Rogue isnt super beneficial. Most of the bonus actions you get from Cunning Action like Disengage or Dodge are already covered by the Step of the Wind ki feature. RAW, you cannot sneak attack using unarmed attacks, so unless your DM is cool with house ruling differently you are going to lose out with that. Like a rogue, monks eventually get evasion.
Im sure there are certain combos that could work, just not aware off the top of my head.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Rogue isnt super beneficial. Most of the bonus actions you get from Cunning Action like Disengage or Dodge are already covered by the Step of the Wind ki feature. RAW, you cannot sneak attack using unarmed attacks, so unless your DM is cool with house ruling differently you are going to lose out with that. Like a rogue, monks eventually get evasion.
Im sure there are certain combos that could work, just not aware off the top of my head.
With the rogue, I can save the ki points for more flurry of blows and stunning strikes. And my dm is flexible, she will allow me to sneak unarmed.
Rogue isnt super beneficial. Most of the bonus actions you get from Cunning Action like Disengage or Dodge are already covered by the Step of the Wind ki feature. RAW, you cannot sneak attack using unarmed attacks, so unless your DM is cool with house ruling differently you are going to lose out with that. Like a rogue, monks eventually get evasion.
Im sure there are certain combos that could work, just not aware off the top of my head.
With the rogue, I can save the ki points for more flurry of blows and stunning strikes. And my dm is flexible, she will allow me to sneak unarmed.
In that case I would say go for it, although I am not sure a single level is going to give you alot. Expertise is nice. Sneak Attack will be only +1d6 to one attack you make if you meet the prerequisites for it. I would consider going at least until you can pick up a subclass. Swashbuckler may be good, since you could use the monk's superior mobility to single out targets for your sneak attack. If what you want is more mobility, Theif could also be fun.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Why not expertise in acrobatics? Most of monk's str features are replaced with dex.
Rogue isnt super beneficial. Most of the bonus actions you get from Cunning Action like Disengage or Dodge are already covered by the Step of the Wind ki feature. RAW, you cannot sneak attack using unarmed attacks, so unless your DM is cool with house ruling differently you are going to lose out with that. Like a rogue, monks eventually get evasion.
Im sure there are certain combos that could work, just not aware off the top of my head.
With the rogue, I can save the ki points for more flurry of blows and stunning strikes. And my dm is flexible, she will allow me to sneak unarmed.
In that case I would say go for it, although I am not sure a single level is going to give you alot. Expertise is nice. Sneak Attack will be only +1d6 to one attack you make if you meet the prerequisites for it. I would consider going at least until you can pick up a subclass. Swashbuckler may be good, since you could use the monk's superior mobility to single out targets for your sneak attack. If what you want is more mobility, Theif could also be fun.
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Why not expertise in acrobatics? Most of monk's str features are replaced with dex.
Grapple/Shove/Trip are not replaced unfortunately. You would still need to use an Athletics check to do them.
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Why not expertise in acrobatics? Most of monk's str features are replaced with dex.
Grapple/Shove/Trip are not replaced unfortunately. You would still need to use an Athletics check to do them.
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Why not expertise in acrobatics? Most of monk's str features are replaced with dex.
Grapple/Shove/Trip are not replaced unfortunately. You would still need to use an Athletics check to do them.
But should I use them often?
You COULD use them often is my point...
Proning is a big deal in 5e as it functions as a speed debuff (takes half movement to stand up) and an offensive buff for you (attacks at ADV).
Shoving is a good way to disengage at the cost of an attack as you can shove the creature away and then skedaddle.
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Why not expertise in acrobatics? Most of monk's str features are replaced with dex.
Grapple/Shove/Trip are not replaced unfortunately. You would still need to use an Athletics check to do them.
But should I use them often?
You COULD use them often is my point...
Proning is a big deal in 5e as it functions as a speed debuff (takes half movement to stand up) and an offensive buff for you (attacks at ADV).
Shoving is a good way to disengage at the cost of an attack as you can shove the creature away and then skedaddle.
The nice thing about being a monk is that you don't need to win the athletics contest if you can win the wisdom save contest. Incapacitated targets auto fail the contest. (I wish they would put that in the conditions section, along with breaking concentration)
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Why not expertise in acrobatics? Most of monk's str features are replaced with dex.
Grapple/Shove/Trip are not replaced unfortunately. You would still need to use an Athletics check to do them.
But should I use them often?
You COULD use them often is my point...
Proning is a big deal in 5e as it functions as a speed debuff (takes half movement to stand up) and an offensive buff for you (attacks at ADV).
