Looking for feedback and critique on a homebrew wizard tradition I made. The idea was to have a character that's really good at casting cantrips and low level spells, but limited in how much they can cast high-level magic.
Arcane Tradition: The Dabbler
Mnemonic Device
When you select this school at 2nd level, the gold cost for copying spells into your spell book is reduced to zero. The wizard spells you gain per level must each be of a different school.
Horribly Average
When you select this school at 2nd level, you lose any, and may never gain 6th level and above spell slots.
Parlor Tricks
Beginning at 2nd level, your lack of understanding of magic has given you the impression that all magic is the same, turns out, you’re almost right. Choose 3 cantrips from any one classes spell list, you may cast these at will, and they don’t count against your cantrips known. When you level up, instead of adding wizard spells to your spell book, you may instead take this feature again.
Quick Thinking
Starting at 6th level, if you cast a spell of 2nd level or below this round, you may use your bonus action to cast either a cantrip of a different school, or twice per short rest, a spell you have prepared that’s level is less than or equal to half your wizard level rounded down.
Forbidden Knowledge
Starting at 10th level, if you would gain a spell slot of 6th level or above, instead choose two spells of that level or below from any classes spell list. If the spell you choose is below 6th level, add it to your spell book, you may prepare and cast that spell, your spellcasting ability for that spell is intelligence. If the spell you choose is 6th level or above you may cast it without expending a spell slot, but only once, ever. Gain a 6th level spell slot.
Mastering the Basics
Starting at 14th level, gain four 1st level spell slots, and three 2nd level spell slots. You always have 1st level spells prepared, these do not count against the number of spells you can have prepared.
Well, I don't like limiting my favorite spellcaster and I don't know if it's a fair trade. Even still, I have some suggestions. Mnemonic device: Go with "must be from different schools of magic" instead of "must each be of different schools" Parlor Tricks: Make it clear that the gained cantrips count as wizard spells. Quick Thinking: This feature needs to be rewritten. Try the following:
Starting at sixth level, when you cast a spell of 2nd level or lower, you can use your bonus action to cast a cantrip known or a prepared spell, expending a spell slot as usual. The spell's level must be less than or equal to half your wizard level.
Mastering the Basics: All 1st level spells? Every single one in my spellbook? And I get to choose at least 16 more spells to prepare! It feels silly.
A note overall: I think you're crippling the wizard, the only thing that might get me to choose this arcane tradition is if first and second level spells from other classes become wizard spells and, perhaps a few more proficiencies.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
When you select this school at 2nd level, the gold cost for copying spells into your spell book is reduced to zero. The wizard spells you gain per level must each be of a different school.
The first half of this feature makes the "dabbler" better at scribing spells than the [insert school] savant feature makes the school-based traditions at their "this is where I am the best" school. That's a huge mismatch of flavor and mechanical execution - being better than everyone else at their specialty is not "dabbling".
The second half is a little unclear, but it seems like you are saying the 2 spells every wizard gains as part of rising in level each level would have to be chosen from different schools (i.e. you can learn fireball and fly at 5th level because they are different schools, but not fireball and lightning bolt, or fly and haste). That is in-line with the flavor of dabbling, but doesn't match the general mechanical attitude of an arcane tradition - all the other examples of arcane traditions add benefits along a theme, they don't subtract from the base functionality of the class.
Horribly Average When you select this school at 2nd level, you lose any, and may never gain 6th level and above spell slots.
If a character were to multi-class - the only way already in the rules to get to level 20, while being a wizard, and not have 6th-level and higher spells - gets the character 10 levels worth of another class's features in trade. Unless you are going to find a way for this arcane tradition to pack all that variety and potency in despite only have a few levels at which features are gained, this is another feature that just doesn't mesh with the rest of the game.
Plus, the feature is fairly likely to be viewed by any potential player as being a deal-breaker because of how severe not even kind-of having high level spells is (better off multi-classing wizard 10/any other spell-caster 10, because then you don't get any native 6th-9th-level spells, but you get the slots to up-cast your other spells into, and a whole second set of spells to choose from).
Parlor Tricks Beginning at 2nd level, your lack of understanding of magic has given you the impression that all magic is the same, turns out, you’re almost right. Choose 3 cantrips from any one classes spell list, you may cast these at will, and they don’t count against your cantrips known. When you level up, instead of adding wizard spells to your spell book, you may instead take this feature again.
"dabbling" as a theme really shouldn't be mechanically delivered by means of stealing the unique tricks of other classes. And learning 3 cantrips from any one class spell list is both overly limiting since the cantrip lists of classes that have them already have a lot of overlap, and unbalanced because sometimes getting 3 cantrips instead of 2 other spells is a better option, and other times (once you've already gotten all the prime choices covered) it's a completely bum deal which hopefully no player would unwittingly burn themselves by taking.
Quick Thinking Starting at 6th level, if you cast a spell of 2nd level or below this round, you may use your bonus action to cast either a cantrip of a different school, or twice per short rest, a spell you have prepared that’s level is less than or equal to half your wizard level rounded down.
I'm not sure if this feature even functions. If you cast a spell as a bonus action the only other spell you can cast on your turn is a cantrip with a 1 action casting time.
If you are meaning for this feature to circumvent that rule and actually be able to, even if limited to twice per short rest, do what a sorcerer with quicken spell metamagic cannot do (i.e. cast scorching ray and fly in the same turn), then you are again having "dabbling" flavor mismatch with "better than everybody else at their specialty" mechanics.
Forbidden Knowledge Starting at 10th level, if you would gain a spell slot of 6th level or above, instead choose two spells of that level or below from any classes spell list. If the spell you choose is below 6th level, add it to your spell book, you may prepare and cast that spell, your spellcasting ability for that spell is intelligence. If the spell you choose is 6th level or above you may cast it without expending a spell slot, but only once, ever. Gain a 6th level spell slot.
