I created a simple scorecard rating all Ranger subclasses from levels 3 to 11. Please find it here: Ranger subclass scorecard 5e
Some key highlights from this exercise:
Gloomstalker is the undisputed king (but this is not new, since alongside Paladins, it's the only martial build that can compete against overpowered full casters);
Fey Wanderer and Swamkeeper come in close second thanks to their versatility and poweful level 11 abilities;
Drakewarden has a slightly edge over TCoE Beastmaster mainly because their minor hidden abilities (Infused Strikes, elemental resistance, free mount, etc);
Even though Hunter and Beastmaster lack minor ribbon abilities and additional spells, they are solid subclasses;
Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer are the weakest subclasses by far. Their abilities were poorly designed, they have several problems with bonus action conflict and their best capabilities (Haste for Horizon Walker and Magic User's Nemesis for Monster Slayer) come too late in the game.
Although we don't always agree on the implementation of certain features, that I appreciate a consistent analysis. Please don't feel like my preferences and comments are in any way an insult to the work you have done.
I had to assume a theoretical points max But I don't know what you think it is. a little clarity or spot for definitions could help people less familiar with 5e or a group with different perspectives quickly grasp your values. The category of big spell doesn't really hold an equal value (in my mind) as the other categories. It has the value of a unique known spell but it still requires a slot. if a subclass has an NA just means more uses of a regular ranger spell which are usually amazing and actually often less situational than condition spells. I would give the spell lists at best an extra point for a good spell Or group it with the minor spells (It throws off level based ratings but gives a better level 11 character analysis. Minor spells could be a "rating so far" and then replaced with a "new spells rating" for the second set of values. at At the same time, the value of Permanent companions, utility, concentration, equipment options starts to get obfuscated. for example Tasha's beast or the drake can do "support" just by blocking a doorway for a few turns.
This bring me round to the point of the missing PHB beastmaster. Its hard to fit into such a categorization as it is but it would actually have interesting values. the Main would be lower than tasha's but the support options would be higher. The defense and utility category is also odd as many of the best PHB options actually have better AC or utility but slightly lower HP. by my estimation PHB beast master should still get at least 8-9 points by trying to stick to your systems intent.
I lean towards a different method of categorization being more helpful especially if it can be standardized across classes. I like a system of at X level these five categories are rated and added for a rank. (damage, defense, field effects, out of combat utility, versatility). each category could be then given a 0-5 based on resources and breadth of options. I might add a specific a adjustment or separate category for Table specific issues or dm dependent features. for example Monster hunter or PHB beasmaster can get a great increase if your dm uses specific rules their features imply. They can also be hindered depending on the standard.
First of all, thanks very much for your feedback and insights. Really appreciate.
I actually agree with everything you said. I didn’t include PHB Beastmaster because I have never played one and neither saw one in action; therefore I didnt find myself properly qualified to rate this subclass.
About spells, I agree with you, but I actually feel that having prepared spells, even if they are situational at best, a good thing to have. I only rated Haste and Web with 3 points because both are really good.
When I started this exercise, I actually tried to categorize based on different pillar of game and rules of engagement for combat, but it would be too broad to mix class abilities, spells, game knowledge (like use a pet to protect yourself) and I had the sensation I wouldn’t compare apple to apples. I did another scorecard to compare martial classes that could be used (Gloomstalker and PHB Hunter are there). See it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Sh_lJfTw3q7jQtS3iXSWZ9maWpwlLEJhiOhXxqov6_E/edit
Categorically I would not agree with your opinions on this.
It really is a matter of how the player utilizes the various powers of a subclass.
On the surface a Gloomstalker seems the most powerful. Their biggest advantage is on initiative. When you have members of your party without darkvision and your carrying an source of light that really clustermucks the Gloomstalker. And for thier powers to really work they need to be alone.
I would categorize the Horizon Walker as one of the more powerful. When they hit 5th, 7th, and 9th levels the things they get make the terribly deadly. Haste at 9th level. Say the HW is a crossbow expert with hand crossbow. Using Etheral Step you can get almost anywhere inside the enemy line. Cast Haste, come out of the Etheral, You have 3 attacks and a bonus action (hand crossbow) or you can bonus action misty step away
Oh well, not exactly. I have found myself in a party where no one had Darkvision. So my character saved some money and bought a Bullseye Lantern for everyone. From this day onwards, his ability was never hampered again. At some point in time, pretty much all players acquired some sort of Darkvision with magic items and multiclasses, but the Lantern saved the day for my character.
