Hoping to get some feed back on a homebrew paladin subclass. The names to abilities I have not decided fully it's more for the mechanics of the class itself :) thank you in advance
Tenants of the dragon
Generosity
Fight against tyranny
Don't cause unnecessary harm
(Will think of a bit more to add to them but that's the idea)
Oath of the dragon spells
3rd chromatic orb , disguise self
5th dragon breath, alter self
9th asharladon stride, fireball
13th wall of fire, Dominate beast
17th Dominate person, cone of cold
Channel divinity
Elemental furry, as a bonus action you engulf your weapon and allies weapons up to a range of 30 ft in a chosen element (fire, cold, acid, poison, lightning). You must be able to see your allies for them to gain this effect. Weapons deal an extra d6 for up to 1 minute.
Draconic resilience, when targeted by an effect that deals elemental damage (fire, cold, acid, poison, lightning) you can use your reaction to gain resistance to the triggering damage type for 1 minute
Aura of dragon heart
You emit an aura while not incapacitated that stretches from 10ft in every direction but nit through total cover. When an ally starts its turn in the aura it gain temp hp equal to your paladin level. The ally only gains this benefit if it is not incapacitated.
At 18th level this extends to 30ft.
(This one I may change ti half paladin level rounded up)
15th level
Dragon hide
Gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing from non magical attacks
20th level
Dragon Knight
As an action you take on greater attributes of the dragons, you gain the following abilities that last for 1 minute
Flight speed equal to walking speed
True sight up to 120 ft
Strength, dexterity and constitution increase by 2
Once you use this ability you can't do so until you finish a long rest or spend a 5th level spell slot to use again.
So yeah that's the template. I apologise if something like this is already out there with similar abilities. I did use the oath breaker 15th level ability as I thought it fit the theme well. Let me know.
Tenets: I'd personally make these more general so it could be used to represent service to a chromatic dragon as well. For example, Pride (there is honour and glory in service), Strength (power should be used for some greater purpose), Command (the strong should lead the weak). Something along these lines? i.e- open enough that you could interpret them either heroically (proud to use strength to protect others) or selfishly (dragons should rule over others) as you wish? It avoids tying it to only "good" dragons, since paladins don't need to be good aligned.
Spells: My main thought is that it might be best to avoid spells that only deal a single elemental damage type, so that would be Ashardalon's stride, fireball, wall of fire and cone of cold, as these bind you to only a handful of dragon types. You might consider adding some of these (and spells of other elemental types) to the expanded spell list though (so the Paladin could still choose them if they wanted to). Here are some other possibilities for the prepared list:
Aura of Dragon Heart: This seems much too strong for a passive aura; even half Paladin level feels a bit high. Proficiency bonus might be better?
Dragonhide: Dragons don't usually have resistance to physical damage, and always-on damage resistances like this might be a bit strong even for a 15th level feature. It's hard to say for sure though as the only comparison within Paladin is Oath of Conquest who gets resistance to all damage but only temporarily. Not 100% sure what I'd suggest as a change as I'm not certain it needs to be changed or if it just feels a bit strange to me.
Dragon Knight: I do wonder if +2 to STR/DEX/CON might be a little clunky to use in practice; it might be easier just to say that you get +1 to weapon attack rolls and damage, and +1 to STR/DEX/CON checks and saves? This should be the same in practice but avoids any possible issues with bumping the scores up temporarily.
Sorry if that seems negative, just highlighting the things I'd take a look at, and most of the possible issues are only minor; overall I really like it, and I like the Channel Divinity powers!
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Tenants you suggested work way better as like you said goes for all dragon types.
I didn't choose elemental weapon nor protection from energy as that conflicts with the channel divinity options but I do like the summon draconic spirit aspect better. Elemental bane wicked spell and may work well with the channel divintiy
Could proficiency bonus be too weak though? I was thinking how this looks at all levels of play and I think half level may scale better. What do you think?
And yeah the simple change to plus 1 still gives the same desired effect rather than using the ability scores as can get clunky
Could proficiency bonus be too weak though? I was thinking how this looks at all levels of play and I think half level may scale better. What do you think?
It's hard to say; the issue really is that the aura is a passive bonus, i.e- it's always on. So if the party do a good job of staying within the aura then they're effectively taking less damage every round, so that can add up quickly over a long fight, or over the course of a full adventuring day.
There are a few points of comparison to try and use:
Heroism grants temporary hit-points equal to your spellcasting modifier at the start of each turn to one creature (+1 creature for each level above 1st). So usually 3-5 per turn, costing a spell slot and keeps granting the temp. hp. for one minute with concentration.
