could be INT or WIS ... honestly simply Insight would work well here) more adept at assigning credibility to sources. Producing social media is largely a CHA thing for 5e purposes.
I guess I just don't see how 5e modern is somehow more problematic than 3.0/3.5 Modern system. Again, d20 Modern was never intended to be The Sims, and definitely not a Simulationist game. I just don't see most games calling for a check to determine whether you can fix your laundry dryer yourself or have to call in a professional. d20 Modern I don't think ever did that, at least seriously.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
To be fair, that's tactical movement, not overland travel. The idea is if the crew doesn't guide the ship, it just flounders aimlessly. Of course, in the real world, sailing vessels will keep moving, so this is an abstraction for ease rather than trying to model the intricacies of wind and current: assume all ships drift in the same general direction if not actively guided, then the drift cancels out and all that is left are the crew's actions.
Yeah, I haven't looked into what the final result is going to be for those RPGs. I remember reading somewhere that they started with something 5e inspired, but went in another direction.
I've had the same thoughts: why license flagship properties if you have an in-house RPG company unless you don't see the value or potential return on investment. Licensing lets another company take all the risk. In the unlikely and extraordinary scenario that a G.I. Joe RPG sets the tabletop world on fire, Hasbro can just make them an offer they won't refu$e. "Keep your money, I'm in it for the dice!" said no RPG creators ever.
Yeah, I'll take you word on WotC not really thinking out the nautical combat rules, but you really ought to check the Infernal War Machine rules in Descent into Avernus, here's the helm rules, you can read all of the books Appendix B to see consequences of vehicle failed dex or autofail with no driver, as well as vehicle exhaustion and mishaps.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Saltmarsh is also an adventure module, so it's not like one source of authority trumps the other. I do think Descent into Avernus gives good vehicular rules and don't see anything too at odds with porting them to nautical vessels, the Infernal War Machines are considered crewed too though I imagine moving a rigged ship radically in combat would be more a group skill challenge than simple a helm check.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
i grew up with 3.5. the Oriental campaign setting and the modern D20 and Eberon was my peanut butter and JAM. i have this great freaking ich every time i look up rules and guides on the newest edition on wanting to homebrew an updated version especially for Modern D20. like i've done it for pathfinder and a slow crawling the same for 5e. its a mind boggling experience