The wording of this feature doesn't make sense as you do not gain a spell slot of 6th level or above at 10th level. And the "Gain a 6th level spell slot." at the end of the feature's text seems to mean that every time the character should be getting a 6th level or higher spell slot (which happens a total of 6 times) they instead get two more 1st-5th level spells in their spell book and a 6th level spell slot, for a grand total of 6 where normally a wizard would only have 2 (but also two 7th, an 8th, and a 9th). That is a strange choice to make over just giving the normal allotment of spell slots, even if you are taking away the ability to actually have any 6th-9th level spells in your spellbook.
Further, this is just a suped-up version of the Bard class' feature magical secrets, which they get because the bard class' "thing" is to be a jack-of-all-trades. Out-doing them in their main shtick is not a good thing. And then we come to the fact that the "cast it once only, ever" is again a terrible deal that hopefully no player ever shackles them self with.
Mastering the Basics Starting at 14th level, gain four 1st level spell slots, and three 2nd level spell slots. You always have 1st level spells prepared, these do not count against the number of spells you can have prepared.
This feature is bonkers.
It sits in the same territory that the spell mastery and signature spells features of the wizard class do (making more low-level magic available to the character), so you've got every 1st level spell prepared, 8 slots to spend on them (which I will just go ahead and mention that 5th edition includes basically all of the magic items that were in the AD&D DMG, except there is a ring missing on purpose - the ring of wizardry that's effect was to double how many of a particular level of spell slot you have available), and one that you don't even have to spend a slot to cast, plus you've got 6 slots to spend on 2nd level spells and one of those you don't have to spend a slot to cast either.
In closing, I will say that the concept of a dabbler - some mage focusing on a variety of magic, rather than on a particular sort or application - is a very tricky one to represent with mechanics because you just can't get away with making them better at any application of magic than a specialist can be, and you can't really give more of something to the class via a sub-class within it than could be gained by spreading levels around multi-classing, since that is the obvious mechanical expression of dabbling in a variety of magics.
Alright, so I changed the features you get drastically. I'm now trying to give a benefit to the player for casting a variety of low level spells, rather than punishing them for casting high level spells, I think this will work much better. My wording and ruling for how these features work might be off, but I hope my intention comes through so that they'll be able to work with some slight adjustments.
Arcane Tradition: The Dabbler
Mnemonic Device
When you select this school at 2nd level, the gold cost for copying spells into your spell book is reduced to zero, the time required is doubled. The wizard spells you gain per level must each be from a different school of magic.
Parlor Tricks
Beginning at 2nd level, your lack of understanding of magic has given you the impression that all magic is the same, turns out, you’re almost right. Choose 2 cantrips from any classes spell list, these count as wizard spells, you may cast these at will, and they don’t count against your cantrips known. When you level up, instead of adding wizard spells to your spell book, you may instead take this feature again.
Cram Session
Starting at 6thlevel, you can change your list of prepared spells of 2nd level or lower during a short rest.
Quick Thinking
Starting at 10th level, when you use a spell slot of 2nd level or lower, you can use your bonus action to cast a cantrip known or, twice per short rest, a prepared spell, expending a spell slot as usual, this spells casting time is changed to a bonus action, the spell's level must be less than or equal to half your wizard level (rounded down).
Mastering the Basics
Starting at 14th level, whenever you use a spell slot of 2nd level or lower, roll a D6. On a 1 or 2 if you cast a spell next turn requiring concentration gain +2 to your constitution saving throws for the duration of that spell. On a 3 or 4 if you cast a spell next turn requiring a saving throw, gain +2 to your Spell DC for one round. On a 5 or 6 if you cast a spell next turn requiring an attack roll, add +2 to your spell attack bonus for one round.
Yeah, I was trying to do a little too much I think. I really liked the idea of high level magic feeling scarce and powerful, so that instead of casting a meteor swarm every day, you'd have your one meteor swarm that'd you have to save for extreme situations. As a result, the tradition I made was too extreme on both ends, and not really in line with what everything else in 5e was doing.
As far as the 10th level feature forbidden knowledge goes, the intention was to give the player an option if they didn't want one use only spells, so they could take two 5th level and below spells from any class, or two 6th level and above spells from any class that they could only use once. The added 6th spell slot was to give the player an immediate benefit at 10th level.
I think this is different than multi-classing, because I'm trying to encourage using different types of spells within the wizard schools of magic. Rather than preparing 10 evocation spells when you know you're going into a fight, I want to encourage people to prepare a variety of low level and useful spells, I hope this comes across in the changes I've made.
Thanks, for the feedback, really opened my eyes to some of the problems with the tradition!
Mnemonic Device When you select this school at 2nd level, the gold cost for copying spells into your spell book is reduced to zero, the time required is doubled. The wizard spells you gain per level must each be from a different school of magic.
The spellbook scribing feature is still better at each specialty's "thing" than they are, since the monetary cost is a more significant limiter than the time cost. Probably better to take a nod from the war magic tradition found in Xanathar's guide and just not have a feature of this sub-class interact with putting spells into your spellbook.
And mandating that spells taken when leveling up must be from a different school of magic is a non-feature - it is both subtractive (removes a thing the wizard class can do), and is irrelevant because even school-based specialists are likely to be spreading out their spells among a few schools (i.e. not even a school of evocation wizard is really going to insist upon picking up 2 evocation spells upon leveling up, as picking their favorite evocation of the currently available level and a spell that does something complete different from the attack-focused evocation school is usually both a strategically superior and "cooler sounding" option).