False life grants d4+4 temporary hit points to a single target (self) for up to an hour without concentration, or +5 for each level above 1st. So half Paladin level might be equivalent to this at 1st or 2nd level.
Twilight Cleric's Twilight Sanctuary Channel Divinity power lasts a minute without concentration, and can grant d6 + Cleric level temporary hit-points to one creature in the aura as a bonus action. On top of the other benefits of this power it's widely considered to be overpowered.
Oath of Glory's Inspiring Smite Channel Divinity lets you divide 2d8 + your Paladin level in temporary hit-points among multiple creatures (you can grant them all to one, or half each to two and so-on).
A Barbarian Battlerager's Reckless Abandon gives them Constitution modifier temporary hit-points whenever they use Reckless Attack; while the sub-class is considered weak, this is one of its best features and even though it's only 4-5 temporary hit-points until you reach level 20 (when it can hit 7 without further boosts) it adds up fast on a tank who wants to hit.
A Fiend Warlock's Dark One's Blessing grants Charisma modifier + Warlock level, but only when you kill a target. This is a tricky one to compare as it's hard to say how likely a character is to do this every round; against weaker hordes they can, but anything tougher might take longer.
The Heavy Armor Master feat reduces the damage of all non-magical bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage by 3, achieving essentially the same thing as refreshing hit-points, i.e- reduced damage taken each round. Of course this is per hit, but only on some damage, so it's a tricky comparison.
I'm sure there are loads of other good examples I'm forgetting, but the aim is to try and find something that isn't stronger than a resource-based ability, but still feels equivalent to other Paladin auras.
I think proficiency bonus may be closer to that mark but it's hard to say. While 2 temporary hit points doesn't sound a lot, if they refresh every turn then it adds up; if you take damage during 10 different rounds over the course of an adventuring day (could be one long battle, or several smaller ones) then you've potentially taken 20 less damage than you would have, and this is with a character that can also heal (so Lay On Hands goes even further). As that increases it means less damage taken; while it maybe becomes less as a proportion of a player's total hit-points it's still fairly significant, especially with the larger aura (easier to cover the whole party)?
It's hard to say; proficiency feels like the right level to me, but it does raise a possible multiclassing exploit (since proficiency scales with character level, not class), so half Paladin class level could work too, I just wonder if it might scale too quickly and too high? For the same 10 round example that could be 100 hit-points less damage sustained on each character within 30 feet, which is a lot of damage mitigated!
The only thing I can say for certain is that balancing is really tricky. 😄
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All very excellent points and ones that I haven't taken into consideration. I was even just reading the oath of glory paladin and didn't even clock on that it gave temp hp at the cost of a channel.
So I think the temp hp thing may not be the best route.
I'm struggling with the 7th level ability massively. As I know dragons are innately resistant to magic I didn't want to give resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage as well as resistances to magic or that would just sky rocket it to op levels.
I like the whole dragon heart/fortitude idea but trying to think of something like that.
Or perhaps if this could work. It could enhance your divinity. Or when you use the reaction to gain resistance to the damage that goes to all party members within the range? The damage channel could do a minimum of 2 on the damage die when rolled a 1 or roll the elemental damage die twice and take the highest amount?
Or perhaps if this could work. It could enhance your divinity. Or when you use the reaction to gain resistance to the damage that goes to all party members within the range? The damage channel could do a minimum of 2 on the damage die when rolled a 1?
I actually really like that idea, as it's building on features you already have (which I often like in a class/sub-class); being able to extend your Channel Divinity feels like a really good thing for a Paladin to be able to do.
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I believe roll twice and choose the highest is the better of the two; the normal average for a d6 is 3.5, setting the minimum to 2 brings that up to 4, while rolling twice I think brings it to somewhere around 4.5 (I can't remember how you calculate it, but I'm sure it's more than 4 on average).
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I believe roll twice and choose the highest is the better of the two; the normal average for a d6 is 3.5, setting the minimum to 2 brings that up to 4, while rolling twice I think brings it to somewhere around 4.5 (I can't remember how you calculate it, but I'm sure it's more than 4 on average).
Perfect so that should be it now to try I think. I am going to re post it here when I get the correct wording from the other source books. Thank you and when it is a final draft would appreciate it if you could look again at it all together
As for damage mitigating aura effects, keep in mind that sticking together also means that enemy AoE effects are also hitting more of your party so it's a two-edged sword.
