This has been coming to the fore more in one of my games recently and I wanted to get some feedback from the more experienced gamers here.
I'm guessing this is something that occurs from time to time to varying degrees. To explicitly spell it out, its when players who often know the rules try to get the DM to give some advantage. Like knowing that you have disadvantage but trying to raise some point about how maybe since you were upside down under the table you should have a normal attack. Or (an in game example) using an item that allows you to shape shift into a winter wolf but still trying to use your barbarian rage, reckless and extra attack while getting to use the breath weapon. Or forgetting to roll advantage and then rolling two die at once, for effectively super advantage, rather than just rolling once more.
I don't know maybe I'm over reacting. I like to play by the rules, I want to feel like I've legitimately accomplished something rather than getting there by playing the ref. Also, it feels like it is putting this constant pressure on the DM to keep saying no, which I don't find very friendly.
Anyway, just curious as to others experience around this?
Knowing the rules and trying to gain an advantage by ignoring them is called "cheating". Common with immature players.
Sometimes it is the result of not being told "No", and the DM simply needs to be clear that they intend to play by the rulebook. Sometimes a player is compensating for insecurity elsewhere in their normal life and wants to feel special.
If it's disruptive to the group, then it's important to address the issue directly. However, if everyone else is having fun, then it might be ok to let it slide.
To address this more subtly, I'd recommend two paths:
1) Encourage the player to run their own one-shots. Let them experience what it's like to be on the other side of the screen. That will give them context for the importance of fair play.
2) Reinforce their value as part of a team. If they are a rogue, give them overt opportunities to be sneaky or stabby, and make it cinematic. By giving them well structured positive reinforcement, it will train them to seek it out. The payoff for acting in character will be much greater than arbitrary rolls.
Target the motivation behind the behavior, and you'll get much better results.
Yeah, this is just cheating, really. Memnosyne has a gentle and reasonable take on it above.
I've had two really illuminating experiences with cheating in games, and they're both basically the same. The board game Cosmic Encounter, and the Unhinged expansion for Magic the Gathering both have a card that basically says, "if you have this card, you're allowed to cheat in this specific way. If anybody catches you, you have to give back your ill-gotten gains, reveal this card, and stop doing it."
These are really fun cards, I think. I had fun playing with and against them both. But you're not *actually* cheating when you use these. You're following the rules on the card, which are a subset of the rules of the game. Still, you get the rush of pulling one over on people, the thrill of trying to avoid detection. It feels subversive.
The thing is, in those games people are aware of the possibility you might be cheating. They're looking out for it. That adds to the challenge, and frankly, without that aspect, I don't think I understand the appeal of cheating. Now not only do you give up the victory of overcoming the odds, but you're also giving up the victory of being more clever than your "opponents," because they're not even playing the game, it's just you. Where's the reward in that?
My best guess is that cheaters just assume everyone *is* looking out. Because surely everyone must also be cheating. It's only natural, or that's how they feel. I'm not sure this is correct, but it kinda makes sense I guess.
I've never come across anyone attempting to cheat or intentionally deceive the DM. I'm sure it happens...but I've never witnessed or participated in it.
I have seen (and done it myself) where people have known the RAW of a situation but wanted to have things work slightly differently so they could do something cool or whatever. There was no intent to receive, only to try and make the game more fun. The DM knew RAW and was told if they weren't aware, and if they showed reticence, they weren't pressured and left to make their own rulings. While we may ask if X can give us advantage, we don't demand it.
I don't think there is any harm in asking, so long as it's not used to pressure and the DM is allowed to make the decision. I've yet to see anyone try to roll extra dice etc. Trying to pressure or deceive the DM is unacceptable behaviour. It's a collaborative game,.and everyone should be open with everyone.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This has been coming to the fore more in one of my games recently and I wanted to get some feedback from the more experienced gamers here.