Parlor Tricks Beginning at 2nd level, your lack of understanding of magic has given you the impression that all magic is the same, turns out, you’re almost right. Choose 2 cantrips from any classes spell list, these count as wizard spells, you may cast these at will, and they don’t count against your cantrips known. When you level up, instead of adding wizard spells to your spell book, you may instead take this feature again.
Changing the number of cantrips doesn't actually address the problems with this feature. Making it a one-time thing, instead of having it be a thing you could do multiple times but hopefully won't because picking "more cantrips" instead of learning spells with a level is a really bad choice - except if you can actually reliably get spells in a form you could copy into your book for free thanks to the other 2nd level feature.
Also, and maybe this is just me, but I don't think "You don't understand magic" is a logical explanation for any feature of any kind of wizard, since the entire concept of the class is to wield power because of understanding - the clueless-as-to-why-but-it-works-anyway shtick is the sorcerer class' thing.
Cram Session Starting at 6th<sup> </sup>level, you can change your list of prepared spells of 2nd level or lower during a short rest.
This feature only functions if the player has chosen their prepared spells poorly... so that's not really a good feature. Plus, focusing all these features on 2nd level or lower spells like you are doing is taking what could be genuinely useful, and forcing it into a very small portion of what the character can actually do.
If the feature were to be able to change up to your intelligence modifier prepared spells once per day when you finish a short rest, it would at least be able to fine-tune overall spell preparation even though you'd still only need to use this feature if you didn't make your best possible choices of which spells to prepare in the first place.
Quick Thinking Starting at 10th level, when you use a spell slot of 2nd level or lower, you can use your bonus action to cast a cantrip known or, twice per short rest, a prepared spell, expending a spell slot as usual, this spells casting time is changed to a bonus action, the spell's level must be less than or equal to half your wizard level (rounded down).
It is still unclear if you are trying to make this feature bypass the standard rules on what you can do when casting a spell as a bonus action, or if you simply don't realize that the feature as-written can't actually function.
You can cast a 1st-level, 2nd-level, or cantrip spell and another cantrip with a 1 action casting time if one of them is cast as a bonus action.
You can't cast a 1st-level or 2nd-level spell and a spell with a level equal to half your wizard level (rounded down) if one of them is cast as a bonus action.
That aside, this is still stealing the sorcerer's unique features (metamagic, specifically quickened spell) and calling it "dabbling".
Mastering the Basics Starting at 14th level, whenever you use a spell slot of 2nd level or lower, roll a D6. On a 1 or 2 if you cast a spell next turn requiring concentration gain +2 to your constitution saving throws for the duration of that spell. On a 3 or 4 if you cast a spell next turn requiring a saving throw, gain +2 to your Spell DC for one round. On a 5 or 6 if you cast a spell next turn requiring an attack roll, add +2 to your spell attack bonus for one round.
First question; If I've "mastered" things, why is the result unpredictable?
Then my only feedback is that this feature doesn't really feel like a mechanical expression of non-specialized study of magic as much as it feels like a grab-bag of specialized study results.
... I'm trying to encourage using different types of spells within the wizard schools of magic. Rather than preparing 10 evocation spells when you know you're going into a fight...
I think that's a misunderstanding of what spell arrangements wizards are actually going to take when they know they're going into a fight. Here's my own wizard character's typical prepared spell list as an example (he's an evocation specialist):
The spellbook scribing feature is still better at each specialty's "thing" than they are, since the monetary cost is a more significant limiter than the time cost. Probably better to take a nod from the war magic tradition found in Xanathar's guide and just not have a feature of this sub-class interact with putting spells into your spellbook.
And mandating that spells taken when leveling up must be from a different school of magic is a non-feature - it is both subtractive (removes a thing the wizard class can do), and is irrelevant because even school-based specialists are likely to be spreading out their spells among a few schools (i.e. not even a school of evocation wizard is really going to insist upon picking up 2 evocation spells upon leveling up, as picking their favorite evocation of the currently available level and a spell that does something complete different from the attack-focused evocation school is usually both a strategically superior and "cooler sounding" option).
You might have a good point, this tradition doesn't have to interact with your spellbook. I honestly didn't even consider that. I think however, that with the time doubled it can be even more of a limiting factor than gold in a lot of campaigns, learning one 5th level spell is going to take you ten hours - that's basically your entire day. The part about having to take magic from different schools is really more of a flavor thing, like you said it's not really too limiting because a lot of players would do that anyway. I think I'll change it though because it could become an annoyance.
Changing the number of cantrips doesn't actually address the problems with this feature. Making it a one-time thing, instead of having it be a thing you could do multiple times but hopefully won't because picking "more cantrips" instead of learning spells with a level is a really bad choice - except if you can actually reliably get spells in a form you could copy into your book for free thanks to the other 2nd level feature.
Also, and maybe this is just me, but I don't think "You don't understand magic" is a logical explanation for any feature of any kind of wizard, since the entire concept of the class is to wield power because of understanding - the clueless-as-to-why-but-it-works-anyway shtick is the sorcerer class' thing.
I actually don't think this feature is a problem at all. "Stealing other classes unique tricks" is just what a dabbler would do? Just because it's a "bad choice" most of the time doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there. I think this would be the tradition that wants all the cantrips it can get. I might make it a one time thing if it ends up being too weak the first time you take it.
This feature only functions if the player has chosen their prepared spells poorly... so that's not really a good feature. Plus, focusing all these features on 2nd level or lower spells like you are doing is taking what could be genuinely useful, and forcing it into a very small portion of what the character can actually do.
If the feature were to be able to change up to your intelligence modifier prepared spells once per day when you finish a short rest, it would at least be able to fine-tune overall spell preparation even though you'd still only need to use this feature if you didn't make your best possible choices of which spells to prepare in the first place.
