I received my new 2024 PHB today and was going through it, one thing that I found super disappointing is that they seem to have removed all the deity and pantheon descriptions and tables and boiled down the descriptions of the other Planes to just a sentence a piece.
Why take out all the deities?
Why remove all the lore about the Planes?
Will the new DMG have more information on the other Planes?
I received my new 2024 PHB today and was going through it, one thing that I found super disappointing is that they seem to have removed all the deity and pantheon descriptions and tables and boiled down the descriptions of the other Planes to just a sentence a piece.
Why take out all the deities?
Why remove all the lore about the Planes?
Will the new DMG have more information on the other Planes?
while they have a short and simple section on the planes, it's good enough for now. What bothers me is the lack of any deities, not even in the cleric section when it says you are empowered by your deity, yet it fails to even name one.
Plane descriptions were condensed from a paragraph each to just a sentence. To me, that kinda makes sense as a player doesn't need to know as much about other planes as a DM should, but I hope more info on the Planes will be in the DMG for that reason.
The complete removal of deities from the PHB is absurd for the reason you mentioned. Deities are an integral part of multiple classes and can also just play a big part in a character's background if the player chooses to do so.
Seeing as the old DMG had large sections devoted to these systems, I'd bet that's where they decided to spend the ink in this revision. In a way, it even (almost) makes sense to not have deity's names in the PHB since it's the DM that makes (or decides on, at least) the world and systems of gods and other beings out of the players' control.
Seeing as the old DMG had large sections devoted to these systems, I'd bet that's where they decided to spend the ink in this revision. In a way, it even (almost) makes sense to not have deity's names in the PHB since it's the DM that makes (or decides on, at least) the world and systems of gods and other beings out of the players' control.
While true, It does create the need to give the player all that information instead of just telling them to turn to page 435 or whatever. For example, if we were going to run a game in the forgotten realms, you would have to tell me who the gods are and something about them and you will probably have to remind me a couple of times.
Granted I assume this information is going to be in the Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms and maybe the DMG when it comes to Greyhawk.
They removed everything that was setting specific from the PHB. Forgotten Realms has different deities from Eberron or Dragonlance, for example. The PHB is probably meant to be the rules that apply to every setting, and setting specific content can be found in setting specific (both old and probably in the future new) books.
The difference between the 2014 and 2024 PHBs is that we now have 5th edition sourcebooks for some of these settings which give more detail on the setting-specific deities, such as the Dragonlance and Eberron pantheons. They’ve announced that they’re doing a Forgotten Realms sourcebook (two in fact) which may provide the FR pantheon.
They’ve said also that the new DMG will present Greyhawk as an exemplar campaign setting, so they might include an overview of the Greyhawk pantheon in that.
I prefer the core books to be setting agnostic, including the DMG. Information about deities and planes should be found in their respective settings books. I am not a fan of the organizational mess found in the old PHB and DMG. And for the 2024 PHB, I am still not a fan that they are still wasting ink and pages on Appendix A about the multiverse. If I have to carry around the physical books, I do not want to carry around irrelevant or duplicate lore to the adventure I am running.
Additionally, while I allow any and all options made by Wizards, not every GM is as permissive as I am, and some GMs prefer a tighter grip on world building information, especially if they run a homebrew campaign where the official information on deities and planes are irrelevant.
I prefer the core books to be setting agnostic, including the DMG. Information about deities and planes should be found in their respective settings books. I am not a fan of the organizational mess found in the old PHB and DMG. And for the 2024 PHB, I am still not a fan that they are still wasting ink and pages on Appendix A about the multiverse. If I have to carry around the physical books, I do not want to carry around irrelevant or duplicate lore to the adventure I am running.
Additionally, while I allow any and all options made by Wizards, not every GM is as permissive as I am, and some GMs prefer a tighter grip on world building information, especially if they run a homebrew campaign where the official information on deities and planes are irrelevant.
“Setting agnostic” is a nice set of buzzwords, but at the end of the day if you’re trying to write an actual roleplaying game rather than just a set of rules and mechanics, you need to actually spend some time designing a setting that informs the roles available for play. That is not to say the latter is not a legitimate game design option, but it has never been D&D’s choice and they don’t look to be changing models here. Plus, putting all setting and worldbuilding material in other books is also effectively saying people need to go out and buy more than the core 3 if they want to pick up the game unless they’re ready to build an entire setting from scratch, which would probably be rather daunting to a first-time DM. Having one generic high fantasy setting that fills in some of the basic boxes like “here are the good gods of x, y, and z, here are the evil gods of a, b, and c, and here’s where stuff like angels and demons come from” just provides a loose framework newbie DMs can build on and tweak rather than just telling them to figure it out on their own.
