I have been running into the constant problem of having very combat heavy campaigns, I play with a few groups and the problem is constant. Nearly no roleplaying. When we do roleplay it is often treated like a skill contest and not a conversation. Read the below and tell me what you think.
My Question; How do I either change the way our game is played to allow for diplomacy to be more realistically viable or how do I attempt to incorporate Roleplaying to NPCs into DND when a failed check will result in a hostile conflict against even a gentle merchant?
So I have been playing DND for a few years now with the same group. Its lots of fun, however, I have been noticing more and more lately that my attempts at diplomacy and persuasion are being hard blocked by the DM, this wouldnt be an issue if I just wanted to play DND as a combat simulator, where the only option is to kill, but role playing is my preferred way to solve problems. Out of nearly a dozen attempts using almost exclusively truthful answers, not a single attempt succeeded in spite of excellent role playing, logic and reason. My most recent attempt at diplomacy was my most deceptive of the lot, and likely my most successful (edit: second most deceptive actually, I recall trying to convince a caravan that there was a giant boar waiting behind a huge tree to ambush and devour humans (we threw rubble all over the road and wooden debris with some cloth to make it look like destroyed carts), we were attempting to delay the convoys arrival).
The most recent situation went as follows:
Some guards are guarding a stairwell. We wish to see what is at the bottom within a locked room. We inquire as to the nature of the disturbance requiring the presence of guards. We are given vague answers and told to leave, we begin to do so, but see a possible opportunity. We inform the guards, who have moved a few paces away from the stairs that we will be leaving, while doing so, our companion who has not introduced himself to the guards places a bucket just behind the heel of one of the guards, the guard stumbles and falls down the stairs, and I make a highly successful performance to show that I was attempting to save the guard. The bucket, having been full of ball bearings, tumbled down the stairs, spilling its contents throughout the stairway. The first of the two guards tumbles down as well. I make a persuasion on the remaining guard that we have to go help his companion, who could be seriously hurt. We proceed down the stairs. I stumble and grab onto the guard, and we collectively fall down the stairs. My companions, only one of which is known to the guards come down and evaluate that it is too dangerous to go up the stairs with injured people and so take the liberty of opening the room using the keys of one of the guards (who is unconscious) and opening some drawers in an attempt to find something interesting under the guise of searching for something to use to bandage our wounds. We send one of our PCs to the top of the stairs as a lookout, but instead of attempting to send guards away, we attempt to attract guards to aid in our deception. The PC tells them that there are 2 injured guards and an injured man (myself) at the bottom of the stairs in a room below and that the stairs are dangerous. We need help getting them out. More guards arrive and believe our story. They begin to extract the guards and myself. The guards who are injured corroborate my story, marking me as a good Samaritan attempting to do good. All is happy and well.
Keep in mind that throughout this, I have been on the ground, battered and bruised, though conscious, and have made about 6 or 7 successful persuasion, performance and deception checks while my allies have done nothing odd or criminal. We have been exceptionally careful not to anger anyone. We did however open some doors that were not locked or guarded while searching for medical gear (supposedly), no guards were angered by this upon their arrival. We saw some strange things, including a dead body (with a head), a severed head and a ritualistic pentagram. We left these rooms undisturbed only giving them a cursory visual examination, but asked the guard captain about them when an opportunity arose (so as to ensure we don't say anything we shouldn't to anyone who shouldn't know). By this point I have made over a dozen various successful charisma checks. I crit failed on that. A would be minor deception to someone who had already been endeared to us, nearly an ally, normally a fail here would make him think I was just overtly curious about the ritual, which I had calculated for as it would actually aid in our future persuasions as much as a success. He became instantly hostile and ordered for our arrest and detainment, I argued to him that his two companions below (who had been more badly injured in the fall than I had) should not be left to climb the ball bearing covered steps themselves and that he and the two healthy guards with him would need help getting them up the stairs (I rolled a 19 on the dice to persuade (I should mention that I have expertise in Persuasion as well)) and that we would patiently help and assist them and accompany them back to the guard building (cooperation combined with an attempt to deescalate). He flat out refused and drew his weapon to attack.
This had been a fairly lucky encounter. Our DM makes us roll persuasion or deception on every statement in a conversation and when any roll fails the target instantly becomes hostile and begins to attack. This has resulted in us avoiding diplomacy as an option most of the time, especially seeing as he rolls insight against even our truthful persuasions as though contesting our rolls (I know insight isn't usually rolled against persuasion).
My question again; How do I either change the way our game is played to allow for diplomacy to be more realistically viable or how do I attempt incorporate Roleplaying to NPCs into DND when a failed check will result in a hostile conflict against even a gentle merchant?
I should also mention that as a result of the rapid escalation, and knowing how our DM handles guards (if we end up in custody we will likely be executed or our characters will be retired for no reason other than that we have been arrested) we had to fight our way out, eventually resulting in us drawing the guards into the building and setting it on fire with the guards still inside. This isn't good roleplaying. It isn't realistic, and frankly about as disappointing as losing a battle and all dying. I am attempting to be Chaotic Good, but our DM seems to want us to all play Chaotic Evil, and through the above methods is preventing us from being anything other than murder hobos.
