Hey guys, sorry for the long post, please bear with me. This is bothering me a lot.
Our group of friends have been playing for about 2 years or so. Some additions and subtractions but the same core group. We started when one friend who has played with another group got us together and asked if we wanted to try. Another friend, really organized and intelligent (in a pre-med school, not nerdy type of way) was DMing, made status/initiative trackers, monster manuals and other tools that even I use now (using Excel though was contemplating making his own software).
Based on some rulings (many times stating that I was powergaming -- although I would say I just played very optimized) and seeing how after about a year give or take of doing LMoP I noticed that he was getting a little restless so I volunteered to DM the next campaign. Queue a few months later, we ended LMoP in a TPK (not the point of my post so don't worry).
Let me preface that I am NOT a center stage guy, not a good speaker, not nearly as organized or focused as I am, but probably the most 'into' DnD so I definitely know the most (class features/spells/rules, etc) out of my friends, not a rules lawyer but good enough so at least "I know my S@#t".
Without doing too much research into each published adventure (so as not to spoil it if I do it later as a player), I decided on doing Tales from the Yawning Portal. Reading into it, I felt that the different 'chapters' or adventures give a different taste so we're not stuck on one theme/adventure for 15 levels and as an emergency if I feel that I'm getting too overwhelmed, each chapter/adventure has enough of a break where I can excuse myself and either someone can take over/start a new campaign without it feeling too much like a halt mid-campaign.
For the most part, I really do like the campaign, I've even added A LOT of personal touches for my players including personal quests/sidequests and personal goals and some custom items/encounters. For the most part the players love it. My biggest dislikes is that it is extremely linear (each adventure recommending a specific level range which has made me decided to go the milestone route instead of XP which makes things easier. The players aren't obsessed with clearing every room and every monster strictly for xp -- but for interest). Also the book does a HORRIBLE job of linking each adventure to the next... but with the almost necessity that they ARE played linearly... made it very annoying. I had to work with story and individual character hooks and seeds to line things up accordingly (I have even tried giving certain seeds and hooks ahead of time so it's not immediate but then players want to pursue the leads IMMEDIATELY when they're not ready, etc). It's been to a point where the session for the hook to the very next adventure that specific character said he may not come and I almost had a heart attack because that WAS the way the characters were going to make it to the next adventure, but, for the most part its going well.
(the main point of this post:)
All that intro done, I've noticed that during more than one session the past DM has looked bored or uninterested. After sessions, I've asked him for feedback or questions or just what's wrong. Once in a while he would say, like after the 1st and 2nd session would say that it felt a little robotic and monotonous so I spend more time half memorizing and just reading and paraphrasing so it sounds more natural... he gave other concerns, and I've tried to heed them but mostly he just shook them off. I tried pressing him but kept saying that all is good, don't change the session for him, etc etc.
This past session where we all did it through Roll20 due to the quarantine. Again, he looked bored but then halfway through he said he had to go. We all said good night. During the session, this adventure being Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, with the gas (for those that don't know, there is a gas that permeates throughout the majority of the dungeon that causes 1d6 damage every hour until they get through it). One of the players asked if Tiny Hut would allow them a safe long rest. I said no because it's a gas and would permeate through. Even though the spell says that regardless of the weather, the people in the hut are comfortable. After the session, I did look it up and there are debates on both sides. One forum post suggested talking with your players instead of just pulling Rule 0. I did, I explained that i DO hear his side but this is a pretty unique dungeon, I gave them the ability to redo an unlimited about of skill checks, like opening things or picking locks.. since generally time is arbitrary, here, where time is a factor, it is not.. This is essentially a puzzle dungeon with a race against the clock. IF you remove the clock, then it's almost a breeze.
The past DM messaged me privately that he felt that since the player specifically dedicated Tiny Hut and prepared for it he should be rewarded for his creatively. I explained what I said above. Also, if the hut was cast underwater, that should give the players water breath for the next 8 hours too? He said that that's debateable.. I answered, yes it is, but to keep the uniqueness of the dungeon and to prevent a cakewalk, I'm sticking with the side of the debate that says no. Nothing against the players, actually the opposite. He literally complained that a different dungeon was too long and boring.
A few hours later, he then told me that he doesn't think he can make any more sessions. I said, not a problem, is everything okay? (thinking it was a family thing or time issue). He said that he doesn't think this campaign is for him. He's not enjoying himself, the campaign feels way too railroaded, there's no overarching villain for him to want to continue moving forward and doesn't want to continue playing for this campaign. (another player volunteered once we are done so hopefully will be playing more after).