Maybe I’m biased, but I don’t see any advantage of casting / activating Ethereal Step. This bonus action would be more useful attacking with CBE. I mean… I got all the stylish flavor, someone teleporting and appearing in the middle of the fray. But it’s so underwhelming. I like Haste a lot, my biggest concern is that Rangers usually cannot afford Resilient CON so soon (you’ll need CBE, SS and raise DEX). Also if you get Resilient CON, it means you didn’t get Resilient WIS, so you are in a very dangerous place against debilitating mental effects. Hold Person is a death statement. Gloomstalkers don’t need to worry about it.
Really cool breakdown. A friend played a Deep Gnome Gloomstalker in OOTA and it was an extremely helpful subclass to play in that campaign. I am currently playing a Dragonborn Swarmkeeper in Ghosts of Saltmarsh and loving it so much. Two of my favorite subclasses and I can see why they rated so high.
Did you stop at level 11 cause of average tier of play for most characters? I wonder how things would pan out if you included the level 15 abilities? I think about the same placement of Gloomstalker first with Swamkeeper & Fey Wanderer second again. With maybe Swarmkeeper edging out Fey Wanderer for sole 2nd place.
Yeah, mainly because very few games go beyond level 9-12. I’m playing 5e since 2014 and I have never played beyond level 12 in my entire life. I mean, we had couple one-shots at higher levels, but I don’t have enough experience to properly evaluate level 15 abilities based in actual gameplay.
One thing I consider super important is how useful is the sub-classe since level 3, and we all know Gloomstalker is hugely frontloaded.
I think weighing level 3 abilities over later ones is important. Your level 3 features will get used for the most play.
In your weighing of the 3rd level features I have some thoughts. I have played a melee gloom stalker and found that Dread Ambusher (at least the damage part) was only usable about 50% of the time. If a combat started out of melee (battlefield, ship to ship) or it was better to not rush ahead and get into melee, you lost the extra attack and damage. With an archer this would not be as much of an issue but for melee builds it means that it is likely not a 3 and might be even a 1 when compared to the others.
In comparison I have found that Fey Wanderer's Dreadful strikes, and Swarmkeeper's gathered swarm damage were continuously useful in nearly all fights and worth more damage. I would rate these both a 3. In particular the fact that these used no action economy is a big plus.
Monster Slayer's Prey's extra damage requiring a bonus action to turn on makes it much, much worse. I have seen entire combats go by without ever getting to use it due to other more valuable bonus action uses. Its probably a 1 in my experience.
The Hunter's options for level 3 damage increase are also a bit weird to rate. Horde Breaker and Colossus Slayer are both 3's, but Giant Killer is in nearly all campaigns weaker and in many a 1. Ranking Hunter with each combination is probably not valuable so just assuming people take the most valuable is fair and just giving them a 3 is fair.
At later levels I am a huge fan of Gloomstalker's Flurry. With any build that gets you three attacks (PAM, Dual wielder, CBX) your odds of missing are reasonable and this will keep you on par with the Fighter for number of attacks. Additionally both power attack builds (GWM and Sharpshooter) are highly likely to miss once again helping you close the gap with the fighter's additional extra attack. But we can't just rank them 3's all across the board.
That makes a lot of sense, Elfdope. Although I didn’t explicitly mentioned, I have considered an optimal ranged base build for this scorecard usually prioritizing CBX + SS. I believe I can expand this scorecard for both scenarios: melee and ranged. Dread Ambusher also has the speed boost to help you get into the action at melee, but I agree that at some circumstances, take the attack action is not the ideal route.
For sure some rates would be different, but I don’t think the overall feeling will change so much, as you said: Fey Wanderer and Swarmkeepers are great, Monster Slayer is terrible and Hunter is solid; for the record, I have rated it based only in Colossus Slayer and Horde Breaker.
As I stared at the rankings some more, I might recommend downgrading Gloom Stalker's minor spells to a 1. Both are useful spells, but I am not sure either are the equal to misty step.