I prefer the core books to be setting agnostic, including the DMG. Information about deities and planes should be found in their respective settings books. I am not a fan of the organizational mess found in the old PHB and DMG. And for the 2024 PHB, I am still not a fan that they are still wasting ink and pages on Appendix A about the multiverse. If I have to carry around the physical books, I do not want to carry around irrelevant or duplicate lore to the adventure I am running.
Additionally, while I allow any and all options made by Wizards, not every GM is as permissive as I am, and some GMs prefer a tighter grip on world building information, especially if they run a homebrew campaign where the official information on deities and planes are irrelevant.
“Setting agnostic” is a nice set of buzzwords, but at the end of the day if you’re trying to write an actual roleplaying game rather than just a set of rules and mechanics, you need to actually spend some time designing a setting that informs the roles available for play. That is not to say the latter is not a legitimate game design option, but it has never been D&D’s choice and they don’t look to be changing models here. Plus, putting all setting and worldbuilding material in other books is also effectively saying people need to go out and buy more than the core 3 if they want to pick up the game unless they’re ready to build an entire setting from scratch, which would probably be rather daunting to a first-time DM. Having one generic high fantasy setting that fills in some of the basic boxes like “here are the good gods of x, y, and z, here are the evil gods of a, b, and c, and here’s where stuff like angels and demons come from” just provides a loose framework newbie DMs can build on and tweak rather than just telling them to figure it out on their own.
The core books should be just the about the core rules and mechanics. The place for lore is in setting and adventure books. The core books should contain stuff that is universal, and lore is not universal. If I am lugging around physical books, I prefer to lug around information that I will be actually be using.
People already need to go out to buy the core three anyways if they want detailed lore.
For first time GMs who want world building guidance, an example framework should be in the DMG, not PHB. There is absolutely no reason for the PHB to contain Appendix A, as not every GM will utilize D&D's official multiverse framework.
I received my new 2024 PHB today and was going through it, one thing that I found super disappointing is that they seem to have removed all the deity and pantheon descriptions and tables and boiled down the descriptions of the other Planes to just a sentence a piece.
Why take out all the deities?
Why remove all the lore about the Planes?
Will the new DMG have more information on the other Planes?
while they have a short and simple section on the planes, it's good enough for now. What bothers me is the lack of any deities, not even in the cleric section when it says you are empowered by your deity, yet it fails to even name one.
Because people will spend more money on new books that focus on the planes and deities. Of course people can rely on the old books...if they have hard copies.
I received my new 2024 PHB today and was going through it, one thing that I found super disappointing is that they seem to have removed all the deity and pantheon descriptions and tables and boiled down the descriptions of the other Planes to just a sentence a piece.
Why take out all the deities?
Why remove all the lore about the Planes?
Will the new DMG have more information on the other Planes?
while they have a short and simple section on the planes, it's good enough for now. What bothers me is the lack of any deities, not even in the cleric section when it says you are empowered by your deity, yet it fails to even name one.
Because people will spend more money on new books that focus on the planes and deities. Of course people can rely on the old books...if they have hard copies.
Or the 2014 copies here; they're all still accessible and shareable.
while they have a short and simple section on the planes, it's good enough for now. What bothers me is the lack of any deities, not even in the cleric section when it says you are empowered by your deity, yet it fails to even name one.
Because people will spend more money on new books that focus on the planes and deities.
It's worldbuilding stuff. It's the province of the DM, and should be in the DMG. We already know that book's going to have Greyhawk as an example, so it seems pretty likely there'll be at least one example pantheon in there, along with advice on rolling your own.
And yes, the setting-specific information will be in setting-specific books. Which they sell.
But I, who have not used a published pantheon since the days of "I dunno, pick something from Deities and Demigods", don't have the Forgotten Realms' stuff in the PHB. It will be in the book of FR stuff, and sell to FR players, who want to buy it.
I just looked over Appendix A and, while space, I think is about right for the PHB. Players should have at least a rudimentary understanding of what the planes are.
I do think maybe one or two more sentences on the Feywild and Shadowfell would have been nice considering some subclasses are involved there (Fey wanderer and Gloomstalker ranger). And at least a mention of deities for cleric players.
I received my new 2024 PHB today and was going through it, one thing that I found super disappointing is that they seem to have removed all the deity and pantheon descriptions and tables and boiled down the descriptions of the other Planes to just a sentence a piece.
Why take out all the deities?
Why remove all the lore about the Planes?
Will the new DMG have more information on the other Planes?
while they have a short and simple section on the planes, it's good enough for now. What bothers me is the lack of any deities, not even in the cleric section when it says you are empowered by your deity, yet it fails to even name one.
Agreed.
Plane descriptions were condensed from a paragraph each to just a sentence. To me, that kinda makes sense as a player doesn't need to know as much about other planes as a DM should, but I hope more info on the Planes will be in the DMG for that reason.