Originally I had it so that you could just modify your prepared spells on a short rest, but I thought that might be a little too good. I changed it to what it is now because I thought it would fit in theme with what I had. I like the idea of being able to change up to your intelligence modifier a day. I don't know about you, but I don't think I ever make the "best possible choices" of what spells to prepare, I think this might be a nice bonus. I think I'll move this to be the feature you get when taking the tradition, because it feels a little weak to be the 6th level feature.
It is still unclear if you are trying to make this feature bypass the standard rules on what you can do when casting a spell as a bonus action, or if you simply don't realize that the feature as-written can't actually function.
You can cast a 1st-level, 2nd-level, or cantrip spell and another cantrip with a 1 action casting time if one of them is cast as a bonus action.
You can't cast a 1st-level or 2nd-level spell and a spell with a level equal to half your wizard level (rounded down) if one of them is cast as a bonus action.
That aside, this is still stealing the sorcerer's unique features (metamagic, specifically quickened spell) and calling it "dabbling".
Yeah, I'm really unclear on why you can't do the second thing? Is that written explicitly somewhere that I missed? As far as stealing the sorceret's unique features, I don't really see it that way. This feature has major restrictions that the sorcerer doesn't have, the tradition doesn't get access to any metamagic, and it's not like being able to do things that would normally take an action as a bonus action is all that unique.
First question; If I've "mastered" things, why is the result unpredictable?
Then my only feedback is that this feature doesn't really feel like a mechanical expression of non-specialized study of magic as much as it feels like a grab-bag of specialized study results.
So, the intention with this feature was to mechanically incentivize players to cast different "types" of spells in the same combat. Make them feel like a generalist who's using all the different types of magic they can get their hands on. The reason for the dice rolling was to keep the player from consistently using the same 3 spells to keep the "chain" going. I might buff this a bit so people won't treat is as something you sometimes get, but rather something you should be actively trying to get.
Thanks again for the feedback! Overall I think I might have to seperate this into two tradtions, because what I have doesn't really mesh together. I like the idea of encouraging players to cast a variety of different types of spells in the same combat, and I like the idea of encouraging players to use more low-level spells, but after trying, I don't think they belong together.
I think however, that with the time doubled it can be even more of a limiting factor than gold in a lot of campaigns...
Unless it is a significant limit in every, or at least most, campaigns it is not a significant enough limit to use as a balancing factor. And the fact is that a player can find the extra time for their character just by trying to take the time (the DM can then choose to interrupt), but a player can't just have more money without effort taken to go get it, so gold cost is more functional as a limiting factor than time taken is.
"Stealing other classes unique tricks" is just what a dabbler would do?
If they truly dabble in different classes, by multi-classing, then absolutely. But just "dabbling" by having a sub-class that cherry-picks desirable features from other classes doesn't make much sense - take the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster as examples. Both add a bit of wizardry to their respective classes, and even have unique expressions of blending those features together, but they don't get any of the wizard class' unique or special features (specifically, they don't have spellbooks, arcane recovery, or even anything like those features or the higher-level features the class eventually picks up).
Just because it's a "bad choice" most of the time doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there.
It doesn't mean that, no. But it does mean that the option shouldn't be treated as being "good". More cantrips as a feature is not that bad, but it also isn't really that good, it's a ribbon more than it is a real feature, because a character just isn't going to end up actually relying on all of those cantrips - they already get enough standard, so all the extra ones are at heavy risk of being in "Yeah, I've got it... but I basically never use it" territory which is functionally identical to not having the extras in the first place.
I don't know about you, but I don't think I ever make the "best possible choices" of what spells to prepare
I didn't say "the best", I said "your best". There is a significant difference between the two - namely that what I actually said was that having the opportunity to change what spells you have prepared isn't all that likely to actually help because you presumably already put in your best effort at picking your spells, so you probably aren't going to improve things by changing your spells while second-guessing yourself.
Yeah, I'm really unclear on why you can't do the second thing? Is that written explicitly somewhere that I missed?
Here you go. Specifically under the Bonus Action subheading.
So, the intention with this feature was to mechanically incentivize players to cast different "types" of spells in the same combat.
No additional incentive is needed beyond having numerous enough combats with varying qualities to them like terrain, goals of the party and opposition, sorts of opposition, and the like. Look at the example list of prepared spells I posted earlier and think about which ones a player is likely to use all within the same combat - it looks a lot more like misty step, prismatic spray, mirror image, and some fire bolts than using only one type of spells.
I think this class might be happier if you moved it over to the sorcerer tree.
Consider: Wizards already have the most spells of any of the 3 casters. Sacrificing their higher level spells like meteor swarm for something like Chromatic orb is generally going to be a poor swap. Even in a world where wizards swap 6-9th level spell slots for ALL the cantrips and ALL the Level 1 spells, i'm not exactly sure it's a fair/enticing trade. You'll be OP in low level campaigns (since this drawback will never hurt you) and you'll be severely limited in high level campaigns.
Sorcerers, though? Sorcerers would be able to able to use those empty spell slots for extra metamagic points, drastically increasing their versatility... also, you can't be accused of stealing quickened spell, if you stay inside the class.
Thematically, sorcerers are dabblers by nature. They don't spend a ton of time studying magical theory in a tower, they learn magic based on intention... they aren't necessarily limited by some of the preconceptions that a Wizard might have. I can totally see how a sorcerer might become jaded and think that "divine magic," "nature magic," and "the arcane" are all fundamentally the same thing--expressions of power and will.
Placed into the sorcerer tree, this would really feel like an intentional doubling down on meta-magic, trading power for utility, and I think a lot of the issues discussed above would simply vanish... although you might want to figure out a way to either "metamagic" back in a pinch meteor swarm (at a severe cost, like all your meta points), or else figure out a way to really underscore the utility of the dabbler beyond simple variety of spells. Perhaps something like this:
Mastering the basics:
At level 14, you gain the ability to cast level 1 spells at will, as if they were cantrips. Spells of any level that can be up-cast, can be treated as if they were cast with the spell slot equivalent of two slots higher.
