Hello, at the end of one of my campaigns one of my players wish to never be defeated his exact words were "I wish to never be defeated". I was curious of what other people think would happen if someone where to wish that.
As defeat would require conflict, they are permanently transformed in an inanimated object.
Or entrapped in a inescapable and inaccessible pocket dimension for eternity (where they either starve to death or, if they can sustain themselves, probably go mad).
Some form of instant death in it's myriad forms, is of course also very probable.
The only thing that has not been said so far that I can think of is that the character's name is changed, and as such, their name will live on, never to be defeated, and become the stuff of legends. The player character can go on as before. They have not technically been defeated, and they never will be until the day they die, which will be the instant that they try something so foolish as that again.
Lots of "Just screw them over completely" answers here....
I would make them a revenant. They get to have the "come back from any death" card but cannot die for good.
Then as a DM you have to deal with a revenant character. Plus defeat need not equate with death. Just because one does not die does not mean they were not defeated. Otherwise no one ever wins a sporting event.
They defeated the greatest threat to a mortal....death.
Lots of "Just screw them over completely" answers here....
I would make them a revenant. They get to have the "come back from any death" card but cannot die for good.
Then as a DM you have to deal with a revenant character. Plus defeat need not equate with death. Just because one does not die does not mean they were not defeated. Otherwise no one ever wins a sporting event.
They defeated the greatest threat to a mortal....death.
Also see "end of the campaign" note.
Fair enough on the end of the campaign, but then why not simply grant the wish straight up?
As long as that was the last sentence the player character ever uttered, I suppose their Wish is granted, exactly as said. I rather assumed that the player wanted his character to continue adventuring in some way. So I agree. Some form of undead would do the job.
Lots of "Just screw them over completely" answers here....
I would make them a revenant. They get to have the "come back from any death" card but cannot die for good.
Then as a DM you have to deal with a revenant character. Plus defeat need not equate with death. Just because one does not die does not mean they were not defeated. Otherwise no one ever wins a sporting event.
They defeated the greatest threat to a mortal....death.
Also see "end of the campaign" note.
Fair enough on the end of the campaign, but then why not simply grant the wish straight up?
Also a fair point
Actually we could combine these ideas. He utters the wish and the world ends. At the end of the world (and thus the campaign) he remained undefeated.
Bonus point version: He was the soul survivor, immortal and indestructible, yet the only being, indeed the only matter at all, remaining in all of creation.
I made a jokey response before, but in a more serious frame of mind...what constitutes defeat? Is dying being defeated by death? is failing a skill check being defeated by the challenge? Is missing an attack being defeated by armor? Is the emotional pain of losing loved ones being defeated by emotions/loss? Assuming that there was no context for the wish, the ultimate result might be the player character becoming a sociopath and ascending to CE godhood, so that they cannot be defeated by anything, and care for no one, so they can never be defeated by loss in any way.
Of course, this means they are now an NPC, so the player will need to roll a new character to continue playing.
Iif this is the end of the campaign, I'd ask the player, what's the point of that? You don't need to wish the PC will never be defeated because the campaign is over, and he won't be played again. By definition, no PC will ever be defeated in this party.
I feel like we're missing something. Why would a player wish a character who isn't going to be played again would never be defeated, as by definition they never can be... unless you are not retiring the characters and he's going to use the character in another game?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Dying is not being defeated by death but NOT dying would certainly be defeating death....its an odd thought but its how I see that for some reason?
If you wanted to get real crazy with it:
They become an Observer. A being that has existed from the beginning of time that does not interact with the world around it at all. No creature can see/hear/perceive you in any way.
You simply exist to watch time pass and even when the suns burn out and Toril is reduced to ash and rock you are there. When space and time contract to a single point you are there to watch it. When everything resets and the big bang happens again you are still there....watching.
You have always been watching....you have always made the Wish that brings you back to yourself in the Outside watching in at the world.
Or maybe, if you are defeated, the magic of the wish causes your alignment/values to shift to match the person who defeated you, causing you to join their side and therefore you're on the winning, undefeated side. You're cursed to be a perpetual turncoat any time you're defeated, unless someone uses a wish to remove your curse.
You could conceivably work immorality into it too, since basically every other time you're defeated you become an evil NPC anyways, until the party can track you down again and win back their friend, so never dying isn't broken from a gameplay standpoint given the cost. Maybe you do die briefly to solidify he defeat, but you're resurrected (a la Captain Jack) shortly after, albeit with a new alignment/goal.