If I had to put those offerings in order I would probably place them 3 - Swarmkeeper 2 - Fey Wanderer, Horizon Walker 1 - Gloomstalker 0 - Monster Slayer (I rate zone of truth as a negatively useful spell but your rating of 1 is entirely fair)
On the big spells the only one I would upgrade is dispel magic. If it was possible to rank magic circle lower I would like to do that, because its not fair to gaseous form to have the same ranking.
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I created a simple scorecard rating all Ranger subclasses from levels 3 to 11. Please find it here: Ranger subclass scorecard 5e
Some key highlights from this exercise:
Although we don't always agree on the implementation of certain features, that I appreciate a consistent analysis. Please don't feel like my preferences and comments are in any way an insult to the work you have done.
I had to assume a theoretical points max But I don't know what you think it is. a little clarity or spot for definitions could help people less familiar with 5e or a group with different perspectives quickly grasp your values. The category of big spell doesn't really hold an equal value (in my mind) as the other categories. It has the value of a unique known spell but it still requires a slot. if a subclass has an NA just means more uses of a regular ranger spell which are usually amazing and actually often less situational than condition spells. I would give the spell lists at best an extra point for a good spell Or group it with the minor spells (It throws off level based ratings but gives a better level 11 character analysis. Minor spells could be a "rating so far" and then replaced with a "new spells rating" for the second set of values. at At the same time, the value of Permanent companions, utility, concentration, equipment options starts to get obfuscated. for example Tasha's beast or the drake can do "support" just by blocking a doorway for a few turns.
This bring me round to the point of the missing PHB beastmaster. Its hard to fit into such a categorization as it is but it would actually have interesting values. the Main would be lower than tasha's but the support options would be higher. The defense and utility category is also odd as many of the best PHB options actually have better AC or utility but slightly lower HP. by my estimation PHB beast master should still get at least 8-9 points by trying to stick to your systems intent.
I lean towards a different method of categorization being more helpful especially if it can be standardized across classes. I like a system of at X level these five categories are rated and added for a rank. (damage, defense, field effects, out of combat utility, versatility). each category could be then given a 0-5 based on resources and breadth of options. I might add a specific a adjustment or separate category for Table specific issues or dm dependent features. for example Monster hunter or PHB beasmaster can get a great increase if your dm uses specific rules their features imply. They can also be hindered depending on the standard.
First of all, thanks very much for your feedback and insights. Really appreciate.
I actually agree with everything you said. I didn’t include PHB Beastmaster because I have never played one and neither saw one in action; therefore I didnt find myself properly qualified to rate this subclass.
About spells, I agree with you, but I actually feel that having prepared spells, even if they are situational at best, a good thing to have. I only rated Haste and Web with 3 points because both are really good.
When I started this exercise, I actually tried to categorize based on different pillar of game and rules of engagement for combat, but it would be too broad to mix class abilities, spells, game knowledge (like use a pet to protect yourself) and I had the sensation I wouldn’t compare apple to apples. I did another scorecard to compare martial classes that could be used (Gloomstalker and PHB Hunter are there). See it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Sh_lJfTw3q7jQtS3iXSWZ9maWpwlLEJhiOhXxqov6_E/edit
Categorically I would not agree with your opinions on this.
It really is a matter of how the player utilizes the various powers of a subclass.
On the surface a Gloomstalker seems the most powerful. Their biggest advantage is on initiative. When you have members of your party without darkvision and your carrying an source of light that really clustermucks the Gloomstalker. And for thier powers to really work they need to be alone.
I would categorize the Horizon Walker as one of the more powerful. When they hit 5th, 7th, and 9th levels the things they get make the terribly deadly. Haste at 9th level. Say the HW is a crossbow expert with hand crossbow. Using Etheral Step you can get almost anywhere inside the enemy line. Cast Haste, come out of the Etheral, You have 3 attacks and a bonus action (hand crossbow) or you can bonus action misty step away
Oh well, not exactly. I have found myself in a party where no one had Darkvision. So my character saved some money and bought a Bullseye Lantern for everyone. From this day onwards, his ability was never hampered again. At some point in time, pretty much all players acquired some sort of Darkvision with magic items and multiclasses, but the Lantern saved the day for my character.
