I'm looking at making a wisdom based melee character. I don't like wild shape, so no moon druid suggestions, please. My thoughts are swirling around Ranger 2 for druidic Warrior and War Cleric, but not set on the sequencing and splits. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Is Nature Cleric out of question? Might simplify your way towards Shilleagh (or Primal Savagery) and remain as a single class.
1st level really depends on the saves you prefer (Ranger's Str/Dex or Cleric's Wis/Cha), though going with Ranger does sum you a whopping total of ONE extra HP in the end.😃
If you're going with Shillelagh, the Polearm Master feat is an option for you, since it grants the bonus action attack even if the quarterstaff is imbued by the spell and wielded single-handedly. Bonus Action economy might be a little weird on the first few rounds of combat (Shillelagh, the Polearm Master feat, Healing Word, etc.).
Since Cleric has much more interesting things to spend his Concentration on and you're not going Ranger 20 for Foe Slayer anyway, I'd advise against choosing Favored Foe over Favored Enemy (enjoy those extra Languages).
Edit: Another thing regarding 1st level choice is the Ranger's multiclass requirement of 13 Dex and Wis, which is not present if you go the other way (Ranger > Cleric, which only requires 13 Wis).
That's not how multiclassing works. You need to meet the multiclassing requirements of every class you currently have and the new one to pick up a new one.
That's not how multiclassing works. You need to meet the multiclassing requirements of every class you currently have and the new one to pick up a new one.
Yeah, that was painful. 🤣 I blame late night, lack of sleep and the other gimmicky builds I'm going through.
I've done ranger and cleric before. I would like to point out "pay close attention to concentration." You are more likely to loose it due to a hit in melee than at range. Also you will want to balance out spell selection so you don't ever have to decide between cool spells because your already concentrating on something.
Was looking at War Cleric to use the BA attack, and ranger with martial weapon proficiency, I don't need the shillelagh. Had been thinking polearm or sword and board.
If I go cleric at 1 I have weaponized BA from the start, might not even go Ranger 5. Thinking of swarm keeper for the extra damage and frees up concentration from needing hunters mark.
Oh, you mentioned Wisdom-based and got me thinking on a Wisdom-based attack (Primal Savagery, Shillelagh). Though you're already getting martial weapons from the War Domain (if you're going with that), you don't need Ranger specifically for that.
I think the Shillelagh Ranger/Cleric leads you down a somewhat narrow path because once you make some of the decisions for the build other decisions start to feel like the logical progression.
1. Using Ranger in the build means it feels weird not taking 5 levels. Gaining extra attack is one of the major draws to splicing a half-caster onto a full-caster.
2. It's awkward putting off extra attack, so once you sign up for making that a key part of the build, it makes sense to get it as soon as possible. This makes starting Ranger 5 very worthwhile.
3. Shillelagh means using a quarterstaff, which means Polearm Master feels like a weird feat to not pick up.
4. Once you take Polearm Master, War Cleric's War Priest ability is redundant and unnecessary.
5. Playing two classes that love concentration spells with a melee build incentivizes picking up ways to boost concentration checks. This means constitution save proficiency and/or war caster.
I think War Cleric would be better on a greatsword wielding strength ranger in medium armor with 14 dex and wisdom, where the bonus action attack is both unique, and more damaging.
You make good points here and some of these are exactly what I'm thinking.
1.This was my thought with War Cleric, I have the second attack option as soon as I take that class. Yes, it is limited to Wisdom modifier, but still effective.
2. Extra attack down the road will allow a third attack when paired with War Priest.
3. I don't want to be dependent on Shillelagh, it doesn't scale and I would be able to use better d8 options or even a d10 or d12 with martial proficiency.
4. Polearm master has a weaker attack that War Priest, so a versatile or two-handed would benefit and negate the absolute need for PAM.
5. Swarm keeper has the additional d6 damage that could replace Hunter's Mark, thereby freeing a concentration for Bless or Spirit Guardians, as the situation dictates.
Conceptionally, the Druidic Warrior makes the build more SAD than MAD. This would allow greater focus on Dex, the lack of PAM allows for War Caster, Resilient Con, or the oft used Elven Accuracy.