Dying is not being defeated by death but NOT dying would certainly be defeating death....its an odd thought but its how I see that for some reason?
If you wanted to get real crazy with it:
They become an Observer. A being that has existed from the beginning of time that does not interact with the world around it at all. No creature can see/hear/perceive you in any way.
You simply exist to watch time pass and even when the suns burn out and Toril is reduced to ash and rock you are there. When space and time contract to a single point you are there to watch it. When everything resets and the big bang happens again you are still there....watching.
You have always been watching....you have always made the Wish that brings you back to yourself in the Outside watching in at the world.
Congratulations! your character has transcended existence to become an immortal, invulnerable observer. Your vision shifts, and reality as you knew it dissolves into a different scene, where the world you lived in looks like a crudely drawn map lain on a table, your former friends appearing as painted models. Strange beings sit around the table holding dice, and leafing through books and sheets of paper. One of them, who you once knew for some reason wielded unfathomable power over you previously, addresses you by a strange name..."(players actual name), go sit in the corner and watch the rest of us play."
Because that's basically what you are doing then. (This is not a criticism, i think its awesomely twisted...though I would be joking, and invite them back immediately to roll up a new character)
Dying is not being defeated by death but NOT dying would certainly be defeating death....its an odd thought but its how I see that for some reason?
If you wanted to get real crazy with it:
They become an Observer. A being that has existed from the beginning of time that does not interact with the world around it at all. No creature can see/hear/perceive you in any way.
You simply exist to watch time pass and even when the suns burn out and Toril is reduced to ash and rock you are there. When space and time contract to a single point you are there to watch it. When everything resets and the big bang happens again you are still there....watching.
You have always been watching....you have always made the Wish that brings you back to yourself in the Outside watching in at the world.
Congratulations! your character has transcended existence to become an immortal, invulnerable observer. Your vision shifts, and reality as you knew it dissolves into a different scene, where the world you lived in looks like a crudely drawn map lain on a table, your former friends appearing as painted models. Strange beings sit around the table holding dice, and leafing through books and sheets of paper. One of them, who you once knew for some reason wielded unfathomable power over you previously, addresses you by a strange name..."(players actual name), go sit in the corner and watch the rest of us play."
Because that's basically what you are doing then. (This is not a criticism, i think its awesomely twisted...though I would be joking, and invite them back immediately to roll up a new character)
All other beings start to ignore him. If he tries to attack them, they shift out of the way without looking, as if guided by some unseen hand. He remains undefeated... because he can never get into a fight again.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Another one: he becomes slightly de-synced from time, allowing him to see the world but no longer interact with it. Eventually, he's transformed into a clockroach and spends the rest of eternity scurrying around eating bits of wasted time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Make them the next big bad evil guy, set your next campaign a few years later and there is a being who has forged an empire having never been defeated. The power has corrupted him driving him to seek more and more.
I mean... it could work (they fail against the BBEG) as an object lesson about making irresponsible wishes. But I'm not sure it would be a lot of *fun*.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think we’re overthinking this. There’s a line I remember from Wrede’s Enchanted Forest Chronicles (fantasy/comedy) where a character has a sheath that makes the wearer undefeatable in battle.
”Sounds good,” says the other character. “What’s the catch?”
”Being killed isn’t the same as being defeated.”
Essentially, I’d give the character a hidden ability where, if they’re the last party member standing, they don’t go down when they hit 0 hit points or even die. They keep fighting, like Boromir or Roland (come to think of it, Roland likely inspired Tolkien’s Boromir story), then when the job is done, their heart bursts and they die. If the party starts abusing it it becomes unreliable.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hello, at the end of one of my campaigns one of my players wish to never be defeated his exact words were "I wish to never be defeated". I was curious of what other people think would happen if someone where to wish that.
As defeat would require conflict, they are permanently transformed in an inanimated object.
Or entrapped in a inescapable and inaccessible pocket dimension for eternity (where they either starve to death or, if they can sustain themselves, probably go mad).
Some form of instant death in it's myriad forms, is of course also very probable.
The only thing that has not been said so far that I can think of is that the character's name is changed, and as such, their name will live on, never to be defeated, and become the stuff of legends. The player character can go on as before. They have not technically been defeated, and they never will be until the day they die, which will be the instant that they try something so foolish as that again.
<Insert clever signature here>
If he said it out loud, you could make it so that his feet can never be removed. It will teach them to wish without giving any further context
Lots of "Just screw them over completely" answers here....