Shoving is a good way to disengage at the cost of an attack as you can shove the creature away and then skedaddle.
The nice thing about being a monk is that you don't need to win the athletics contest if you can win the wisdom save contest. Incapacitated targets auto fail the contest. (I wish they would put that in the conditions section, along with breaking concentration)
Actually I can't see where Stunned or Incapacitated would auto fail a Dex/STR CHECK... They would auto fail a SAVE but in this case it's an ability check not a save.
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Why not expertise in acrobatics? Most of monk's str features are replaced with dex.
Grapple/Shove/Trip are not replaced unfortunately. You would still need to use an Athletics check to do them.
But should I use them often?
You COULD use them often is my point...
Proning is a big deal in 5e as it functions as a speed debuff (takes half movement to stand up) and an offensive buff for you (attacks at ADV).
Shoving is a good way to disengage at the cost of an attack as you can shove the creature away and then skedaddle.
The nice thing about being a monk is that you don't need to win the athletics contest if you can win the wisdom save contest. Incapacitated targets auto fail the contest. (I wish they would put that in the conditions section, along with breaking concentration)
Actually I can't see where Stunned or Incapacitated would auto fail a Dex/STR CHECK... They would auto fail a SAVE but in this case it's an ability check not a save.
I'd have to double check and i'm not in a place to do so right now. But i believe they fail the checks because they have no ability to take actions.
That being Said. Do keep in mind that Open Hand monks basically are already doing push and trip maneuvers when they use Flurry of Blows. So there is no need to replace Flurry of Blows Attacks with either for this subclass. You get to do the damage and then optionally add a push or trip mechanic that the person can save against for free. Alternatively, you could also choose to stop them from being able to take Reactions. Which can also reduce costs for needing to Disengage on the monk so the monk can potentially move away again.
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Why not expertise in acrobatics? Most of monk's str features are replaced with dex.
Grapple/Shove/Trip are not replaced unfortunately. You would still need to use an Athletics check to do them.
But should I use them often?
You COULD use them often is my point...
Proning is a big deal in 5e as it functions as a speed debuff (takes half movement to stand up) and an offensive buff for you (attacks at ADV).
Shoving is a good way to disengage at the cost of an attack as you can shove the creature away and then skedaddle.
The nice thing about being a monk is that you don't need to win the athletics contest if you can win the wisdom save contest. Incapacitated targets auto fail the contest. (I wish they would put that in the conditions section, along with breaking concentration)
Actually I can't see where Stunned or Incapacitated would auto fail a Dex/STR CHECK... They would auto fail a SAVE but in this case it's an ability check not a save.
I'd have to double check and i'm not in a place to do so right now. But i believe they fail the checks because they have no ability to take actions.
That being Said. Do keep in mind that Open Hand monks basically are already doing push and trip maneuvers when they use Flurry of Blows. So there is no need to replace Flurry of Blows Attacks with either for this subclass. You get to do the damage and then optionally add a push or trip mechanic that the person can save against for free. Alternatively, you could also choose to stop them from being able to take Reactions. Which can also reduce costs for needing to Disengage on the monk so the monk can potentially move away again.
Nothing states in the rules you can't do a contested check while Incapacitated.
Also you can Grapple with the extra attacks which may be excellent follow up to proning them from the flurry.
They would be at DIS to hit you, you have ADV to hit them, and they would have to burn an action to break the grapple.
Nothing states in the rules you can't do a contested check while Incapacitated.
Also you can Grapple with the extra attacks which may be excellent follow up to proning them from the flurry.
They would be at DIS to hit you, you have ADV to hit them, and they would have to burn an action to break the grapple.
And they can't stand up while grappled
The incapacitated condition doesn't mention it so I don't think it is a general rule against all contested checks, but the rules for Grappling and Shoving state that "you succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated".
You cannot grapple or shove using the bonus action attack or flurry of blows. Grapples and Shoves are special actions that require the Attack Action. They can't replace other attacks from bonus actions or reactions unless the features granting those attacks explicitly say so. The Monk's Open Hand Technique gets around this by requiring STR/DEX saving throws, which a stunned creature automatically fails.
Incapacitated condition doesn't mention this or that it breaks concentration. From the section on grapples/shoves: "You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you."
Incapacitated condition doesn't mention this or that it breaks concentration. From the section on grapples/shoves: "You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you."
Nothing states in the rules you can't do a contested check while Incapacitated.
Also you can Grapple with the extra attacks which may be excellent follow up to proning them from the flurry.