You really don't need a greater focus on dex. Grab a 14 to pair with breast plate or half-plate (depending on whether you care about being sneaky or not) and you're set. You really can't use more than that effectively. You can use a 16 if you also grab medium armor master, but that's just hard to fit on the build. Any more than that and you're no longer a SAD build and are just a dex build with a side of wisdom.
Polearm Master's all day bonus action attack trumps War Priest hands down. Especially if you're going for Shillelagh since you can't use any other weapons besides a quarterstaff or club. The slightly higher damage doesn't compare to always having it available. Not unless you're really going for it with a heavy weapon or longbow. Not to mention to get the War Cleric bonus action attack you have to put off extra attack, or you're waiting until level 6. Variant Human or Custom Lineage has Polearm Master at level 1 to weaponize the bonus action forever, and hits extra attack on time at level 5.
Shillelagh doesn't scale like other cantrips, it scales with extra attack. So it's quite good on an extra attack class. I think you either depend on it and focus on wisdom, or drop it from the build and focus on a different stat.
Swarmkeeper is my favorite Ranger sub hands down, but it's the movement that really puts the juice in Gathered Swarm. If you're looking for a subclass purely for a damage boost then Fey Wanderer, Hunter and Gloomstalker better choices. I still highly recommend Swarmkeeper, but it's a tactical choice that's more adept at controlling the battlefield than piling on damage.
Just throwing this out there, but spiritual weapon would weaponize your bonus action, keep the wisdom focus, not mess with concentration, and not interfere with level 5 ranger extra attack, which is a great idea, fun too! You'd only need 3 levels in any cleric to get. Are you using Tasha's? Spiritual weapon would allow you to use favored foe in conjunction. And this is all just attacking. Healing word and aid would really buff your support role by quite a lot. Hunter ranger/light cleric would make for a great melee+AoE PC.
Ranger X/Nature Cleric 3 allows for Spiritual Weapon casting to do better on a bonus than PAM. Nature Cleric grants access to Shillelagh without needing to take Druidic Warrior, so you could combine the Shillelagh with Dueling for improved damage or Defense for...well, improved defense. Nature cleric also grants heavy armor, so Dex can be defocused if Dex skills aren't required, as well as adding an additional ranger-y skill. The ESL is unfortunately weak and the Channel Divinity is not ideal, but there's a lot to be said for taking a spoonful of Nature cleric if the goal is a Wisdom-based melee ranger. Comes online later than I particularly care for, you're either rushing Ranger 5 for multiattack and losing access to Spiritual Weapon for heap long time, or you're mixing your multiclasses up and losing access to multiattack for a while.
The other alternative to a 'wisdom melee build' is straight ranger, using the Tasha's Cauldron Primal Beastmaster. The primal critter attacks using your ranger spell attack modifier, i.e. your Wisdom, which aligns with Shillelagh. Druidic Warrior (or Magic Initiate) become mandatory at that point, but the beast gives you an unusually powerful bonus action that runs off your Wisdom. Could be worth investigating - I've just started playing with a Primal Beastmaster, and the critter hits surprisingly hard at least at the low levels we're starting at.
The progression of the Spiritual Weapon route is so painful. It's very slow. I do like Nature Cleric for Shillelagh quite a bit, but then you're pretty much priced into starting with cleric and putting off extra attack or you won't be wisdom based until level 6.
You really don't need a greater focus on dex. Grab a 14 to pair with breast plate or half-plate (depending on whether you care about being sneaky or not) and you're set. You really can't use more than that effectively. You can use a 16 if you also grab medium armor master, but that's just hard to fit on the build. Any more than that and you're no longer a SAD build and are just a dex build with a side of wisdom.
Polearm Master's all day bonus action attack trumps War Priest hands down. Especially if you're going for Shillelagh since you can't use any other weapons besides a quarterstaff or club. The slightly higher damage doesn't compare to always having it available. Not unless you're really going for it with a heavy weapon or longbow. Not to mention to get the War Cleric bonus action attack you have to put off extra attack, or you're waiting until level 6. Variant Human or Custom Lineage has Polearm Master at level 1 to weaponize the bonus action forever, and hits extra attack on time at level 5.