I'm guessing this is something that occurs from time to time to varying degrees. To explicitly spell it out, its when players who often know the rules try to get the DM to give some advantage. Like knowing that you have disadvantage but trying to raise some point about how maybe since you were upside down under the table you should have a normal attack. Or (an in game example) using an item that allows you to shape shift into a winter wolf but still trying to use your barbarian rage, reckless and extra attack while getting to use the breath weapon. Or forgetting to roll advantage and then rolling two die at once, for effectively super advantage, rather than just rolling once more.
I don't know maybe I'm over reacting. I like to play by the rules, I want to feel like I've legitimately accomplished something rather than getting there by playing the ref. Also, it feels like it is putting this constant pressure on the DM to keep saying no, which I don't find very friendly.
Anyway, just curious as to others experience around this?
You can't 'play the ref'. It's upon the ref to not allow themselves to ever get played. While this is an unfortunate circumstance and I wish I had an easy answer for you, I can offer a very simple one.
DMs need to do all they can to say YES to players. Don't stifle creativity, ingenious and inventive thought and certainly don't push against a player so much that they fear contributing to the table. All that being said, DMs need to make it very clear that though they will always try and say yes, when they say NO, it's not up for discussion. That is the simple part. I'm trying to relate but not sure I am able to. I don't understand how it's even an issue. It's one of the core parts about being a DM. Be fair, consistent, but when necessary, be definitive. When the table gets to that point, DMs don't negotiate, barter, or push back.
DMs are friends, sometimes family, and always part of the group but they are also leaders - or should be, which comes with demonstrating leadership qualities. Telling the players at your table, "yea, that's just not going to happen", is part and parcel to the player on that side of the screen. I though this was understood in relation to the game master role.
The rules are the rules, and ultimately, they ensure that challenges, fights, puzzles, and interactions all play out in a challenging yet enjoyable way for the group. Discarding rules left and right for nonsensical reasons like one person wanting to get a higher bonus on an attack is, simply put, ridiculous. It gets in the way of fun, and completely shatters the illusion of verisimilitude that nearly all DMs seek to keep in their games.
Players like this are trying a relatively subtle but still potentially insidious version of cheating. Though it is not horrible, the Dungeon Master needs to convey the information in the paragraph above to the player, and use the suggestions like giving them an opportunity to DM a one-shot that other users suggested above. if this problematic behavior continues on repeat, then you might have to tell whoever is doing this to leave the game, should this situation not only just happen, but recur and recur after several requests to stop.
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I think last game seemed to have a bit more of it than normal, maybe that's what I'm reacting to. The DM likes to run a pretty heavy homebrew game so modifying rules is generally on the table. Overall its not like its ever anything egregious, its more like a regular occurrence of small asks that I think our DM just gets tired of correcting or saying no to.
I guess I'm also not sure if any of this is a bother to anyone else in the game or if its only because I like to stick closer to the rules. Its a fun game with some otherwise good players, lots of creativity and solid play. I worry making an issue of it will cause strife or bad feelings that might ruin the generally good feels.
I run a game with the kids and they were terrible cheaters to start with.. It’s quite enlightening to see what they try to get away with ( it more of a kids v‘s adults thing I think). But as the games progressed and I called them out on it they watched each other and sorted it out themselves.
The trick is, as with all things, finding the right balance.
You should not simply tolerate everything, but there are also those times when, despite not being clearly RAW, the player is making sense.... without it being game breaking.
Find that point where the creative players are merely bending the rules without breaking them.
It also depends somewhat on the campaign. In a higher stakes campaign, I tend to allow more, simply because it is higher stakes and more super-heroic rather than merely heroic. And this is true whether high or low fantasy. It is just different places it can be allowed to bend in each.
Balance is the key thing, if one player is dominating play (typically the power-Player with some broken but allowed build) and doing everything it’s not much fun for everyone else and they are more likely to mess about. Likewise if a player feels their character is completely weak it’s boring. Address that and you deal with most of the problems.