For example the Oath of Ancient Paladin has an aura that provides resistance to to damage from spells within 10ft (later 30ft). Being close to him means taking less damage but if there already are others near the paladin being somewhere else means potentially not taking any damage in the first place.
To ensure the same dynamic with tempHP I'd word it so that creatures who end their turn outside of the aura lose all the tempHP provided by it (so they can't just move to the Paladin, get some free tempHP and then be on their way again).
Or just make it basically a copy&paste of the Ancient's aura but make it only apply to the usual chromatic/metallic damage types but also include non-spell sources. I'd exclude the gem dragon's damage types since then you might as well give them resistance to all damage and that'd be too much.
Thank you for the feedback. The other individual haravikk, showed me how other classes and even the subclass oath of glory deal with temp hp. So decided to go with the aura enhancing the channel divinity options
Draconic gift- as a bonus action yours and allies weapons, you can see within 30 ft, are imbued with elemental energy. The chosen element type is from the following list; acid, cold,fire,lightning or poison. The chosen element does an additional d6 of damage when the weapon is used. The effect lasts for 1 minute.
Draconic resilience- when damaged by an element type, from the list in the 'dragonic gift' you can use your reaction to gain resistance to the chosen damage type for 10 minutes.
7th level
Aura of dragon heart
The aura amits 10 ft centered on you. All allies in the radius gain the benefits of the aura. The aura enhances dragonic gift and dragonic resilience. In the following ways;
Draconic gift improved- when in the aura and under the effect of draconic gift, the creature rolls the elemental damage die twice and takes the highest amount. Furthermore the elemental damage overcomes resistance.
Draconic resilience- when this is activated allies also get the benefits from the draconic resilience detailed above.
At 18th level the aura extends to 30ft
15th level
Draconic will
When subjected to make a saving throw to concentrate on a spell you can now instead pass the save instead. This ability must be stated before the roll is made. This can be used a number of times equal to your charisma modifier. All uses replenish after a long rest.
20th level
Dragon warrior
As an action you take on the following traits.
Flight speed equal to walking speed
True sight up to 120ft
Strength, dexterity and constitution checks and save increase by 1.
You can't use this ability again until you finish a long rest or spend a 5th level spell slot to use again.
Let me know what you think to this. Thank you all for feedback previous to this, I would like to hear now what you think. 15th level ability i did change from the first idea.
I like the new 15th-level feature, it's a lot like a limited form of legendary resistance, and I think declaring it before a roll makes sense to keep it balanced. You can hold it for saves you're less likely to make (took a lot of damage so the DC would be high) and it pairs well with the concentration spells in your arsenal (dragon's breath, elemental bane, summon draconic spirit and so-on). I think it fits really well.
For the 20th-level Dragon Warrior, you've got the saves increasing by one but seem to have lost the bonus to attack and damage rolls, was that intentional? I think it needs that slight offensive bonus to keep it on par with other Paladin avatar features, as while flight and truesight are great bonuses that can be super useful, they're also somewhat situational.
I like the new form of the aura effect, but I've only only just realised that Draconic Gift applied in a 30 foot radius from the outset; somehow I had it in my head that it was for the Paladin only. In that case I might advise tweaking Draconic Gift something like:
Limit it to the Paladin only initially as concentration-free bonus damage of your choice on every attack for a minute is still really good.
Once the aura comes online, all allies in the aura get the same bonus damage when using that Channel Divinity.
The Paladin should then be the only one who gains the further benefits (roll twice, choose best for damage, and ignore resistance) so they remain the strongest of the group?
Sorry I didn't spot this sooner, not sure how I missed it! Concentration free bonus damage to everything within 30-feet from 2nd-level would be too strong even with a limited timer, I think with tweaks like these it would scale more appropriately as at 7th-level it still becomes an early crusader's mantle-like effect for your party's frontline, which can be stacked further (so is still strong if your party is willing to bunch up to use it)?
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The 20yh level ability was an oversight on my part as it should also have the plus 1 to damage and attack rolls.
Okay so You think everyone outside the radius would be too strong? I guess it's similar to devotion where they get a magic weapon for a channel so don't want to outshine on that part
I guess it's similar to devotion where they get a magic weapon for a channel so don't want to outshine on that part
It's only similar till the aura kicks in, plus Sacred Weapon is a bonus on the attack rolls rather than the damage? I think elemental damage is pretty distinct for the early levels, and still fits the theme?