Shillelagh doesn't scale like other cantrips, it scales with extra attack. So it's quite good on an extra attack class. I think you either depend on it and focus on wisdom, or drop it from the build and focus on a different stat.
Swarmkeeper is my favorite Ranger sub hands down, but it's the movement that really puts the juice in Gathered Swarm. If you're looking for a subclass purely for a damage boost then Fey Wanderer, Hunter and Gloomstalker better choices. I still highly recommend Swarmkeeper, but it's a tactical choice that's more adept at controlling the battlefield than piling on damage.
My thoughts on stats were to get 16 Wis & Dex out if the gate, a 13 Con (which I could bump up with Resilient down the road); medium armor master was a maybe.
I get PAM doesn't have resource restriction of uses, but 2.5 avg per hit seems less effective than 6.5 or 7 avg (glaive or greatsword. Even in Tier 1 with a 16 Wis, three uses is 19.5 avg which leads the PAM BA until the 8th hit.
As for Ranger subclasses having better damage increases, I don't see it. Swarmkeeper gets a d6. Monster slayer gets a d6 also, but costs a BA and is only one foe; Gloomstalker gets a d8, but only once per combat; Fry Wanderer is only a d4, but it is psychic.
Lastly, why is Shillelagh the "must" for a Wis based attacker? I thought the point of Druidic Warrior was to allow any weapon to be used, so as not to be dependent on bopping people with a magic stick? This allows use of magic weapons, hell even a spear to chuck if need be.
Druidic Warrior You learn two cantrips of your choice from the druid spell list. They count as ranger spells for you, and Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for them. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of these cantrips with another cantrip from the druid spell list.
All druidic warrior does is give you access to two druid cantrips. One of which can be Shillelagh. There are no other ways in 5E to make your weapon attacks based off of wisdom. Since quarterstaffs and clubs are the only legal targets for Shillelagh, they are the only weapons you can make wisdom-based.
Gloomstalker gets a d8 and an entire extra attack on the first turn. This is a huge damage boost even if it is only for one round. Fey Wanderer can add the d4 psychic to every attack they make as long as they target different creatures. And Hunter (not monster slayer) can either have the ability to add a d8 or the ability to make an extra attack against an enemy adjacent to someone they've already attacked. I think they all have more to add in terms of raw damage potential, but again, I think Swarmkeeper is excellent in general and for this build.
Your PAM vs. War Priest calculations are off. PAM is 5.5 average damage versus the 9.5 or 10 from the heavy weapons thanks to ability score modifiers. So it takes 6 PAM attacks to outpace in damage. But this also doesn't factor in miss chance, which has a much greater impact on the damage from War Priest than PAM.
You really don't need 16 dex. Medium armor + 14 dex is better AC than 16 dex and light armor. If you're going for a heavy weapon build then you can't have 16 dex, wis and str without completely sacrificing everything else, including con, and using vhuman to pick up a half-feat that boosts one of them (assuming point buy).
Druidic Warrior You learn two cantrips of your choice from the druid spell list. They count as ranger spells for you, and Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for them. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of these cantrips with another cantrip from the druid spell list.
All druidic warrior does is give you access to two druid cantrips. One of which can be Shillelagh. There are no other ways in 5E to make your weapon attacks based off of wisdom. Since quarterstaffs and clubs are the only legal targets for Shillelagh, they are the only weapons you can make wisdom-based.
Gloomstalker gets a d8 and an entire extra attack on the first turn. This is a huge damage boost even if it is only for one round. Fey Wanderer can add the d4 psychic to every attack they make as long as they target different creatures. And Hunter (not monster slayer) can either have the ability to add a d8 or the ability to make an extra attack against an enemy adjacent to someone they've already attacked. I think they all have more to add in terms of raw damage potential, but again, I think Swarmkeeper is excellent in general and for this build.