The complete removal of deities from the PHB is absurd for the reason you mentioned. Deities are an integral part of multiple classes and can also just play a big part in a character's background if the player chooses to do so.
Seeing as the old DMG had large sections devoted to these systems, I'd bet that's where they decided to spend the ink in this revision. In a way, it even (almost) makes sense to not have deity's names in the PHB since it's the DM that makes (or decides on, at least) the world and systems of gods and other beings out of the players' control.
While true, It does create the need to give the player all that information instead of just telling them to turn to page 435 or whatever. For example, if we were going to run a game in the forgotten realms, you would have to tell me who the gods are and something about them and you will probably have to remind me a couple of times.
Granted I assume this information is going to be in the Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms and maybe the DMG when it comes to Greyhawk.
The goal appears to be that the PHB is about how to play, not about settings, and settings will be determined by the DM and/or specific setting books.
Agreed. Hence the "almost" ;).
im guessing they left them out to make the base rules as setting agnostic as possible.
They removed everything that was setting specific from the PHB. Forgotten Realms has different deities from Eberron or Dragonlance, for example. The PHB is probably meant to be the rules that apply to every setting, and setting specific content can be found in setting specific (both old and probably in the future new) books.
The difference between the 2014 and 2024 PHBs is that we now have 5th edition sourcebooks for some of these settings which give more detail on the setting-specific deities, such as the Dragonlance and Eberron pantheons. They’ve announced that they’re doing a Forgotten Realms sourcebook (two in fact) which may provide the FR pantheon.
They’ve said also that the new DMG will present Greyhawk as an exemplar campaign setting, so they might include an overview of the Greyhawk pantheon in that.
It literally says that all of that will be explored in greater detail in the coming DMG.
I prefer the core books to be setting agnostic, including the DMG. Information about deities and planes should be found in their respective settings books. I am not a fan of the organizational mess found in the old PHB and DMG. And for the 2024 PHB, I am still not a fan that they are still wasting ink and pages on Appendix A about the multiverse. If I have to carry around the physical books, I do not want to carry around irrelevant or duplicate lore to the adventure I am running.
Additionally, while I allow any and all options made by Wizards, not every GM is as permissive as I am, and some GMs prefer a tighter grip on world building information, especially if they run a homebrew campaign where the official information on deities and planes are irrelevant.
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I remember Chris Perkins mentioning a chapter about Cosmology in the 2024 DMG during this video: New 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide | First Look | D&D (around 8:30)
“Setting agnostic” is a nice set of buzzwords, but at the end of the day if you’re trying to write an actual roleplaying game rather than just a set of rules and mechanics, you need to actually spend some time designing a setting that informs the roles available for play. That is not to say the latter is not a legitimate game design option, but it has never been D&D’s choice and they don’t look to be changing models here. Plus, putting all setting and worldbuilding material in other books is also effectively saying people need to go out and buy more than the core 3 if they want to pick up the game unless they’re ready to build an entire setting from scratch, which would probably be rather daunting to a first-time DM. Having one generic high fantasy setting that fills in some of the basic boxes like “here are the good gods of x, y, and z, here are the evil gods of a, b, and c, and here’s where stuff like angels and demons come from” just provides a loose framework newbie DMs can build on and tweak rather than just telling them to figure it out on their own.
The core books should be just the about the core rules and mechanics. The place for lore is in setting and adventure books. The core books should contain stuff that is universal, and lore is not universal. If I am lugging around physical books, I prefer to lug around information that I will be actually be using.
People already need to go out to buy the core three anyways if they want detailed lore.
For first time GMs who want world building guidance, an example framework should be in the DMG, not PHB. There is absolutely no reason for the PHB to contain Appendix A, as not every GM will utilize D&D's official multiverse framework.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
Planes descriptions probably will be in the DMG, though, there is also Planescape.
Deities are available with the campaign worlds. Or make up your own.
Because people will spend more money on new books that focus on the planes and deities. Of course people can rely on the old books...if they have hard copies.
Or the 2014 copies here; they're all still accessible and shareable.
It's worldbuilding stuff. It's the province of the DM, and should be in the DMG. We already know that book's going to have Greyhawk as an example, so it seems pretty likely there'll be at least one example pantheon in there, along with advice on rolling your own.
And yes, the setting-specific information will be in setting-specific books. Which they sell.
But I, who have not used a published pantheon since the days of "I dunno, pick something from Deities and Demigods", don't have the Forgotten Realms' stuff in the PHB. It will be in the book of FR stuff, and sell to FR players, who want to buy it.
I just looked over Appendix A and, while space, I think is about right for the PHB. Players should have at least a rudimentary understanding of what the planes are.
I do think maybe one or two more sentences on the Feywild and Shadowfell would have been nice considering some subclasses are involved there (Fey wanderer and Gloomstalker ranger). And at least a mention of deities for cleric players.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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