My current group is interesting in that of the 6 people four of us (including the DM) are experienced DM's
Essentially we have none of that going on. Sometimes there is a discussion about some nuance of an action or spell etc, but we discuss it like and come to an accord.
I personally do not see this group ever having an argument over rules. The the DM players, we all agreed it is his world. But as a DM he does not go whack job crazy on things either
As a DM, what exhausts me is when players invent convoluted combos of ability checks and skill checks to do something for which rules already exist, and they want every advantage and bonus for doing so.
Players are like, “I want to somersault down the stairs, handspring onto the table, backflip over the hobgoblin, make all of my attacks, cast a spell, drink a potion, and dropkick the hobgoblin prone. Here’s my Acrobatics check, Athletics check, Constitution check, History check, Sleight of Hand check, Animal Handling check, and attack rolls. Can I do that?
And I’m like, “You can use one of your attacks to make a shove with advantage.”
Then they act like I sucked all of the fun out of the room.
As a DM, what exhausts me is when players invent convoluted combos of ability checks and skill checks to do something for which rules already exist, and they want every advantage and bonus for doing so.
Players are like, “I want to somersault down the stairs, handspring onto the table, backflip over the hobgoblin, make all of my attacks, cast a spell, drink a potion, and dropkick the hobgoblin prone. Here’s my Acrobatics check, Athletics check, Constitution check, History check, Sleight of Hand check, Animal Handling check, and attack rolls. Can I do that?
And I’m like, “You can use one of your attacks to make a shove with advantage.”
Then they act like I sucked all of the fun out of the room.
The biggest issue there is the question: If they missed any of the rolls, would they have told you? It is normally 'Say what you are doing, then roll,' not the other way around.
I mean, even if the players rolled in front of me when the players said, "Here's my check," no rule allows you to make all of your attacks, cast a spell, drink a potion, and knock a creature prone just because you passed a random combo of ability checks and skill checks.
An Eldritch Knight has to be 18th level before they can cast a spell and make one attack.
A Rogue's Fast Hands won't even allow them make an attack and drink a potion.
I can't allow you to do all of those things because you invented a series of conditions to pass in order to do so.
At best, I can give you a shove with advantage because you cavorted around the room before you attempted to knock the hobgoblin prone, which could be worthy of inspiration (and that's a stretch).
My biggest issue is being in the position where I have to tell you "no" about all of those things in the first place.
It feels like going to the ref at a soccer game and being like, "Hear me out. What if I used my hands like the goalie to carry the ball up the field?," then pouting when the ref says, "You can use your feet to kick the ball up the field."
Knowing the rules and trying to gain an advantage by ignoring them is called "cheating". Common with immature players.Sometimes a player is compensating for insecurity elsewhere in their normal life and wants to feel special.
If it's disruptive to the group, then it's important to address the issue directly. However, if everyone else is having fun, then it might be ok to let it slide.
To address this more subtly, I'd recommend two paths:
2) Reinforce their value as part of a team. If they are a rogue, give them overt opportunities to be sneaky or stabby, and make it cinematic.
Target the motivation behind the behavior, and you'll get much better results.
I've had a player rigorously attempt to cheat - online too - where all the rolls are visible to me. I addressed it to the group that if anyone felt the need to cheat I didn't care, but that I was definitely aware of it and if that's how they needed to play to have fun mine probably wasn't the game for whoever. It did stop.
Generally, I'm pretty lax as a DM and I take notes studiously. Each player gets a "lucky" re-roll 1x per session (just mark it off as I go - and I'll openly state "you get lucky, but you need to RP it well" - I've also found that it's maybe a nice "icebreaker" for new players "just describe it" (if they're totally green to RP) - can give them an impetus.
What I did find for a while was a free slot at my table kept getting a succession of Player #5s that had their heart set on broken homebrew races/classes, that was super-tiresome.
