Hello all, I am trying to get back into DnD after a period of not playing and have been building a new character roadmap I want to use, but would like to do something that may be OP and wanted to get some thoughts.
I love the Rogue Assassinante ability at level 3, but everything else they do until 17 sucks, would it be too OP for me to build a Rogue Scout, but replace the level 3 abilitiy Skirmisher with that of the Assassin, Assassinate but otherwise everything else is the same.
I think that could be cool, but if I were you I would talk it out with the group I'm playing with before doing so. They may think otherwise, and its best if you have their approval.
There is a reason that "everything else they do until 17 sucks". Class, and their sub-classes, are balanced over the entire course of their level range by giving a less potent than typical feature at some points to off-set any more potent than typical features they get at other points.
Assassinate (and Death Strike) being extremely potent as they are means the character is meant to have their other sub-class features be "ribbons" (a feature that might be pretty and is definitely something extra, but isn't something integral to the function of whatever it is tied onto) so that the Assassin sub-class isn't just plain better than the other options.
So while you totally should talk this change over with your group and see if they mind you doing it, which they might not, it definitely is making the Scout subclass more powerful than it is intended to be.
I don't disagree with the fact that Assassinate and Death Strike are enough to fill the subclass's "combat class feature quota", but I wouldn't go so far as to call Infiltration Expertise and Impostor ribbon abilities. I've had more than one attempt at subterfuge fall apart, so to me Infiltration Expertise and Impostor are really strong. They let you break into places that would normally be inaccessible.
But yes, each subclass has a mix of combat, exploration and social interaction features and you're definitely going to break the class balance if you cherry-pick only one kind of feature.
I don't disagree with the fact that Assassinate and Death Strike are enough to fill the subclass's "combat class feature quota", but I wouldn't go so far as to call Infiltration Expertise and Impostor ribbon abilities. I've had more than one attempt at subterfuge fall apart, so to me Infiltration Expertise and Impostor are really strong. They let you break into places that would normally be inaccessible.
But yes, each subclass has a mix of combat, exploration and social interaction features and you're definitely going to break the class balance if you cherry-pick only one kind of feature.
I only refer to them as ribbons because the usefulness of them relies upon the player realizing the not completely obvious usefulness of them, and the campaign actually involving enough play in the non-combat pillars of the game (which, to my great sadness, a lot of groups just don't do - and thus view abilities that only function in those pillars as "useless").
It depends how often your getting a surprise round. The critical on surprise is only usable if your DM says you can. In the campaign i'm playing in, we have only been able to "surprise" the enemy twice in 2 years. This isn't because we aren't sneaking (cause we are), but its because the DM always says the enemies are always actively searching for ambushes. The assassin subclass has features that, for the most part, are only usable for infiltration on solo ops. Acting with a party its worthless, and can't be considered the damage dealing rogue subclass.
Its too unreliable, and that is why I believe its cool if the group says its cool.
I do also feel that I should clarify, the abilities in Assassin levels beyond 3 until 17 have become entirely overshadowed by new class features, such as what the mastermind can do, and at levels much sooner than an assassin.
I recognize this has already been solved, so no further feedback is needed, but I'd like to chime in my 2cp regarding how I would normally look at this, in case my line of thinking is helpful to anyone else.
1) How much better or worse is the level 3 ability in question, compared to what you'd be replacing?
Skirmisher applies every round, gives bonus movement, but is conditional, and is reliant upon conditions you yourself cannot reliably trigger (an enemy must not just move to within 5' of you, but must "end their turn" there). The amount moved (1/2 your movement) is unlikely to automatically get you to a "safe" distance in and of itself, if you were not safe before. Still, it's not terrible. You ALSO get Survivalist, and I'm assuming that's replaced as well, which is actually the bigger deal. Free proficiency And expertise on two USEFUL skills is nothing to sneeze at. If you are intending to keep survivalist, that's a very different thing than if you're not, of course.
Assassinate is an automatic sneak attack crit on the first attack of combat, usable very reliably if your DM isn't houseruling (see the rules on surprise and combat in chapter 9 for exact details as to how it's Meant to work), which is effectively a bonus amount of d6 equal to your sneak attack. It's the most powerful ability of the bunch. So, significantly more powerful, even if you're replacing both, and MASSIVELY more powerful if you're just replacing skirmisher.
2) How much more or less powerful is the subclass you're putting this into, than what other people are using?
