Simple question, can a Monk/Rogue make an Unarmed Strike then use Sneak attack with that strike?
I would argue that a Monk's Unarmed Strike would be considered a Finesse weapon due to the fact that a Finesse weapon can use either your STR or DEX modifier as shown in the official rules below as well as the official rule of Monk stating the exact same thing for their Unarmed Strikes:
Finesse. When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
Martial Arts
At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield:
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
And of course there's the rules on the Sneak Attack:
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
RAW, they can't, because Martial Arts allows you to use your Dex for attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes but they still don't have the Finesse property.
Personally, I think it should still be allowed, it's hardly an overpowered combination and I've felt that 5E's version of Sneak Attack is too restricted.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Having Dexterity as the governing attribute for a weapon doesn't make it Finesse. Since it doesn't specify that it's Finesse, it's neither Finesse nor Range, so it doesn't qualify for a Sneak Attack.
Of course, what the DM says goes at their table. I've not looked into the Monk and Rogue subclasses enough to offer an opinion on whether it should be allowed.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I don't think there's anything massively gamebreaking to it; a Monk can squeeze in a few more attacks than a TWF Ranger of the same level, but that's arguably getting hit with diminishing returns, and the Rogue's Steady Aim feature from Tasha's uses the Bonus Action, so they're demonstrably not doing anything a Ranger can't in that scenario. Not seeing anything else in the class that really jumps out either.
Simple question, can a Monk/Rogue make an Unarmed Strike then use Sneak attack with that strike?
The reasons Sneak Attack doesn't work on unarmed strikes is because they're not finesse or a ranged weapon. Here's an official ruling in Sage Advice Compendium explaining in more details:
Can a rogue/monk use Sneak Attack with unarmed strikes? The Sneak Attack feature works with a weapon that has the finesse or ranged property. An unarmed strike isn’t a weapon, so it doesn’t qualify. In contrast, a rogue/monk can use Sneak Attack with a monk weapon, such as a shortsword or a dagger, that has one of the required properties.
I've been against this in the past but am kind of on the fence about it. I don't like it mainly because of the dipping issue, either monk dipping rogue or rogue dipping monk. But like I've said, I'm on the fence about it and could see allowing it. Just rubs me the wrong way for some reason. Maybe because monk has always been my favorite class since AD&D.
Yeah, I get the idea that the two could stand to just stay in their lanes. Wouldn’t hold it against a DM to not make an exception, just an observation that in practice it plays about the same as a melee Ranger dip.
Even if your unarmed strikes were finesse, they still wouldn't be weapons. U can use them to make weapon attacks, but they still are not weapons. I for one would love to do an unarmed rogue build for a sort of batman vibe, but I would understand that I would need to bend the RAW. However, the main goal of DND is to have fun. The DMG even states "the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them." I know my DM would be just fine with this, but I'm not expecting to be allowed to play an unarmed rogue in a adventurers league game.
Why can’t we just have Unarmed Attacks be finesse and bludgeoning weapon types, and add different ways to allow for the different types to be exchanged?
I know the new stuff might do this, but a quick addition to Simple Melee Weapons IMHO would open things up more.
but that’s my two copper on the subject.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Place dental impression upon the metallic gluteus Maximus.
You can't combine sneak attack and unarmed strikes, but monks can still use weapons just fine, including several finesse and ranged ones. So if the ask is to combine monk and sneak attack rather than unarmed strike and sneak attack, the former is doable quite easily.
Monk is my favorite class... Monks are dramatically improved in 2024 compared to earlier editions, however when a monk uses their martial arts they through their training grant the finesse property to their special trained weapons. Therefore all monk weapons, and unarmed strikes should be compatible with the rogues sneak attack. This is so obvious that I can only think that Hasbro actually hates us.
Monk is my favorite class... Monks are dramatically improved in 2024 compared to earlier editions, however when a monk uses their martial arts they through their training grant the finesse property to their special trained weapons. Therefore all monk weapons, and unarmed strikes should be compatible with the rogues sneak attack. This is so obvious that I can only think that Hasbro actually hates us.