I don't get too much of the wrangling for advantage or anything from my group, but what I do get is them trying to squeeze a little bit more from their turns than normal by narrating something awesome that they want to do. I generally either allow it or I "allow it, but...", because frankly having a bunch of people doing awesome stuff it pretty good for the game and it stokes everyone's creativity. I've had people riding rhinos, swinging on ropes, using a sun-blade to melt metal, and all sorts. In the last 2 sessions.
I try to make sure it keeps the game as balanced as possible. For example, the artificer in my game started the session falling to their death. They wanted to grab the rope, cut the rope, swing around, and then shoot lightning launchers at the bad guy as they did so. I agreed that they could use their first attack to cut the rope, an acrobatics check to grab the rope, and then swing around and use their second attack with the lightning launcher.
Basically, we tend to have a "haggling" system where unconventional stuff still needs to fit into the action/bonus action/movement/reaction window. So in this case, Action to attack, bonus action to grab the rope, movement to swing, and second attack to shoot lightning launchers!
Arm twisting or any other sort of DM challenging happens at a lot of tables. Sometimes a player does make an honest mistake or is misunderstanding the rules, other times, and I think this is what the OP is getting at players will test to see how far they can break the DM. Unfortunately this "testing tendency" is a part of a lot of folks' personalities.
It's best to let the DM handle it or accommodate the quirk as they handle it. I'd only cry foul if the testing players exploit gains the player's character some sort of long term advantage or somehow injures the rest of the party. Otherwise, just let them live the lifestyle of Copperhead as described in one of favorite G.I. Joe file cards, "They got a heart full of gimme and a mouth full o' much obliged."
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I mean, even if the players rolled in front of me when the players said, "Here's my check," no rule allows you to make all of your attacks, cast a spell, drink a potion, and knock a creature prone just because you passed a random combo of ability checks and skill checks.
An Eldritch Knight has to be 18th level before they can cast a spell and make one attack.
A Rogue's Fast Hands won't even allow them make an attack and drink a potion.
I can't allow you to do all of those things because you invented a series of conditions to pass in order to do so.
At best, I can give you a shove with advantage because you cavorted around the room before you attempted to knock the hobgoblin prone, which could be worthy of inspiration (and that's a stretch).
My biggest issue is being in the position where I have to tell you "no" about all of those things in the first place.
It feels like going to the ref at a soccer game and being like, "Hear me out. What if I used my hands like the goalie to carry the ball up the field?," then pouting when the ref says, "You can use your feet to kick the ball up the field."
Yeah, it feels really bad when you have to give your players a flat out NO, even if it is necessary sometimes. The big thing I think you can do to stop this is what I think Kotath may have been trying to say, let your players say what they're trying to do and how they're attempting to improvise, but make sure that you the DM are in charge of telling them whether or not their actions or possible, and what skills to roll with.
For instance, a character shouldn't be able to decide to make an Athletics check to determine body language just because they have a better bonus in that skill than in Insight.
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I get folks trying to game me all the time, even in my rather well established group. Even folks who have been playing for as long as I have.
my response is to listen and make a ruling. I learned how to say No a long time ago, so I rarely have an issue. If they disagree, the disconnect button is right there, or the door is there.
now, that may come across as really cut and dry, lol. My thing is I dislike interrupting the session, so often I will rule it a post session item. Then we talk about it, and I become annoying Toni for some because I use active listening and other skills to ensure I understand their side before I go into mine.
I will offer a work around or other option if I say no the vast majority of the time, or guidelines for them to do so and bring me back choices. My players call this homework.
I really am a huge witch if someone wants to disrupt play, though. Especially if it is an argument around something in a rule book. My policy there is always that the DM is right in that moment, even if she is wrong later, because she ain’t the enemy, she’s the judge, and there is a whole table of people here besides she and thee who ain’t got time for it.
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This has been coming to the fore more in one of my games recently and I wanted to get some feedback from the more experienced gamers here.