@aaronofbarbaria -- I think you might be obsessing a little bit over the "dabbler" thing. What you are thinking of in 5e is called a bard. A Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none full caster who knows a few EXTREMELY SPECIALIZED tricks (like smite). I can guarantee you right now that this class will not surpass any other school, while they are limited to 5th level and below spells (and heavily focused on 1st level spells and cantrips). Quantity vs Quality.
@aaronofbarbaria -- I think you might be obsessing a little bit over the "dabbler" thing. What you are thinking of in 5e is called a bard. A Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none full caster who knows a few tricks. I feel like most of your criticisms boil down to "this homebrew WIZARD class isn't bardy enough" Its very strange.
You've got that full on backwards. Most of my criticism boil down to "this homebrew WIZARD class is taking too many things from other classes" or to phrase that differently, it's too bardy (and/or too sorcerer-y, but either way, definitely not all that wizard-y and not fitting with the stated theme - since it's the creator, not me, chose to use "dabbler").
... either way, definitely not all that wizard-y and not fitting with the stated theme - since it's the creator, not me, chose to use "dabbler").
Okay, but again... look at the Samurai UA and tell me how thematic it is... The "dabbler theme" might not be the best title for it... You might call it the "Trump U" school of wizardry or something else (since they are apparently incapable of grasping complex ideas *ZING!), but dabbler gets the point across. Ultimately, what you call it is irrelevant.
You've got that full on backwards. Most of my criticism boil down to "this homebrew WIZARD class is taking too many things from other classes" or to phrase that differently, it's too bardy...
Well, in that case I disagree. The bard is very much a better bard (by miles), and the sorcerer is very much a better sorcerer (again, by miles), and the evocation wizard is very clearly a better evocation wizard (and likely a better generalist too).
I don't think you believe that as strongly as you thing you do. As an example, look at the school of evocation tradition. Now imagine that it gave all the features it gives, but was called "school of healing." What a game element like a subclass is called matters because that is what sets the expectations of what it is meant to do.
The bard is very much a better bard (by miles), and the sorcerer is very much a better sorcerer (again, by miles), and the evocation wizard is very clearly a better evocation wizard (and likely a better generalist too).
This subclass doesn't have to make the wizard a better bard in order for it to be "too bardy", it just needs to be clearly trying to be more like a bard than like a wizard. Same with sorcerer, but even sharper of a turn from being "wizardy" to "sorcerer-y" because there are less things that differentiate the two than there are things which differentiate bards and wizards.
And I would think that the evocation specialized school being "likely a better generalist too" would count as agreement with me that the sub-class that claims to be trying to bet better at a wider variety of mage (read: is focused on being generalist in approach to magic) isn't accomplishing that goal with the features presented in this thread.
a wider variety of mage (read: is focused on being generalist in approach to magic)
All wizards are generalists. That is what the class is. They have more spells prepared than any other class. They aren't able to hit as hard as sorcerers, nor can they output even half as many fireballs in a campaign compared with a warlock, but they are more versatile. By nature. Sacking high level spells for low level ones is a type of specialization. Simply put, "the dabbler" is not about building a better generalist, it is about specializing in all forms of low-level magic. 0.02
This subclass doesn't have to make the wizard a better bard in order for it to be "too bardy", it just needs to be clearly trying to be more like a bard than like a wizard.
The only thing that I see that is "bard" like, is the ability to snag cantrips and level 1 spells from other classes. The only thing that I see that is "sorcerer-isty" is the ability to cast 2 non-cantrip spells in a single action economy. Honestly I don't see either of those things as "sacred cows" and have no problem with another class having them, so long as 1) the original class still does it better, and 2) they sacrifice something else to get them.
As an example, look at the school of evocation tradition. Now imagine that it gave all the features it gives, but was called "school of healing."
Looking for feedback and critique on a homebrew wizard tradition I made. The idea was to have a character that's really good at casting cantrips and low level spells, but limited in how much they can cast high-level magic.
Arcane Tradition: The Dabbler
Mnemonic Device
When you select this school at 2nd level, the gold cost for copying spells into your spell book is reduced to zero. The wizard spells you gain per level must each be of a different school.
Horribly Average
When you select this school at 2nd level, you lose any, and may never gain 6th level and above spell slots.
Parlor Tricks
Beginning at 2nd level, your lack of understanding of magic has given you the impression that all magic is the same, turns out, you’re almost right. Choose 3 cantrips from any one classes spell list, you may cast these at will, and they don’t count against your cantrips known. When you level up, instead of adding wizard spells to your spell book, you may instead take this feature again.
Quick Thinking
Starting at 6th level, if you cast a spell of 2nd level or below this round, you may use your bonus action to cast either a cantrip of a different school, or twice per short rest, a spell you have prepared that’s level is less than or equal to half your wizard level rounded down.
Forbidden Knowledge
Starting at 10th level, if you would gain a spell slot of 6th level or above, instead choose two spells of that level or below from any classes spell list. If the spell you choose is below 6th level, add it to your spell book, you may prepare and cast that spell, your spellcasting ability for that spell is intelligence. If the spell you choose is 6th level or above you may cast it without expending a spell slot, but only once, ever. Gain a 6th level spell slot.
Mastering the Basics
Starting at 14th level, gain four 1st level spell slots, and three 2nd level spell slots. You always have 1st level spells prepared, these do not count against the number of spells you can have prepared.