Your PAM vs. War Priest calculations are off. PAM is 5.5 average damage versus the 9.5 or 10 from the heavy weapons thanks to ability score modifiers. So it takes 6 PAM attacks to outpace in damage. But this also doesn't factor in miss chance, which has a much greater impact on the damage from War Priest than PAM.
You really don't need 16 dex. Medium armor + 14 dex is better AC than 16 dex and light armor. If you're going for a heavy weapon build then you can't have 16 dex, wis and str without completely sacrificing everything else, including con, and using vhuman to pick up a half-feat that boosts one of them (assuming point buy).
Druidic Warrior You learn two cantrips of your choice from the druid spell list. They count as ranger spells for you, and Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for them. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of these cantrips with another cantrip from the druid spell list.
All druidic warrior does is give you access to two druid cantrips. One of which can be Shillelagh. There are no other ways in 5E to make your weapon attacks based off of wisdom. Since quarterstaffs and clubs are the only legal targets for Shillelagh, they are the only weapons you can make wisdom-based.
Gloomstalker gets a d8 and an entire extra attack on the first turn. This is a huge damage boost even if it is only for one round. Fey Wanderer can add the d4 psychic to every attack they make as long as they target different creatures. And Hunter (not monster slayer) can either have the ability to add a d8 or the ability to make an extra attack against an enemy adjacent to someone they've already attacked. I think they all have more to add in terms of raw damage potential, but again, I think Swarmkeeper is excellent in general and for this build.
Your PAM vs. War Priest calculations are off. PAM is 5.5 average damage versus the 9.5 or 10 from the heavy weapons thanks to ability score modifiers. So it takes 6 PAM attacks to outpace in damage. But this also doesn't factor in miss chance, which has a much greater impact on the damage from War Priest than PAM.
You really don't need 16 dex. Medium armor + 14 dex is better AC than 16 dex and light armor. If you're going for a heavy weapon build then you can't have 16 dex, wis and str without completely sacrificing everything else, including con, and using vhuman to pick up a half-feat that boosts one of them (assuming point buy).
Yeah. PAM will serve better damage over the long haul than war priest. (1d4 + mod) as much as you can versus (1d10 + mod) 3 or 4 times per long rest. Also PAM adds many more AoO.
All ranger subclasses give extra bonus damage. Even the PHB ranger if you calculate added attacks of opportunity, which I think you should as it makes a difference. A few things make AoO "count more". A couple of maneuvers, a feat or two, a subclass. A wolf can knockdown on a AoO so pair that with a reach weapon and you have a "attack from reach + attack a prone target" combo that's quite fun. If you want to be in the mix, the hunter might do you better as they have several choices for both offensive and defense. Gloomstalker melee seems a little more difficult to proc than a ranged build.
I like to look at damage over 3 to 5 rounds. Area of effect spells, sustained damage builds, and AoO builds show better that way. Case in point is the hunter's mark with two weapon fighting. It looks bad at one round of combat, but over 3 rounds it makes great sense for a big boss target mathematically. Also the gloomstalker/hunter extra damage looks more even over 3-5 rounds. Over only 3 rounds, gloomstalker at 12 (1d8 + 3 + 1d8) extra damage versus hunter at 13.5 ((1d8)*3)) extra damage. Also the hunter can get the 1d8 on it's reaction as well, so if you are PAM hat is even more damage.
lol np Inguz. I'm dumb about a lot of things. A LOT
@Frank: Yeah I completely forgot to mention the OA's from PAM. Good point. I think it's a fair assumption you can trigger at least one per combat. I didn't realize that the Hunter's Colossus Slayer could be added. Not my favorite Ranger sub so I never really delved into the nitty gritty of it. That's a cool little interaction.
And definitely every Ranger sub adds damage in some way. I was just trying to point out that the Swarmkeeper is one of the weaker subclasses at boosting its damage, and has some very useful options vying for attention when using Gathered Swarm. Which I think is completely fine because Swarmkeeper is the shit.
Agreed that melee Gloomstalkers have a more awkward time making the most of their first turn, but the speed boost they also get does help quite a bit in that regard. And while their extra damage does lag over the course of a fight, there is a hidden advantage to being so good at producing mini-novas. When you can burst out damage like that you can more easily eliminate an enemy on the spot. Then they're dead and not producing damage or other dangerous effects. Classic defense via overwhelming offense.