Obviously, its a blow and before you say "well screw him, the other players are enjoying" (one had to stop playing due to new job schedule, after 2 sessions made his boss change his schedule so he can come again). or even, "well, a player shouldn't have to play if they don't like it", I LITERALLY volunteered to DM, something I was NOT comfortable doing SPECIFICALLY to give him a break, specifically to give him a PC perspective on playing. I'm pretty sure he also did not how I ruled in certain things (when someone was invisible he wanted to shoot, I told him disadvantage for sure, but to also give me a general area of the room of where he is aiming. he didn't like that. After unlocking the forge in the 2nd adventure, I didn't fully hatch my 'crafting' (i'm literally going through the DMG and making an excel on how to/what ingredients to craft things). After him wanting and me giving him a +1 plate armor at level 5 getting his AC to like 22 (24 with shield of faith) realizing that that's a bit too much, explaining that I WILL allow him to craft but just give me time to think how to do it properly (balancing the game for both me and them) then literally asking him to remove it from his inventory definitely stung him a bit.
I don't want to say I'll just throw this campaign out and change the entire campaign for him, but I definitely want to change things for his desires. moreso than other players. He wants to have a more open adventure? Sure, let them fight the level 12 giants at level 5. He wants to craft legendary armor, I have half a want to just give it to him. (not even out of spite).
Looking back, I definitely may have stopped some things that he wanted to do, not out of any personal reasons but again, may have stifled his interests.
To add, other than being such a linear adventure, I know that he prefers to RP over combat (though he's pretty good at it). So I want to try to add more RP situations although I'm not so good at that. Does anyone have more advice on that? If you're familiar with the Yawning Portal campaign and have specifics all the better (we're currently halfway through Tomoachan)
To me, it sounds like he is looking for an open world game and that he is bored playing a module.
An open world adventure doesn't mean fighting level 12 giants at level 5; it means going from the Yawning Portal into the city of Waterdeep and spending some coin, get into a bar brawl, or even meet an alluring and mysterious stranger.
If you are able to convince him to return, I have a few bits of potential additions.
Create a cult that is operating out of the Mad Mage's Dungeon if you don't want to use Halaster himself or his apprentices. Create a cult leader, like Thulsa Doom from Conan. This will give them a reason to keep going, they have to stop him.
Run rp sessions between the module adventures. Let them chill in the tavern and talk to local adventurers or take in a bardic performance. This will break the progression but it will take the game off rails and allow them to explore a bit. Give them an RP reason to go to the next part of the dungeon. Let them build a reputation that makes people seek them out to go to the dungeon for spell components or to rescue someone.
But, at the end of the day, it is a game and sometimes people just stop playing.
I was actually thinking of having Acerak return. The final dungeon is actually a gauntlet of his tomb/phylactery vault and the 5th dungeon is the Red Wizard's of Thay's doomvault that Acerak made but was taken over by another wizard. The 4th dungeon, 'white plume mountain' can have Acerak as Keraptis's master and the 6th one, against the giants have an underlying villain pulling strings. I can have Acerak be that villain. Additionally, 3 of the players played Tomb of Annihilation and when I told them that they're visiting Chult to get to Tomoachan, they all had a PTSD episode (which was nice). I intended to to have the villages praise the previous heroes of Acerak's demise.. but they got distracted by the setting, and I got distracted and forget to tell them. I can always have the villagers do that as they take a boat back to Waterdeep..... I could've put some hints and things in the previous dungeons (with a little more effort) but I didn't think of it and none of the players seem to care.. If I do leave hints of an overarching villain will it feel like it's forced for his sake? (whether or not it is, I don't want it to feel like something that shouldn't be)...
So..... We actually had an outing in Waterdeep. It went ok. One of the hooks for one of the players, had his old mentor tell him to meet a Guild leader (Order of the Gauntlet) who has more information. After visiting the guildhall and being told that the leader is out on a mission and will be back in a few days, and after telling them that they should be done with the next dungeon in a few days (another instance of trying to railroad them) they insisted on staying around the down so they all took a downtime activity. ( I introduced them to downtime activities when they were traveling, explained to them about it and said we'll start off with 'creating spell scrolls', so now they wanted to do a few things more).... I forgot what the ex DM originally asked to do, maybe buy a magical item? He ended up asking to sell his spell scrolls that he made. Based on a chart I found in the DMG and how he rolled, he was only offered half of what it even cost to make it, definitely giving him another sour taste in his mouth. I didn't realize that and I think I offered only a little more than what he spent, or not. I don't remember. but I feel that I am unintentionally doing things to him that are disappointing. I admit that when it was reversed there were things that I asked to do that were also refused. I honestly want to say that it is not intended, I hope that it is not subconscious. I genuinely do review things that he asks and rules that he counters to me and don't do it to out him.