If that's how you want to play it at your table, sure, but just to be clear: that is not how any of that works in the actual rules.
Monk is my favorite class... Monks are dramatically improved in 2024 compared to earlier editions, however when a monk uses their martial arts they through their training grant the finesse property to their special trained weapons. Therefore all monk weapons, and unarmed strikes should be compatible with the rogues sneak attack. This is so obvious that I can only think that Hasbro actually hates us.
I get the complaint, though I think the issue is more the finesse requirement. A club can't be used as a sap as a quick example of something we kind of intuitively expect a sneak attack to be able to do. There is no blunt/sap option. it should be ranged weapons, one handed melee weapons and unarmed combat on the low end of flexibility. You can already use a rapier a d8 one handed, allowing a club or a hand axe for viking rogues would not break the game. They have this issue in multiple places where someone in the design team as a overly narrow concept of what a class, sub class, class ability is and then writes the rules to their thematic concept instead of a balanced idea with some flexibility for players to open the concept up a bit with. Pact of the blade for example their reasoning for it only summoning melee weapons was not it would be too powerful if it summoned bows as well, it was its called pact of the blade.
Monk is my favorite class... Monks are dramatically improved in 2024 compared to earlier editions, however when a monk uses their martial arts they through their training grant the finesse property to their special trained weapons. Therefore all monk weapons, and unarmed strikes should be compatible with the rogues sneak attack. This is so obvious that I can only think that Hasbro actually hates us.
I get the complaint, though I think the issue is more the finesse requirement. A club can't be used as a sap as a quick example of something we kind of intuitively expect a sneak attack to be able to do. There is no blunt/sap option. it should be ranged weapons, one handed melee weapons and unarmed combat on the low end of flexibility. You can already use a rapier a d8 one handed, allowing a club or a hand axe for viking rogues would not break the game. They have this issue in multiple places where someone in the design team as a overly narrow concept of what a class, sub class, class ability is and then writes the rules to their thematic concept instead of a balanced idea with some flexibility for players to open the concept up a bit with. Pact of the blade for example their reasoning for it only summoning melee weapons was not it would be too powerful if it summoned bows as well, it was its called pact of the blade.
Sneak Attack represents precision strikes. You don't get the level of precision needed without a level of finesse.
Monk is my favorite class... Monks are dramatically improved in 2024 compared to earlier editions, however when a monk uses their martial arts they through their training grant the finesse property to their special trained weapons. Therefore all monk weapons, and unarmed strikes should be compatible with the rogues sneak attack. This is so obvious that I can only think that Hasbro actually hates us.
I get the complaint, though I think the issue is more the finesse requirement. A club can't be used as a sap as a quick example of something we kind of intuitively expect a sneak attack to be able to do. There is no blunt/sap option. it should be ranged weapons, one handed melee weapons and unarmed combat on the low end of flexibility. You can already use a rapier a d8 one handed, allowing a club or a hand axe for viking rogues would not break the game. They have this issue in multiple places where someone in the design team as a overly narrow concept of what a class, sub class, class ability is and then writes the rules to their thematic concept instead of a balanced idea with some flexibility for players to open the concept up a bit with. Pact of the blade for example their reasoning for it only summoning melee weapons was not it would be too powerful if it summoned bows as well, it was its called pact of the blade.
Sneak Attack represents precision strikes. You don't get the level of precision needed without a level of finesse.
Sneak attack is just more damage once per turn. Yes you can overly define it down to a super narrow concept, but that makes the game worse. They successfully made the game worse by defining things in over narrow ways. And sorry its never been a nerve strike. Its hitting them while they are distracted and getting the most out of that, you don't need a finesse weapon to do that. I think you can probably hit with a long sword with more precision than you can with a long bow at 600 feet. Or with the super precision smooth bore flint lock pistol.