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Hey everyone,
Hoping to get some feed back on a homebrew paladin subclass. The names to abilities I have not decided fully it's more for the mechanics of the class itself :) thank you in advance
Tenants of the dragon
Generosity
Fight against tyranny
Don't cause unnecessary harm
(Will think of a bit more to add to them but that's the idea)
Oath of the dragon spells
3rd chromatic orb , disguise self
5th dragon breath, alter self
9th asharladon stride, fireball
13th wall of fire, Dominate beast
17th Dominate person, cone of cold
Channel divinity
Elemental furry, as a bonus action you engulf your weapon and allies weapons up to a range of 30 ft in a chosen element (fire, cold, acid, poison, lightning). You must be able to see your allies for them to gain this effect. Weapons deal an extra d6 for up to 1 minute.
Draconic resilience, when targeted by an effect that deals elemental damage (fire, cold, acid, poison, lightning) you can use your reaction to gain resistance to the triggering damage type for 1 minute
Aura of dragon heart
You emit an aura while not incapacitated that stretches from 10ft in every direction but nit through total cover. When an ally starts its turn in the aura it gain temp hp equal to your paladin level. The ally only gains this benefit if it is not incapacitated.
At 18th level this extends to 30ft.
(This one I may change ti half paladin level rounded up)
15th level
Dragon hide
Gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing from non magical attacks
20th level
Dragon Knight
As an action you take on greater attributes of the dragons, you gain the following abilities that last for 1 minute
Flight speed equal to walking speed
True sight up to 120 ft
Strength, dexterity and constitution increase by 2
Once you use this ability you can't do so until you finish a long rest or spend a 5th level spell slot to use again.
So yeah that's the template. I apologise if something like this is already out there with similar abilities. I did use the oath breaker 15th level ability as I thought it fit the theme well. Let me know.
The tenants I took inspiration from the metallic dragons
Bronze - Generosity
Gold- against tyranny
Silver- unessessary harm
Thank you for taking the time to read it.
I really like the idea, but I have few comments:
Sorry if that seems negative, just highlighting the things I'd take a look at, and most of the possible issues are only minor; overall I really like it, and I like the Channel Divinity powers!
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Thats the feedback I was after thank you.
Tenants you suggested work way better as like you said goes for all dragon types.
I didn't choose elemental weapon nor protection from energy as that conflicts with the channel divinity options but I do like the summon draconic spirit aspect better. Elemental bane wicked spell and may work well with the channel divintiy
Could proficiency bonus be too weak though? I was thinking how this looks at all levels of play and I think half level may scale better. What do you think?
And yeah the simple change to plus 1 still gives the same desired effect rather than using the ability scores as can get clunky
It's hard to say; the issue really is that the aura is a passive bonus, i.e- it's always on. So if the party do a good job of staying within the aura then they're effectively taking less damage every round, so that can add up quickly over a long fight, or over the course of a full adventuring day.
There are a few points of comparison to try and use:
I'm sure there are loads of other good examples I'm forgetting, but the aim is to try and find something that isn't stronger than a resource-based ability, but still feels equivalent to other Paladin auras.
I think proficiency bonus may be closer to that mark but it's hard to say. While 2 temporary hit points doesn't sound a lot, if they refresh every turn then it adds up; if you take damage during 10 different rounds over the course of an adventuring day (could be one long battle, or several smaller ones) then you've potentially taken 20 less damage than you would have, and this is with a character that can also heal (so Lay On Hands goes even further). As that increases it means less damage taken; while it maybe becomes less as a proportion of a player's total hit-points it's still fairly significant, especially with the larger aura (easier to cover the whole party)?
It's hard to say; proficiency feels like the right level to me, but it does raise a possible multiclassing exploit (since proficiency scales with character level, not class), so half Paladin class level could work too, I just wonder if it might scale too quickly and too high? For the same 10 round example that could be 100 hit-points less damage sustained on each character within 30 feet, which is a lot of damage mitigated!
The only thing I can say for certain is that balancing is really tricky. 😄
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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All very excellent points and ones that I haven't taken into consideration. I was even just reading the oath of glory paladin and didn't even clock on that it gave temp hp at the cost of a channel.
So I think the temp hp thing may not be the best route.
I'm struggling with the 7th level ability massively. As I know dragons are innately resistant to magic I didn't want to give resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage as well as resistances to magic or that would just sky rocket it to op levels.
I like the whole dragon heart/fortitude idea but trying to think of something like that.
Or perhaps if this could work. It could enhance your divinity. Or when you use the reaction to gain resistance to the damage that goes to all party members within the range? The damage channel could do a minimum of 2 on the damage die when rolled a 1 or roll the elemental damage die twice and take the highest amount?