I also REALLY do want to allow them to craft (almost) anything, I want to give them epic items and maybe a little too quick to offer these things without properly finding a way to implement them, with example of the crafting forge and allowing him to take the +1 armor but then I Realize what I've done or am about to do regarding the balance of the game as a whole and, though not often, take it back. I have allowed a lot of other things and they're still being done but that one or 2 times where I had to remove it, definitely left a stinging mark, and that it happened with him makes me feel absolutely terrible.
Regarding the ex-DM having issues as a player... I have had this experience. After you GM for a long time, it is very hard to put aside the GM mindset. It's like when you are a passenger in a car, and you react with your foot to the floor like you are stepping on the brakes. You can't help it... your GM hat just comes out and puts itself on your head without your permission and you start thinking like a GM. I often find myself second-guessing the GM, and I try not to say anything out loud, but I can't help what happens in my head. "I would not rule like this," or "I would have done this differently." It is not possible to stop thinking like that, for me.
Now, I try hard not to let this ruin my experience as a player. But it can be very difficult, and this may be what your ex-DM was experiencing. It can be very hard to lay aside the mantle, even when you are burned out and feel like you want to lay it down.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
We've had a DM who started our first campaign, took a break for the next, and then started one we're on now.
At the same time, one of the players started a game for some coworkers and invited me since we have similar playstyles and I know a lot of the rules. After a few sessions in, the old DM joined as a player. Problem is, he keeps wanting to either rush through everything (like he did on my game) or try to over-rule the decisions of the DM. We've had to shut him down, but it's strained both campaigns.
As said in the previous post, it's very hard for some to let go, especially if they're not finding their preferred style in a game. Our main DM tends to play it like a wargame, always complaining about players being OP for using their class abilities, while some of us prefer a more RP heavy campaign. We just muddle through and try to figure out ahead what will cause conflicts so we can head it off.
For your situation, I don't know what else you can do if they're not willing to work on it. They have to engage as well. It may take a few sessions before they decide to come back, or they may choose not to until they're up again.
Hey guys, sorry for the long post, please bear with me. This is bothering me a lot.
Our group of friends have been playing for about 2 years or so. Some additions and subtractions but the same core group. We started when one friend who has played with another group got us together and asked if we wanted to try. Another friend, really organized and intelligent (in a pre-med school, not nerdy type of way) was DMing, made status/initiative trackers, monster manuals and other tools that even I use now (using Excel though was contemplating making his own software).
Based on some rulings (many times stating that I was powergaming -- although I would say I just played very optimized) and seeing how after about a year give or take of doing LMoP I noticed that he was getting a little restless so I volunteered to DM the next campaign. Queue a few months later, we ended LMoP in a TPK (not the point of my post so don't worry).
Let me preface that I am NOT a center stage guy, not a good speaker, not nearly as organized or focused as I am, but probably the most 'into' DnD so I definitely know the most (class features/spells/rules, etc) out of my friends, not a rules lawyer but good enough so at least "I know my S@#t".
Without doing too much research into each published adventure (so as not to spoil it if I do it later as a player), I decided on doing Tales from the Yawning Portal. Reading into it, I felt that the different 'chapters' or adventures give a different taste so we're not stuck on one theme/adventure for 15 levels and as an emergency if I feel that I'm getting too overwhelmed, each chapter/adventure has enough of a break where I can excuse myself and either someone can take over/start a new campaign without it feeling too much like a halt mid-campaign.
For the most part, I really do like the campaign, I've even added A LOT of personal touches for my players including personal quests/sidequests and personal goals and some custom items/encounters. For the most part the players love it. My biggest dislikes is that it is extremely linear (each adventure recommending a specific level range which has made me decided to go the milestone route instead of XP which makes things easier. The players aren't obsessed with clearing every room and every monster strictly for xp -- but for interest). Also the book does a HORRIBLE job of linking each adventure to the next... but with the almost necessity that they ARE played linearly... made it very annoying. I had to work with story and individual character hooks and seeds to line things up accordingly (I have even tried giving certain seeds and hooks ahead of time so it's not immediate but then players want to pursue the leads IMMEDIATELY when they're not ready, etc). It's been to a point where the session for the hook to the very next adventure that specific character said he may not come and I almost had a heart attack because that WAS the way the characters were going to make it to the next adventure, but, for the most part its going well.