This depends entirely on the group composition. If you're with a Beast Master Ranger, a Pact of the Chain Archfey Warlock, and similar power levelled subclasses, it's a very different conversation than if you're with a hunter ranger and pact of the tome hexblade warlock. I will say that overall, as with certain other subclasses in Xanthar's guide to everything (Hexblade anyone?), it's massively more powerful than the PHB subclasses. An extra sneak attack, Every Turn? That's like the auto-crit, except it's Every Turn, and they can each crit as well! They have better than standard odds, even, due to the Ambush Master feature! +10 ft movement speed on a class that has a bonus action dash is also nothing to sneeze at. Compare it to for example "Thief" and it's absurd.
3) How much unexpected or added synergy does it provide with the other abilities already present?
Well, at 17, BOTH sneak attacks would be auto-crits, so there's that. In addition, the attack against a creature which hasn't gone yet (due to ambush master) on which you would have advantage (due to assassinate) would, upon hitting, in turn provide advantage to *anyone else* attacking that target (due to ambush master). So it massively synergizes with not one but two different abilities, increasing the overall power level of the subclass FAR more than just the strength of the ability alone.
So overall, would I allow this? HELL no. It's outright busted. Especially if it's intending to keep 1/2 the level 3 scout abilities, which it seems like it is. However if you managed to sneak this by your DM, please take Lucky, #1 because you are, and #2 because that will complete the look and ensure you Always hit round 1 targets and blow up everything around you, making this even more ridiculous than it already is. Enjoy it sir if you've got it.
Edit: Also please be a Half Elf (for the bonus two skills for use with "Reliable Talent") and take "Elven Accuracy", which combined with Lucky would let you potentially roll 4 d20s to see if you hit someone on the first round of combat. If at first you don't succeed....
Thanks for your reply, I agree, it can be totally broken, but a few things to know about this build, in the way it will be used.
1) I am building a custom character that will be (at max) an 11 level Rogue, (Trapper, the class as tweaked with my DM's input) 7 Revised Ranger (Gloom Stalker) and 2 Wizard (War Mage).
I level him 1 rogue, 1 wizard, 6 ranger, 2 wizard, the remaining rogue 11, dropping the last level of Ranger in the mix when Wisdom saves become more important.
So I don't even get level 3 rogue until level 10 in the character. Which will give me the following:
Trapper
Lvl 3 Ambush You have Advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. If you can observe a creature or group of creatures for at least one minute, any hit against a surprised creature is a critical hit.
Naturalist You gain proficiency in the Nature and Survival Skills, if you are already proficient you gain expertise.
Swift Strike When you make a ranged or melee attack you can immediately move as part of the attack. When moving in this way, your speed increases by 10ft until the end of that turn and this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
At some point, I will sit down and see about building the class as an Exotic Hunter, level 1-20 and mix all the parts together. Not sure it can even happen, but it is a really good build and has been fun to play, I just hit level 5.
Aaron, if you do multiclassing, you shouldn't be surprised that you lose potential. there is a thing called Too much multiclassing and 5e is penalysing such players because a person shouldn't be 1 level of everything. starting to multiclass into abilities for sake of abilities, i'd say you are reaching a lot and as a DM i wouldn't allow that in my games. even more if you start wanting to mix abilities and not just classes as you do right now.
what we're saying is... if your DM accepts it, then go for it... but to us, the game was designed for players to have 1 or 2 classes together, not 5 !
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Aaron, if you do multiclassing, you shouldn't be surprised that you lose potential. there is a thing called Too much multiclassing and 5e is penalysing such players because a person shouldn't be 1 level of everything. starting to multiclass into abilities for sake of abilities, i'd say you are reaching a lot and as a DM i wouldn't allow that in my games. even more if you start wanting to mix abilities and not just classes as you do right now.
what we're saying is... if your DM accepts it, then go for it... but to us, the game was designed for players to have 1 or 2 classes together, not 5 !
Yeah, I love multiclassing, but I do it for role playing as much as anything. I am no longer playing in that game.
At a young age Ryder encountered a small pack of wolves while exploring the woods near home, but thought little about it and told no one. The following day several of the live stock were found missing. This served to teach him two valuable lessons, one about the consequences of in action and two, the hunt.
He would spend a century in his home land learning the customs of his people. This gave him an insatiable quest for knowledge of the natural world, including the arcane arts. From there he wanted to learn of the dangers of the world so that in action would never endanger his people.
