One of the ways Rangers are limited in 5e is by having to select specific spells, unlike Paladins who get to swap spells after every long rest.
If Rangers are to Druids what Paladins are to Clerics, Rangers should pick spells like Paladins.
Rangers are supposed to be adept at survival, flexible, and canny in all situations. This change would boost that feature without upsetting the balance, in my opinion.
I don’t think this is game-breaking, and would definitely allow it any game at my table. What do you think?
Honestly, I think it makes more sense for a Ranger to be able to Prepare Spells each Long Rest while a Paladin doesn't. Just one of those weird quirks of the game, I suppose. Although in my experience most of the players I know who play a class that can Prepare Spells ends up just treating it as knowing a limited set of spells anyway.
Ranger's don't interact with a divinity or the divine in any meaningful way. They learn nature based spells because that's their theater of operation, but they don't receive their powers by divine mediation, unlike Druids, Clerics and Paladins. In this way they are more like outdoorsy Bards. The real question is why do Artificers get to choose their spells every day? I suspect, on that latter question, that WotC wanted to make them like Wizards, but without the additional rules complexity of a new, spell-book like construct with a different, reduced set of capabilities.
For Artificers, I really like the idea that was pushed a bit harder in the UA, where the Artificers "spells" are more like equipment that's been invented to replicate the effects of a spell. So an artificer "preparing" new spells represents them physically disassembling some of their other inventions and using them as resources to create something new.
If Rangers are to Druids what Paladins are to Clerics, ...
That's an if I'd say is not really pertinent. Clerics are militant priests, paladins are defined by their oath, druids revere nature and rangers are wilderness warriors. There's no real A is to B as C is to D analogy here. These classes are (and should be) their own concept, especially with subclasses handling variations on those concepts.
I agree rangers should get to prepare spells from a larger selection, but not because of some nebulous comparison to other classes. Ranger magic is a little bit anemic as is, that's something that could be addressed this way.
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Ranger's don't interact with a divinity or the divine in any meaningful way. They learn nature based spells because that's their theater of operation, but they don't receive their powers by divine mediation, unlike Druids, Clerics and Paladins.
The only reason that’s true in 5e is that they don’t prepare their spells in 5e. The point of this thread is to suggest that they should (as they did in previous editions).
If I remember correctly Jeremy Crawford has mentioned before it was an intentional decision since the Ranger spell list has a much bigger focus on utility/exploration/crowd control spells than Paladins, which largely just pick from smites, buffs and heals. On a completely subjective level I like it because it tells a very similar story to Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters - they're specialists that have dabbled just enough in druidic magic to put together a personalized spell list that suits their needs, but they don't have the luxury of going deep enough into that discipline to switch spells on a whim. That said I do wish the PH subclasses had come with extra spells to bump up their pathetic number of Spells Known starting out.
Ranger's don't interact with a divinity or the divine in any meaningful way. They learn nature based spells because that's their theater of operation, but they don't receive their powers by divine mediation, unlike Druids, Clerics and Paladins.
The only reason that’s true in 5e is that they don’t prepare their spells in 5e. The point of this thread is to suggest that they should (as they did in previous editions).
My impression that Rangers do not interact with the divine other than peripherally comes from the Ranger description in the PHB as well as the class's overall treatment in popular fiction, and also that is how I would limn the standard rule set in my own lore (actually, the one Ranger in my current game derives her magic from an arcane artifact suffused with magical energy from the Far Realm that was created by an ancient Warlock to provide a defense against extradimensional incursion, but Horizon Walkers are weird). I don't think that your lore / rules adaptation is particularly unbalanced, considering how weak the Ranger class is in 5e (at least without the optional features provided in TCoE). Personally, as a player, I would rather have access to at least some additional Wizard spells as a Ranger instead of being able to choose my spell slots everyday since the Ranger spellbook is pretty underwhelming in general (Pass Without Trace being a notable exception). For example, how awesome would a Gloom Stalker Ranger be that at 5th level got access to Shadow Blade, a spell that except in certain edge cases, Wizards have no business learning, but is dynamite for any martial class with spell slots?
One of the ways Rangers are limited in 5e is by having to select specific spells, unlike Paladins who get to swap spells after every long rest.
If Rangers are to Druids what Paladins are to Clerics, Rangers should pick spells like Paladins.
Rangers are supposed to be adept at survival, flexible, and canny in all situations. This change would boost that feature without upsetting the balance, in my opinion.
I don’t think this is game-breaking, and would definitely allow it any game at my table. What do you think?