Well, I don't like limiting my favorite spellcaster and I don't know if it's a fair trade. Even still, I have some suggestions. Mnemonic device: Go with "must be from different schools of magic" instead of "must each be of different schools" Parlor Tricks: Make it clear that the gained cantrips count as wizard spells. Quick Thinking: This feature needs to be rewritten. Try the following:
Mastering the Basics: All 1st level spells? Every single one in my spellbook? And I get to choose at least 16 more spells to prepare! It feels silly.
A note overall: I think you're crippling the wizard, the only thing that might get me to choose this arcane tradition is if first and second level spells from other classes become wizard spells and, perhaps a few more proficiencies.
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Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
The first half of this feature makes the "dabbler" better at scribing spells than the [insert school] savant feature makes the school-based traditions at their "this is where I am the best" school. That's a huge mismatch of flavor and mechanical execution - being better than everyone else at their specialty is not "dabbling".
The second half is a little unclear, but it seems like you are saying the 2 spells every wizard gains as part of rising in level each level would have to be chosen from different schools (i.e. you can learn fireball and fly at 5th level because they are different schools, but not fireball and lightning bolt, or fly and haste). That is in-line with the flavor of dabbling, but doesn't match the general mechanical attitude of an arcane tradition - all the other examples of arcane traditions add benefits along a theme, they don't subtract from the base functionality of the class.
If a character were to multi-class - the only way already in the rules to get to level 20, while being a wizard, and not have 6th-level and higher spells - gets the character 10 levels worth of another class's features in trade. Unless you are going to find a way for this arcane tradition to pack all that variety and potency in despite only have a few levels at which features are gained, this is another feature that just doesn't mesh with the rest of the game.Plus, the feature is fairly likely to be viewed by any potential player as being a deal-breaker because of how severe not even kind-of having high level spells is (better off multi-classing wizard 10/any other spell-caster 10, because then you don't get any native 6th-9th-level spells, but you get the slots to up-cast your other spells into, and a whole second set of spells to choose from).
"dabbling" as a theme really shouldn't be mechanically delivered by means of stealing the unique tricks of other classes. And learning 3 cantrips from any one class spell list is both overly limiting since the cantrip lists of classes that have them already have a lot of overlap, and unbalanced because sometimes getting 3 cantrips instead of 2 other spells is a better option, and other times (once you've already gotten all the prime choices covered) it's a completely bum deal which hopefully no player would unwittingly burn themselves by taking.
I'm not sure if this feature even functions. If you cast a spell as a bonus action the only other spell you can cast on your turn is a cantrip with a 1 action casting time.If you are meaning for this feature to circumvent that rule and actually be able to, even if limited to twice per short rest, do what a sorcerer with quicken spell metamagic cannot do (i.e. cast scorching ray and fly in the same turn), then you are again having "dabbling" flavor mismatch with "better than everybody else at their specialty" mechanics.
The wording of this feature doesn't make sense as you do not gain a spell slot of 6th level or above at 10th level. And the "Gain a 6th level spell slot." at the end of the feature's text seems to mean that every time the character should be getting a 6th level or higher spell slot (which happens a total of 6 times) they instead get two more 1st-5th level spells in their spell book and a 6th level spell slot, for a grand total of 6 where normally a wizard would only have 2 (but also two 7th, an 8th, and a 9th). That is a strange choice to make over just giving the normal allotment of spell slots, even if you are taking away the ability to actually have any 6th-9th level spells in your spellbook.Further, this is just a suped-up version of the Bard class' feature magical secrets, which they get because the bard class' "thing" is to be a jack-of-all-trades. Out-doing them in their main shtick is not a good thing. And then we come to the fact that the "cast it once only, ever" is again a terrible deal that hopefully no player ever shackles them self with.
This feature is bonkers.It sits in the same territory that the spell mastery and signature spells features of the wizard class do (making more low-level magic available to the character), so you've got every 1st level spell prepared, 8 slots to spend on them (which I will just go ahead and mention that 5th edition includes basically all of the magic items that were in the AD&D DMG, except there is a ring missing on purpose - the ring of wizardry that's effect was to double how many of a particular level of spell slot you have available), and one that you don't even have to spend a slot to cast, plus you've got 6 slots to spend on 2nd level spells and one of those you don't have to spend a slot to cast either.
In closing, I will say that the concept of a dabbler - some mage focusing on a variety of magic, rather than on a particular sort or application - is a very tricky one to represent with mechanics because you just can't get away with making them better at any application of magic than a specialist can be, and you can't really give more of something to the class via a sub-class within it than could be gained by spreading levels around multi-classing, since that is the obvious mechanical expression of dabbling in a variety of magics.
Alright, so I changed the features you get drastically. I'm now trying to give a benefit to the player for casting a variety of low level spells, rather than punishing them for casting high level spells, I think this will work much better. My wording and ruling for how these features work might be off, but I hope my intention comes through so that they'll be able to work with some slight adjustments.
Arcane Tradition: The Dabbler
Mnemonic Device
When you select this school at 2nd level, the gold cost for copying spells into your spell book is reduced to zero, the time required is doubled. The wizard spells you gain per level must each be from a different school of magic.
Parlor Tricks
Beginning at 2nd level, your lack of understanding of magic has given you the impression that all magic is the same, turns out, you’re almost right. Choose 2 cantrips from any classes spell list, these count as wizard spells, you may cast these at will, and they don’t count against your cantrips known. When you level up, instead of adding wizard spells to your spell book, you may instead take this feature again.
Cram Session
Starting at 6thlevel, you can change your list of prepared spells of 2nd level or lower during a short rest.
Quick Thinking
Starting at 10th level, when you use a spell slot of 2nd level or lower, you can use your bonus action to cast a cantrip known or, twice per short rest, a prepared spell, expending a spell slot as usual, this spells casting time is changed to a bonus action, the spell's level must be less than or equal to half your wizard level (rounded down).