Monk is my favorite class... Monks are dramatically improved in 2024 compared to earlier editions, however when a monk uses their martial arts they through their training grant the finesse property to their special trained weapons. Therefore all monk weapons, and unarmed strikes should be compatible with the rogues sneak attack. This is so obvious that I can only think that Hasbro actually hates us.
I get the complaint, though I think the issue is more the finesse requirement. A club can't be used as a sap as a quick example of something we kind of intuitively expect a sneak attack to be able to do. There is no blunt/sap option. it should be ranged weapons, one handed melee weapons and unarmed combat on the low end of flexibility. You can already use a rapier a d8 one handed, allowing a club or a hand axe for viking rogues would not break the game. They have this issue in multiple places where someone in the design team as a overly narrow concept of what a class, sub class, class ability is and then writes the rules to their thematic concept instead of a balanced idea with some flexibility for players to open the concept up a bit with. Pact of the blade for example their reasoning for it only summoning melee weapons was not it would be too powerful if it summoned bows as well, it was its called pact of the blade.
Sneak Attack represents precision strikes. You don't get the level of precision needed without a level of finesse.
Sneak attack is just more damage once per turn. Yes you can overly define it down to a super narrow concept, but that makes the game worse. They successfully made the game worse by defining things in over narrow ways. And sorry its never been a nerve strike. Its hitting them while they are distracted and getting the most out of that, you don't need a finesse weapon to do that. I think you can probably hit with a long sword with more precision than you can with a long bow at 600 feet. Or with the super precision smooth bore flint lock pistol.
Look, you can complain all you want about it not being realistic, but it's built that way largely to set it up based on the fantasy trope of rogues being able to strike weak points better than anything else. Some of the game is going to be built into fantasy tropes even if it isn't optimal, and you just have to accept that it's going to happen.
But rogues bashing someone on the back of the head or hitting someone in the back with a hand axe is pretty common in fantasy. More common than using a rapier (which isn't even a Medieval weapon).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The art of Sneak Attack is to know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction with a Finesse or a Ranged weapon while you have Advantage or an ally adjacent to it.
I even have friends who still call it Backstabb 😎
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Simple question, can a Monk/Rogue make an Unarmed Strike then use Sneak attack with that strike?
I would argue that a Monk's Unarmed Strike would be considered a Finesse weapon due to the fact that a Finesse weapon can use either your STR or DEX modifier as shown in the official rules below as well as the official rule of Monk stating the exact same thing for their Unarmed Strikes:
Finesse. When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
Martial Arts
At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield:
And of course there's the rules on the Sneak Attack:
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
Let me know what you think, thanks in advance.
DruidVSAdventure
Check out my Homebrew Class The Evoker
RAW, they can't, because Martial Arts allows you to use your Dex for attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes but they still don't have the Finesse property.
Personally, I think it should still be allowed, it's hardly an overpowered combination and I've felt that 5E's version of Sneak Attack is too restricted.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Having Dexterity as the governing attribute for a weapon doesn't make it Finesse. Since it doesn't specify that it's Finesse, it's neither Finesse nor Range, so it doesn't qualify for a Sneak Attack.
Of course, what the DM says goes at their table. I've not looked into the Monk and Rogue subclasses enough to offer an opinion on whether it should be allowed.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I don't think there's anything massively gamebreaking to it; a Monk can squeeze in a few more attacks than a TWF Ranger of the same level, but that's arguably getting hit with diminishing returns, and the Rogue's Steady Aim feature from Tasha's uses the Bonus Action, so they're demonstrably not doing anything a Ranger can't in that scenario. Not seeing anything else in the class that really jumps out either.
The reasons Sneak Attack doesn't work on unarmed strikes is because they're not finesse or a ranged weapon. Here's an official ruling in Sage Advice Compendium explaining in more details:
I've been against this in the past but am kind of on the fence about it. I don't like it mainly because of the dipping issue, either monk dipping rogue or rogue dipping monk. But like I've said, I'm on the fence about it and could see allowing it. Just rubs me the wrong way for some reason. Maybe because monk has always been my favorite class since AD&D.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yeah, I get the idea that the two could stand to just stay in their lanes. Wouldn’t hold it against a DM to not make an exception, just an observation that in practice it plays about the same as a melee Ranger dip.