From a balance perspective, this is a buff, because the preparation rules for Rangers would be L/2 + W, where L is Ranger Level and W is wisdom modifier, while their current number of known spells is (L+1)/2 + 1. That means a Ranger with a wisdom modifier of +2 or better has more spells to choose from post-change. With a modifier of +1, the number is equivalent, and with +0 or worse, the Ranger loses spells available. Because the preparation rules free them from changing their known spells only when they level, they can choose to load up with high-level spells, they can also meaningfully change their average spell level known, but this isn't a meaningful buff in any way, since you can't down-cast spells.
But the Ranger spell list is so bad, I don't think there's anything wrong with providing this buff.
I really don't know how anyone can call a spell list that includes Cure Wounds, Goodberry, Hunter's Mark, Fog Cloud, Absorb Elements, Ensnaring Strike, Pass Without Trace, Silence, Spike Growth, Healing Spirit and Lesser Restoration "bad".
I really don't know how anyone can call a spell list that includes Cure Wounds, Goodberry, Hunter's Mark, Fog Cloud, Absorb Elements, Ensnaring Strike, Pass Without Trace, Silence, Spike Growth, Healing Spirit and Lesser Restoration "bad".
TBH I have rarely even seen cure wounds used if the class has healing word or healing spirit. I would rather pick up healing spirit ASAP and forget cure wounds as a ranger.
Hunters is good but since so many other good spells on their list are concentration it makes it difficult. They suffer like druids with the concentration required spell issue.
I don't disagree with that, though Cure Wounds will still stop people from dying in a pinch before 5th level or when you're out of 2nd level slots or can't drop concentration for Healing Spirit.
The Ranger spell list is good. Better than the Paladin spell list in my opinion (they get far more done through smites and auras and Channel Divinity.) The issue isn't that Rangers have bad spells, it's that they have good spells but only get to bring Hunter's Mark and one other spell starting out. It's unnecessarily restrictive since they don't have all that many spell slots to begin with and any turn they cast an action spell is a turn they're losing a lot of damage.
One of the ways Rangers are limited in 5e is by having to select specific spells, unlike Paladins who get to swap spells after every long rest.
If Rangers are to Druids what Paladins are to Clerics, Rangers should pick spells like Paladins.
Rangers are supposed to be adept at survival, flexible, and canny in all situations. This change would boost that feature without upsetting the balance, in my opinion.
I don’t think this is game-breaking, and would definitely allow it any game at my table. What do you think?
I allow my ranger player to change 1 spell each long rest. This has not broken anything.
I let all of my casters change their spells after a long rest. It isn't all that big a deal and for those that can only change spells when they level up, can be painful. They could be stuck with a less useful spell for many sessions waiting for a level.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I let all of my casters change their spells after a long rest. It isn't all that big a deal and for those that can only change spells when they level up, can be painful. They could be stuck with a less useful spell for many sessions waiting for a level.
I let all of my casters change their spells after a long rest. It isn't all that big a deal and for those that can only change spells when they level up, can be painful. They could be stuck with a less useful spell for many sessions waiting for a level.
That's why I let them change 1 spell/long rest. I feel this retains the spirit of the rule, that they can't just change their whole array in one go, but allows them to change something each time. So far, it has not been an issue for either the Ranger or the Sorcerer who are using this rule.
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Honestly, I think it makes more sense for a Ranger to be able to Prepare Spells each Long Rest while a Paladin doesn't. Just one of those weird quirks of the game, I suppose. Although in my experience most of the players I know who play a class that can Prepare Spells ends up just treating it as knowing a limited set of spells anyway.
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I houserule this in my game. Rangers prepare half their level plus their Wisdom modifier spells from their list every day.
I just wish D&D Beyond offered the tools needed to do this elegantly.
Ranger's don't interact with a divinity or the divine in any meaningful way. They learn nature based spells because that's their theater of operation, but they don't receive their powers by divine mediation, unlike Druids, Clerics and Paladins. In this way they are more like outdoorsy Bards. The real question is why do Artificers get to choose their spells every day? I suspect, on that latter question, that WotC wanted to make them like Wizards, but without the additional rules complexity of a new, spell-book like construct with a different, reduced set of capabilities.
For Artificers, I really like the idea that was pushed a bit harder in the UA, where the Artificers "spells" are more like equipment that's been invented to replicate the effects of a spell. So an artificer "preparing" new spells represents them physically disassembling some of their other inventions and using them as resources to create something new.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
That's an if I'd say is not really pertinent. Clerics are militant priests, paladins are defined by their oath, druids revere nature and rangers are wilderness warriors. There's no real A is to B as C is to D analogy here. These classes are (and should be) their own concept, especially with subclasses handling variations on those concepts.