(the main point of this post:)
All that intro done, I've noticed that during more than one session the past DM has looked bored or uninterested. After sessions, I've asked him for feedback or questions or just what's wrong. Once in a while he would say, like after the 1st and 2nd session would say that it felt a little robotic and monotonous so I spend more time half memorizing and just reading and paraphrasing so it sounds more natural... he gave other concerns, and I've tried to heed them but mostly he just shook them off. I tried pressing him but kept saying that all is good, don't change the session for him, etc etc.
This past session where we all did it through Roll20 due to the quarantine. Again, he looked bored but then halfway through he said he had to go. We all said good night. During the session, this adventure being Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, with the gas (for those that don't know, there is a gas that permeates throughout the majority of the dungeon that causes 1d6 damage every hour until they get through it). One of the players asked if Tiny Hut would allow them a safe long rest. I said no because it's a gas and would permeate through. Even though the spell says that regardless of the weather, the people in the hut are comfortable. After the session, I did look it up and there are debates on both sides. One forum post suggested talking with your players instead of just pulling Rule 0. I did, I explained that i DO hear his side but this is a pretty unique dungeon, I gave them the ability to redo an unlimited about of skill checks, like opening things or picking locks.. since generally time is arbitrary, here, where time is a factor, it is not.. This is essentially a puzzle dungeon with a race against the clock. IF you remove the clock, then it's almost a breeze.
The past DM messaged me privately that he felt that since the player specifically dedicated Tiny Hut and prepared for it he should be rewarded for his creatively. I explained what I said above. Also, if the hut was cast underwater, that should give the players water breath for the next 8 hours too? He said that that's debateable.. I answered, yes it is, but to keep the uniqueness of the dungeon and to prevent a cakewalk, I'm sticking with the side of the debate that says no. Nothing against the players, actually the opposite. He literally complained that a different dungeon was too long and boring.
A few hours later, he then told me that he doesn't think he can make any more sessions. I said, not a problem, is everything okay? (thinking it was a family thing or time issue). He said that he doesn't think this campaign is for him. He's not enjoying himself, the campaign feels way too railroaded, there's no overarching villain for him to want to continue moving forward and doesn't want to continue playing for this campaign. (another player volunteered once we are done so hopefully will be playing more after).
Obviously, its a blow and before you say "well screw him, the other players are enjoying" (one had to stop playing due to new job schedule, after 2 sessions made his boss change his schedule so he can come again). or even, "well, a player shouldn't have to play if they don't like it", I LITERALLY volunteered to DM, something I was NOT comfortable doing SPECIFICALLY to give him a break, specifically to give him a PC perspective on playing. I'm pretty sure he also did not how I ruled in certain things (when someone was invisible he wanted to shoot, I told him disadvantage for sure, but to also give me a general area of the room of where he is aiming. he didn't like that. After unlocking the forge in the 2nd adventure, I didn't fully hatch my 'crafting' (i'm literally going through the DMG and making an excel on how to/what ingredients to craft things). After him wanting and me giving him a +1 plate armor at level 5 getting his AC to like 22 (24 with shield of faith) realizing that that's a bit too much, explaining that I WILL allow him to craft but just give me time to think how to do it properly (balancing the game for both me and them) then literally asking him to remove it from his inventory definitely stung him a bit.
I don't want to say I'll just throw this campaign out and change the entire campaign for him, but I definitely want to change things for his desires. moreso than other players. He wants to have a more open adventure? Sure, let them fight the level 12 giants at level 5. He wants to craft legendary armor, I have half a want to just give it to him. (not even out of spite).
Looking back, I definitely may have stopped some things that he wanted to do, not out of any personal reasons but again, may have stifled his interests.
Any advice?
To add, other than being such a linear adventure, I know that he prefers to RP over combat (though he's pretty good at it). So I want to try to add more RP situations although I'm not so good at that. Does anyone have more advice on that? If you're familiar with the Yawning Portal campaign and have specifics all the better (we're currently halfway through Tomoachan)
To me, it sounds like he is looking for an open world game and that he is bored playing a module.
An open world adventure doesn't mean fighting level 12 giants at level 5; it means going from the Yawning Portal into the city of Waterdeep and spending some coin, get into a bar brawl, or even meet an alluring and mysterious stranger.
If you are able to convince him to return, I have a few bits of potential additions.
Create a cult that is operating out of the Mad Mage's Dungeon if you don't want to use Halaster himself or his apprentices. Create a cult leader, like Thulsa Doom from Conan. This will give them a reason to keep going, they have to stop him.