Mastering the Basics
Starting at 14th level, whenever you use a spell slot of 2nd level or lower, roll a D6. On a 1 or 2 if you cast a spell next turn requiring concentration gain +2 to your constitution saving throws for the duration of that spell. On a 3 or 4 if you cast a spell next turn requiring a saving throw, gain +2 to your Spell DC for one round. On a 5 or 6 if you cast a spell next turn requiring an attack roll, add +2 to your spell attack bonus for one round.
Yeah, I was trying to do a little too much I think. I really liked the idea of high level magic feeling scarce and powerful, so that instead of casting a meteor swarm every day, you'd have your one meteor swarm that'd you have to save for extreme situations. As a result, the tradition I made was too extreme on both ends, and not really in line with what everything else in 5e was doing.
As far as the 10th level feature forbidden knowledge goes, the intention was to give the player an option if they didn't want one use only spells, so they could take two 5th level and below spells from any class, or two 6th level and above spells from any class that they could only use once. The added 6th spell slot was to give the player an immediate benefit at 10th level.
I think this is different than multi-classing, because I'm trying to encourage using different types of spells within the wizard schools of magic. Rather than preparing 10 evocation spells when you know you're going into a fight, I want to encourage people to prepare a variety of low level and useful spells, I hope this comes across in the changes I've made.
Thanks, for the feedback, really opened my eyes to some of the problems with the tradition!
The spellbook scribing feature is still better at each specialty's "thing" than they are, since the monetary cost is a more significant limiter than the time cost. Probably better to take a nod from the war magic tradition found in Xanathar's guide and just not have a feature of this sub-class interact with putting spells into your spellbook.
And mandating that spells taken when leveling up must be from a different school of magic is a non-feature - it is both subtractive (removes a thing the wizard class can do), and is irrelevant because even school-based specialists are likely to be spreading out their spells among a few schools (i.e. not even a school of evocation wizard is really going to insist upon picking up 2 evocation spells upon leveling up, as picking their favorite evocation of the currently available level and a spell that does something complete different from the attack-focused evocation school is usually both a strategically superior and "cooler sounding" option).
Changing the number of cantrips doesn't actually address the problems with this feature. Making it a one-time thing, instead of having it be a thing you could do multiple times but hopefully won't because picking "more cantrips" instead of learning spells with a level is a really bad choice - except if you can actually reliably get spells in a form you could copy into your book for free thanks to the other 2nd level feature.Also, and maybe this is just me, but I don't think "You don't understand magic" is a logical explanation for any feature of any kind of wizard, since the entire concept of the class is to wield power because of understanding - the clueless-as-to-why-but-it-works-anyway shtick is the sorcerer class' thing.
This feature only functions if the player has chosen their prepared spells poorly... so that's not really a good feature. Plus, focusing all these features on 2nd level or lower spells like you are doing is taking what could be genuinely useful, and forcing it into a very small portion of what the character can actually do.If the feature were to be able to change up to your intelligence modifier prepared spells once per day when you finish a short rest, it would at least be able to fine-tune overall spell preparation even though you'd still only need to use this feature if you didn't make your best possible choices of which spells to prepare in the first place.
It is still unclear if you are trying to make this feature bypass the standard rules on what you can do when casting a spell as a bonus action, or if you simply don't realize that the feature as-written can't actually function.You can cast a 1st-level, 2nd-level, or cantrip spell and another cantrip with a 1 action casting time if one of them is cast as a bonus action.
You can't cast a 1st-level or 2nd-level spell and a spell with a level equal to half your wizard level (rounded down) if one of them is cast as a bonus action.
That aside, this is still stealing the sorcerer's unique features (metamagic, specifically quickened spell) and calling it "dabbling".
First question; If I've "mastered" things, why is the result unpredictable?Then my only feedback is that this feature doesn't really feel like a mechanical expression of non-specialized study of magic as much as it feels like a grab-bag of specialized study results.
I think that's a misunderstanding of what spell arrangements wizards are actually going to take when they know they're going into a fight. Here's my own wizard character's typical prepared spell list as an example (he's an evocation specialist):Cantrips: fire bolt, friends, light, mage hand, shocking grasp
1st: Feather fall, shield
2nd: Misty step, mirror image, rope trick
3rd: Counterspell, lightning bolt
4th: Arcane eye, greater invisibility, polymorph
5th: Bigby's hand, Rary's telepathic bond, teleportation circle
6th: Chain lightning, disintigrate, true seeing
7th: Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, prismatic spray
That's only a total of 4 evocation spells, not counting the 2 evocation cantrips known.
You might have a good point, this tradition doesn't have to interact with your spellbook. I honestly didn't even consider that. I think however, that with the time doubled it can be even more of a limiting factor than gold in a lot of campaigns, learning one 5th level spell is going to take you ten hours - that's basically your entire day. The part about having to take magic from different schools is really more of a flavor thing, like you said it's not really too limiting because a lot of players would do that anyway. I think I'll change it though because it could become an annoyance.
I actually don't think this feature is a problem at all. "Stealing other classes unique tricks" is just what a dabbler would do? Just because it's a "bad choice" most of the time doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there. I think this would be the tradition that wants all the cantrips it can get. I might make it a one time thing if it ends up being too weak the first time you take it.
Originally I had it so that you could just modify your prepared spells on a short rest, but I thought that might be a little too good. I changed it to what it is now because I thought it would fit in theme with what I had. I like the idea of being able to change up to your intelligence modifier a day. I don't know about you, but I don't think I ever make the "best possible choices" of what spells to prepare, I think this might be a nice bonus. I think I'll move this to be the feature you get when taking the tradition, because it feels a little weak to be the 6th level feature.