I imagine the solution is to make it so that deception is rolled with advantage when using well formed deceptions with no opposition and that persuasion should not be rolled unless it is something that opposes the will or desire of the one being persuaded. But I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter.
I would agree that this would be a frustrating environment to play in.
I would simply tell the DM that this is not a fun model of conflict resolution for you (and the group if they win). Noone will be able to statistically carry out numerous rolls perfectly to overcome a situation. It is just statistically improbable.
Share your concerns and any DM worth their salt will adjust.
Thank you, I will try to speak to him. Though I frequently find that, unchecked, our sessions have a habit slipping in this undesirable direction. I also find that it would inappropriate as a player to protest his story decisions while at the table. I will try however. Thank you.
I dunno... I am having a hard time finding a major issue with what you have described in the OP from the RPing standpoint. The whole thing sounds very much RPed, with the ball bearings and the pretending to search for medical supplies and whatnot. I don't quite know what you were expecting.
I mean think about what you found: a dead body, a head, and evidence of some potentially naughty rituals. This was in a section of the area that the guards were trying to keep people out of. Clearly, someone (of a higher pay grade than the guards, for sure) doesn't want you or anyone else going in there, and seeing all that stuff. And you went in, and you saw it, and then you had the poor judgement to talk about it with the guards. Now they know you saw what you were not supposed to see, and they can't pretend like maybe you didn't see it in thanks for "helping" them, because you opened your big mouths. Once you say something it is not possible for the guard captain to just wink and nod to you -- you fail your roll, yeah, he's probably going to turn somewhat hostile. He was presumably given orders that no one could see what was in the room, and he blew that order, and you started yapping about it, so he had to do something. For this example circumstance, I see nothing really wrong with how it went.
Now then... I do see something wrong with a merchant going hostile if you fail a check to negotiate prices down or that kind of thing. That is just silly. But your main complaint seems to be there is no real "RP" going on and yet your example looks full of RP to me.
It sounds to me like the real thing here is that you don't want there to be so many checks after just about every single line of dialogue. I'd agree, in principle, and probably not have required as many checks as your DM does. But that is really up to the DM to decide.
I think you should talk to the DM and explain your concerns but be prepared that the DM may want to do more rolling than you do, and you're probably going to have to accept that if he does.
Finally - you are 100% correct that you should not address such issues during play at the table. There should be no arguing with the DM at the table.
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I have been running into the constant problem of having very combat heavy campaigns, I play with a few groups and the problem is constant. Nearly no roleplaying. When we do roleplay it is often treated like a skill contest and not a conversation. Read the below and tell me what you think.
My Question; How do I either change the way our game is played to allow for diplomacy to be more realistically viable or how do I attempt to incorporate Roleplaying to NPCs into DND when a failed check will result in a hostile conflict against even a gentle merchant?
So I have been playing DND for a few years now with the same group. Its lots of fun, however, I have been noticing more and more lately that my attempts at diplomacy and persuasion are being hard blocked by the DM, this wouldnt be an issue if I just wanted to play DND as a combat simulator, where the only option is to kill, but role playing is my preferred way to solve problems. Out of nearly a dozen attempts using almost exclusively truthful answers, not a single attempt succeeded in spite of excellent role playing, logic and reason. My most recent attempt at diplomacy was my most deceptive of the lot, and likely my most successful (edit: second most deceptive actually, I recall trying to convince a caravan that there was a giant boar waiting behind a huge tree to ambush and devour humans (we threw rubble all over the road and wooden debris with some cloth to make it look like destroyed carts), we were attempting to delay the convoys arrival).
The most recent situation went as follows:
Some guards are guarding a stairwell. We wish to see what is at the bottom within a locked room. We inquire as to the nature of the disturbance requiring the presence of guards. We are given vague answers and told to leave, we begin to do so, but see a possible opportunity. We inform the guards, who have moved a few paces away from the stairs that we will be leaving, while doing so, our companion who has not introduced himself to the guards places a bucket just behind the heel of one of the guards, the guard stumbles and falls down the stairs, and I make a highly successful performance to show that I was attempting to save the guard. The bucket, having been full of ball bearings, tumbled down the stairs, spilling its contents throughout the stairway. The first of the two guards tumbles down as well. I make a persuasion on the remaining guard that we have to go help his companion, who could be seriously hurt. We proceed down the stairs. I stumble and grab onto the guard, and we collectively fall down the stairs. My companions, only one of which is known to the guards come down and evaluate that it is too dangerous to go up the stairs with injured people and so take the liberty of opening the room using the keys of one of the guards (who is unconscious) and opening some drawers in an attempt to find something interesting under the guise of searching for something to use to bandage our wounds. We send one of our PCs to the top of the stairs as a lookout, but instead of attempting to send guards away, we attempt to attract guards to aid in our deception. The PC tells them that there are 2 injured guards and an injured man (myself) at the bottom of the stairs in a room below and that the stairs are dangerous. We need help getting them out. More guards arrive and believe our story. They begin to extract the guards and myself. The guards who are injured corroborate my story, marking me as a good Samaritan attempting to do good. All is happy and well.