I'm guessing this is something that occurs from time to time to varying degrees. To explicitly spell it out, its when players who often know the rules try to get the DM to give some advantage. Like knowing that you have disadvantage but trying to raise some point about how maybe since you were upside down under the table you should have a normal attack. Or (an in game example) using an item that allows you to shape shift into a winter wolf but still trying to use your barbarian rage, reckless and extra attack while getting to use the breath weapon. Or forgetting to roll advantage and then rolling two die at once, for effectively super advantage, rather than just rolling once more.
I don't know maybe I'm over reacting. I like to play by the rules, I want to feel like I've legitimately accomplished something rather than getting there by playing the ref. Also, it feels like it is putting this constant pressure on the DM to keep saying no, which I don't find very friendly.
Anyway, just curious as to others experience around this?
Knowing the rules and trying to gain an advantage by ignoring them is called "cheating". Common with immature players.
Sometimes it is the result of not being told "No", and the DM simply needs to be clear that they intend to play by the rulebook.
Sometimes a player is compensating for insecurity elsewhere in their normal life and wants to feel special.
If it's disruptive to the group, then it's important to address the issue directly. However, if everyone else is having fun, then it might be ok to let it slide.
To address this more subtly, I'd recommend two paths:
1) Encourage the player to run their own one-shots. Let them experience what it's like to be on the other side of the screen. That will give them context for the importance of fair play.
2) Reinforce their value as part of a team. If they are a rogue, give them overt opportunities to be sneaky or stabby, and make it cinematic. By giving them well structured positive reinforcement, it will train them to seek it out. The payoff for acting in character will be much greater than arbitrary rolls.
Target the motivation behind the behavior, and you'll get much better results.
Yeah, this is just cheating, really. Memnosyne has a gentle and reasonable take on it above.
I've had two really illuminating experiences with cheating in games, and they're both basically the same. The board game Cosmic Encounter, and the Unhinged expansion for Magic the Gathering both have a card that basically says, "if you have this card, you're allowed to cheat in this specific way. If anybody catches you, you have to give back your ill-gotten gains, reveal this card, and stop doing it."
These are really fun cards, I think. I had fun playing with and against them both. But you're not *actually* cheating when you use these. You're following the rules on the card, which are a subset of the rules of the game. Still, you get the rush of pulling one over on people, the thrill of trying to avoid detection. It feels subversive.
The thing is, in those games people are aware of the possibility you might be cheating. They're looking out for it. That adds to the challenge, and frankly, without that aspect, I don't think I understand the appeal of cheating. Now not only do you give up the victory of overcoming the odds, but you're also giving up the victory of being more clever than your "opponents," because they're not even playing the game, it's just you. Where's the reward in that?
My best guess is that cheaters just assume everyone *is* looking out. Because surely everyone must also be cheating. It's only natural, or that's how they feel. I'm not sure this is correct, but it kinda makes sense I guess.
I've never come across anyone attempting to cheat or intentionally deceive the DM. I'm sure it happens...but I've never witnessed or participated in it.
I have seen (and done it myself) where people have known the RAW of a situation but wanted to have things work slightly differently so they could do something cool or whatever. There was no intent to receive, only to try and make the game more fun. The DM knew RAW and was told if they weren't aware, and if they showed reticence, they weren't pressured and left to make their own rulings. While we may ask if X can give us advantage, we don't demand it.
I don't think there is any harm in asking, so long as it's not used to pressure and the DM is allowed to make the decision. I've yet to see anyone try to roll extra dice etc. Trying to pressure or deceive the DM is unacceptable behaviour. It's a collaborative game,.and everyone should be open with everyone.
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You can't 'play the ref'. It's upon the ref to not allow themselves to ever get played. While this is an unfortunate circumstance and I wish I had an easy answer for you, I can offer a very simple one.
DMs need to do all they can to say YES to players. Don't stifle creativity, ingenious and inventive thought and certainly don't push against a player so much that they fear contributing to the table. All that being said, DMs need to make it very clear that though they will always try and say yes, when they say NO, it's not up for discussion. That is the simple part. I'm trying to relate but not sure I am able to. I don't understand how it's even an issue. It's one of the core parts about being a DM. Be fair, consistent, but when necessary, be definitive. When the table gets to that point, DMs don't negotiate, barter, or push back.