I'm looking at making a wisdom based melee character. I don't like wild shape, so no moon druid suggestions, please. My thoughts are swirling around Ranger 2 for druidic Warrior and War Cleric, but not set on the sequencing and splits. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Is Nature Cleric out of question? Might simplify your way towards Shilleagh (or Primal Savagery) and remain as a single class.
1st level really depends on the saves you prefer (Ranger's Str/Dex or Cleric's Wis/Cha), though going with Ranger does sum you a whopping total of ONE extra HP in the end.😃
If you're going with Shillelagh, the Polearm Master feat is an option for you, since it grants the bonus action attack even if the quarterstaff is imbued by the spell and wielded single-handedly. Bonus Action economy might be a little weird on the first few rounds of combat (Shillelagh, the Polearm Master feat, Healing Word, etc.).
Since Cleric has much more interesting things to spend his Concentration on and you're not going Ranger 20 for Foe Slayer anyway, I'd advise against choosing Favored Foe over Favored Enemy (enjoy those extra Languages).
Edit: Another thing regarding 1st level choice is the Ranger's multiclass requirement of 13 Dex and Wis, which is not present if you go the other way (Ranger > Cleric, which only requires 13 Wis).Art Portfolio
That's not how multiclassing works. You need to meet the multiclassing requirements of every class you currently have and the new one to pick up a new one.
Yeah, that was painful. 🤣 I blame late night, lack of sleep and the other gimmicky builds I'm going through.
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I've done ranger and cleric before. I would like to point out "pay close attention to concentration." You are more likely to loose it due to a hit in melee than at range. Also you will want to balance out spell selection so you don't ever have to decide between cool spells because your already concentrating on something.
Was looking at War Cleric to use the BA attack, and ranger with martial weapon proficiency, I don't need the shillelagh. Had been thinking polearm or sword and board.
If I go cleric at 1 I have weaponized BA from the start, might not even go Ranger 5. Thinking of swarm keeper for the extra damage and frees up concentration from needing hunters mark.
Oh, you mentioned Wisdom-based and got me thinking on a Wisdom-based attack (Primal Savagery, Shillelagh). Though you're already getting martial weapons from the War Domain (if you're going with that), you don't need Ranger specifically for that.
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The goal of druidic Warrior was to get a little more utility and make the build SAD.
I think the Shillelagh Ranger/Cleric leads you down a somewhat narrow path because once you make some of the decisions for the build other decisions start to feel like the logical progression.
1. Using Ranger in the build means it feels weird not taking 5 levels. Gaining extra attack is one of the major draws to splicing a half-caster onto a full-caster.
2. It's awkward putting off extra attack, so once you sign up for making that a key part of the build, it makes sense to get it as soon as possible. This makes starting Ranger 5 very worthwhile.
3. Shillelagh means using a quarterstaff, which means Polearm Master feels like a weird feat to not pick up.
4. Once you take Polearm Master, War Cleric's War Priest ability is redundant and unnecessary.
5. Playing two classes that love concentration spells with a melee build incentivizes picking up ways to boost concentration checks. This means constitution save proficiency and/or war caster.
I think War Cleric would be better on a greatsword wielding strength ranger in medium armor with 14 dex and wisdom, where the bonus action attack is both unique, and more damaging.
You make good points here and some of these are exactly what I'm thinking.
1.This was my thought with War Cleric, I have the second attack option as soon as I take that class. Yes, it is limited to Wisdom modifier, but still effective.
2. Extra attack down the road will allow a third attack when paired with War Priest.
3. I don't want to be dependent on Shillelagh, it doesn't scale and I would be able to use better d8 options or even a d10 or d12 with martial proficiency.
4. Polearm master has a weaker attack that War Priest, so a versatile or two-handed would benefit and negate the absolute need for PAM.
5. Swarm keeper has the additional d6 damage that could replace Hunter's Mark, thereby freeing a concentration for Bless or Spirit Guardians, as the situation dictates.