Run rp sessions between the module adventures. Let them chill in the tavern and talk to local adventurers or take in a bardic performance. This will break the progression but it will take the game off rails and allow them to explore a bit. Give them an RP reason to go to the next part of the dungeon. Let them build a reputation that makes people seek them out to go to the dungeon for spell components or to rescue someone.
But, at the end of the day, it is a game and sometimes people just stop playing.
I hope this helped.
I was actually thinking of having Acerak return. The final dungeon is actually a gauntlet of his tomb/phylactery vault and the 5th dungeon is the Red Wizard's of Thay's doomvault that Acerak made but was taken over by another wizard. The 4th dungeon, 'white plume mountain' can have Acerak as Keraptis's master and the 6th one, against the giants have an underlying villain pulling strings. I can have Acerak be that villain. Additionally, 3 of the players played Tomb of Annihilation and when I told them that they're visiting Chult to get to Tomoachan, they all had a PTSD episode (which was nice). I intended to to have the villages praise the previous heroes of Acerak's demise.. but they got distracted by the setting, and I got distracted and forget to tell them. I can always have the villagers do that as they take a boat back to Waterdeep..... I could've put some hints and things in the previous dungeons (with a little more effort) but I didn't think of it and none of the players seem to care.. If I do leave hints of an overarching villain will it feel like it's forced for his sake? (whether or not it is, I don't want it to feel like something that shouldn't be)...
So..... We actually had an outing in Waterdeep. It went ok. One of the hooks for one of the players, had his old mentor tell him to meet a Guild leader (Order of the Gauntlet) who has more information. After visiting the guildhall and being told that the leader is out on a mission and will be back in a few days, and after telling them that they should be done with the next dungeon in a few days (another instance of trying to railroad them) they insisted on staying around the down so they all took a downtime activity. ( I introduced them to downtime activities when they were traveling, explained to them about it and said we'll start off with 'creating spell scrolls', so now they wanted to do a few things more).... I forgot what the ex DM originally asked to do, maybe buy a magical item? He ended up asking to sell his spell scrolls that he made. Based on a chart I found in the DMG and how he rolled, he was only offered half of what it even cost to make it, definitely giving him another sour taste in his mouth. I didn't realize that and I think I offered only a little more than what he spent, or not. I don't remember. but I feel that I am unintentionally doing things to him that are disappointing. I admit that when it was reversed there were things that I asked to do that were also refused. I honestly want to say that it is not intended, I hope that it is not subconscious. I genuinely do review things that he asks and rules that he counters to me and don't do it to out him.
I also REALLY do want to allow them to craft (almost) anything, I want to give them epic items and maybe a little too quick to offer these things without properly finding a way to implement them, with example of the crafting forge and allowing him to take the +1 armor but then I Realize what I've done or am about to do regarding the balance of the game as a whole and, though not often, take it back. I have allowed a lot of other things and they're still being done but that one or 2 times where I had to remove it, definitely left a stinging mark, and that it happened with him makes me feel absolutely terrible.
Regarding the ex-DM having issues as a player... I have had this experience. After you GM for a long time, it is very hard to put aside the GM mindset. It's like when you are a passenger in a car, and you react with your foot to the floor like you are stepping on the brakes. You can't help it... your GM hat just comes out and puts itself on your head without your permission and you start thinking like a GM. I often find myself second-guessing the GM, and I try not to say anything out loud, but I can't help what happens in my head. "I would not rule like this," or "I would have done this differently." It is not possible to stop thinking like that, for me.
Now, I try hard not to let this ruin my experience as a player. But it can be very difficult, and this may be what your ex-DM was experiencing. It can be very hard to lay aside the mantle, even when you are burned out and feel like you want to lay it down.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
We've had a DM who started our first campaign, took a break for the next, and then started one we're on now.
At the same time, one of the players started a game for some coworkers and invited me since we have similar playstyles and I know a lot of the rules. After a few sessions in, the old DM joined as a player. Problem is, he keeps wanting to either rush through everything (like he did on my game) or try to over-rule the decisions of the DM. We've had to shut him down, but it's strained both campaigns.
As said in the previous post, it's very hard for some to let go, especially if they're not finding their preferred style in a game. Our main DM tends to play it like a wargame, always complaining about players being OP for using their class abilities, while some of us prefer a more RP heavy campaign. We just muddle through and try to figure out ahead what will cause conflicts so we can head it off.
For your situation, I don't know what else you can do if they're not willing to work on it. They have to engage as well. It may take a few sessions before they decide to come back, or they may choose not to until they're up again.