Ryder spent the next 50 years as a sailor, spending time on merchant ships and military vessels. He then reached the coast and enriched himself with the cultures of Nerverwinter. One of his travels brought him to a hunting guild, the Redscar Jackals. Ryder has spent the last 25 years as a Redscar Jackal, a guild of roaming hunters who travel the wilds and from town to town, taking bounties on dangerous creatures, bandits and all manner of troublesome fair. Within this band Ryder, though skilled in survival in the wilds as an herbalist, he really enjoyed the urban aspects of the guild’s activities. He has made contacts far and wide, he has an ear to the ground in every city. This life has given him a lot of friends, and possibly as many enemies. Ryder, as of late has been looking for a change though, and rumors of trouble in a mine has sparked his interest.
during our campaign we have a handful of people come and go, mostly casters, Ryder would always spend travel time discussing magic, hence the arcane cleric level.
Hello all, I am trying to get back into DnD after a period of not playing and have been building a new character roadmap I want to use, but would like to do something that may be OP and wanted to get some thoughts.
I love the Rogue Assassinante ability at level 3, but everything else they do until 17 sucks, would it be too OP for me to build a Rogue Scout, but replace the level 3 abilitiy Skirmisher with that of the Assassin, Assassinate but otherwise everything else is the same.
Thanks
I think that could be cool, but if I were you I would talk it out with the group I'm playing with before doing so. They may think otherwise, and its best if you have their approval.
There is a reason that "everything else they do until 17 sucks". Class, and their sub-classes, are balanced over the entire course of their level range by giving a less potent than typical feature at some points to off-set any more potent than typical features they get at other points.
Assassinate (and Death Strike) being extremely potent as they are means the character is meant to have their other sub-class features be "ribbons" (a feature that might be pretty and is definitely something extra, but isn't something integral to the function of whatever it is tied onto) so that the Assassin sub-class isn't just plain better than the other options.
So while you totally should talk this change over with your group and see if they mind you doing it, which they might not, it definitely is making the Scout subclass more powerful than it is intended to be.
I don't disagree with the fact that Assassinate and Death Strike are enough to fill the subclass's "combat class feature quota", but I wouldn't go so far as to call Infiltration Expertise and Impostor ribbon abilities. I've had more than one attempt at subterfuge fall apart, so to me Infiltration Expertise and Impostor are really strong. They let you break into places that would normally be inaccessible.
But yes, each subclass has a mix of combat, exploration and social interaction features and you're definitely going to break the class balance if you cherry-pick only one kind of feature.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
It depends how often your getting a surprise round. The critical on surprise is only usable if your DM says you can. In the campaign i'm playing in, we have only been able to "surprise" the enemy twice in 2 years. This isn't because we aren't sneaking (cause we are), but its because the DM always says the enemies are always actively searching for ambushes. The assassin subclass has features that, for the most part, are only usable for infiltration on solo ops. Acting with a party its worthless, and can't be considered the damage dealing rogue subclass.
Its too unreliable, and that is why I believe its cool if the group says its cool.
I have it worked out with my DM, thanks for the feedback guys.
I do also feel that I should clarify, the abilities in Assassin levels beyond 3 until 17 have become entirely overshadowed by new class features, such as what the mastermind can do, and at levels much sooner than an assassin.
I recognize this has already been solved, so no further feedback is needed, but I'd like to chime in my 2cp regarding how I would normally look at this, in case my line of thinking is helpful to anyone else.
1) How much better or worse is the level 3 ability in question, compared to what you'd be replacing?
Skirmisher applies every round, gives bonus movement, but is conditional, and is reliant upon conditions you yourself cannot reliably trigger (an enemy must not just move to within 5' of you, but must "end their turn" there). The amount moved (1/2 your movement) is unlikely to automatically get you to a "safe" distance in and of itself, if you were not safe before. Still, it's not terrible. You ALSO get Survivalist, and I'm assuming that's replaced as well, which is actually the bigger deal. Free proficiency And expertise on two USEFUL skills is nothing to sneeze at. If you are intending to keep survivalist, that's a very different thing than if you're not, of course.
Assassinate is an automatic sneak attack crit on the first attack of combat, usable very reliably if your DM isn't houseruling (see the rules on surprise and combat in chapter 9 for exact details as to how it's Meant to work), which is effectively a bonus amount of d6 equal to your sneak attack. It's the most powerful ability of the bunch. So, significantly more powerful, even if you're replacing both, and MASSIVELY more powerful if you're just replacing skirmisher.
2) How much more or less powerful is the subclass you're putting this into, than what other people are using?
This depends entirely on the group composition. If you're with a Beast Master Ranger, a Pact of the Chain Archfey Warlock, and similar power levelled subclasses, it's a very different conversation than if you're with a hunter ranger and pact of the tome hexblade warlock. I will say that overall, as with certain other subclasses in Xanthar's guide to everything (Hexblade anyone?), it's massively more powerful than the PHB subclasses. An extra sneak attack, Every Turn? That's like the auto-crit, except it's Every Turn, and they can each crit as well! They have better than standard odds, even, due to the Ambush Master feature! +10 ft movement speed on a class that has a bonus action dash is also nothing to sneeze at. Compare it to for example "Thief" and it's absurd.