DMs are friends, sometimes family, and always part of the group but they are also leaders - or should be, which comes with demonstrating leadership qualities. Telling the players at your table, "yea, that's just not going to happen", is part and parcel to the player on that side of the screen. I though this was understood in relation to the game master role.
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I’ve noticed this a few times in games I’ve played in.
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The rules are the rules, and ultimately, they ensure that challenges, fights, puzzles, and interactions all play out in a challenging yet enjoyable way for the group. Discarding rules left and right for nonsensical reasons like one person wanting to get a higher bonus on an attack is, simply put, ridiculous. It gets in the way of fun, and completely shatters the illusion of verisimilitude that nearly all DMs seek to keep in their games.
Players like this are trying a relatively subtle but still potentially insidious version of cheating. Though it is not horrible, the Dungeon Master needs to convey the information in the paragraph above to the player, and use the suggestions like giving them an opportunity to DM a one-shot that other users suggested above. if this problematic behavior continues on repeat, then you might have to tell whoever is doing this to leave the game, should this situation not only just happen, but recur and recur after several requests to stop.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
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Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I think last game seemed to have a bit more of it than normal, maybe that's what I'm reacting to. The DM likes to run a pretty heavy homebrew game so modifying rules is generally on the table. Overall its not like its ever anything egregious, its more like a regular occurrence of small asks that I think our DM just gets tired of correcting or saying no to.
I guess I'm also not sure if any of this is a bother to anyone else in the game or if its only because I like to stick closer to the rules. Its a fun game with some otherwise good players, lots of creativity and solid play. I worry making an issue of it will cause strife or bad feelings that might ruin the generally good feels.
I run a game with the kids and they were terrible cheaters to start with.. It’s quite enlightening to see what they try to get away with ( it more of a kids v‘s adults thing I think). But as the games progressed and I called them out on it they watched each other and sorted it out themselves.
Balance is the key thing, if one player is dominating play (typically the power-Player with some broken but allowed build) and doing everything it’s not much fun for everyone else and they are more likely to mess about. Likewise if a player feels their character is completely weak it’s boring. Address that and you deal with most of the problems.
My current group is interesting in that of the 6 people four of us (including the DM) are experienced DM's
Essentially we have none of that going on. Sometimes there is a discussion about some nuance of an action or spell etc, but we discuss it like and come to an accord.
I personally do not see this group ever having an argument over rules. The the DM players, we all agreed it is his world. But as a DM he does not go whack job crazy on things either
As a DM, what exhausts me is when players invent convoluted combos of ability checks and skill checks to do something for which rules already exist, and they want every advantage and bonus for doing so.
Players are like, “I want to somersault down the stairs, handspring onto the table, backflip over the hobgoblin, make all of my attacks, cast a spell, drink a potion, and dropkick the hobgoblin prone. Here’s my Acrobatics check, Athletics check, Constitution check, History check, Sleight of Hand check, Animal Handling check, and attack rolls. Can I do that?
And I’m like, “You can use one of your attacks to make a shove with advantage.”
Then they act like I sucked all of the fun out of the room.
I mean, even if the players rolled in front of me when the players said, "Here's my check," no rule allows you to make all of your attacks, cast a spell, drink a potion, and knock a creature prone just because you passed a random combo of ability checks and skill checks.
An Eldritch Knight has to be 18th level before they can cast a spell and make one attack.
A Rogue's Fast Hands won't even allow them make an attack and drink a potion.
I can't allow you to do all of those things because you invented a series of conditions to pass in order to do so.
At best, I can give you a shove with advantage because you cavorted around the room before you attempted to knock the hobgoblin prone, which could be worthy of inspiration (and that's a stretch).
My biggest issue is being in the position where I have to tell you "no" about all of those things in the first place.