Even if your unarmed strikes were finesse, they still wouldn't be weapons. U can use them to make weapon attacks, but they still are not weapons. I for one would love to do an unarmed rogue build for a sort of batman vibe, but I would understand that I would need to bend the RAW. However, the main goal of DND is to have fun. The DMG even states "the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them." I know my DM would be just fine with this, but I'm not expecting to be allowed to play an unarmed rogue in a adventurers league game.
Why can’t we just have Unarmed Attacks be finesse and bludgeoning weapon types, and add different ways to allow for the different types to be exchanged?
I know the new stuff might do this, but a quick addition to Simple Melee Weapons IMHO would open things up more.
but that’s my two copper on the subject.
Place dental impression upon the metallic gluteus Maximus.
You can't combine sneak attack and unarmed strikes, but monks can still use weapons just fine, including several finesse and ranged ones. So if the ask is to combine monk and sneak attack rather than unarmed strike and sneak attack, the former is doable quite easily.
Let’s say, for example, we make an Unarmed Stike a Simple Melee Weapon; Deals 1d4 + Strength Mod Bludgeoning Damage.
Given that, Classes, Subclasses, and other possibilities could be tailored to suit the weapon’s capabilities.
But am I overthinking this?
Place dental impression upon the metallic gluteus Maximus.
Purely RAW, it isn’t Finesse, and therefore cannot. But as a DM I wouldn’t have a problem with it!
Monk is my favorite class... Monks are dramatically improved in 2024 compared to earlier editions, however when a monk uses their martial arts they through their training grant the finesse property to their special trained weapons. Therefore all monk weapons, and unarmed strikes should be compatible with the rogues sneak attack. This is so obvious that I can only think that Hasbro actually hates us.
If that's how you want to play it at your table, sure, but just to be clear: that is not how any of that works in the actual rules.
pronouns: he/she/they
I get the complaint, though I think the issue is more the finesse requirement. A club can't be used as a sap as a quick example of something we kind of intuitively expect a sneak attack to be able to do. There is no blunt/sap option. it should be ranged weapons, one handed melee weapons and unarmed combat on the low end of flexibility. You can already use a rapier a d8 one handed, allowing a club or a hand axe for viking rogues would not break the game. They have this issue in multiple places where someone in the design team as a overly narrow concept of what a class, sub class, class ability is and then writes the rules to their thematic concept instead of a balanced idea with some flexibility for players to open the concept up a bit with. Pact of the blade for example their reasoning for it only summoning melee weapons was not it would be too powerful if it summoned bows as well, it was its called pact of the blade.
Sneak Attack represents precision strikes. You don't get the level of precision needed without a level of finesse.
Sneak attack is just more damage once per turn. Yes you can overly define it down to a super narrow concept, but that makes the game worse. They successfully made the game worse by defining things in over narrow ways. And sorry its never been a nerve strike. Its hitting them while they are distracted and getting the most out of that, you don't need a finesse weapon to do that. I think you can probably hit with a long sword with more precision than you can with a long bow at 600 feet. Or with the super precision smooth bore flint lock pistol.
Look, you can complain all you want about it not being realistic, but it's built that way largely to set it up based on the fantasy trope of rogues being able to strike weak points better than anything else. Some of the game is going to be built into fantasy tropes even if it isn't optimal, and you just have to accept that it's going to happen.
But rogues bashing someone on the back of the head or hitting someone in the back with a hand axe is pretty common in fantasy. More common than using a rapier (which isn't even a Medieval weapon).
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The art of Sneak Attack is to know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction with a Finesse or a Ranged weapon while you have Advantage or an ally adjacent to it.
I even have friends who still call it Backstabb 😎