Keep in mind that throughout this, I have been on the ground, battered and bruised, though conscious, and have made about 6 or 7 successful persuasion, performance and deception checks while my allies have done nothing odd or criminal. We have been exceptionally careful not to anger anyone. We did however open some doors that were not locked or guarded while searching for medical gear (supposedly), no guards were angered by this upon their arrival. We saw some strange things, including a dead body (with a head), a severed head and a ritualistic pentagram. We left these rooms undisturbed only giving them a cursory visual examination, but asked the guard captain about them when an opportunity arose (so as to ensure we don't say anything we shouldn't to anyone who shouldn't know). By this point I have made over a dozen various successful charisma checks. I crit failed on that. A would be minor deception to someone who had already been endeared to us, nearly an ally, normally a fail here would make him think I was just overtly curious about the ritual, which I had calculated for as it would actually aid in our future persuasions as much as a success. He became instantly hostile and ordered for our arrest and detainment, I argued to him that his two companions below (who had been more badly injured in the fall than I had) should not be left to climb the ball bearing covered steps themselves and that he and the two healthy guards with him would need help getting them up the stairs (I rolled a 19 on the dice to persuade (I should mention that I have expertise in Persuasion as well)) and that we would patiently help and assist them and accompany them back to the guard building (cooperation combined with an attempt to deescalate). He flat out refused and drew his weapon to attack.
This had been a fairly lucky encounter. Our DM makes us roll persuasion or deception on every statement in a conversation and when any roll fails the target instantly becomes hostile and begins to attack. This has resulted in us avoiding diplomacy as an option most of the time, especially seeing as he rolls insight against even our truthful persuasions as though contesting our rolls (I know insight isn't usually rolled against persuasion).
My question again; How do I either change the way our game is played to allow for diplomacy to be more realistically viable or how do I attempt incorporate Roleplaying to NPCs into DND when a failed check will result in a hostile conflict against even a gentle merchant?
I should also mention that as a result of the rapid escalation, and knowing how our DM handles guards (if we end up in custody we will likely be executed or our characters will be retired for no reason other than that we have been arrested) we had to fight our way out, eventually resulting in us drawing the guards into the building and setting it on fire with the guards still inside. This isn't good roleplaying. It isn't realistic, and frankly about as disappointing as losing a battle and all dying. I am attempting to be Chaotic Good, but our DM seems to want us to all play Chaotic Evil, and through the above methods is preventing us from being anything other than murder hobos.
I imagine the solution is to make it so that deception is rolled with advantage when using well formed deceptions with no opposition and that persuasion should not be rolled unless it is something that opposes the will or desire of the one being persuaded. But I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter.
I would agree that this would be a frustrating environment to play in.
I would simply tell the DM that this is not a fun model of conflict resolution for you (and the group if they win). Noone will be able to statistically carry out numerous rolls perfectly to overcome a situation. It is just statistically improbable.
Share your concerns and any DM worth their salt will adjust.
Chad
Thank you, I will try to speak to him. Though I frequently find that, unchecked, our sessions have a habit slipping in this undesirable direction. I also find that it would inappropriate as a player to protest his story decisions while at the table. I will try however. Thank you.
I dunno... I am having a hard time finding a major issue with what you have described in the OP from the RPing standpoint. The whole thing sounds very much RPed, with the ball bearings and the pretending to search for medical supplies and whatnot. I don't quite know what you were expecting.
I mean think about what you found: a dead body, a head, and evidence of some potentially naughty rituals. This was in a section of the area that the guards were trying to keep people out of. Clearly, someone (of a higher pay grade than the guards, for sure) doesn't want you or anyone else going in there, and seeing all that stuff. And you went in, and you saw it, and then you had the poor judgement to talk about it with the guards. Now they know you saw what you were not supposed to see, and they can't pretend like maybe you didn't see it in thanks for "helping" them, because you opened your big mouths. Once you say something it is not possible for the guard captain to just wink and nod to you -- you fail your roll, yeah, he's probably going to turn somewhat hostile. He was presumably given orders that no one could see what was in the room, and he blew that order, and you started yapping about it, so he had to do something. For this example circumstance, I see nothing really wrong with how it went.
Now then... I do see something wrong with a merchant going hostile if you fail a check to negotiate prices down or that kind of thing. That is just silly. But your main complaint seems to be there is no real "RP" going on and yet your example looks full of RP to me.
It sounds to me like the real thing here is that you don't want there to be so many checks after just about every single line of dialogue. I'd agree, in principle, and probably not have required as many checks as your DM does. But that is really up to the DM to decide.
I think you should talk to the DM and explain your concerns but be prepared that the DM may want to do more rolling than you do, and you're probably going to have to accept that if he does.
Finally - you are 100% correct that you should not address such issues during play at the table. There should be no arguing with the DM at the table.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.