It feels like going to the ref at a soccer game and being like, "Hear me out. What if I used my hands like the goalie to carry the ball up the field?," then pouting when the ref says, "You can use your feet to kick the ball up the field."
I've had a player rigorously attempt to cheat - online too - where all the rolls are visible to me. I addressed it to the group that if anyone felt the need to cheat I didn't care, but that I was definitely aware of it and if that's how they needed to play to have fun mine probably wasn't the game for whoever. It did stop.
Generally, I'm pretty lax as a DM and I take notes studiously. Each player gets a "lucky" re-roll 1x per session (just mark it off as I go - and I'll openly state "you get lucky, but you need to RP it well" - I've also found that it's maybe a nice "icebreaker" for new players "just describe it" (if they're totally green to RP) - can give them an impetus.
What I did find for a while was a free slot at my table kept getting a succession of Player #5s that had their heart set on broken homebrew races/classes, that was super-tiresome.
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I don't get too much of the wrangling for advantage or anything from my group, but what I do get is them trying to squeeze a little bit more from their turns than normal by narrating something awesome that they want to do. I generally either allow it or I "allow it, but...", because frankly having a bunch of people doing awesome stuff it pretty good for the game and it stokes everyone's creativity. I've had people riding rhinos, swinging on ropes, using a sun-blade to melt metal, and all sorts. In the last 2 sessions.
I try to make sure it keeps the game as balanced as possible. For example, the artificer in my game started the session falling to their death. They wanted to grab the rope, cut the rope, swing around, and then shoot lightning launchers at the bad guy as they did so. I agreed that they could use their first attack to cut the rope, an acrobatics check to grab the rope, and then swing around and use their second attack with the lightning launcher.
Basically, we tend to have a "haggling" system where unconventional stuff still needs to fit into the action/bonus action/movement/reaction window. So in this case, Action to attack, bonus action to grab the rope, movement to swing, and second attack to shoot lightning launchers!
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gaming the dm is a time honored tradition. I do let it happen occasionally, they can baffle me with BS, I will allow it.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Arm twisting or any other sort of DM challenging happens at a lot of tables. Sometimes a player does make an honest mistake or is misunderstanding the rules, other times, and I think this is what the OP is getting at players will test to see how far they can break the DM. Unfortunately this "testing tendency" is a part of a lot of folks' personalities.
It's best to let the DM handle it or accommodate the quirk as they handle it. I'd only cry foul if the testing players exploit gains the player's character some sort of long term advantage or somehow injures the rest of the party. Otherwise, just let them live the lifestyle of Copperhead as described in one of favorite G.I. Joe file cards, "They got a heart full of gimme and a mouth full o' much obliged."
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Yeah, it feels really bad when you have to give your players a flat out NO, even if it is necessary sometimes. The big thing I think you can do to stop this is what I think Kotath may have been trying to say, let your players say what they're trying to do and how they're attempting to improvise, but make sure that you the DM are in charge of telling them whether or not their actions or possible, and what skills to roll with.
For instance, a character shouldn't be able to decide to make an Athletics check to determine body language just because they have a better bonus in that skill than in Insight.
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HERE.I get folks trying to game me all the time, even in my rather well established group. Even folks who have been playing for as long as I have.
my response is to listen and make a ruling. I learned how to say No a long time ago, so I rarely have an issue. If they disagree, the disconnect button is right there, or the door is there.
now, that may come across as really cut and dry, lol. My thing is I dislike interrupting the session, so often I will rule it a post session item. Then we talk about it, and I become annoying Toni for some because I use active listening and other skills to ensure I understand their side before I go into mine.
I will offer a work around or other option if I say no the vast majority of the time, or guidelines for them to do so and bring me back choices. My players call this homework.
I really am a huge witch if someone wants to disrupt play, though. Especially if it is an argument around something in a rule book. My policy there is always that the DM is right in that moment, even if she is wrong later, because she ain’t the enemy, she’s the judge, and there is a whole table of people here besides she and thee who ain’t got time for it.
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