Maybe I’m biased, but I don’t see any advantage of casting / activating Ethereal Step. This bonus action would be more useful attacking with CBE. I mean… I got all the stylish flavor, someone teleporting and appearing in the middle of the fray. But it’s so underwhelming. I like Haste a lot, my biggest concern is that Rangers usually cannot afford Resilient CON so soon (you’ll need CBE, SS and raise DEX). Also if you get Resilient CON, it means you didn’t get Resilient WIS, so you are in a very dangerous place against debilitating mental effects. Hold Person is a death statement. Gloomstalkers don’t need to worry about it.
Really cool breakdown. A friend played a Deep Gnome Gloomstalker in OOTA and it was an extremely helpful subclass to play in that campaign. I am currently playing a Dragonborn Swarmkeeper in Ghosts of Saltmarsh and loving it so much. Two of my favorite subclasses and I can see why they rated so high.
Did you stop at level 11 cause of average tier of play for most characters? I wonder how things would pan out if you included the level 15 abilities? I think about the same placement of Gloomstalker first with Swamkeeper & Fey Wanderer second again. With maybe Swarmkeeper edging out Fey Wanderer for sole 2nd place.
Hey! Thanks for your feedback.
Yeah, mainly because very few games go beyond level 9-12. I’m playing 5e since 2014 and I have never played beyond level 12 in my entire life. I mean, we had couple one-shots at higher levels, but I don’t have enough experience to properly evaluate level 15 abilities based in actual gameplay.
One thing I consider super important is how useful is the sub-classe since level 3, and we all know Gloomstalker is hugely frontloaded.
I think weighing level 3 abilities over later ones is important. Your level 3 features will get used for the most play.
In your weighing of the 3rd level features I have some thoughts.
I have played a melee gloom stalker and found that Dread Ambusher (at least the damage part) was only usable about 50% of the time. If a combat started out of melee (battlefield, ship to ship) or it was better to not rush ahead and get into melee, you lost the extra attack and damage. With an archer this would not be as much of an issue but for melee builds it means that it is likely not a 3 and might be even a 1 when compared to the others.
In comparison I have found that Fey Wanderer's Dreadful strikes, and Swarmkeeper's gathered swarm damage were continuously useful in nearly all fights and worth more damage. I would rate these both a 3. In particular the fact that these used no action economy is a big plus.
Monster Slayer's Prey's extra damage requiring a bonus action to turn on makes it much, much worse. I have seen entire combats go by without ever getting to use it due to other more valuable bonus action uses. Its probably a 1 in my experience.
The Hunter's options for level 3 damage increase are also a bit weird to rate. Horde Breaker and Colossus Slayer are both 3's, but Giant Killer is in nearly all campaigns weaker and in many a 1. Ranking Hunter with each combination is probably not valuable so just assuming people take the most valuable is fair and just giving them a 3 is fair.
At later levels I am a huge fan of Gloomstalker's Flurry. With any build that gets you three attacks (PAM, Dual wielder, CBX) your odds of missing are reasonable and this will keep you on par with the Fighter for number of attacks. Additionally both power attack builds (GWM and Sharpshooter) are highly likely to miss once again helping you close the gap with the fighter's additional extra attack. But we can't just rank them 3's all across the board.
That makes a lot of sense, Elfdope. Although I didn’t explicitly mentioned, I have considered an optimal ranged base build for this scorecard usually prioritizing CBX + SS. I believe I can expand this scorecard for both scenarios: melee and ranged. Dread Ambusher also has the speed boost to help you get into the action at melee, but I agree that at some circumstances, take the attack action is not the ideal route.
For sure some rates would be different, but I don’t think the overall feeling will change so much, as you said: Fey Wanderer and Swarmkeepers are great, Monster Slayer is terrible and Hunter is solid; for the record, I have rated it based only in Colossus Slayer and Horde Breaker.
As I stared at the rankings some more, I might recommend downgrading Gloom Stalker's minor spells to a 1. Both are useful spells, but I am not sure either are the equal to misty step.
If I had to put those offerings in order I would probably place them
3 - Swarmkeeper
2 - Fey Wanderer, Horizon Walker
1 - Gloomstalker
0 - Monster Slayer (I rate zone of truth as a negatively useful spell but your rating of 1 is entirely fair)
On the big spells the only one I would upgrade is dispel magic. If it was possible to rank magic circle lower I would like to do that, because its not fair to gaseous form to have the same ranking.