This is me just throwing ideas out there 😅
I actually really like that idea, as it's building on features you already have (which I often like in a class/sub-class); being able to extend your Channel Divinity feels like a really good thing for a Paladin to be able to do.
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Cool I think that will work better overall. Even have the effect of the damage effect everyone that has the elemental furry divinity on them.
What do you think is a better feature. Count 1 as 2s or roll the d6 2 times and take the highest amount?
I believe roll twice and choose the highest is the better of the two; the normal average for a d6 is 3.5, setting the minimum to 2 brings that up to 4, while rolling twice I think brings it to somewhere around 4.5 (I can't remember how you calculate it, but I'm sure it's more than 4 on average).
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Perfect so that should be it now to try I think. I am going to re post it here when I get the correct wording from the other source books. Thank you and when it is a final draft would appreciate it if you could look again at it all together
Thank you for the feedback. The other individual haravikk, showed me how other classes and even the subclass oath of glory deal with temp hp. So decided to go with the aura enhancing the channel divinity options
So here is an updated version of the subclass
Tenants of the dragon
Pride in oneself-
Strength to do what is must
Lead and guide
Spells
3rd level, chromatic orb, command
5th level, dragon breath , alter self
9th level, glyph of warding, fear
13th level, Dominate beast, elemental bane
17th level, summon draconic spirit
Draconic gift- as a bonus action yours and allies weapons, you can see within 30 ft, are imbued with elemental energy. The chosen element type is from the following list; acid, cold,fire,lightning or poison. The chosen element does an additional d6 of damage when the weapon is used. The effect lasts for 1 minute.
Draconic resilience- when damaged by an element type, from the list in the 'dragonic gift' you can use your reaction to gain resistance to the chosen damage type for 10 minutes.
7th level
Aura of dragon heart
The aura amits 10 ft centered on you. All allies in the radius gain the benefits of the aura. The aura enhances dragonic gift and dragonic resilience. In the following ways;
Draconic gift improved- when in the aura and under the effect of draconic gift, the creature rolls the elemental damage die twice and takes the highest amount. Furthermore the elemental damage overcomes resistance.
Draconic resilience- when this is activated allies also get the benefits from the draconic resilience detailed above.
At 18th level the aura extends to 30ft
15th level
Draconic will
When subjected to make a saving throw to concentrate on a spell you can now instead pass the save instead. This ability must be stated before the roll is made. This can be used a number of times equal to your charisma modifier. All uses replenish after a long rest.
20th level
Dragon warrior
As an action you take on the following traits.
Flight speed equal to walking speed
True sight up to 120ft
Strength, dexterity and constitution checks and save increase by 1.
You can't use this ability again until you finish a long rest or spend a 5th level spell slot to use again.
Let me know what you think to this. Thank you all for feedback previous to this, I would like to hear now what you think. 15th level ability i did change from the first idea.
I like the new 15th-level feature, it's a lot like a limited form of legendary resistance, and I think declaring it before a roll makes sense to keep it balanced. You can hold it for saves you're less likely to make (took a lot of damage so the DC would be high) and it pairs well with the concentration spells in your arsenal (dragon's breath, elemental bane, summon draconic spirit and so-on). I think it fits really well.
For the 20th-level Dragon Warrior, you've got the saves increasing by one but seem to have lost the bonus to attack and damage rolls, was that intentional? I think it needs that slight offensive bonus to keep it on par with other Paladin avatar features, as while flight and truesight are great bonuses that can be super useful, they're also somewhat situational.
I like the new form of the aura effect, but I've only only just realised that Draconic Gift applied in a 30 foot radius from the outset; somehow I had it in my head that it was for the Paladin only. In that case I might advise tweaking Draconic Gift something like:
Sorry I didn't spot this sooner, not sure how I missed it! Concentration free bonus damage to everything within 30-feet from 2nd-level would be too strong even with a limited timer, I think with tweaks like these it would scale more appropriately as at 7th-level it still becomes an early crusader's mantle-like effect for your party's frontline, which can be stacked further (so is still strong if your party is willing to bunch up to use it)?
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The 20yh level ability was an oversight on my part as it should also have the plus 1 to damage and attack rolls.
Okay so You think everyone outside the radius would be too strong? I guess it's similar to devotion where they get a magic weapon for a channel so don't want to outshine on that part
It's only similar till the aura kicks in, plus Sacred Weapon is a bonus on the attack rolls rather than the damage? I think elemental damage is pretty distinct for the early levels, and still fits the theme?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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All good then. I think I'm ready to play test this with the paladin of the group. Thank you for your help