Conceptionally, the Druidic Warrior makes the build more SAD than MAD. This would allow greater focus on Dex, the lack of PAM allows for War Caster, Resilient Con, or the oft used Elven Accuracy.
You really don't need a greater focus on dex. Grab a 14 to pair with breast plate or half-plate (depending on whether you care about being sneaky or not) and you're set. You really can't use more than that effectively. You can use a 16 if you also grab medium armor master, but that's just hard to fit on the build. Any more than that and you're no longer a SAD build and are just a dex build with a side of wisdom.
Polearm Master's all day bonus action attack trumps War Priest hands down. Especially if you're going for Shillelagh since you can't use any other weapons besides a quarterstaff or club. The slightly higher damage doesn't compare to always having it available. Not unless you're really going for it with a heavy weapon or longbow. Not to mention to get the War Cleric bonus action attack you have to put off extra attack, or you're waiting until level 6. Variant Human or Custom Lineage has Polearm Master at level 1 to weaponize the bonus action forever, and hits extra attack on time at level 5.
Shillelagh doesn't scale like other cantrips, it scales with extra attack. So it's quite good on an extra attack class. I think you either depend on it and focus on wisdom, or drop it from the build and focus on a different stat.
Swarmkeeper is my favorite Ranger sub hands down, but it's the movement that really puts the juice in Gathered Swarm. If you're looking for a subclass purely for a damage boost then Fey Wanderer, Hunter and Gloomstalker better choices. I still highly recommend Swarmkeeper, but it's a tactical choice that's more adept at controlling the battlefield than piling on damage.
Just throwing this out there, but spiritual weapon would weaponize your bonus action, keep the wisdom focus, not mess with concentration, and not interfere with level 5 ranger extra attack, which is a great idea, fun too! You'd only need 3 levels in any cleric to get. Are you using Tasha's? Spiritual weapon would allow you to use favored foe in conjunction. And this is all just attacking. Healing word and aid would really buff your support role by quite a lot. Hunter ranger/light cleric would make for a great melee+AoE PC.
Ranger X/Nature Cleric 3 allows for Spiritual Weapon casting to do better on a bonus than PAM. Nature Cleric grants access to Shillelagh without needing to take Druidic Warrior, so you could combine the Shillelagh with Dueling for improved damage or Defense for...well, improved defense. Nature cleric also grants heavy armor, so Dex can be defocused if Dex skills aren't required, as well as adding an additional ranger-y skill. The ESL is unfortunately weak and the Channel Divinity is not ideal, but there's a lot to be said for taking a spoonful of Nature cleric if the goal is a Wisdom-based melee ranger. Comes online later than I particularly care for, you're either rushing Ranger 5 for multiattack and losing access to Spiritual Weapon for heap long time, or you're mixing your multiclasses up and losing access to multiattack for a while.
The other alternative to a 'wisdom melee build' is straight ranger, using the Tasha's Cauldron Primal Beastmaster. The primal critter attacks using your ranger spell attack modifier, i.e. your Wisdom, which aligns with Shillelagh. Druidic Warrior (or Magic Initiate) become mandatory at that point, but the beast gives you an unusually powerful bonus action that runs off your Wisdom. Could be worth investigating - I've just started playing with a Primal Beastmaster, and the critter hits surprisingly hard at least at the low levels we're starting at.
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The progression of the Spiritual Weapon route is so painful. It's very slow. I do like Nature Cleric for Shillelagh quite a bit, but then you're pretty much priced into starting with cleric and putting off extra attack or you won't be wisdom based until level 6.
My thoughts on stats were to get 16 Wis & Dex out if the gate, a 13 Con (which I could bump up with Resilient down the road); medium armor master was a maybe.
I get PAM doesn't have resource restriction of uses, but 2.5 avg per hit seems less effective than 6.5 or 7 avg (glaive or greatsword. Even in Tier 1 with a 16 Wis, three uses is 19.5 avg which leads the PAM BA until the 8th hit.