Yeah, I'm really unclear on why you can't do the second thing? Is that written explicitly somewhere that I missed? As far as stealing the sorceret's unique features, I don't really see it that way. This feature has major restrictions that the sorcerer doesn't have, the tradition doesn't get access to any metamagic, and it's not like being able to do things that would normally take an action as a bonus action is all that unique.
So, the intention with this feature was to mechanically incentivize players to cast different "types" of spells in the same combat. Make them feel like a generalist who's using all the different types of magic they can get their hands on. The reason for the dice rolling was to keep the player from consistently using the same 3 spells to keep the "chain" going. I might buff this a bit so people won't treat is as something you sometimes get, but rather something you should be actively trying to get.
Thanks again for the feedback! Overall I think I might have to seperate this into two tradtions, because what I have doesn't really mesh together. I like the idea of encouraging players to cast a variety of different types of spells in the same combat, and I like the idea of encouraging players to use more low-level spells, but after trying, I don't think they belong together.
Unless it is a significant limit in every, or at least most, campaigns it is not a significant enough limit to use as a balancing factor. And the fact is that a player can find the extra time for their character just by trying to take the time (the DM can then choose to interrupt), but a player can't just have more money without effort taken to go get it, so gold cost is more functional as a limiting factor than time taken is.
If they truly dabble in different classes, by multi-classing, then absolutely. But just "dabbling" by having a sub-class that cherry-picks desirable features from other classes doesn't make much sense - take the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster as examples. Both add a bit of wizardry to their respective classes, and even have unique expressions of blending those features together, but they don't get any of the wizard class' unique or special features (specifically, they don't have spellbooks, arcane recovery, or even anything like those features or the higher-level features the class eventually picks up).
It doesn't mean that, no. But it does mean that the option shouldn't be treated as being "good". More cantrips as a feature is not that bad, but it also isn't really that good, it's a ribbon more than it is a real feature, because a character just isn't going to end up actually relying on all of those cantrips - they already get enough standard, so all the extra ones are at heavy risk of being in "Yeah, I've got it... but I basically never use it" territory which is functionally identical to not having the extras in the first place.
I didn't say "the best", I said "your best". There is a significant difference between the two - namely that what I actually said was that having the opportunity to change what spells you have prepared isn't all that likely to actually help because you presumably already put in your best effort at picking your spells, so you probably aren't going to improve things by changing your spells while second-guessing yourself.
Here you go. Specifically under the Bonus Action subheading.
No additional incentive is needed beyond having numerous enough combats with varying qualities to them like terrain, goals of the party and opposition, sorts of opposition, and the like. Look at the example list of prepared spells I posted earlier and think about which ones a player is likely to use all within the same combat - it looks a lot more like misty step, prismatic spray, mirror image, and some fire bolts than using only one type of spells.I think this class might be happier if you moved it over to the sorcerer tree.
Consider: Wizards already have the most spells of any of the 3 casters. Sacrificing their higher level spells like meteor swarm for something like Chromatic orb is generally going to be a poor swap. Even in a world where wizards swap 6-9th level spell slots for ALL the cantrips and ALL the Level 1 spells, i'm not exactly sure it's a fair/enticing trade. You'll be OP in low level campaigns (since this drawback will never hurt you) and you'll be severely limited in high level campaigns.
Sorcerers, though? Sorcerers would be able to able to use those empty spell slots for extra metamagic points, drastically increasing their versatility... also, you can't be accused of stealing quickened spell, if you stay inside the class.
Thematically, sorcerers are dabblers by nature. They don't spend a ton of time studying magical theory in a tower, they learn magic based on intention... they aren't necessarily limited by some of the preconceptions that a Wizard might have. I can totally see how a sorcerer might become jaded and think that "divine magic," "nature magic," and "the arcane" are all fundamentally the same thing--expressions of power and will.
Placed into the sorcerer tree, this would really feel like an intentional doubling down on meta-magic, trading power for utility, and I think a lot of the issues discussed above would simply vanish... although you might want to figure out a way to either "metamagic" back in a pinch meteor swarm (at a severe cost, like all your meta points), or else figure out a way to really underscore the utility of the dabbler beyond simple variety of spells. Perhaps something like this:
@aaronofbarbaria -- I think you might be obsessing a little bit over the "dabbler" thing. What you are thinking of in 5e is called a bard. A Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none full caster who knows a few EXTREMELY SPECIALIZED tricks (like smite). I can guarantee you right now that this class will not surpass any other school, while they are limited to 5th level and below spells (and heavily focused on 1st level spells and cantrips). Quantity vs Quality.
Okay, but again... look at the Samurai UA and tell me how thematic it is... The "dabbler theme" might not be the best title for it... You might call it the "Trump U" school of wizardry or something else (since they are apparently incapable of grasping complex ideas *ZING!), but dabbler gets the point across. Ultimately, what you call it is irrelevant.
Well, in that case I disagree. The bard is very much a better bard (by miles), and the sorcerer is very much a better sorcerer (again, by miles), and the evocation wizard is very clearly a better evocation wizard (and likely a better generalist too).
All wizards are generalists. That is what the class is. They have more spells prepared than any other class. They aren't able to hit as hard as sorcerers, nor can they output even half as many fireballs in a campaign compared with a warlock, but they are more versatile. By nature. Sacking high level spells for low level ones is a type of specialization. Simply put, "the dabbler" is not about building a better generalist, it is about specializing in all forms of low-level magic. 0.02
The only thing that I see that is "bard" like, is the ability to snag cantrips and level 1 spells from other classes. The only thing that I see that is "sorcerer-isty" is the ability to cast 2 non-cantrip spells in a single action economy. Honestly I don't see either of those things as "sacred cows" and have no problem with another class having them, so long as 1) the original class still does it better, and 2) they sacrifice something else to get them.
Go ahead. Play dumb.
Suits me just fine.