I agree rangers should get to prepare spells from a larger selection, but not because of some nebulous comparison to other classes. Ranger magic is a little bit anemic as is, that's something that could be addressed this way.
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The only reason that’s true in 5e is that they don’t prepare their spells in 5e. The point of this thread is to suggest that they should (as they did in previous editions).
If I remember correctly Jeremy Crawford has mentioned before it was an intentional decision since the Ranger spell list has a much bigger focus on utility/exploration/crowd control spells than Paladins, which largely just pick from smites, buffs and heals. On a completely subjective level I like it because it tells a very similar story to Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters - they're specialists that have dabbled just enough in druidic magic to put together a personalized spell list that suits their needs, but they don't have the luxury of going deep enough into that discipline to switch spells on a whim. That said I do wish the PH subclasses had come with extra spells to bump up their pathetic number of Spells Known starting out.
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Except that Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are subclasses, not the class itself.
What's that got to do with the narrative explanation for their spellcasting?
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My impression that Rangers do not interact with the divine other than peripherally comes from the Ranger description in the PHB as well as the class's overall treatment in popular fiction, and also that is how I would limn the standard rule set in my own lore (actually, the one Ranger in my current game derives her magic from an arcane artifact suffused with magical energy from the Far Realm that was created by an ancient Warlock to provide a defense against extradimensional incursion, but Horizon Walkers are weird). I don't think that your lore / rules adaptation is particularly unbalanced, considering how weak the Ranger class is in 5e (at least without the optional features provided in TCoE). Personally, as a player, I would rather have access to at least some additional Wizard spells as a Ranger instead of being able to choose my spell slots everyday since the Ranger spellbook is pretty underwhelming in general (Pass Without Trace being a notable exception). For example, how awesome would a Gloom Stalker Ranger be that at 5th level got access to Shadow Blade, a spell that except in certain edge cases, Wizards have no business learning, but is dynamite for any martial class with spell slots?
From a balance perspective, this is a buff, because the preparation rules for Rangers would be L/2 + W, where L is Ranger Level and W is wisdom modifier, while their current number of known spells is (L+1)/2 + 1. That means a Ranger with a wisdom modifier of +2 or better has more spells to choose from post-change. With a modifier of +1, the number is equivalent, and with +0 or worse, the Ranger loses spells available. Because the preparation rules free them from changing their known spells only when they level, they can choose to load up with high-level spells, they can also meaningfully change their average spell level known, but this isn't a meaningful buff in any way, since you can't down-cast spells.
But the Ranger spell list is so bad, I don't think there's anything wrong with providing this buff.
I really don't know how anyone can call a spell list that includes Cure Wounds, Goodberry, Hunter's Mark, Fog Cloud, Absorb Elements, Ensnaring Strike, Pass Without Trace, Silence, Spike Growth, Healing Spirit and Lesser Restoration "bad".
The Forum Infestation (TM)
TBH I have rarely even seen cure wounds used if the class has healing word or healing spirit. I would rather pick up healing spirit ASAP and forget cure wounds as a ranger.
Hunters is good but since so many other good spells on their list are concentration it makes it difficult. They suffer like druids with the concentration required spell issue.
I don't disagree with that, though Cure Wounds will still stop people from dying in a pinch before 5th level or when you're out of 2nd level slots or can't drop concentration for Healing Spirit.
The Ranger spell list is good. Better than the Paladin spell list in my opinion (they get far more done through smites and auras and Channel Divinity.) The issue isn't that Rangers have bad spells, it's that they have good spells but only get to bring Hunter's Mark and one other spell starting out. It's unnecessarily restrictive since they don't have all that many spell slots to begin with and any turn they cast an action spell is a turn they're losing a lot of damage.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I allow my ranger player to change 1 spell each long rest. This has not broken anything.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I let all of my casters change their spells after a long rest. It isn't all that big a deal and for those that can only change spells when they level up, can be painful. They could be stuck with a less useful spell for many sessions waiting for a level.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Good idea.
That's why I let them change 1 spell/long rest. I feel this retains the spirit of the rule, that they can't just change their whole array in one go, but allows them to change something each time. So far, it has not been an issue for either the Ranger or the Sorcerer who are using this rule.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
You do not always have to go by the rules in d&d it is about having fun and using your imagination.