I would make them a revenant. They get to have the "come back from any death" card but cannot die for good.
They defeated the greatest threat to a mortal....death.
Also see "end of the campaign" note.
Also a fair point
As long as that was the last sentence the player character ever uttered, I suppose their Wish is granted, exactly as said. I rather assumed that the player wanted his character to continue adventuring in some way. So I agree. Some form of undead would do the job.
<Insert clever signature here>
Beautifully Horrific!
I made a jokey response before, but in a more serious frame of mind...what constitutes defeat? Is dying being defeated by death? is failing a skill check being defeated by the challenge? Is missing an attack being defeated by armor? Is the emotional pain of losing loved ones being defeated by emotions/loss? Assuming that there was no context for the wish, the ultimate result might be the player character becoming a sociopath and ascending to CE godhood, so that they cannot be defeated by anything, and care for no one, so they can never be defeated by loss in any way.
Of course, this means they are now an NPC, so the player will need to roll a new character to continue playing.
Iif this is the end of the campaign, I'd ask the player, what's the point of that? You don't need to wish the PC will never be defeated because the campaign is over, and he won't be played again. By definition, no PC will ever be defeated in this party.
I feel like we're missing something. Why would a player wish a character who isn't going to be played again would never be defeated, as by definition they never can be... unless you are not retiring the characters and he's going to use the character in another game?
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Dying is not being defeated by death but NOT dying would certainly be defeating death....its an odd thought but its how I see that for some reason?
If you wanted to get real crazy with it:
They become an Observer. A being that has existed from the beginning of time that does not interact with the world around it at all. No creature can see/hear/perceive you in any way.
You simply exist to watch time pass and even when the suns burn out and Toril is reduced to ash and rock you are there. When space and time contract to a single point you are there to watch it. When everything resets and the big bang happens again you are still there....watching.
You have always been watching....you have always made the Wish that brings you back to yourself in the Outside watching in at the world.
Or maybe, if you are defeated, the magic of the wish causes your alignment/values to shift to match the person who defeated you, causing you to join their side and therefore you're on the winning, undefeated side. You're cursed to be a perpetual turncoat any time you're defeated, unless someone uses a wish to remove your curse.
You could conceivably work immorality into it too, since basically every other time you're defeated you become an evil NPC anyways, until the party can track you down again and win back their friend, so never dying isn't broken from a gameplay standpoint given the cost. Maybe you do die briefly to solidify he defeat, but you're resurrected (a la Captain Jack) shortly after, albeit with a new alignment/goal.
Congratulations! your character has transcended existence to become an immortal, invulnerable observer. Your vision shifts, and reality as you knew it dissolves into a different scene, where the world you lived in looks like a crudely drawn map lain on a table, your former friends appearing as painted models. Strange beings sit around the table holding dice, and leafing through books and sheets of paper. One of them, who you once knew for some reason wielded unfathomable power over you previously, addresses you by a strange name..."(players actual name), go sit in the corner and watch the rest of us play."
Because that's basically what you are doing then. (This is not a criticism, i think its awesomely twisted...though I would be joking, and invite them back immediately to roll up a new character)
Exactly!
All other beings start to ignore him. If he tries to attack them, they shift out of the way without looking, as if guided by some unseen hand. He remains undefeated... because he can never get into a fight again.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Good idea.
Another one: he becomes slightly de-synced from time, allowing him to see the world but no longer interact with it. Eventually, he's transformed into a clockroach and spends the rest of eternity scurrying around eating bits of wasted time.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Make them the next big bad evil guy, set your next campaign a few years later and there is a being who has forged an empire having never been defeated. The power has corrupted him driving him to seek more and more.
I mean... it could work (they fail against the BBEG) as an object lesson about making irresponsible wishes. But I'm not sure it would be a lot of *fun*.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think we’re overthinking this. There’s a line I remember from Wrede’s Enchanted Forest Chronicles (fantasy/comedy) where a character has a sheath that makes the wearer undefeatable in battle.
”Sounds good,” says the other character. “What’s the catch?”
”Being killed isn’t the same as being defeated.”
Essentially, I’d give the character a hidden ability where, if they’re the last party member standing, they don’t go down when they hit 0 hit points or even die. They keep fighting, like Boromir or Roland (come to think of it, Roland likely inspired Tolkien’s Boromir story), then when the job is done, their heart bursts and they die. If the party starts abusing it it becomes unreliable.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club