They would be at DIS to hit you, you have ADV to hit them, and they would have to burn an action to break the grapple.
And they can't stand up while grappled
The incapacitated condition doesn't mention it so I don't think it is a general rule against all contested checks, but the rules for Grappling and Shoving state that "you succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated".
You cannot grapple or shove using the bonus action attack or flurry of blows. Grapples and Shoves are special actions that require the Attack Action. They can't replace other attacks from bonus actions or reactions unless the features granting those attacks explicitly say so. The Monk's Open Hand Technique gets around this by requiring STR/DEX saving throws, which a stunned creature automatically fails.
Then you grapple during your attack action and then prone during your flurry anyway....
In either case you have grappled and proned the enemy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I am human open hand monk, almost level 4. My campaign will be up till early 10's levels.
Is it beneficial? If so, how many levels of rogue should I get, just one or even a subclass?
Rogue isnt super beneficial. Most of the bonus actions you get from Cunning Action like Disengage or Dodge are already covered by the Step of the Wind ki feature. RAW, you cannot sneak attack using unarmed attacks, so unless your DM is cool with house ruling differently you are going to lose out with that. Like a rogue, monks eventually get evasion.
Im sure there are certain combos that could work, just not aware off the top of my head.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
With the rogue, I can save the ki points for more flurry of blows and stunning strikes. And my dm is flexible, she will allow me to sneak unarmed.
In that case I would say go for it, although I am not sure a single level is going to give you alot. Expertise is nice. Sneak Attack will be only +1d6 to one attack you make if you meet the prerequisites for it. I would consider going at least until you can pick up a subclass. Swashbuckler may be good, since you could use the monk's superior mobility to single out targets for your sneak attack. If what you want is more mobility, Theif could also be fun.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Expertise in ATH can be interesting if your DM allows you to shove/trip as part of flurry of blows as a lot of creatures do not have good ATH or Acrobatics.
Why not expertise in acrobatics? Most of monk's str features are replaced with dex.
Yeah, probably at least 3 levels of rogue
Grapple/Shove/Trip are not replaced unfortunately. You would still need to use an Athletics check to do them.
But should I use them often?
You COULD use them often is my point...
Proning is a big deal in 5e as it functions as a speed debuff (takes half movement to stand up) and an offensive buff for you (attacks at ADV).
Shoving is a good way to disengage at the cost of an attack as you can shove the creature away and then skedaddle.
Its not bad. You get some more damage, ki free dash/hide bonus actions, cunning dodge, expertise, and a subclass ability to boot.
And Monk doesn't get a whole lot between 10 and 14. So I would say its worthwhile.
I wouldn't unless you go to 15 levels or more. Than one or two levels of Rogue can be useful, depending on your build.
The nice thing about being a monk is that you don't need to win the athletics contest if you can win the wisdom save contest. Incapacitated targets auto fail the contest. (I wish they would put that in the conditions section, along with breaking concentration)
Actually I can't see where Stunned or Incapacitated would auto fail a Dex/STR CHECK... They would auto fail a SAVE but in this case it's an ability check not a save.
I'd have to double check and i'm not in a place to do so right now. But i believe they fail the checks because they have no ability to take actions.
That being Said. Do keep in mind that Open Hand monks basically are already doing push and trip maneuvers when they use Flurry of Blows. So there is no need to replace Flurry of Blows Attacks with either for this subclass. You get to do the damage and then optionally add a push or trip mechanic that the person can save against for free. Alternatively, you could also choose to stop them from being able to take Reactions. Which can also reduce costs for needing to Disengage on the monk so the monk can potentially move away again.
Nothing states in the rules you can't do a contested check while Incapacitated.
Also you can Grapple with the extra attacks which may be excellent follow up to proning them from the flurry.
They would be at DIS to hit you, you have ADV to hit them, and they would have to burn an action to break the grapple.
And they can't stand up while grappled
The incapacitated condition doesn't mention it so I don't think it is a general rule against all contested checks, but the rules for Grappling and Shoving state that "you succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated".
You cannot grapple or shove using the bonus action attack or flurry of blows. Grapples and Shoves are special actions that require the Attack Action. They can't replace other attacks from bonus actions or reactions unless the features granting those attacks explicitly say so. The Monk's Open Hand Technique gets around this by requiring STR/DEX saving throws, which a stunned creature automatically fails.
Incapacitated condition doesn't mention this or that it breaks concentration. From the section on grapples/shoves: "You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you."
Gotcha thanks!
Then you grapple during your attack action and then prone during your flurry anyway....
In either case you have grappled and proned the enemy.