3) How much unexpected or added synergy does it provide with the other abilities already present?
Well, at 17, BOTH sneak attacks would be auto-crits, so there's that. In addition, the attack against a creature which hasn't gone yet (due to ambush master) on which you would have advantage (due to assassinate) would, upon hitting, in turn provide advantage to *anyone else* attacking that target (due to ambush master). So it massively synergizes with not one but two different abilities, increasing the overall power level of the subclass FAR more than just the strength of the ability alone.
So overall, would I allow this? HELL no. It's outright busted. Especially if it's intending to keep 1/2 the level 3 scout abilities, which it seems like it is. However if you managed to sneak this by your DM, please take Lucky, #1 because you are, and #2 because that will complete the look and ensure you Always hit round 1 targets and blow up everything around you, making this even more ridiculous than it already is. Enjoy it sir if you've got it.
Edit: Also please be a Half Elf (for the bonus two skills for use with "Reliable Talent") and take "Elven Accuracy", which combined with Lucky would let you potentially roll 4 d20s to see if you hit someone on the first round of combat. If at first you don't succeed....
Thanks for your reply, I agree, it can be totally broken, but a few things to know about this build, in the way it will be used.
1) I am building a custom character that will be (at max) an 11 level Rogue, (Trapper, the class as tweaked with my DM's input) 7 Revised Ranger (Gloom Stalker) and 2 Wizard (War Mage).
I level him 1 rogue, 1 wizard, 6 ranger, 2 wizard, the remaining rogue 11, dropping the last level of Ranger in the mix when Wisdom saves become more important.
So I don't even get level 3 rogue until level 10 in the character. Which will give me the following:
Trapper
Lvl 3
Ambush
You have Advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet.
If you can observe a creature or group of creatures for at least one minute, any hit against a surprised creature is a critical hit.
Naturalist
You gain proficiency in the Nature and Survival Skills, if you are already proficient you gain expertise.
Swift Strike
When you make a ranged or melee attack you can immediately move as part of the attack. When moving in this way, your speed increases by 10ft until the end of that turn and this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
At some point, I will sit down and see about building the class as an Exotic Hunter, level 1-20 and mix all the parts together. Not sure it can even happen, but it is a really good build and has been fun to play, I just hit level 5.
Aaron, if you do multiclassing, you shouldn't be surprised that you lose potential. there is a thing called Too much multiclassing and 5e is penalysing such players because a person shouldn't be 1 level of everything. starting to multiclass into abilities for sake of abilities, i'd say you are reaching a lot and as a DM i wouldn't allow that in my games. even more if you start wanting to mix abilities and not just classes as you do right now.
what we're saying is... if your DM accepts it, then go for it... but to us, the game was designed for players to have 1 or 2 classes together, not 5 !
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Yeah, I love multiclassing, but I do it for role playing as much as anything. I am no longer playing in that game.
my current game isn’t too different...
http://ddb.ac/characters/3104296/kheaPh
started with rogue, Ranger, then arcane cleric, will be taking Ranger to level 5 and then rogue from there, eventually taking Ranger to 8
My backstory...
At a young age Ryder encountered a small pack of wolves while exploring the woods near home, but thought little about it and told no one. The following day several of the live stock were found missing. This served to teach him two valuable lessons, one about the consequences of in action and two, the hunt.
He would spend a century in his home land learning the customs of his people. This gave him an insatiable quest for knowledge of the natural world, including the arcane arts. From there he wanted to learn of the dangers of the world so that in action would never endanger his people.
Ryder spent the next 50 years as a sailor, spending time on merchant ships and military vessels. He then reached the coast and enriched himself with the cultures of Nerverwinter. One of his travels brought him to a hunting guild, the Redscar Jackals. Ryder has spent the last 25 years as a Redscar Jackal, a guild of roaming hunters who travel the wilds and from town to town, taking bounties on dangerous creatures, bandits and all manner of troublesome fair. Within this band Ryder, though skilled in survival in the wilds as an herbalist, he really enjoyed the urban aspects of the guild’s activities. He has made contacts far and wide, he has an ear to the ground in every city. This life has given him a lot of friends, and possibly as many enemies. Ryder, as of late has been looking for a change though, and rumors of trouble in a mine has sparked his interest.
during our campaign we have a handful of people come and go, mostly casters, Ryder would always spend travel time discussing magic, hence the arcane cleric level.