As for Ranger subclasses having better damage increases, I don't see it. Swarmkeeper gets a d6. Monster slayer gets a d6 also, but costs a BA and is only one foe; Gloomstalker gets a d8, but only once per combat; Fry Wanderer is only a d4, but it is psychic.
Lastly, why is Shillelagh the "must" for a Wis based attacker? I thought the point of Druidic Warrior was to allow any weapon to be used, so as not to be dependent on bopping people with a magic stick? This allows use of magic weapons, hell even a spear to chuck if need be.
Am I just dense? What am I missing here?
All druidic warrior does is give you access to two druid cantrips. One of which can be Shillelagh. There are no other ways in 5E to make your weapon attacks based off of wisdom. Since quarterstaffs and clubs are the only legal targets for Shillelagh, they are the only weapons you can make wisdom-based.
Gloomstalker gets a d8 and an entire extra attack on the first turn. This is a huge damage boost even if it is only for one round. Fey Wanderer can add the d4 psychic to every attack they make as long as they target different creatures. And Hunter (not monster slayer) can either have the ability to add a d8 or the ability to make an extra attack against an enemy adjacent to someone they've already attacked. I think they all have more to add in terms of raw damage potential, but again, I think Swarmkeeper is excellent in general and for this build.
Your PAM vs. War Priest calculations are off. PAM is 5.5 average damage versus the 9.5 or 10 from the heavy weapons thanks to ability score modifiers. So it takes 6 PAM attacks to outpace in damage. But this also doesn't factor in miss chance, which has a much greater impact on the damage from War Priest than PAM.
You really don't need 16 dex. Medium armor + 14 dex is better AC than 16 dex and light armor. If you're going for a heavy weapon build then you can't have 16 dex, wis and str without completely sacrificing everything else, including con, and using vhuman to pick up a half-feat that boosts one of them (assuming point buy).
Thank you. I knew I was dumb on this.
Yeah. PAM will serve better damage over the long haul than war priest. (1d4 + mod) as much as you can versus (1d10 + mod) 3 or 4 times per long rest. Also PAM adds many more AoO.
All ranger subclasses give extra bonus damage. Even the PHB ranger if you calculate added attacks of opportunity, which I think you should as it makes a difference. A few things make AoO "count more". A couple of maneuvers, a feat or two, a subclass. A wolf can knockdown on a AoO so pair that with a reach weapon and you have a "attack from reach + attack a prone target" combo that's quite fun. If you want to be in the mix, the hunter might do you better as they have several choices for both offensive and defense. Gloomstalker melee seems a little more difficult to proc than a ranged build.
I like to look at damage over 3 to 5 rounds. Area of effect spells, sustained damage builds, and AoO builds show better that way. Case in point is the hunter's mark with two weapon fighting. It looks bad at one round of combat, but over 3 rounds it makes great sense for a big boss target mathematically. Also the gloomstalker/hunter extra damage looks more even over 3-5 rounds. Over only 3 rounds, gloomstalker at 12 (1d8 + 3 + 1d8) extra damage versus hunter at 13.5 ((1d8)*3)) extra damage. Also the hunter can get the 1d8 on it's reaction as well, so if you are PAM hat is even more damage.
lol np Inguz. I'm dumb about a lot of things. A LOT
@Frank: Yeah I completely forgot to mention the OA's from PAM. Good point. I think it's a fair assumption you can trigger at least one per combat. I didn't realize that the Hunter's Colossus Slayer could be added. Not my favorite Ranger sub so I never really delved into the nitty gritty of it. That's a cool little interaction.
And definitely every Ranger sub adds damage in some way. I was just trying to point out that the Swarmkeeper is one of the weaker subclasses at boosting its damage, and has some very useful options vying for attention when using Gathered Swarm. Which I think is completely fine because Swarmkeeper is the shit.
Agreed that melee Gloomstalkers have a more awkward time making the most of their first turn, but the speed boost they also get does help quite a bit in that regard. And while their extra damage does lag over the course of a fight, there is a hidden advantage to being so good at producing mini-novas. When you can burst out damage like that you can more easily eliminate an enemy on the spot. Then they're dead and not producing damage or other dangerous effects. Classic defense via overwhelming offense.
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